Does anyone know if the square lights on the 85up mci-9 are the same size as the round??? I'm thinking of replaceing my 83 mci-9 front lights with the small square lights??? Also I wonder if the rear will Interchange??
If you are talking about 102A.. headlights, they are totally different from an MC9 assembly.
MC9 square headlights are a conversion kit that includes new panels. Same for the rear 102 style tail lights.
I bought mine at IBP, $500?..for both sides and headlight assemblies.
Round headlights are much taller than the square "Peterbuilt" style square headlights.
They are not too bad to install...there's not much sealing to do. Just pull off the trim at the air intake, and drill out the rivets. The new panels will have to be trimmed to fit the rearmost dimension, but the rest is rivet on. Even the pre-drilled rivet holes matched.
I'll try to post a pix. You'll notice that I've replaced the upper turn sig panels too....I don't remember, but I believe I paid $500 or both the upper and lower panel (and headlights).
This pix shows a before and after....Bill's unmodified NJT is identical to mine. My cap and front sheet metal have been changed.
JR
BTW, if you want to see both a 102A3 headlight assembly and MC9 assemblies..both round and square, check out Gary L's pix from Palmetto Cove (Kyle's NON-Bus Rally). There are large, good quality pix in the Oct, 07 albums. Jerry Campbells 102A3 is pictured with the headlights that you are (I believe) referring to. My bus (Harold "JR" and Terri) is also shown square on the front...sorry about the geezer standing in front of my bus! ;)
Bill Haga's OEM front end is also posted in the albums. Bill's and my bus are twins...both 87 MC9s. They were identical.
A 102A headlight assembly could be fabbed onto an MC9, but it's gonna take a good bit of fabricating to make it work. An MC9 has a vertical panel, and 102s are slanted.
102 rear tail light panels will interchange with an MC9...as long as you use the panels.
Retrofit kits are available for rear late model tail lights too. Both in LED and
incandescent are available.
JR
I installed Freight liner head lights in my MC8 I used the org. panels, The first one took a lot of time with a die grinder but the second went fast because I then had a pattern, You can see them on my bus, it is in the Mak classified. the one on the top and in the center. This way is a lot less then 500 and I think they can out very nice. I like the dish in the org. panel.
Not to diminish the normal rectangular headlight idea, but I sure like the front of the MC9 from Memphis that's a couple of listings below the one mentioned. Looks like a custom D3 front, in stainless rather than the fiberglass kit? Man I'd love to find a way to do that. Find a burnt-out D3 and chop 6" out of the width?! LOL
Busnut83 -
I'm going to ask a couple of somewhat stupid-sounding questions, but there's a method to the madness:
Do you drive a lot at night?
Do you want to install the smaller rectangular headlights for SAFETY reasons, or for simply STYLE reasons?
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Russ,
I hear you comming with that question. My thought was that if the coach I purchase has those square headlights I would want to convert to 7 inch round so I could get my Hella's installed. I believe the little squares were known to have poor performance and fewer options than the 7. I am not putting the squares down, really I'm not....they look cool and modern. My ideal would be a set of dual 7's with one set being yellow and the other clear. 80 watts of fog light with a high and low beam....now thats cool.
2 cents
John
Quote from: Russ on October 24, 2007, 01:56:55 PM
Busnut83 -
I'm going to ask a couple of somewhat stupid-sounding questions, but there's a method to the madness:
Do you drive a lot at night?
Do you want to install the smaller rectangular headlights for SAFETY reasons, or for simply STYLE reasons?
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
I'm not Busnut83, but I'll take a shot at the question.....STYLE! Definitely. ;)
I've got square headlight and cannot tell any difference driving at night. Maybe it has something to with the halogen bulbs? I believe that the square lights are brighter...when compared to the OEM rounds. My high beams are definitely better than the old rounds.
As John says though, there may be something better in round that is considerably improved over the square? I like the looks of the square headlights. Don't do "nostalgia."
Could be related to the age and corrosion of the OEM buckets. Ground corrosion is probably a large factor in the quality (or lack thereof) of round lights.
JR
JR,
My Hella's have replacable bulbs so if they get a little "dull" I can pop in a fresh pair. The new Sylvania Stars are very much brighter than my old Halogens and those were very good performers to begin with. The Syl are rated at 55 Watts but they shine like 80 Watts according to the mfr....at least. I have always elected to run a power line from my bat and let a 30 amp relay control the voltage and us the signal from the switch to control the relay. I get the alternator V across the bulb if my ground is good and that extra 2 volts is all the difference. I read once where the 7.5 inches allowed more precise focus due to the larger size of the lens but I think the low light loss lead crystal glass and the super reflector are also very important. The rtest I read showed profound differences in the quality of the glass in different lights. You can also buy a "slightly higher wattage" bulb, that fits, from your local motorcycle shop. Even up to 110 Watts and that is a sure ticket. The more precise focus of the Hella lets me push the envelope a little and nobody is flashing their lights at me so I don't appear to be a bother.
As for being dated? I don't give a fat rat's a**. I'm old! Besides, some of the new 2008 trucks I have seen have the 7.5 pounds installed stock. The old Brills looked great to me so I guess I am dated.
Thanks,
John
If you decide to replace your round lights, I would be interested in the parts you remove (cans, mounts, trim, etc).
I'm keeping mine, and after hitting a couple deer last year, I could use the spare parts.
craig
Just for style.... Yes I do drive at night alot????
Just for style.... Yes I do drive at night alot? ???
Go for it! You'll like the looks! While you're at it, you can lose those round turn signals too! You'll be able to see just fine at night. All the KWs, Peterbuilts, and Freightliners seem to get along OK. That's where the lights come from. ;)
JR
Busnut83 -
Since you're interested in changing your headlights for styling purposes, rather than SAFETY reasons, then my comments would not be worth sharing.
