help, the park brake doesn't want to release. 120psi on both tanks, brakes sound like they release but i pushed the button in, stepped down on the pedal and the brake light stays on, bus doesn't move. i can hear the tranny changing from forward to revers ok. just doesn't move. >:( >:(
i can't believe my Eagle doesn't want to fly this coop and get warm, but she is sittin still. :o
any suggestions on where to light a fire under her. this happed once before, but released after a few minutes (10??) of putting it in reverse, forward and trying the pedal again. Suddenly the light went out and all was right movin on down the road again. :-[
i "assumed" the cold (22 deg f) just froze up something like a valve and it would warm up and work once the engine and heater started up. but no luck this time.
frozen air line?
or the rusticles have taken root in the ground letting the old bird go back to the Earth...LOL
finding a bit of moisture in an air system is very hard.
suggest going to a truck place and getting some air line alcohol and start feeding it in until she melts
Tom,
I am NO expert on cold weather problems, but one possibility is that moisture in your air system has your brakes frozen in the park position.
Do you have a blower type heater that you could aim to provide a little warmth to the brake cans, relay valve?
Cliff
In relatively warm Florida
Doug,
I think you have a better and more experienced answer!
How would one insert the alcohol in the system, if your air setup didn't have a Northern conditioned system?
Cliff
where do you pour alchohol into for air lines? i usually only pour it in one hole and only when i'm not gonna be driving.
the actual brakes on each wheel seem to be releasing, sounds like. i figured a switch somewhere since the light was staying on. like in the spare tire bay behind the bumper?? it's bound to be cold there.
Hi Tom,
Have you tried stomping the brake peddel all the way to the floor?
That usually releases the stuck patients...
Good Luck
And have a safe trip
Nick-
nick,
practically thru the floor, five or six times. put it in reverse, add a little accelerator, then slow, put it in drive. even tried to startle it by blowing the horn. no luck >:(
i'm thinking tomorrow's 38 deg later in the day may work to at least get it movin again. i don't want to work on it until i get to cliff's place or thereabouts. where it's warm.
guess i better read up on where to let the water out.
wonder if this had anythign to do with removing the air conditioner system. i didn't have this problem last year, but then it was inside until we left for florida last year.
Tom,
Start the bus, air it up, release the parking brake by pushing in the knob, then make a firm brake application and hold it for 8-10 seconds. It could be that your bus is froze to the ground or ice in an airline. I told ya'll ya should come down here earlier. Jack
Alcohol goes into the intake side of the compressor IIRC?
Besides the FULL brake application. Be sure the system is at Full air ( compressor cycles off) sometimes they like to be at or above the preasure they were set at to release
But if you have not had issues before I'd still say frozen air line
Chock the bus before you release the park brake and get out to see what's happening. The brakes may release at any time and .....that would be bad!
If the park brake light is still lit, the brakes aren't releasing. If the dash park brake light is going out when you release the brakes (and brake lights) the brake chambers are probably releasing....maybe. But the shoes may not release from the drums even though the slacks move the cams off.
You can look under the coach and see the slacks. If they are moving, the chambers are releasing. Check both sides. If the slacks don't move, something has water in it and is frozen. Once you get it going, drain all the tanks (5 tanks and compressor drain?) and see if you get any water.
Was it raining when you last parked the bus? If so, the shoes may be frozen or rusted to the drums. If you have a kerosene floor heater, set it under the rear of the bus aimed at the brake drums on the drive axle. Warming the spare tire compartment may also help...there are brake valves in there. And, just in front of the drive axle.
Don't set the bus on fire... :o
How long has the bus been sitting since last moved? Drums may stick pretty quickly in rainy weather if the bus is stored outdoors. They'll freeze overnight if parked wet and cool.
Good luck! Hope the weather warms up a little.
You know, for the life of me, I cannot see why we are so concerned about global warming. I'd give up a little of Manhattan island anytime (easy for me ;) so I could grow palm trees in my yard!
