Have any of you guys pulled that tank out? I was wondering if there was any tips or tricks to it.
There is a small rusted pin hole in front of the welded seam. It's on the bottom so I'm assuming it's a rust hole from the inside as the outside looks fine. I'm planning on pulling it out and welding up. I'll be doing a little inspection of the whole bottom as past experience has showed there are probably a few other spots ready to blow thru. :-\
And of course, this happens AFTER I do my battery bank and box under it so to make it that much more cramped. Figures.
Not so full of air right now,
Chaz
Chaz,
It was about 4 years ago that I pulled mine out. I pulled it to relocate it to the bulkhead between that compartment and the front luggage bay, rotating the tank 90 degrees in the process. As I recall it was a totally routine disassembly, my challenge was re forming the lines to accommodate the new location.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Trying to weld air tank pinholes is an exercise in frustration-from first hand experience. I was told the same thing on this board but I went ahead and tried it anyway. The more you weld the more holes appear because you burn through the rust that is plugging other holes.
Before you start any welding grind off the bottom paint to bare metal and see how many rust spots you find. Each small round rust spot will be a new hole on its way or already there.
Gus, your preaching to the choir I think Chaz invented metal ;D ;D
Chaz and metalworking are like humans and breathing - all automatic. :)
Chaz, not trying to be disrespectfull (it comes naturally some days :o ), but this is directed to those that may not know about welding thin walled pressure vessels.
One is supposed to be ASME certified to weld on pressure vessels over 6" diameter. Thin walled pressure vessels present their own special 'opportunities'.
Do not under estimate the power of compressed air. Many have & survived, but some haven't. & if one busNut doesn't - that's one too many in my opinion.
Thanx Jerry. I remember you telling me about that. I was hoping it would be just straight forward.
Charley and Sammy,
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Too funny!!! Yeah, I've had my share of playing with metal. And your right, I do love it. But I do appreciate the warning Gus put out. It helps others that may not be as up on the subject. And Kyle is 100% correct. A person doesn't want to "booger & grind" a pressure tank. I will be TIG-ing this in with stainless. (I have been tested......... OH, for welding too! :D)
I guess it's just going to be "pull it and do it". I couldn't imagine there being anything else that I could do while I'm at it, but it's worth checking. Finding out there is a better way, or something else to do after the fact, always bums me. And that my fine feathered friends is the ABSOLUTE BEAUTY of this board: 1634 members got my back! ;) ;)
Thanx guys! Couldn't do it without ya!
Chaz
Chaz,
You may want to bite the bullet and check your local junk yards for a tank.
For what you are going to spend with electric, time, gas and stainless, you could buy a tank or two in excellent condition.
If you aren't against moving the tank location, you could get the air tanks off a IH 9670 that are about the same diameter, but around twice the length.
Morer air is always betterer! :D
(Although, I do like to fix stuff on my own more than I like to just buy new parts and throw at a problem.) ;D
I agree with Dallas. You should be able to buy a tank in good condition cheaper and have a better repair. A pressurized vessel should be hydro tested after repairs no matter how good the tech is who repairs the problem. One mistake can be deadly.
I will never forget a picture I saw it a tire repair shop in central Florida. I don't remember the exact circumstances but I remember well the lesson. The caption on the picture read "This is why we we insist on safety". It was a picture of a mans pants that had been blown off of the body after he tried to air up a tire on an old rusty rim. The shop told him they would not air it up because of the condition. He sneaked around the side & did it anyway. It exploded & killed him and injured his son. They found his shoes a block away.
SAFETY FIRST!!!!!!!!!
TOM
Both good points guys. I totally appreciate the concern!! Truly!!
But there really isn't any boneyards around here that would have a bus like mine. That would take a bunch of time!!!!!! And "fabbing in" a different tank would take GOBS of time also. (I already have all the wall space in that compartment taken up with electrical) I figure - depending on what it takes to get it out - it should only take a couple hours total. The pulling and installing should take the largest amount of time. I have everything else right here.
