Howdy,
I am thinking of a little more heat in the back of Thomas. Mostly just to take the chill off in the AM without having to fire up the furnace or turn up the heat from same. Anybody have any experience with these units or similar ones? Cracking a window to help reduce condensation is not a problem, so that is not a factor. Any and all input is appreciated.
Doug Engel, Gunnison, CO
Hi Doug,
Seems to be a good unit! I would be carefull with the bed covers and pillows in the back of the bus..
Olympian Wave 6
3200-5800 BTU adjustable output
1/4 lb./hr. fuel consumption
230 square feet of heated comfort (approx.)
Size: 17 7/8" H x 12 13/16" W x 4" D
Weight: 12 lbs
Can be wall mounted vertically or horizontally
Can be mounted recessed with optional kit.
Good Luck
Nick-
I hoped for a moment this would be a question about a British Olympian bus.....oh well
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbstransit.com.sg%2Fimages%2Fabt_memory_volvob10tl2.jpg&hash=561e6ab62293230b58e5f69ad3cb72615612b7f6)
(Sorry - cannot help with the heater)
Jeremy
Doug,
We have an Olympian heater. It's not a Wave 6 but it looks almost identical to the one in the pic, probably just an older model. We have it mounted to the kitchen counter front facing the front of the bus. It is WONDERFUL!!!!!!
I can leave the furnace set on 60F at night to sleep & then light the heater in the morning. In about 8 minutes, everything is toasty. It's quiet, and we have had no trouble with condensation.
Try it! you'll Like it! ;D ;D
TOM
Doug,
I have friends that mounted them on the wall at the entrance door. That was in S&S coaches and they had the entrance in the middle of the coach. Worked really well in that location as it was a cold spot.
I have one concern that wasn't mentioned and when I broached the subject to a friend his wife turned theirs off and would not allow it to be used....period. These heaters use up oxegen. In a room where one is in use the O2 level is reduced. That puts a slight load on your heart. Not much if you are vented, but a little. The friend that quit using his had had two heart attacks but didn't understand the O2 problem associated with this heater. I know they shut off if the O2 level gets low but at that point even I, with all the wind I can generate, am a little breathless if I start moving around.
This is a selling point for propane furnaces.....INSTANT HEAT and a built in circulation fan.
FWIW,
John
Hi Doug,
After reading John's post, I would read more on this heater because I was under the assumption that
any UL listed vented and non vented catylest heaters as of 1996' were mandated to carry a oxygen depletion sensors.
Read, Read, Read,..... "CO, the Silent Killer"
Good Luck
Nick-
Hi,
I found this:
Platinum is the finest, longest lasting (and most expensive) catalytic agent known. This establishes a chemical reaction (combustion) resulting in the release of low intensity infra-red heat waves...operating at all times below the temperature necessary to support flame combustion. It is this combination without flame that produces low intensity infrared catalytic heat that warms like the sun. With catalytic heating, no heat is lost through a flue or chimney. While the catalytic heating process consumes oxygen, it produces no harmful amounts of waste gas (i.e. carbon monoxide). A total free-air opening of 4" x 6" should be provided to replace oxygen consumed by the heater and occupants. Normally, opening a small window and/or roof vent is adequate ventilation. Additionally, the operating surface of Olympian Catalytic Safety Heaters is a maximum of 720 degrees Fahrenheit, well below the ignition temperature of clothing, paper or other combustibles. Flame type heaters waste up to 45% of all heat produced. Catalytic heating is 99.98% efficient, resulting in a completely safe, more efficient and low-cost heat. The waste products from catalytic combustion are water vapor and carbon dioxide, in approximately equally amounts. The Wave-6 can easily be made portable with the optional leg stands or hung on the wall either horizontally or vertically. The Wave-6 is easily carried to any cold spot for quick heating. Like all other Olympian catalytic safety heaters, the Wave-6 comes with a three year guarantee, piezo electric starter and 100% safety shut-off valve. No Flue or Chimney Safe-Dependable Installs in minutes Penetrating Soft Infrared Heat No Noise No Fan or Blower Wave-6: BTU Output: 3200 to 6000 Fuel Consumption at maximum output: 1/4 lb. per hour Gas Connection: 3/8" SAE FlareTypical RV Size: up to 18' (The area heated depends greatly on insulation R-Factor and outside temperature) Room Area Heated: 230 square feet Ignition: Piezo Spark. Can be recessed
News to me.