Best, JR
Here in Idaho, frozen brakes are common. First action, go to get a couple bottles of regular rubbing alcohol.
Remove air line from air compressor discharge. Pour into airline about a pint, one bottle. Reconnect air line. Start bus and open air bleeders at the air storage tanks, one then another. Try to release brakes. If no success, repeat alcohol into air line. Some times the release will require 4 bottles. Rubbing alcohol about $1, air brake alcohol, about $6. Same same. In some rare cases, the brake shoes have frozen to the drums.
A big propane torch or heating tip with acetylene/oxygen welding will warm the drums to release grip. If the brakes are a little freed, the bus can be rocked front and rear. The omly cure for brakes freezing is an air drier or alcohol bottle connected into compressor air line. Frank in Idaho
i gave up for the night. hopefully, 37 deg tomorrow will be enough to get going south. i will spend the rest of the evening reading the manual to determine where and how to get to the discharge line. alcohol we have, air bleeders i don't know. but i think i know where the tanks are.
when you guys quit laughing at my ignorance, please accept my thanks.
anyone going to Florida, stop by for a brown bottle of liquid thanks, assuming i find the freeze point and get it thawed enough to get there in time for Jack's rally.
someone also mentioned rain? we had freezing rain, snow, blowing and drifting, etc over the past week. about 18 degrees out right now. i had to thaw the bay locks to put some stuff inside, and the front door lock was frozen, also.
jack, you're right, but i couldn't pass up a few extra projects that paid money up here so i'd have enough for the fuel bill to come there. ;)
Same thing happend to me on the morning after we returned from our snowy trip to Moab. If you are airing up, and the P brake button stays in, my guess is shoes are frozen to the drums (was on Thomas). Chock the bus, air it up, release the brakes and crawl under with hammer, smack the drums (rear) a few tmes and I bet they release. Good Luck!
Doug Engel, Gunnison, CO
About a year ago while i was getting ready to leave, this happened to my bus. I did like Jack suggested, give a firm brake pedal and hold it for 10 seconds or so, and then quickly let off the brake pedal. Go through this cycle over and over again. I had to do it 6 or 7 times before they released, but it did work for me. Try to let the air pressure build up to max before each application. Good luck.
This may seem too simple, but I have had it happen to me several times. Reach down and pull up on the brake pedal.
Art
art, i'd love for you to be correct. all the other solutions sound like cold, wet, difficult. at 15 deg currently, i'm not looking forward to getting under anything except a blanket.
I have had this happen to me many times and usually when we are headed to Florida. I let it idle for awhile and keep trying the brake application method. Last year, I had to put my propane space heater under the bus with tarps duct taped arouind the bottom to contain the heat. I put it up front near the front passenger side and within twenty minutes it let go. I am just headed out in the 0 degree Maine Winter to start it as we are headed to Jack's bus meet. Two years ago I froze up on the road in -20 degrees on the way home and had to put the heater to it in a Sears parking lot. Now I carry a Mr. Heater propane unit just in case. After cutting firewood in two feet of snow, the Florida warm weather sounds good.
Not stuck no more!!
I just talked to Tom and they are heading south!. He said we was going to the store to buy a torpedo heater, decided to try releasing the brakes one more time first and they released. He said they ain't stoppin' till they are south of freezin' temps.
He also asked me to thank everyone for their help. Jack
OK, I can easily see that keeping your "dryer" in fine fit would eliminate the horror of a line freezing after underway and keep things loose when parked in subfreezing weather as far as air valves and such. What can you do to prevent brake lining from freezing to the drums or rusting to the drums? Park it with the fronts half way up a ramp, cycle the brakes after the first hour at freezing temps.....what? Seems like many of these girls would have been stopped in warmer weather at the outset so how did the "water up" to freeze the drums? It doesn't seem to happen to everybody so what is the difference in their procedures?
John
I'm also wondering about leaving it parked with the brakes off. My MC-8 is a manual, so leaving it in gear should keep it from rolling. Add to that fact that it's flat as a board here and the ground is soft (lots of sand). The bus will settle in a couple of months and is hard to get rolling even without brakes being stuck!