And altho 120# of air is a substantial pressure, it's not a big deal for me. Now please don't feel I'm being cocky, I'm not. But I have welded water towers to trombones and most everything in the middle.......including pressure. I can't even count how many hard hydraulic pressure lines I have welded or brazed for local companies on big equiptment. I think they can get up to 1800# if I'm not mistaken. Plus,I have the ultraviolet dye and light to check my work for leaks.
But you are right to put out that word of caution. It can be dangerous!!!!!!!! And being in the welding business since '81 (14 years my own shop with as many as 9 employees) I'm pretty sure I'm still up to the task. ;) ;) But people who don't have the experience shouldn't try this at home. I am actually the kind of guy to bring it to.
Good cautionary info fellas. Thanx for the concern. It shows you care. (hard to come by nowadays)
Chaz
Chaz can weld a pecker on a hummingbird ;D
Quote from: Charley Davidson on November 19, 2007, 07:54:50 AM
Chaz can weld a pecker on a hummingbird ;D
Or the crack of dawn. LOL
Richard
QuoteOr the crack of dawn. LOL
Why would I want to weld her crack up?? :-* :D
If you can hold that Humming Bird, I'll give it a try! ;D (his pecker, that is! :D :DLOLOLOL)
I was going to ask if you could weld it while he is flying! ;D
Jack
There is a big difference between the 1800 psi hydraulic & 120 psi air in that that air is compressible & the hydraulic fluid is not.
That means that once there is a leak in the hydraulic system, the pressure drops quickly (unless the pump is running, & even then the energy released is only what the pump is adding.)
A leak in an air system is a bit different since the air compresses & allows the compressors energy to be stored.
For example, a pipe full of water will split when the pressure causes failure. That same pipe can explode if it is filled with air when failure occurs.
That is why pressure vessels for compressible gasses are tested with an incompressible fluid (hydro test) for certification.
There is more stored energy in an air tank than many think. If it took a 5 hp compressor 2 minutes to fill the tank & you release the pressure in a fraction of a second, you are looking at the energy equivalent of hundreds, maybe thousands of HP in that fraction of a second.
Sure, air tanks can be welded. That's how they are made to start with, but you can be sure they knew the quality of the materials they were using. ;)
To take what Kyle is saying in another direction, if you have a tire at 100 PSI...calculate the total square inches in the inside of the tire and rim (A bunch!) and multiply by the total pounds per square inch (PSI) then imagine running over a nail and how much force is coming out of that tire in a few hundreths of a second...in that one place?
SOmeone was talking about the old safety poster of the guy thats shoes were found a long way away. There was a poster out in the late 70's, early 80's that showed the imprint of a mans body that was thrown to the ceiling when a split rim let go!
Jack
Thanx for the concern guys. But as I said earlier, I am the one you would take it to to get it fixed. I have done compressor tanks before as well as built and designed numerous other pneumatic machines. I've welded aviation equiptment and things that roll down the Hyway. If it was for a nuclear facility I would bow out.
I'm not sure if I should post my resume' for you to feel comfortable or not. But rest easy.
Chaz
I had an air tank rust through on the old bus. Went to a truck salvage yard and they had a mountain of tanks and mounts. Might find something very similar if not a perfect fit.
I did not need to find the same tank since I needed to relocate it anyway. It was located where it was completely inaccessible hence the rust from never being drained.
Hi Chaz, chill out, most of us knew you could do it...it's interesting to see the concern...and learn a few things to boot!
Jack
No chillin necessary, Jack. It's only in the 40's here right now. ;)
I do appreciate the concern. Honestly. But I do have experience is this arena also. (details of pressure dynamics, etc. ..... no. Experience in welding, metal and metal fatigue,... yes.) And if I need to further explain myself for them to feel comfortable, I can do that. I can give someone a whole plethora of things I have done, designed and fixed if it will help.
My question was if there was anything I should know about taking the tank out. Welding it is in my area of expertise.
I'm hoping my letters aren't making anyone feel that I am aggravated in anyway....... I'm not. But the "printed word" is NOT my forte'. So the lack of being able to convey my thoughts better may be misinterpreted. I try my best.