Doug Engel, Gunnison, CO
Doug,
Great post. Really good mfr. data and i would guess it is all the gospel truth. I don't feel contradicted in the least. Should I?
No CO output should give everyone a "warm fuzzy feeling". (no pun intended)
Thanks,
John
I like radiant heat. I also dislike noise, so these heaters have their advantages. It is clear though that one needs to have a window cracked to avoid oxygen depletion. There was once another version of this type of heater available call the Platinum Cat. They are out of business. That one had a little vent tube and a mini fan to vent it. It also had a thermostat. I have one that I got on Craigslist but have not yet installed it. I have thought that it probably would not be that difficult to add a vent tube and fan to the Olympian if one wanted. Otherwise I think they are probably okay but maybe safest for use when awake. Although, they have been around for quite some time and I have never heard of any catastrophes. Since it has an auto shut off for low oxygen, it might also become less functional at high altitudes. I guess the manufacturer would know.
Hi Doug,
Good Research...
I would imagine that because it is manufactured fo the RV industry, that it's ok to Not to have an Oxygen Depletion Sensor ??
Heart stress and headachs are the first sign of low oxygen. Please be carefull..
Now, this brings up another question... Wouldn't having a window open cause loss of efficency? And a Draft? Is it UL listed?
Nick-
No contradiction to anyone, just sharing info. and thanks for all your input. Does an open window need a UL listing? D
...and all this time I thought the FP for paper was 411 degrees F. One of us is confused; the add writer or me.
Remember the movie "Fahrenheit 451" In the movie, some asked "why Fahrenheit 451?" Answer
"because that is the ignition temperature of paper". I think many common substances have ignition temperatures of less than 720 degrees.
It also says by-products are water vapor & CO2. Talk about condensation on the windows? Better get wipers (on the inside of the windows) Jack
Jack,
You got here before I could update my post. '451' is the correct number.
Thanks Lee, I made the correction in my post. Jack
"Fahrenheit 451" was a book before it was a movie. Kurt Vonnegurt (sp?) was the author maybe?
I read the book, didn't get to the movie.
Now we are officially off topic! ;D ;D
Ray Bradbury was the Author
And we stray from the topic path a bit further....
I've used two portable "Little Buddy" heaters from Camping World for the two years we've owned our 4104 and never had any of the condensation or oxygen or CO problems so often mentioned by the henny pennys on the board.
They will run at medium heat on a one lb LP bottle for about three hours. I got tired of this and rigged two 20 lb bottles in a rear bay with a hose going up through the floor, works great.
They make the bus nice and cozy and we never use more than one at a time.
Of course my bus is nowhere near air tight so I don't worry about CO; anyway, the heaters have a sensor for low oxygen which will make them shut off automatically. This feature also keeps them from operating at high altitudes but this is not a problem for us.
Red,
Its OK to contradict me any time you have the opportunity....really. Being wrong and found out has the silver lining that you learn about the fact....soooooo. Keep on keeping on and share on and argue on ;) ;D
happily,
John
I have used a ventless propane heater in both of my buses and the only dislike was the condensation. If only used as a weekend camping trip it will probably not be a problem but if used full time I see it being a real problem. The condensation starts on the windows and behind your walls and ceiling and may not show up for a week then you will notice water stains or drips so yes it does hurt your bus and can ruin your fabrics or wood work.
I wonder if a small heater like this would put out more moisture than, say, 45 passengers on a longish trip. Granted, when the compressor's on, the humidity will be controlled but not when just the heat is on. MCI had it's heat (and A/C) supply ducted to blow out across the windows. In winter, even non-dehumidified heated air will keep windows somewhat condensation-free.
This is not directly related to the Olympian heater, but I have a dehumidifier that's going to be installed in my bus. If humidity is an issue from a heater, I know it'll be a problem from cooking and showering. Running a 10K BTU ventless heater (blue flame type) and the dehumidifier might work fine when on limited power (20-30 amps) and it's cold enough that my heatpump isn't putting out much heat. Of course, there'll still need to be the fresh air supply.
