The city of Hampton, VA zoning board has ruled my Bus Conversion to be a commercial vehicle.
Vehicle is titled as a "MOTORHOME"
Vehicle is register as a "MOTORHOME"
Vehicle is insured as a "BUS CONVERSION"
The bus project is not near complete, just a shell, however, I never used vehicle for business purposes and removed all commercial markings.
HELP!!! Any court case anyone can sight. I may be heading to court soon.
Thank you.
Hi Stephen,
First, is your bus in your front yard or back yard? if front, I would get in the back because you are just asking for your neighbors to complain.
Second, you should be able to proform projects at your home weather it be a bus or tractor trailer as long as you are flying under the radar sort of speak.
Third, you are registered as a motorhome, look up ordences in your town on motorhome and bide by them.
In my town, motorhomes are to be stored behind or along side your home as long as it doesn't prutrude past the front plane of the home.
Let us know what comes of this.
Nick-
I have a good reciepe for pipe bombs ;D
77Flx - it doesn't seem to matter whether they consider it commercial - your town has 28 ft. length and 10 ft. height limit - HTH
http://www.hampton.gov/codes/iframe.html?linkfrom=zoning_ordinances&bc=General%20Provisions&link=chapter_18.pdf
Buenos Dias from Nuevo Mexico.
New Mexico publishes its laws on the 'net. A law is meaningless if the terms are not defined. The definitions should be in the statutes.
Here is the definition of commerce in NM:
I. "commerce" means the transportation of persons, property or merchandise for hire, compensation, profit or in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise in this state or between New Mexico and a place outside New Mexico, including a place outside the United States;
J. "commercial motor vehicle" means a self-propelled or towed vehicle, other than special mobile equipment, used on public highways in commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle:
(1) is operated interstate and has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of four thousand five hundred thirty-six kilograms, or ten thousand one pounds or more; or is operated only in intrastate commerce and has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of twenty-six thousand one or more pounds;
(2) is designed or used to transport more than eight passengers, including the driver, and is used to transport passengers for compensation;
(3) is designed or used to transport sixteen or more passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) is used to transport hazardous materials of the type or quantity requiring placarding under rules prescribed by applicable federal or state law;
In this state the gotcha would be:
" (3) is designed or used to transport sixteen or more passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation;"
It's designed for, and it isn't used. Dang.
I'm glad I don't live in a dity! I have two buses two semi trailers one semi tractor and a front end loader at my place Jerry
Quote from: Charley Davidson on November 01, 2007, 06:05:14 PM
I have a good recipe for pipe bombs ;D
That's the ticket! There are very few personal problems that cannot be resolved by the proper application of high explosives! :o ;D
77Flx...have you considered moving South? Like to North Carolina? No problem with that crap down here...as long as you stay out of gated communities. Some of these neighborhood associations have more rules than the state.
If what Niles came up with is accurate, they may not get you on the 'commercial issue, but they'll be back with the 28' problem soon enough. You don't need us, you need local representation. Legal advice may save you a lot of effort. As Nick says, if you can hide that sucker in you backyard, like under camo or something, now's the time to do it. Get it out of sight. Move it for a few days and slip it back into the back at night.
Hey, you can leave it down here! I got room and no one's going to complain. I could have 30 buses and no one's going to complain....I don't think? NAAAAAAAAAAA ::)
Before you dink around with the city, get some legal advice. You'll save a lot of worry and bucks in the long run.
If it's illegal, and someone is complaining, the establishment will eventually force you to move it. Or, you may come home one day and they've moved it for you. Guess who gets the tow and storage bill. Or your legal advisor may find a reason that the bus may stay where it is. An attorney working for you would figure this out quickly.
Does the bus run? Either way, move it before the
enemy bus HATERs does. Once they issue the 'Cease and Desist'...your time is up. Period.
Got any mini storage lots nearby? Problem with them is that working on equipment in their lot is verboten.
Watta mess!! Hope it works out for ya!
JR
It appears the city of Hampton doesn't want motorhomes in the city period. Not too many motorhomes are less than 10 feet tall or only 28 feet long. My travel trailer was taller than 10 feet.
I think the other rule on that same page about no curved metal roofs on houses is pretty funny. There must have been a specific house the city didn't want.