For all the concern that has been shown, I just want to let people know, it's ok. If I wanted to "debate", there could/would be plenty I could write. But I don't. I just want them to put their fears at ease.
And as far as
Quoteand learn a few things to boot!
I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is the sheer beauty of this site!!!!
Appreciative,
Chaz
Chaz -
Are you talking about the air tank on the curb side above the batteries? Or is the tank in the A/C condenser compartment? I'm a little confused as to which tank you're talking about.
Obviously, before pulling the tank, you've got to make sure all the air is bled out of the coach. After that, removing the tank should be pretty straight forward - or cattywampus, depending on the contortions required for access & removal.
Band-Aids not included, of course. ;D
The idea of picking up another, newer tank at a HD truck boneyard is interesting to us "non-welders", but with you're experience, perhaps a moot point.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I'm sure most of us are capable of making intelligent informed decisions. :o
I was not intending to insult anyones ability, well, not this time anyway. :P
It is my intent to provide information so others can have a chance at the 'informed' part, especially when I see casual references to welding on corroded air tanks AND I know what some of the results have been when done in a hap-hazard manner.
I have learned lots from those that have posted here in the past & try to return the favor.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em think.
Ok you engineers get back in your locomotive and get this train back on track ;D And be safe those things weigh a lot and don't stop too fast and if you ever need it welded Chaz is your man.
Quote from: Charley Davidson on November 19, 2007, 11:20:50 AM
Ok you engineers get back in your locomotive and get this train back on track ;D And be safe those things weigh a lot and don't stop too fast and if you ever need it welded Chaz is your man.
Train, somebody said train?
Maybe if Chaz was closer . . .
In the mean time, I'll stick with my buddy who is nuke & ASME pressure vessel certified 8) ;D
Yep, that's the tank russ. It shouldn't be too difficult to get out....... I think ....... but it would have been easier before I did all the wiring. :o ::)
I "think" there are 2 sides to it. At least that is what the weld around the middle would suggest to me. (could be wrong there) If that is in fact the case, I would assume a person would need a 2 sided tank also. ??? ???
Chaz
Quote from: Chaz on November 19, 2007, 12:04:38 PM
Yep, that's the tank russ. It shouldn't be too difficult to get out....... I think ....... but it would have been easier before I did all the wiring. :o ::)
I "think" there are 2 sides to it. At least that is what the weld around the middle would suggest to me. (could be wrong there) If that is in fact the case, I would assume a person would need a 2 sided tank also. ??? ???
Chaz
Chaz,
Russ mentioned
2 tanks which
1 is it? LOL!
notice I've kept my trap shut until now! LOL! I have complete faith in you & know that if the tank turns out to have bigger/more holes than are feasible to fix that you'll just build a new one from scratch! ;D BK ;D
Opps, sorry BK. ::)
It's the tank in the AC compartment, curbside.
I am definitely expecting more holes. I'm hoping I can clean it out and somehow see how bad it is. I may just go ahead and replace the bottom..... depends. It would be easier that way if I find that the bottom is in bad shape. I could just roll a piece of steel out on my roller, fit it and weld it.
Building a new one wouldn't be too tough, but i would probably opt for a different one at that point. :-\ I just don't have the luxury of a bus bone yard around here. I do have some old argon tanks that would build a wicked tank (about 5/16" thick!!!) but I'm afraid my bus would list to the passenger side! ;D ;D ;D
Chaz
If I had known last year that Chaz is a welding whiz I would have sent him my old wet tank to weld, then I wouldn't have had to go to ebay and jerry rig a slightly different tank. If my dry tank fails I'll do that because so far a replacement has been impossible to find. It is a pretty small tank and a very tight fit.
Grind was a bad choice of words, Actually I used a sanding disc. Even I know better than to use a grinder!
you guys might need some more larning. When you can find a welding instructor in a class, he has to be certified not only to teach the class,but certigied by the state. Now become friends with him or her[she is good looking too] and it won't cost you anything especially when you bring them bolts,nuts and things that they would buy for others. Be nice to those that CAN be nice to YOU. My story. Oh btw 5'5 brunette and around 130 ;D
gomer ;D
Send it Gus!!!