David
You bring up a good question David. What percentage of propane is water? Just a guess, but i doubt it is more than a couple percent. The heaters don't make water, the moisture is only the portion of propane that can't be burned. My blue flame heater uses so little propane, that the moisture from the heater is not a problem. The moisture given off by two adults breathing is more of a problem. And of course cooking and showering put a lot of moisture into the air. I often wonder if unvented heaters really put out that much moisture. Perhaps it is just the lack of the drying effect from the vented furnaces that we are missing?
Ok, it is time for a chemistry lesson.
The chemical reaction for the oxidation of propane is as follows:
C3H8 + 5 O2 --> 3 CO2 + 4 H2O
If the process is 100% efficient the propane breaks down into CO2 and Water. As there is no such thing as 100% efficiency other chemicals such as CO are also released plus any other impurities that exist in your gas source. When you burn hydrocarbons (CnH2n+2) water is going to be a byproduct and you actually produce allot. 4 water molecules for every propane molecule consumed. The moisture is there so be prepared to deal with the issues that arise.
Also, do not forget that CO2 is every bit as deadly as CO. Please ventilate.
It just amazes me that people are not dropping like flies this holiday time of the year from using those unvented gas ovens with their huge burners cooking turkeys. Whether you use vented or unvented gas heaters, or electric heat; moisture is going to be a problem in the small area of a bus. What i would like to have is a 12v air to air heat exchanger so i could bring in fresh air - exhaust moist air - but keep most of my heat from going out the vent. Whaddya think Nick? Are you ready to go into production on this?
Quote from: buddydawg on December 21, 2007, 08:49:45 AM
Ok, it is time for a chemistry lesson.
The chemical reaction for the oxidation of propane is as follows:
C3H8 + 5 O2 --> 3 CO2 + 4 H2O
If the process is 100% efficient the propane breaks down into CO2 and Water. As there is no such thing as 100% efficiency other chemicals such as CO are also released plus any other impurities that exist in your gas source. When you burn hydrocarbons (CnH2n+2) water is going to be a byproduct and you actually produce allot. 4 water molecules for every propane molecule consumed. The moisture is there so be prepared to deal with the issues that arise.
Also, do not forget that CO2 is every bit as deadly as CO. Please ventilate.
The current threshold limit value (TLV) or maximum level of CO2, that is considered safe for healthy adults for an eight-hour work day is 0.5% (5,000 ppm).
The current threshold limit value (TLV) or maximum level of CO, that is considered safe for healthy adults long-term workplace exposure levels to 35 ppm.
I would say that carbon monoxide is much more deadly than carbon dioxide.
An open propane flame, is in ovens, produces very little CO. It is incomplete combustion, restricted air intake stoves, charcoal, engines, that produce CO and kills people.
I was once told that a rule of thumb was that "if a flame touches metal....CO will be the result in some quantity". Ovens would seem to fit that. The ceramic heaters get around any metal.
Granny used to have a gas heater in the LR that had ceramic perforated waffles in the front over the flame. That puppy would drive you out of the house with heat. Remember those 12 foot ceilings? They were supposed to be healthy. Maybe we needed that much air in the room back then and those houses were anything but hermetically sealed.
You guys have given me a great idea for my fireplace. I recently installed a gas line and valve.
Thanks,
John
I don't understand why you guys don't believe me when I say they pu out a considerable amount of moisture. I have personally experienced it.
I think different climates vary greatly as far as moisture and condensation goes. Back in Texas, condensation would roll down your tea glass. Here in Colorado, they never have any moisture on the glass. If the air is dry and there are only reasonable amouts of water released by the heater, it may never condense on the glass. Overall tightness of the vehicle is a big consideration as well. Thomas has lots of windows (read:air leaks) ans the humidity here is very low, the moisture released by the heater would most likely not be a problem. Thanks for all the input, lots of good info.
Doug Engel, Gunnsion, CO
Up here in BC Canada catalytic heaters are not permitted in RV's.We have approximately 20% oxygen in the atmosphere.At 18% you feel light headed and at 16% your are dead.The oxygen sensor can go out of calibration and lead to fatal results.Moisture is not the main concern.Check with your local gas codes.I have worked in the Gas industry for 32 years and would not put one in my coach.Safety before it works for me.