I'm thinking about building a new house and one of the first things I check for any lot I consider is the RV parking rules. I'm planning to build a garage for my bus, but it might be parked outdoors at times.
I know here in California, they won't register it as a motorhome or RV until it can sleep, eat, and have a complete bathrooom. Until that point it is a bus. Good Luck, TomC
I like to check out the definitions sections of the codes when this type of classification question comes up:
http://www.hampton.gov/codes/iframe.html?linkfrom=zoning_ordinances&bc=Definitions&link=chapter_02.pdf#page=6
In Hampton they define a Commercial Vehicle as:
"Sec. 2-19.4. Commercial Vehicle.
The words "commercial vehicle" shall be construed to mean any vehicle used in the conduct of a business or government function with such identification thereon, or any vehicle registered as a commercial or government vehicle; such as, but not limited to step vans, tow trucks, pickup trucks, etc. Certain commercial vehicles are specifically exempted under this section, namely automobiles, station wagons, and buses used for the transportation of students (public and private schools). (10/24/90)"
Unless they have changed the definition of a Commercial Vehicle - they cannot "rule" your vehicle as commercial since it does not meet the "inclusive criteria" of such definition (since you say it is registered/titled as a "motorhome", and insured as a recreational vehicle - with no commercial markings at all on it - I presume that you don't use it for business or governmental functions...). Bring this documentation before a judge and he'll/she'll likely throw the Zoning Board's case out.
However -
If you have a bus that's larger than the 28-foot (336-inch) long, 10-foot (120-inch) high, 8-foot (96-inch) wide restrictions set forth in the previous link:
http://www.hampton.gov/codes/iframe.html?linkfrom=zoning_ordinances&bc=General%20Provisions&link=chapter_18.pdf
in "Sec. 18-3. Major Recreational Equipment, Parking and Storage Requirements", sub sections 1, 3, and 4 - move it into storage somewhere. A case thrown out because they were looking in the wrong place for a way to get rid of you, will often return with a valid argument, renewed viggor, and if you take that to a judge - he'll toss your case.
In the end, it's your responsibility to follow the law, and be the good example - it's your neighbor's/zoning-board's job to be a$%h@l$# (and it sounds like they are putting extra effort into their role! ;D).
Cheers!
-Tim
Stephen,
With the law as pointed to by Tim. You'd best move your bus outside the city very soon. Once the bus is safely outside where the city can rack up fines you may be able to get the law changed to be more RV friendly, but that will take time and energy. Basically You are SCREWED.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Thanks for the responses. Below are some answers to ?'s:
:)Conversion was stored in backyard, 250ft from road, surrounded by shubbery and a 10ft high drive gate.
>:(Conversion currently in storage (off property) to avoid criminal charge.
:oBoard of Zoning granted me variances in the past for oversized RV storage in 04 and 07.
:PI do not live in gated or neighborhood with special rules, however there is a strong association with connections to city hall.
???No valid complaints have been received by Codes office.
>:(Absolutely no commercial use. My adjoining neighbors went with me to the zoning meeting to share that info.
???No one seems to care about "definitions." City defines a "commericial" vehicle. State defines a "motorhome." My vehicle is a motorhome.
:)Oh, and the zoning board has approved the parking of other bus conversions (for oversized rv partking) within the city.
I do need a lawyer. Hate to take $3K away from project, but if I don't hire a lawyer, whole project could be over. Still looking for similar court case concerning Bus conversion/commercial vehicle.
Thanks for your feedback.
I guess the first thing I'd do before hiring an attorney is compile the facts and write a clear, concise letter to the zoning board, city council and mayor. Document the definition of a commercial vehicle. Include copies of the registration, insurance, and exterior photos which clearly show it's not a commercial vehicle. Document every instance you know about where they are allowing someone else to park their bus conversion on their property. Send photos of your vehicle parked in your yard, from the perspective of the street or adjoining properties, clearly showing it is not a nuisance or eyesore. Request they review their codes and definitions, and suggest they either respond with an explaination of their ruling. Don't bring up the 28 foot rule as this is not their complaint, at the moment (one thing at a time). Don't be an @$#. Use a professional attitude. And finally, suggest legal action against them if they fail to follow the law.
If they persist, consult an attorney who specializes in property rights.
