We've decided propane is going to be a must-have and plan to stay with the handy portable 20lb. tanks. What are the options for mounting for an MC9?
I've considered:
- One of the bays. Problems: need to isolate, ventilate; wastes storage/utility space.
- Right rear side engine door. Problems: engine heat, long gas line to stove/furnace.
- Front left access panel (under driver, by the WW fluid). Long gas line; collision hazard?
- Outside rear, hanging off an engine door. (Just kidding!)
Maybe these options aren't even legal ones. I haven't looked at any codes yet. What have others done?
Don
Personally, I don't like removeable tanks. I have a single 100lb chassis mounted tank. And with only my stove and furnace being powered by propane, I only have to refill the tank once a year. Then too I have an electric solenoid valve that I can turn the propane on and off from inside, and also have a gauge wired in so no surprises. Good Luck, TomC
Personally I don't like permanently mounted tanks. My S&S had one and I found it very inconvenient. I was in a park 2 months and had to unhook put everything away, just to get a little LP. After that experience I purchased an "extend a stay" setup. Also look at some of the LP filling stations in your area and decide if you want to try to get in one with a 40 foot bus and a toad!!!!
On my 5C I changed to group 31 batteries and moved them to the engine compartment. The original battery area is a perfect fit for 2 30 lb tanks.
HTH Jim
We went with 2 20# portable tanks installed in what was the bus battery compartment (this compartment also holds a 3rd LP tank for use with our turkey fryer or grill). We relocated the bus batteries to the engine compartment, passenger side. The only thing we use that is propane powered inside the bus is our 3 burner cooktop. The compartment is large enough that we could have used 30# or probably even 40# tanks, but felt that would be overkill for 1 three burner cooktop. We go well over a year before needing to fill a tank. Our system has an automatic changeover valve on the regulator that switched when the first tank runs out and a red indicator shows that it has switched. I just have to remember to occasionally LOOK at the indicator (don't ask why I mentioned this) LOL. it is easy to take a tank to get it filled without breaking camp.
Downside to our system is, I have been told, with 3 ranks, we are not allowed in tunnels such as the Chesapeake Bay Bridge/Tunnel. Only wrong choice is if it does not work for you and your way of using your bus. Jack
We have two 40# tanks mounted in one bay on passenger side. I wanted the capability of filling an empty without moving the coach. Could have gotten by with smaller, but got such a good deal on these I couldn't pass up. Of course the larger the tank, the heavier it is when lifting in and out. The only propane we will use is refer., cooktop and possibly a heater for backup, and of course outside grilling is a must. Our appliances are directly over the tanks so my supply lines will be short to the manifold.
I removed the large 110lb tank because, number one, it was in my gen set/battery compartment, just didn't seem like a good place to have gas :(. Two, it was hard to do maintainance on the large tank. When I did remove it, it was in pretty bad shape. I installed two 40's (is that the 3ft tall one's ?) in the front diver side bay, rear wall. They fit like a glove. I use to cargo straps to secure them. The problem is when the inside one is empty, it is a little of a pain to remove. I like the duel tanks for the easy of throwing in the car to refill.
However, if I was doing it again, I would purchase two of the forklift type tanks that lay down. Lay them down side by side, build a shelf or storage over them.
By the way, I ordered both tanks off the internet, even with shipping they were cheaper than I could find anywhere else.
Good Luck,
Bill
Now in Tampa for the Holidays, Bus less.. ::)
Not to hyjack this thread, but along with wondering where the best place is to mount them, what IS the law on going thru tunnels? Can a single 30# tank go thru?
I just have mine mounted in the rear bay next to the water tanks. That makes it the closest run for what I use propane for. I believe that is pretty important also. I use aluminum forklift tanks.
Chaz
I agree with 99% of what everyone else said. I have a setup like TomC except that I used two 40# tanks whcih sit in my tank bay. The reasons I used to make this determination were primarily convenience for filling. I use an automatic changeover regulator, so when one is empty, I can remove it and take it in the toad to be filled while the other tank is still in place. Also, I can remove a tank while camping and use it in the screen tent for cooking with my camp grill. Can't do that with a permanent tank, although you could put on a long hose, which I've also done. The final reason I chose removable tanks is because the propane company where I get my tanks filled has a sign on their door that says they cannot fill permanent mounted tanks due to insurance reasons. Don't know if this is prevalent, but it would be a huge hassle to me to have to break camp just to refill the propane tank.