I can tell you that down here in humid Florida, if we run a small electric space heater to take away the chill there is very little condensation, but if we turn on the gas cooktop (to cook OR to heat) that water is running off the single pane windows. Jack
My blue flame ceramic heater also uses very little Propane. this is the third winter I have been trying to burn off everything in the tank so I can extend the fill valve to the outside body. and install a electric valve.
I open the roof vent and have very little smell in the bus, If closed I agree the windows etc... show a lot of moisture
But when it is minus 35 I enjoy the heat more when working in the bus...
The unit I have was made in Italy if memory serves me right.
I had always heard of the blue wall of death but don't believe it after using this for three winters I accept the unit. I likly would not go to bed with it on tho No use being dead right/ wrong :)
Hi Guy's,
It's not the humidity in your area that causes the excessive moisture. It's the LP gas it's self that has a very high content of water.
When burned, it let's off Carbon dixoide and Carbon Monoxide and and it is in a form of vapor.
Happy Holidays
Nick-
I would suspect that in a low humidity area, the moisture generated by the heater is quickly absorbed in the surrounding air, and that in a high humidity area, the air can not absorb any more moisture.
This is exactly the same as perspiration rapidly evaporating in the air in Arizona when the humidity is 10%. However in Florida your body stays wet for hours since the humidity is 90+% and the surrounding air is already saturated with moisture.
Richard
It looks like Platinum Cat is back in business. I have not checked on the cost, but I remember they were not cheap. Anyway, it is like the Olympian, but it is vented and has a thermostat. Check the link.
http://www.ventedcatheater.com/6.html
WOW :o
I share Charlie Davidson's amazement on this issue. High School Physics 101, and take this to the bank :-* When combustion takes place you create three things...1) HEAT 2) Carbon dioxide and maybe some monoxide 3) AND WATER I repeat AND WATER. Propane has no water content to speak of. If you burn charcoal you get what? Water is the correct answer. Gas or diesel engines have what in the exhaust? Answer= water. No exceptions, always generates water. If you start out with damp fuel you get more water. This is a scientific FACT.
Hope I wasn't to wishy washey on this, ;) ;D
John
Doug,
since the OLYMPIAN Wave 6 is so much more expensive why not buy one of the portable $80 Buddy heaters to see how you like it and what the condensation results are? It can be used just about anywhere if you decide to go with the OLYMPIAN Wave 6 later on.
I think you'll be surprised at how much heat the Buddy produces and how little moisture it produces.
If I remember correctly a propane guy in Union City, Tn. told me that propane produces 4 Gallons of water to every gallon of propane. This sounds obsured and I could be wrong in quoting him. Think I will research the facts. But I know I had way too much water in my bus to feel comfortable about what damage it was doing.
After some research I found that 1 gallon of propane = 1.64 pounds of water which = about 1/2 liter of water. Would you pour or throw a 1/2 liter of water in your finished interior? The little Buddy (which I had and returned) only holds a small propane bottle the same as a propane tourch so it "SEAMS" to not put out any condensation but in reality it does.
It is easier to go by weight for calculating the reaction of gases because volume is arbitrary. The ratio is approximately 1 lb of water produced for every 2.45 lbs of propane used. One gallon of water weighs around 8.33 lbs. I am not saying not to use the heaters, just be aware of moisture issues due to excessive use, especially in more humid climates.
And dats dat!
I slept through science class to be more alert in shop, so all this is news ans very interesting to me. Reference going with a portable unit, I'm kinda a overboard guy and I really dislike more stuff that I have to secure during driving. Now is no time to start paying attention to the cost of this project, it might start a trend that my wife would pick up and run with (although if she hasn't by now, I really don't have to worry about it).
I do wonder a little about the radiant heat deal. it is my understanding that radiant heat heats the objects in a room while most other types heat the air in a room. Sounds like these units work well, but I've never been around one.
The moisture output is a definite consideration, but like I said, in our dry climate, it seems to dissapate before it becomes evident. It was plenty chilly on our Thanksgiving trip to Moab and we had 5 adults in the bus. Even while cooking the dinner, the windows were clear.
Doug