David
David, you cannot "leave the brakes off." Not unless the bus is kept aired up. Once the bus pressure gets down to about 65 lbs, the park brake button will pop up and the brakes will set.
Glad to hear Tom got that ol' Eagle moving!
JR
OK, OK so I had my A PUFF ANY while driving over to a friend's tonight. I think about this stuff and you guys a lot. So here is the answer to why some with the same brake lining and drums and bus and air and humidity have a problem with sticking brake lining and some have never had that problem. If it were universal this board would be a hundred pages long now and have advice even covering "Voodoo fixes". It is a matter of weak brake shoe return springs....or maybe the wrong springs. I don't guess you would have to fry the brakes on a long grade but one time to detemper the springs at least a bit. The things are probably as old as the bus they are on. So go ahead Big Spender in sub zero Land....splurge for the only thing that makes sense to me so far. What are they, a few bucks apeace? What is it worth to NOT have to crawl under and torch the undercarriage? BK, what do you think?
My 2 cents,
John
Glad to hear The Eagle's on the road. I'm Planning on leaving January 1st-to head South,so I read this posting and have been hoping mine won't be froze.My Eagle is covered with snow and iceicles at the moment and she does'nt seem thrilled about it.I've got an oilpan heater on her now,any other tips on firein her up and thawin her out are welcome.
An update. As Jack said, we are on our way and we didn't stop until warm weather. we made it as far as wytheville flying j in virginia, 2nd night in Unadilla, ga where i had a fix to take care of on a customer's Datastorm.
my "procedure" to get moving on Tuesday: We had tried to start on Monday night and move into position to hook up to leave asap on tuesday. Didn't work and tooo cold to screw around, so Tuesday thought i'd try again, then get a heater. Fortunately, the torpedo heater scared the old girl into loosening up. i tried one more time before unloading and plugging in the heater, applying firm pressure at 120psi to the brake. i think having the heaters on in the bus helped blow some heat on the park brake valve, (i'm going to personally find a few experts in Arcadia to discuss this with) which is where i think the problem was.
i looked this up and the manual says water is automatically bled out. so what is freezing? i guess some condensation in the valve? someone also mentioned weak breaks after going downhill could weaken the springs? we just came back from a trip down i77 and probably heated some up in WV and VA near Bluefield and Fancy Gap.
We didn't have a problem last year in the cold. the bus had been stored in heated garage last year and we only moved into the driveway overnight before leaving. i also had not been where i had to apply a fair amount of braking.
Who knows ? maybe the group at Arcadia where we can discuss and check some things for the betterment of the group at cocktail hour.
i do know it's a heck of a lot nicer in GA, and the NWS says 80 in Arcadia. i'm lookin forward to sweating again for a few days.
JohnEd,
I like your idea about cycling your brakes!!
The proper way to put your brakes away in rough weather is hot and dry. If they are hot they will be dry.
If you have been running snow, ice and slush you have to ride them every couple miles to keep them dry anyway.
It seems to be normal for a bus to hang the brake shoes on occasion. There is a mechanical reason for this, it has something to do with the placement of the brake shoe anchor pins. A stuck shoe will usually release if you use enough power in reverse gear unless it is frozen from being parked with wet and cold shoes and drums in freezing weather.
Move south, problem solved.
Dave Rasor 4104-2375 turbo
BK,
Where are you? :( Hello! What is your take on fatigued shoe return springs causing shoes to sit on the drum and freeze in place? :o Are you there? BK? ;D ;D ;D
Hope all is well with you guys in Tenn.