I'm not sure what a wet tank is as opposed to a dry tank, but as long as it has nothing to do with "pool" :P (as it were) :D I'll do it.
By the way, Rusty, my very good friend, sometimes employee and possibly future Hot Rod building partner IS my old College instructor for welding and metalurgy!!!!! So you are right on the money Gomer! But he ain't that good lookin. :-\ lol But he IS and all around great guy!!! I can weld, but that guy can weld circles around me. We would do things that a local fortune 500 company couldn't find others to do.
Chaz
Chaz -
I'm way jealous of your welding skills. . . shoot, I have trouble soldering and getting it right! And don't even ask me to sweat together copper plumbing. . .
OTOH, I'm pretty darned good with "hot" glue and PVC pipe - especially if it's 2 inch stuff.
;)
Thanx Russ. When I was a kid, I always thought it would be cool to be able to weld as you could basically do/build almost anything. I didn't get to follow thru till I was 22. But so glad I did.
By the way, just make sure when you solder copper that you clean it mechanically (sand paper, steel wool, whatever) even if it's brand new and flux it good. I teach (past 12 years) metal sculpture and soldering to 8th graders. They can do it, so I got faith in you too! :)
Chaz
chaz. I told them what I did on=line and they both laughed so hard I thought that they were going to pass out, They did of course told me if there phone rang too much it would be my fault.LOL
I know of some buses here in central fl that have been parked so if anybody needs some stuff call me or e-mail me.
Thanks Gomer
Chaz,
I told you wrong, the wet tank is the new one I bought and the dry tank is the one probably rusting through also.
The wet tank is the first tank after the comp and the dry is the second one up front in my 4104. My dry tank is directly in front of the front axle and is pretty small. That is the one I expect to need repairs in the near future. The big problem in replacing it is the locations and sizes of the outlets and the really small size of the tank.
When it needs repairing I'll be calling on you!
I'll be here!!!! :)
Chaz
Chaz, If you run into trouble with your tank I have 2 small alumium tanks and 1 steel tank from a Ford semi. If one would work you can have it for shipping. Tom Y
Thanx Tom! I totally appreciate the heck out of it!!
But, I think I'm fine.
Thanx a bunch,
Chaz
Chaz,
I just re read this thread and it appears that it isn't or wasn't clear that that particular tank is actually TWO tanks. It is divided into two completely separate tanks to allow water to more fully condense in the first compartment thus delivering dryer air to the second part. You'll notice there are two drains connected to it. along with two inlets and outlets. This brings up the possibility that you could have leaks develop in the partition between tanks which would be quite difficult to repair. It might be a good idea to independently pressure test the segments before putting it back in.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Thanx Jerry. I knew it was a "double tank" but not sure why.
But what I CAN tell you is........... the tank towards the rear (I'll call it the 1st tank) MAAAAAAN was it full of s......!!!!!!!!!!!! Nasty, stinky black sludge about the consistency of honey at 36 1/2 degrees! ;) ;D lol YUCK!!! And a little water.
I finally got it pulled last night and my hands still stink!! (can't pick my nose today! :'( ;D ;D ;D)
The hole, actually there is another one forming too, looks like the work of electrolysis. I had to repair the same type holes on a water tower. It's interesting how the hole (s) almost "drill" right thru the metal. The rest of my tank seems to be very solid upon inspection.
I also seen where the tank(s) were welded together and the fittings were brazed. I believe my fix will be TIGing in the holes with bronze. I will give it one more good inspection just to make sure.
By the way, in case any of you are concerned about welding a tank that had flamable liquid in it, here is my method. I even do it for diesel fuel where some people don't feel it is necessary.
In this case where there is oil that I need to get out, I first use mineral spirits to cut the stuff. Then I use GUNK, the engine cleaner, to cut the mineral spirits and what ever "stuff' is left. (GUNK is water soluble. Thats why I use it.) Then a little dawn dishwashing detergent and water. Weld it with a hose of argon (Inert gas) in it and then clean the water out. In this case I will use airline antifreeze and rinse it out.