I've heard that one should not mount the propane tanks forward of the steering axle, or aft of the rear axle do to potential damage from head-on or rear-end collisions. This pretty much leaves the bays, battery compartment, or condensor compartment on a typical MCI bus. All are good locations, but you have to look at your needs regarding other equipment and storage requirements and make a determination that works for you.
Do your hookup right, though. I highly recommend you purchase the electric solenoid valve and lp detector, along with an automatic changeover regulator. Makes life easy.
Hi Lyndon,
We have an MC-9.
We mounted the 100# tank in the Battery compartment when we moved the batts to the engine area.
The old batt area is already ventilated so the propane was a natural for that space.
We fill the tank about once a year, so refilling is not a problem.
The 3 burner cook top, oven and the refer is run by the gas.
At Q a few years ago we had a 25 ft propane hose made so we can BBQ outside.
Hope this helps
Frank
Hi All;
Speaking of propane, has anyone mounted propane
tanks in the battery compartment on a MC-7? I have
seen this done on 8's and 9's, but not on a MC-7.
Thanks, Merle.
Wow, thank you all for the great responses. TomC, I like the idea of a chassis mount and would have considered it, but for the two reasons -- mentioned by others -- that I wanted the option to fill without moving the bus and we make a lot of use of a portable stove at campsites (as well as a mantle lamp atop a distribution tree).
Moving the batteries was not a option that even crossed my mind, but now you've all got me thinking. Batteries nearer the engine mean a shorter cable to the starter, at the same time as keeping the stove line shorter. This make a lot of sense. Now, back to the drawing board...
Don
Like Tom C, I have a chassis mounted LP tank. But since I power an RV500 water heater, two burner cooktop, and 5.5kw Onan generator with LP fuel, I opted for a bit larger LP tank than most...86 gallon total capcity, or 365 lbs.
Most propane distributors will bring a bobtail to your location, and fill your tanks if you need some gas while in a campground.
It's working for me.
Jay
87 SaftLiner
Had a nice lady at my last command that had a S&S. She and her husband went to the desert east of SD a lot and dry camped. Her husband mounted a couple of tanks to the front bumper because they were spending too much time running into town 20 miles to refill there two small OE tanks. He didn't want to try to mount them inside or under due to the fire hazard. O the road to Glamath they rounded a bend and took a Jeep with 5 drunk kids in it head on. Drove the tanks into the front end and exploded them. She and her husband died in the crash. The kids were ejected from the Jeep and received only minor injuries. KEEP THE TANKS OUT OF IMPACT CRUSH ZONES.
I don't even like the idea of them mounted in the battery compartment as it is right under the skin on the side. TomC makes the most sense with a permanent tank in a bay but I hope it is in the center of the bay against the front bulkhead. Wherever, it should have a good seal on the top to keep the gas out of the coach in the event it is ruptured. I will have propane in any coach I own but the stuff is scary dangerous if you don't do it right and build in the precautions/safeguards.
The comment about the length of the gas run/pipe being "too long" is bogus. Doesn't matter. Gas goes thru a pipe real easy like, Partner. Look at how long those pipes are that come down from Alaska and Canada.
With the tank buried in the center of the center compartment you can plumb and valve to have the fill port at the side in a protected location like high up under the coach floor and in a couple feet. It was done that way on a friends Vogue.
SAFTY....your TANK VENT MUST EXIT IN THE REAR OF THE COACH above 6 feet from the ground. I heard that a few years ago and thought it was bogus but it was true. I don't know the hows or whys or wherefores. Seems a good idea though as a freshly filled tank can "puke" a lot of gas when it warms up and a 100 gallon tank....well! I would opt for a tank of that size and I agree with Tom.
John
Just for kicks...would everyone that has posted an answer please state how you have your propane tanks vented.
Propane when it escapes, goes down to the ground. (When there is a propane leak in an unvented boat the propane settles in the bilge, then a spark from something, usually a switch of some sort, ignites it and the boat usually explodes into smithereens!) That being said, I am hoping that all of you have vents under the tank so if there is a leak it goes down to the ground so it can can disipate? You should actually have what the boats have...a "propane locker" in which the propane tank(s) are sealed off from everthing else...AND a means for the propane (In the event of a leak) can go DOWN to the ground where it disipates.