John
As JR said HOT & DRY is best. You cannot keep the linings from being set against the drums when you park unless you maintain at least 65 pounds of air pressure (and do not set the parking brake). Another thing that can cause problems is rust on the DD3 shaft that causes the locking rollers to not release properly. Ewen (AKA Buswarrior) gave a wonderful seminar on DD3 brakes at Bussin' 2006. I have the entire seminar printed out complete with photos of cut-away DD3s (about 20-30 pages). I will look to see if I also have it on my other computer. If I can find it on the computer, I will put a post on here letting everone know I found it. I will email it to anyone that would like a copy of it. Jack
OK, I found it! If anyone wants a copy of the DD3 seminar Ewen did at Bussin' 2006, I will email it to you. Although it would be much better with Ewen included, that is up to you. It is in .pdf format and is 1.44 M. You can PM or email me direct. Jack
Quote from: JackConrad on December 22, 2007, 05:37:42 AM
OK, I found it! If anyone wants a copy of the DD3 seminar Ewen did at Bussin' 2006, I will email it to you. Although it would be much better with Ewen included, that is up to you. It is in .pdf format and is 1.44 M. You can PM or email me direct. Jack
If you want to send it to me, Jack, I'll post it on my website and then put a link up here for anyone who would like to download it.
craig
Craig,
It is on its way to you. Jack
Thanks, Jack and Craig.
Tom Caffrey
Here's a PM I wrote to one of the other members.
I posted it here once, but it got lost out in the ozone of the Cyber Super Slab.
John was kind enough to send it back to me so I'll try again.
Hiya John,
It's possible that weak return springs can cause an otherwise functioning brake to freeze to the drum, however, in my experience, what usually happens is that when a driver comes in, his brakes are in a 'warm' state, which allows the moisture to stay on the drum and on the brake shoe.
Over 25 years ago, I learned that to stop the problem all that was required was to ride the brakes for 20 seconds or so before coming into the yard to park. this allowed the shoes and the drums to heat up enough to evaporate the moisture. This is a great trick to use when you are planning to leave again in a few hours or even a day.
For long term sitting, like when parked for the Christmas holiday, (or at a campground for an extended period), I was taught to keep the brakes released and stop the engine with the transmission in gear, chocking the wheels as needed of course. This allowed the shoes and the drums to come down to the ambient temperature and freeze solid before contacting each other. It's kind of like having frozen ice cubes together, as long as they are frozen, they won't stick to each other, but if you allow them to heat up to above freezing, they'll create a sheath of water which will cause them to become one piece.
The other cause of frozen brakes is the lack of air system maintenance. Even if you have an air dryer, it is a good idea generally to release the air from the wet tank at least once a day.
Most people don't even think about the air dryer as long as they cn hear it release. They seem to think that as long as it makes a noise, it's working. This is far from the truth. The desiccant cartridge needs to be replaced every year or 100,000 miles depending on use. Many times, even the company that owned the bus to begin with never changed the cartridge, even after 4-500,000 miles.
Just recently I replaced the air dryer on an Eagle 10 that was so far out of spec that it couldn't, even when new, keep up with the volume of air generated by the compressor. It originally had a Bendix AD-9 that at some point along the way had been swapped out for a Wabco medium truck version. This air dryer was meant for use in small dump trucks and delivery vehicles or car haulers using 1 ton trucks pulling 3 car trailers.
When we went to order a new cartridge, we found it was cheaper to swap over to a rebuilt Bendix AD-4 than to try and fix the other unit.
The AD-4 is a much larger unit than the Wabco and is even larger than the AD-9. I felt that with the inexperience of the owner/driver, the upgrade was worth it, since the recommendations for replacement and service on the AD-4 are at 300,000 miles instead of 100,000.
Hopefully, this will give the owner many years of trouble free use, since it will take him a couple of decades to drive that far and if he keeps his compressor in good condition, along with the air tanks drained, he should have fewer problems than he has in the past.
I think, since I typed all this while coughing, hacking and blowing my nose from a rotten cold, I'll go ahead and post it to the board instead of doing it all over again.
I hope this helped answer a few questions for you.