It may seem like more than some people do, but I hate those big LOUD noises!! ;) ;D ;D ;Dlolol
Later guys,
Chaz
Chaz,
I had a friend who used to repair automobile gas tanks, he just started another car and ran the hose with the exhaust in the tank and welded away. He is still alive. Was it luck or.....
:)
Frank
I know several guys who do that. Scares me to death!!!!! :o :o I suppose it does work well for some, but it's just not worth it to me. The argon takes the place of the exhaust. Reason for that is I can control it better and it doesn't stink as bad!! :P ;D
I guess I like taking my chances in places where it might benefit me in some way.
Thanx Frank,
Chaz
I have often heard the exhaust method and the fact folks live to tell about it.
It would be just my luck that the car furnishing the exhaust would be running rich and I would find out the hard way. I have lots of other ways to do injury to myself. Don't need to add to the list ;D.
Chaz, I really like your system. Not everybody has argon available (unless they do TIG welding). I wonder if nitrogen or CO2 would also work? Might be easier to find.
Jim
Quote from: rv_safetyman
I have often heard the exhaust method and the fact folks live to tell about it.
It would be just my luck that the car furnishing the exhaust would be running rich and I would find out the hard way. I have lots of other ways to do injury to myself. Don't need to add to the list ;D.
Chaz, I really like your system. Not everybody has argon available (unless they do TIG welding). I wonder if nitrogen or CO2 would also work? Might be easier to find.
Jim
Jim,
I disagree with the statement that not everybody has argon available! If they have a welder more than likely they are familar with the local welding supply house (whether it be Welder's Supply,AirGas, JimBob's or whatever!). These places sell far more than just welders, welding wire/rods, gloves, helments and etc. They also supply acetlyne, oxygen, argon, nitrogene and most any product needed in the welding profession and they do sell/rent small bottles of whatever a do it yourselfer might just need on a one time basis. It may not be commonly known that they do this, but the fact is the any thing you need is readily available from your local supply house if ya ask the right questions. FWIW! ;D BK ;D
Chaz, & Frank I'd never heard of the exhuast from another source trick. But I do remember more than once going with my dad & uncle to have the tank welded on their race car and watching the top of the racing fuel all the way just before "Old Man Trivett" would run my cousin and I off tell'n us "ya'll little varmits run out there an get behind that dirt pile on the far end of the lot, and whatever ya do don't be watch'n me while I'm weld'n 'cause it'll hurt your eyes!" Then dad and uncle fred would each grab a fire extingwisher and stand by as "Old Man Trivett" welded the tank up! And of course we always snuck up as close as we could without getting caught and watched! I never thought it was safe, but I know for a fact that they did it on our race cars (dad & uncle fred had a road racing team) several times & we were at his shop other times when he did it! He always insisted that it was topped off right before he started and would just jump in and weld it up, usually not wanting anyone close by!(but dad and uncle fred insisted on pretending to be firemen & stood by with extingisher). Of course now that I'm older and wiser I realize that dad and uncle freds efforts would have been fruitless as they'd probalby be knocked down or out by the blast had anything actually happened!
;D BK ;D
BK,
I've heard those stories also. Man, that just scares the gum balls out of me! Even after all my "prepping" I still stand back, as best I can, and check it with a torch. I just don't want to go out that way or worse, live thru a bad one.
By the way, it's done and worked fine. I put a new paint job on it and everything. (Rustoleum black hammered finish. I love that stuff.)
No "boom boom" again, (pfeeeww) ::)
Chaz
BK. Yes, I am aware that they sell all the gases. However, they will charge you for the gas, rental on the tank and you need a regulator/flow meter. For nitrogen (need for my business) I just had to lay out about $300.
You can get a tank for much less than that.
Jim
Many places like Tractor supply, Lowes, Menards, and various welding supply shops sell single use tanks of various gases.
They are just about large enough to do one large job.
I think they run about $20 per bottle / non returnable