I've been going through this same thing with my city for about 4 years. Someone has a grudge against me and has found they can harass me through the city simply by complaining about something on my property. The first was a complaint about my bus, but they code enforcement officer found there were not violations, but, while she was looking, she conveniently found some others. It escalated from there. I finally sent the city a letter with 28 addresses within 3 blocks of the code enforcement officer's home which were in violation of the code, and indicated if they continued, I would make it my mission to find every violation in the city and report it, which would effectively overwhelm them with work, since they have to check out every one. They changed the rules because of me, and now require a form to be filled out to make a complaint, rather than just a phone call. I haven't received any more complaints since, but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: 77FlxTransit
Thanks for the responses. Below are some answers to ?'s:
:)Oh, and the zoning board has approved the parking of other bus conversions (for oversized rv partking) within the city.
I do need a lawyer. Hate to take $3K away from project, but if I don't hire a lawyer, whole project could be over. Still looking for similar court case concerning Bus conversion/commercial vehicle.
Thanks for your feedback.
There's your answer right there! Find proof and/or possibly get the owners of such vehicles to tell you who/how they got to change the zoning for them!
FWIW ;D BK ;D
By the way if needed we got room to park 100 buses here if needed and I can gaurantee that NONE of our neighbors would care!
By the way Gumpy gives very sound advice! & yes as he says he's been there done that! (he posted while I was typing! LOL!)
Working in your backyard is certainly easier logistically, but is it worth $3,000 to fight the city?
I don't know how real estate is in your area, but you might find a commercial building owner who has a vacant space large enough to store a bus where you can also work on it. You could probably pay for several years of storage with a lawyer's fee. Try putting a post on your local Craigslist looking for a spot.
Are you a member of the FMCA?
They have a section on their website that deals with parking, storage, harassment ect. you may want to check it out, I'm not sure, but they may even have the people that can help you out with the fight (under the right circumstances) just to set precedent(?)
Jim
Hi Stepeen,
Here are the FMCA governing board members that fight these battles
Governmental and Legislative Affairs Committee
Max Durbin, F76454, Chairman
Frank Brodersen, F289730
Paul DuBois, F296221
Vicky Ferrari, F369332
Al Talbott, F223128
Phone #'s
FMCA National Headquarters
8291 Clough Pike
Cincinnati, Ohio 45244
FMCA Mail Forwarding Service
3590 Round Bottom Road
Cincinnati, Ohio 45244
Top
Phone
FMCA National Headquarters
(513) 474-3622
(800) 543-3622
FMCA Mail Forwarding Service
(800) 448-1212
Top
Fax
General office, Convention Services, Chapter Services
(513) 474-2332
(800) 543-4717
Convention registration (exhibitor), FMC magazine, Government & Industry Affairs, FMC Classifieds, display advertising
(800) 543-4791
(513) 388-5286
Convention registration (family)
(800) 544-8524
(513) 388-5295
Membership, Mail Forwarding
(800) 547-1219
(513) 388-5314
I'm certainly not an Attorney...but your plight raises some questions for me to the ability of Hampton to make their regulations more stringent than those of the state and get away with it.
Here's the givens: Your bus is registered by the Commonwealth of Virginia as a Motor Home on the State Rolls. How is it that the City of Hampton can change that classification when youj have the Title to prove its' classification?
Next Tuesday is Election Day in many States. I'd make sure that the people who are sympathetic to your situation are the ones who believe that they will get your vote. I'd also contact my local representative for the reason that he'd like to know the Hampton is attempting to usurp the power of the State.
I'd move the bus to Rescue...just temporarily..and because the name of the town would help your case.
But move the bus somewhere...it's cheaper than litigation. It's fine to fight for principle but damnned expensive.
I still believe your best chances of winning are contacts in Richmond.
FWIW
Bob
This same situation exists in most of the small bedroom communities in the greater LA area. It got so bad you could hardly drive down some of the streets. RV's are therefore outlawed in many, many of these communities.
The same when I moved to Florida. I bought a home in Pompano Beach, adjacent to Ft. Lauderdale. When I got there with my coach, there was an inspector of some kind there within the hour advising me I could not park in front of my house or in my driveway. It was fine to park a boat there, but not a bus. LOL
I really believe you have absolutely no chance of getting the city to change their law. Even if they charged you initially with the wrong no parking ordinance, you can be sure they will be back with the correct one.
Richard
Vote with your $$$$...move
That is what I do.
Wayne in Yorktown