Have a great Christmas and a better New Year,
Dallas
Quote from: JackConrad on December 22, 2007, 06:16:01 AM
Craig,
It is on its way to you. Jack
Jack,
I didn't get this. Did it bounce?
craig
Craig,
I just sent it again to your bcmagbb at gumpydog.com address Jack
OK. I got it, and it's loaded. The url is http://bus.gumpydog.com/miscellaneous/The_DD3_Safety_Actuator_Bussin_2006_presentation.pdf
I had an interesting experience this past spring when I thought my brakes were not releasing. I couldn't get the bus to go after storing for months and assumed the brakes were stuck.
I went and got chocks and a hammer and tried to knock the shoes loose by crawling under the bus with the brakes released. (I don't have air suspension.) I tried moving again after that and no go. Finally noticed in my mirror that the wheels were moving, but the bus wasn't going anywhere. I looked over the situation and realized my wheels had sunk 4 to 6 inches into the gravel parking lot over the winter. I was finally able to back up out of the holes I was in by carefully applying the throttle slowly.
The moral of the story is the problem is not always what you may think it is. I'm not sure the brakes were ever actually stuck, but wouldn't be suprised if the pads rusted to the drums considering other rust issues I had after driving on Minnesota's salty roads to get the bus to the storage lot.
Unfortunately, the inexperienced owner/driver that is refered to in this thread is me, with the air dryer problem, the much more experienced 'master' mechanic diagnosed the problem of my air throttle as a faulty air dryer and a lack of maintenance on it, the wabco unit refered to in the post was in fact a rockford unit and was correctly sized for the application and proved to be still fully operational, according to john at the napa store where the core was returned to, so several hundred dollars later and the next time the bus was used, the air throttle was again not functioning. I realize that mistakes can be made not only in the diagnoses of a problem, that is fully understandable. Sometimes the easiest solution is over looked in the quest to complicate and teach a person bus mechanics. A simple thing like a kinked air line can rob the throttle of the required air to operate as it should. I fully understand how something like a pinched airline can be overlooked, especially when it is in plain sight, directly over the motor, mounted on the bulkhead, often the tree's can't be seen because the forest is blocking the view lol, but thats what makes life worth living. cody
Cody,
Hey go easy on yourself, as I am right behind you on the learning curve here. Very enlightening for me as I have alot to learn on bus systems.
One thing I learned early on is that Experience is something you recieve just After you needed it. Tend not to forget that way.....
Merry Merry,
Gary
Cody,
If you will recall, When we operated the air system, the Rockwell-Wabco air dryer did not purge as it was meant to.
Since there was no oil in the supply line from the compressor, and since there was water in the wet tank, the dryer was Not doing it's job, along with the fact that the heating element and thermostat weren't even hooked up.
You and I went to Napa together and looked for an AD-9 cartridge and overhaul kit. And yes, that was a mistake on my part, since the unit was actually a Wabco part, model 1200 if I recall correctly, even though the AD-9 was the original dryer installed in that bus, as evidenced by the mounting bolts.
With that particular model of Wabco air dryer, I stand behind my original statement that it was built for light applications, small dump trucks, 1 1/2 -2 ton 5th wheel puller car haulers and hotshots. It would even be serviceable for light semis and non air ride buses, if they were serviced monthly or on a known service schedule.
John at Napa told us that AD-9 parts would need to be shipped in at an added cost. We then looked for an alternative and picked the AD-4 for your application. 1.) because service time could be extended. 2.) because it was less than $25 more than a rebuilt AD-9. 3.) the combined total to overhaul the existing air dryer was almost as much as purchasing one already rebuilt. 4.) It would be there the next morning at no added cost since it would come on the normal delivery truck.
The pinched air line to your air throttle I did point out to you before another technician decided to take over the job. It was suppose to be changed before you left.
It's very easy to second guess after the fact.
But then to use your phrase, you got exactly what you paid for.
Dallas
The nice thing about this board is that we can disagree at times and still remain friends, after I had asked several times what I owed you for the work, you said for me to pay you what I wanted to pay, I offered you money ($400) and you wouldn't take it, you told me to keep my money, even tho it had not corrected the problem, I felt that you had done work over the course of several days and rightfully earned it, but I did enjoy meeting you and cat and wish you guys a happy holiday season and I'm sure we'll meet up again in our travels.