The plan for my bus is to have two tanks at the right rear bulkhead in the last bay, which are encased in basically a 'box' with a door that provides access to them when I open the bay door, and holes cut into the floor so propane can disipate down. (Not a lot of holes, or for that matter big holes, just enough for propane fumes to escape down to the ground.)
What you don't want is to have a propane leak in you bays not be able to escape, build up, then a switch get flipped automatically, (Or on purpose) and your bus explodes.
I am making this a separate thread, just in case some folk's are not reading this one.
Jack Hart
PD4501-945
QuoteThe comment about the length of the gas run/pipe being "too long" is bogus. Doesn't matter. Gas goes thru a pipe real easy like, Partner. Look at how long those pipes are that come down from Alaska and Canada.
Sorry buddy......... But the idea of a long gas line is that there is just more opportunity for a rupture in it somewhere along the line. Longer the line, more the opportuity. Be it a wear point, or something hitting it, etc.It has nothing to do with a pipeline professionally welded from Alsaka. By the way, I've heard of an occasional issue on the pipeline not long ago because of lack of maintenance. And that would also be an issue here. Some people may think that it's not that big of a deal, but we're talking safety here. Visual maintenance is a good idea.
I personally think the best place is a vented bay towards the back, but hey, there are others who may have different opinions. Between the front and rear axle away from the front where people are more likely to be would be mine.
My .02
Chaz
I have my chassis mounted 100# propane tank mounted under my transit bus with nothing under it. So venting is a givin. I know this is acceptable since vertually every propane powered car I see also has nothing under the bare tank.
I have never heard of having to vent your propane tank up 6 ft from the ground. Since propane is heavier than air-what's the reasoning? Good Luck, TomC
Hi Tom, you said; "Since propane is heavier than air-what's the reasoning?"
That is exactly why it needs to be vented; because propane is heavier that air...if there is a leak...the propane will go down...if it has no escape...it builds up in the bays..then a spark can ignite it. That is why it needs to escape down to the gound...that way it usually dissipates and is no problem.
In a bus with the bay doors closed I could imagine an explosion could send the bay doors straight out a half mile to a mile.
Jack
Jack,
The question is, why does it need to be vented 6' UP? I think Tom is very aware it will settle to the bottom and if the vent is so far up, how can it do any good?? I am wondering the same thing.
Chaz
Hi Chaz...I don't know about the 6' up thing...all I know is that the propane is heavier than air and will go down.
Can someone 'edgumacate me on the 6' thing?
I hope nobody makes me drag out the propane regulations, as I recall it is a big big book! ;D
Jack
My guess is the 6 ft is for the overfil/overpressure vent???? Not an issue with portable tanks.
I also have a quick disconnect and 20 foot hose for the grill and 2 burner cooktop, I do not like to cook fish or greasy foods inside.
To have the LP truck fill my 30lb tank at this campground in FL it costs $24. Down the street it costs $18. Now I know you rich guys are saying I would not haul my tank around for a mere $6. But for us senior citizens on fixed incomes its a big deal. Besides I'm cheap and proud of it!!
Chaz,
Amigo...The main pipe in my Winnie is a "Black Iron Gas Pipe" that is related to military armour. My tanks connect to it and the appliances have a separate connection each. It is located outside and up inside the frame rails above the drive shaft. That is the ONLY pipe I would use to run gas down a bus. Every device and length of pipe is a failure point and with gas all failure points are "critical failure" points. An extra ten feet of black iron isn't much of a bump in the failure direction unless you are taking mortar fire.
As I understood it: the venting of the "overfill" burp valve to the tank space would mean that that large quantity of gas was being deposited directly under the vehicle. It makes sense to me that i would want to avoid that situation. I surmise that the 6 foot rule was so that the gas would disperse more rapidly as it "fell" to the ground. Also, it would interupt the trail of gas back to the PROPANE COMPARTMENT. Now I swear to you that I am not making this up and it IS NOT MY LIE. I read it and it was supposed to have come out of the "book". At the time it was noted that none of the highlines with permanent tanks followed this "rule". Now if some yutz overfilled my 100 gallon propane tank by a couple gallons it might take a day for that to pop off from warming. I DO NOT WANT 2 GALLONS of propane in my locker regardless of how many holes I have in the floor and I also do not want that UNDER MY BUS or leaving a trail back to the point of origin(me and mine). There is no class of fire extinguisher that puts out 2 gallons of propane till that stuff is good and ready to be put out. The pressure relieve valve has a screw on defuser and I will run that to the exterior of the bus....probably 6 ft high at the rear. Color me superstitious, anal retentive or peculiar......1/4 inch copper tubing????? gahwan!