JR Lynch -
All the KWs, Peterbilts and Freightshakers get along OK because the US DOT is too myopic to realize better is out there.
FWIW. . .
;)
There's gotta be some engineering studies (headlight ISO's?) showing the capabilities of the various lighting designs? Both high and low beam.
That would shed some light on this thread. Where are our engineers when we need'em? Niles???
The trend seems to be to smaller, more focused and more CP lighting...witness the projector lamps on many vehicles...most buses included.
The only lighting that I'm aware of that's significantly deficient, was the narrow square Chevy pickup and van headlights.
Generally, anything that greatly improves the headlights distance, such as Hella, may be illegal in some useage.
While I'm unaware of this occurance in buses, the heat from higher output bulbs will damage plastic headlight housings This is a common, and expensive problem with cars and motorcycles headlight housings. I saw a post where someone recommended changing the wattage of the headlight bulb. If your headlight housing is glass and metal, no problem, but if it's plastic (polycarb), could be a problem.
With higher output headlights, comes a point to where you blind oncoming drivers, even on low beam. That's a problem.
JR
Russ has previously posted some great ideas but they were ideas for safety and seeing better, not for cosmetics.
Richard
JR,
That was me! I installed ever so slightly higher wattage bulbs. The more precise focus of the Hella kept ALL the light out of the other guy's eyes. I don't recommend it and have since replaced those bulbs with stock 55 watt items. The Hella is an incredible improvement over the lights of their day and, being all glass, they are still a superb idea. Mine are 18 years old, have gone through maybe 5 sets of blbs and I still have pride of ownership.
The projector lamps are the hot ticket and the high voltage pure white bulbs are like having lights for the first time. Costs thousands to upgrade your older system. Those puppies should also be illegal as they blind me and I know those Mercedes and BMWs are properly focused. Why is that stuff legal? Don't know, but, it sure doesn't say much for the judgement of DOT.
I am safe and legal, bro, honest. I do speed though when out in the wide open spaces so I am normal.
regards,
John
It always pains me to see anyone add square headlights to a stock looking classic bus. If one had added the front and rear FG caps then it square goes well with them, but the original look is so much classier with the round HL.
Our buses are unique, why try to look like every other S&S coming down the road?
That said, I know it is your bus and your bucks but I had to add my two cents!!
As has been mentioned, some of us want to keep the "original" look. In my case that is dual 5 3/4. I have been caught a couple of times and I just as well have been using candles.
I did quite a bit of research on headlights and one of the best pages that I found is:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/home.html
I am about to crack out for the following headlights:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/csr.html
Pretty pricey but driving down a dark highway with the better half watching the right markers and me watching the center line, is just not worth it.
Daniel Stern makes a strong case for headlight relays. I did some playing with my fuses a couple of days ago, and it is obvious that my connections are very marginal and that relays would certainly improve even my "dinosaur age" headlights.
Jim
Jim,
For my money you are headed in the right direction. My Hella's are "flat faced" and superbly focused. Razor sharp line across the garage door with dark above and bright below. Cibie's are their equal as far as I know. Don't get sealed beams. My Hellas have the same lens in a Non sealed beam as the sealed beam does. Different back is all. Calif wouldn't approve replacable bulbs back then but i got them anyway when I verified that the lens was the same in both. The Hella had a upward turn on the right low beam that illuminated the right side for deer or peds and Cibie mentions that they have that feature also. I think the flat face has a better focus in both mfr.s lines. Make sure you run a heavy gauge wire to the light location and install relays to actually switch the light. You need a relay for the high and low beam in each bulb if you do it my way.
Good luck and shop the net. I found Hellas discounted.
John
Jim,
Had the same problem on my 4104. The solution is mostly cleaning all grounds and connections at the terminal strips but the real improvement is by adding Halogen sealed beams. I got mine at an auto parts store for about $13 each and I think WM carries them also. The great thing about the halogens is that they have an inner bulb even though they are sealed beams so that if the glass lens cracks the light still burns! Pretty neat.
Actually I have one of each now and am waiting for the old sealed beam to crack before adding the other halogen. You can really see the difference.
Relays on a 4104 will only enable you to bypass the panel switch since the batteries are all the way in the rear but they will probably help some. I've been thinking about doing that since all the switch wiring is getting ragged. Check the HL switch, if it is getting hot it needs to be replaced or you need a relay. Don't be fooled by heat from the bulbs, sometimes they have been replaced by overly large bulbs and get hot. Some even burn the plastic overlay.
Jim and John are on the right page here, when it comes to the SAFTEY issue of headlamps. (Jim - I like those new CSRs!!)
The E-code lamps have a far superior light output pattern than the stock US DOT stuff, and, unless you've actually driven with a set, you won't comprehend the difference. It all has to do with the more precise optics of the E-code lenses, not the bulb itself.
Even the "halogen" DOT lights you get at AutoZone don't compare, altho they are better than straight incandescent, but not by much.
I've used the standard E-code headlamps since the '60's, when I first learned about them thru my car rally activities. Have had Marchal, Hella, and Cibie, with my preference being the latter.
These are not sealed beam lights. Should one fail, all you do is replace the bulb, not the entire lamp assembly. And the bulbs are available at any auto parts store, as they use H4s for low beam or H1s for high.
The standard E-code headlamps are available in 7" and 5.75" round, also in 142x200mm and 165mm rectangular. (http://www.cibieusa.com/cibie_main_frameset.htm)
So even the guys who are only interested in "STYLE" can install some, if they're the least bit SAFTEY-conscious.
These lamps aren't cheap - they run $50 - $75 each - but then again, "What price SAFTEY??"
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)