It hadn't corrected the problem because the job was not finished.
However, you decided to stop in the middle and have another tech work on it, who obviously didn't fix it either, since it was stuck in Fl with the same problem.
DF
Well to be totally honest here Dallas, another technician did not step in and take over! You'd asked me on Thursday as mom & dad left on their charter trip to look at Cody's starting problems and showed me the switches that you questioned which were which. At that time I told you I wasn't sure, that dad was the one who had lots of Eagle experience & was good with electrical systems and that we'd get him to help us with it when he came home Sunday. At that time you said ok, and I made the mistake assuming you were OK with that! Well Sunday he didn't feel good and he did not touch it, of course niether did you! On monday around 2 PM dad started looking at it and found that a mouse had mad a comfy suite in the electrical panel box and chewed a wire into. Also the switches were old and corroded and stuck. so dad fixed the wire and changed the switches. Not once did you attempt to work on that bus on monday even after dad had asked if you wanted to back it in over the pit so you could do what you needed/wanted! Yes I admit I misunderstood you asking me about those switches and what I tought of Cody's starting problem as you asking for our help. Especially when you said OK to us getting dads help when he came home. If you were not ok with it you should have said so! But no you waited until after dad looked at it and started fixing it, to throw a temptantrum and walk off from finishing what YOU told Cody you wanted to do! I waited until late tuesday afternoon to back it in and change the oil as Cody wished to get done sometime this year, by whoever! Dad or I never intended to take over any of the job, but somebody needed to finish what Cody wished to be done and you made it obvious that you were done with it & US! I have no knowledge of the air dryer system's condition & like Cody agreed with you that if you said it needed replaced, it needed replaced!
I didn't know that John at Napa had told Cody that they discovered it was in working order when they cleaned it and tested it before returning it as a core, until just before Cody & Libby left when he told me so. So please don't go accusing me off taking over the job just because I stepped in and finished what needed done so Cody & Libby could make it to Jack & Paula's for Christmas as planned. I still like and respect you and Cat both very much, and wish the both of you good luck and great success in what ever you do! Again I did exactly what they say you do when you @$#~u~me something as I did on the starting system, but hey you are a grown man and could have said no I'll do it myself when I said we'd get dad to help us when he gets home! You were standing right next to me when I called mom & told her we wanted dad to help sunday when they got home!
;D BK ;D
PS after receiving my whopping bill I'm surprised Cody & Libby could afford the fuel $ to make it the rest of the way!
Gentlemen,
This is obviously a personal issue that you should be resolving amongst yourselves, not hashing and dragging each other through the public forum on Christmas Day.
Merry Christmas, and may Peace and Love be with each and every one of you. You're all my friends, though I've only met one of you. I do hope you'll take a few moments to consider the BIG PICTURE today.
Craig
Quote from: gumpy on December 25, 2007, 01:24:50 PM
Gentlemen,
This is obviously a personal issue that you should be resolving amongst yourselves, not hashing and dragging each other through the public forum on Christmas Day.
Merry Christmas, and may Peace and Love be with each and every one of you. You're all my friends, though I've only met one of you. I do hope you'll take a few moments to consider the BIG PICTURE today.
Craig
Craig I do agree I have said my piece and now I apologize to the rest of the crew for publicly doing so!
Merry Christmas & A Happy & Prosperous New Year to ALL!
;D BK ;D
you all have hijacked my thread!!!!!!
you can make amends by having a Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year!
Those of you in Florida at the Rally can stop by for a personal wish.
Tom,
I laughed to a tear at your post. Really good and straight to the point whats important.
BK, Dallas, and Craig, you are some of the most likable, enjoyable and informative nuts on this nut farm. I know that each of you likes, admires and respects the other. I know that cause i feel I know you. Xmas or Haloween or any day, regardless........... You understand.
My best wishes for a Happy New Year to all of you and your families,
John