This was fun, Drag out the regs Jack...please
John
QuoteColor me superstitious, anal retentive or peculiar......1/4 inch copper tubing?? gahwan!
Whatever.
I'm curious... has anybody owned, or even seen, a S&S motorhome that has the built-in tank's overfill valve vented 6' up and at the rear? The ones I've seen have the tank strapped underneath, open to the ground, with an access door to the fill port, regulator, level gauge, etc.
David
In my experience with propane, whenever you have uncontrolled ignition of a leak, the combustion of the propane is over by the time you notice what caused the ringing in your ears. All that is left is to put out the burning combustables of the aftermath & pick up the pieces.
Propane must be mixed with air in the right ratio in order to burn. If it is too rich, it will only burn at the boundary where it can get enough air. If it is too lean, it just won't burn.
My guess about the 6' rule has to do with 'normal' venting & allowing it to go lean enough before it puddles to minimize the danger.
Concerning the long run's of gas line in a coach - There is a good reason the code requires exposed black iron for the main run. do you think it might be because it is tough enough to tolerate most abuse & so inspections can be made to ensure the integrity of the system.
Yes, propane can be dangerous - just like any stored energy. If it is handled properly, the benefits outweigh the risks.
BTW, I've known more people to be hurt by compressed air than propane. ANY stored energy can bite if you get careless.
David, I am pretty sure it has to do with the size of the tank. I know the 100's have to be vented like that, (I think, there's that word again...think...! I am trying to find the regulations, I know they are here somewhere, I moved in May after getting married, still sorting it all out!
Like I said, I intend on going to the regulations and will post what I learn.
The reason I jumped in here is that on one of the sailboat forums I post on there were two reports of boats being blown to smithereens this year due to propane leaks that settles in the bildge, a switch was thrown and it was horrible!
Here is a link to one of them.
http://archives.sailboatowners.com/pviewarch.htm?fno=60&sku=2007221055435.41&id=490589&ptl=Terrible%20Accident&id=490589
As I recall they later reported this man died a week later.
On the other on a group of schoolgirls had gotten off the boat a few minutes prior...can you imagine!?
Jack Hart
An interesting idea I saw on an MCI 9 was one or 2 20lb's in the old air conditioning condenser bay. Since the door is almost entirely screen and there are already vents out for the old blower, it seems like an easy way to go. He had his genset in the first bay on the drivers side and also drew air in for the radiator through the ac compartment past the tanks using a wood shroud to direct the air. I am likely to do the same.
Kyle,
Good points all.
Jack,
Please post the results of your quest. I don't think anybody ever said a portable tank had to be special vented....only those big stationary ones, as you said.
Thanks,
John
I have seen natural gas buses with the over pressure blow off-looks like a small exhaust pipe-coming out of the roof at the rear. But I haven't read or heard about that being needed for propane. Good Luck, TomC
TomC,
Boogiethecat has a post reply titled "are your propane tanks vented". In that post it mentions that LNG, being lighter than air, is vented at the "top" rear corner of the bus. Propane is vented in the rear but not so high as I take their discusion. Again, I think this only applies to fixed tanks, mounted inside the bus and of a specified "larger than" size. Again the comment was made "you don't want a large quantity of fumes POOLING under your bus. Hope jack finds the reg.
sincerely,
John
Not sure about the venting regs, but natural gas is lighter then air and will rise, LP is heavier than air and will settle. That is why we (the Fire Department ) were always more concerned about propane leaks as the propane would pool in low areas and no way to contain it. Natural gas would rise into the air and dilute itself. Jack
I haven't gotten to this part of my conversion as yet but was wondering if it would be advisible to put one of those gas sensing sensor's in your LP storage locker that should be loud enough to let you know a problem exists?? But then again, can this be a dangerous situation as I believe the sensor is electrically controlled?? Maybe some tips on what we can really do to have a sensor that we can depend upon for this dangerous situation if it occurs. Maybe our pet Canary can have his cage there?? If he keels over we got problems?? ONLY kidding here!!
A lot of food for thought here and I guarantee you I will think a lot when I get to this point. But I will also download all this information to refer to and hopefully more will trickle in we can consider.
Thanks Lyndon for this very important thread.
Gary
Quote from: Gary LaBombard on December 23, 2007, 10:01:16 AM
But then again, can this be a dangerous situation as I believe the sensor is electrically controlled?? Maybe some tips on what we can really do to have a sensor that we can depend upon for this dangerous situation if it occurs. Maybe our pet Canary can have his cage there?? If he keels over we got problems??
Thanks Lyndon for this very important thread.
Gary
Gary, if you use the canary approach, tie a string to his foot, then run it up through the floor into the coach. Attach it to a small bell and when the bell quits ringing, you know you have a problem! ;D
Sorry, I tried to stop myself but I have very little will power.... and even less won't power! :D
Dallas
Keep the alarm/sensor in the coach and mounted LOW and not under the stove. Follow the instructions. I can easily imagine that 99% of the propane problems are inside the coach. A "problem" being somebody "died" or the coach now looks like a motorized "flat bed trailer".
I got one in my bedroom and i am considering putting one in the compartment with a remote alarm in the coach AND outside.
John
I'd also recommend a carbon monoxide sensor mounted near and a the same level as your heads when you sleep. Propane you can smell but CO you can't, and if your heater gets a problem it's easy to get dead... I have CO sensors but no propane sensors yet... my personal order of perceived importance...
Quote from: boogiethecat on December 23, 2007, 02:47:41 PM
I'd also recommend a carbon monoxide sensor mounted near and a the same level as your heads when you sleep. Propane you can smell but CO you can't, and if your heater gets a problem it's easy to get dead... I have CO sensors but no propane sensors yet... my personal order of perceived importance...
One issue I found with CO detectors is not everyone will be woken by them. My bus currently has no heat and someone brought a non-vented propane heater. I didn't like it, but someone left the heater on one night and the CO detector went off about 3 am. Only three out of the seven people sleeping even woke up. Those of us awake did immediately shut off the heater and open windows.
Quote from: belfert on December 23, 2007, 05:14:05 PM
One issue I found with CO detectors is not everyone will be woken by them.
Isn't it the same with smoke detectors? Put one in each sleeping area to make sure that everybody will wake up. There's nothing that says one can't have CO and smoke detectors in the bedroom and front area of the coach (and bunk area, if applicable). I would think that there wouldn't need to be an LP detector in the bedroom, unless there is a gas appliance there. Some of these detectors will shut off the LP supply if they sense LP.
Quote from: DavidInWilmNC on December 23, 2007, 06:05:04 PM
Quote from: belfert on December 23, 2007, 05:14:05 PM
One issue I found with CO detectors is not everyone will be woken by them.
Isn't it the same with smoke detectors? Put one in each sleeping area to make sure that everybody will wake up. There's nothing that says one can't have CO and smoke detectors in the bedroom and front area of the coach (and bunk area, if applicable). I would think that there wouldn't need to be an LP detector in the bedroom, unless there is a gas appliance there. Some of these detectors will shut off the LP supply if they sense LP.
The CO detector is in the sleeping area, yet not everyone woke up.
I have not had previous experience with smoke or co alarms going off while sleeping so nothing to compare to. At home I have combination CO/smoke alarms that have both alarm and voice announcing fire or carbon monoxide.
Boogie,
I have both and I got the CO sensor first.
Mine are loud. I also have connections for a remote alarm that will also drive a small 30 amp relay. When i am done NO ONE WILL SLEEP for at least an hour after this puppy goes of from the adrenilin rush. Even my neighbors might be concerned...for their own safty.
Oh well, dream on.
John
Is it safe to put propane tanks in the compartment with house batteries, inverter, power distro/ breaker box?
Sorry for not being High Tec but , we built a wooden cabinet in one of the bays caulked it tight, put 2 2in holes in floor close door and Whala!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 propane gas sinks thats why you mut have the floor vented, we also use 20lb tanks, because we can replace them on every corner or walmart in the country, also carry another 20lb for our grill, Becomes a emergency replacement if we need it, Some tunnels allow, as long as you turn the propane off some tunnels will not allow any propane, The all have propane sniffers and can tell if you pass them and have propane. even if it is turned off, check your route call ahead for tunnel info,
mounted in the passenger rear bay next to the tunnel. Vented to the floor. Sensor all over the bus (inside and out) No propane heater. Electric heater and 7 inches of insulation! Cools and heats in 15 minutes or less.
Grant
eugene john is right about mounting sensors. and it is very easy to buy the $5. automotive relays and have a loud horn attached. I buy a couple dozen at a time for the equipment and street rods i work on. I don't have enough of them but they are needed in both ends of the bus, and the compartments. and i think you could easily wire several to one horn in the bus instead of having multiple ones..
If one doesn't make a metal division for the propane tank (s) in the compartment, or wherever, i think a plywood wall would be adequate if built to seal from the other areas, and of course proper ventilation.
I have been using small tanks in my compartment, but just got a 120 lb which should last around 3 months at my current use. Also keep a 7 gal one for a spare. Now i just gotta get out in the rain and get to work...
There are propane restrictions on the lower levels of the NY bridges and the tunnels under the Hudson. Propane is also prohibited in the two Baltimore Tunnels (Fort McHenry and Baltimore Harbor). At Baltimore you can take the I-695 beltway either direction to get as an alternate. Westbound takes you through rolling hills and Eastbound takes you over the Francis Scott Key Bridge
Pennsysvania TP:
If you are hauling propane and the weight is 100 pounds or under, you are safe to travel without restriction. If, however, you are carrying over 100 pounds of ...
many Federal Dams and tunnels and bridges have restrictions.
The biggest pile of propane bottles I ever saw was at Hoover Dam....
We have a 68Lb. frame mount tank with open & close solenoid. I installed a tee in the line in my wet bay up against the back bulkhead where it is located. Off the tee I ran 2 shutoff ball valves. Off 1, I ran to the floor and through with 1/2" Black Iron pipe into each area ( range-Stove, Refrig, Heater) needed and put another Ball valve within safety shutoff reach on the end with gas 3/8" flex line to each appliance.
Second off the other part of the Tee I ran black iron 1/2" hard pipe down through the bay floor to an elbow and short pipe to where I can attach my hose with regulator for and when we need a gas bottle attached like now we have a 100lb one hooked up while we are fulltiming It costs us 30 deposit and 90.00 a bottle from the local gas company. You can do the same thing with a 20lber or whatever size you need. Or you can bring one with you and when out just disconnect and go exchange or have filled and you are good to go again. If we go on the road I disconnect 1, 3/8" flare fitting and put a plug in it and switch off that line and open up the other line to on board tank and off we go.
It is vented on the bottom with 3 screened 2"x 20" holes in bay floor.
I put the letters "LPG" in 1" white contrasting stick on style for California rules and so people like Jack and other emergency services can avoid or get to fast and know where the Propane is for their safety.
Also In California (please check in your state) you can not use Copper lines as propane supplies, because they have found that they corrode because of the mercaptan which they put in as a safety smell chemical so you know when there is a leak. Also need to use flex lines to the appliances that are about the floor line.
Dave
hi Don when I built my 102c3 in 2005 in Ontario Canada I had to use 2@ 30 lbs tanks because the Rv propane code was lighter then permanent mounted tanks and easer to fill 1 at a time. at the time in order to convert bus to a rv on my vehlicle onwership and to get insurance .rv was inspected by tssa ( nat.gas,propane gov. inspection ),and appraised by a lic.appraisal service. I installed the 2 tanks on a set of rollers in a sealed box vented at top with 2@ 3" ss vents to outside in 1st bay door and vent through floor of box to below bus. attached to box was a separate box with a auto switch over reg. and a main shut off .reg was vented through the bus floor . all lines were 3/8 yellow propane line with T's run up through floor from basement to EACH appl. fr,cook top, water heater , 12,000 btu furance. bus has in floor pex heat off motor or pro heat. installed the 12,000 btu fur. for added heat when boon docking in 2009. on the regulator at the shut off is a tag from tssa with date, specs,techs name, lic no.which can not be removed . hope this helps as it had to be done for dot,insurance Dave