I've been wondering something for quite some time and soon I'll need to be planning for the wiring. For those who don't plan to boondock much what is the ideal ratio of 12vdc to 120 vac lighting in your coach?
Obviously you should have some 12v lighting but for cosmetic and other factors I'd like to put mostly 120v lighting. The problem is that it would be pretty difficult cosmetically and logistically to put a 120v light right along side each 12 volt light.
I'm trying to think of a good blend so that you could run down the road or boondock on 12v only and still have the nicer (imho) and brighter 120 v lighting available when you are parked or use both! The boss doesn't see so well in darker settings and needs what I'd consider very bright lights around the vanity etc. I tend to like things more subdued. ( Maybe I'm a vampire?)
-Dave
This is an interesting question for me also. Since I am doing an all electric coach, I figure I will mostly have to have my inverter on all the time anyway so I figured all 120V lighting. I figured maybe a 12v light at the front of the coach for times when the entire bus might be shut down and that would help you get to the controls to turn everything on.
Of course, I may be completely off the mark here so this question could be enlightening to me as well.
How about using a few 12 volt lights, like LED's, for aisle lights, step lights, night lights, etc that you can just leave on without a lot of concern over power consumption? I found a site that has bunches of styles of LED's. I ordered several and will be mounting them in the kick space of cabinets, benches (on the booth, if that ever materializes), and steps. As to main lighting, if you're going to use an inverter, your 120 volt lights will run directly off the battery. You'll certainly have a better selection at lower prices going this route. Plus you can use dimmers more easily. Many of the halogen or xeon puck lights are 12 volt anyway and are available cheap at Lowes and Home Depot. They can run off the 12 volt system since you're going to have some kind of charger / converter anyway.
I'm using a mix in my bus. Cabinet and driver / passenger reading lights will be 12 volt incandescent. I'll have the 12 volt LED's for the uses I mentioned above. I have a few Thinlite 12 volt fluorescent lights that'll be general task lighting. Most of the rest will be 120 volt strip fluorescent fixtures under cabinets, etc. I'm thinking about having a track light track along the sides, in the living room area, above the windows. There are very small track fixtures that can be placed anywhere I need them as I need them without much pre-planning. These can also be controlled through a dimmer. I think it is important to have both types of lighting, as redundancy is good. I found this out recently when I somehow fried my inverter on my last trip.
David
I have installed both 12v and 120v in all areas that have been completed so far. Plan on the same in the front half of the coach. Figure it's good to have both kinds available just in case whatever happens. The choices are plenty in both.
Paul
My bus had 24 volt flourescent lights for aisle lighting. The reflectors for the lights are actually part of the roof structure.
I choose to keep the flourescent lights and use them for house lights. They are plenty bright and I see no need for 120 volt lights. With all of them on in the living/litchen area it is almost too bright. I never have 120 volts except from the generator or inverter anyhow.
I am with Belfert. I augmented my 12V lighting in my S&S so I had no need for 120V stuff. Still, I did install back-up 120 flo in the cockpit area. Never really needed it. If I had my druthers, every system would have a back-up completely redundant system. This didn't help, did it?
John
I really want redundancy for the 'what if's' but what I've been thinking is under counter and under cabinet 12v lighting, maybe rope lighting. Blending ceiling 12v and 120 and also near the vanity, kitchen etc with the 12volt mostly as hidden as possible or blended in to not be obtrusive.
I'd like to mount 120volt sconce lighting and ceiling lighting in the main salon and hallway such as it will be and also a 120 in the kitchen,bath and bed so about a 70/30 mix in favor of AC but with the ability to always get by with 12v running off the converter. I still want the ability to 'rough it' when I choose or need to.
At home I use a bunch of home automation stuff and run a JDS Stargate controller with touch pads and thought I might try to use some touch pads and a controller in the bus as well. With that I can have preset dim settings on any of the lights as well as control of anything else I want.
I just need to work out a good filter that'll block out stray X-10 signals and extraneous power line noise. I'd mount that at a main panel to hopefully clean up any electrical noise from a genset, inverter or while plugged in.
-Dave
Dax,
I have 12 VDC and 110 Vac lights in the bedroom and bunk area.
They are ALL LED. The 110 Vac LEDs only use 3.8 watts and put out the equivalent to a 40 watt.
In the Hall and Parlor area the only 12Vdc lights I have are red LED. This way occupants can see there way around, not mess
up my night vision and don't cause a reflection on the front window when driving at night.
I have 6-110 Vac 3" can lights in the Parlor with the 3.8 watt LED lights for use when not driving.
I plan on putting a curtain between the drivers and passenger to allow full lighting when driving at night.
I really like the LED's, I have reduced the energy I use as well as the heating effect by easily over 600 watts.
Cliff
Old transit buses are running 12 volt flourescent fixtures. Saves the losses through the inverter and gives you the great lighting.
Transit scrapper near you for bargain parts.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Yeah...about the same answer. Diesel electric coach plans. Right now the scheme is to keep the "chassis side" (12 vdc) and the "coach side" (110 vac) separate. Ex-schoolie Crown with lots of extra interior lighting circuits that probably will not be used. What may be employed rolling along the road will be upgraded with florescent stuff.
All the "coach side" stuff will run thru the invertor(s) unless the gen set is running managing heavy loads like the batts, oven, clothes dryer, A/C's, basic food prep, etc.. The coach lighting will be electronic/florescent stuff both direct and indirect. Will probably end up with a lot of lighting stuff, but only using a fraction of it at any given time. CROWNS FOREVER!! :) :) :)
Old transit buses are running 12 volt flourescent fixtures. Saves the losses through the inverter and gives you the great lighting.
this brings up my question. if you are pulling all the voltage from the house batteries-i.e. the 12 volt lights and the inverter to power the 120v- which is the most efficient use of the power? I know the LED is the most efficient but after you run through the inverter are the loses enough to worry about? or would your house batteries last longer with all 12v?
steve
Quote from: Dax on October 18, 2007, 11:32:40 AM
I just need to work out a good filter that'll block out stray X-10 signals and extraneous power line noise.
Be sure to test the X10 with your inverter. I have boatloads of X10 stuff that I've used in my house for decades, (literally) but the system won't work at all when powered by my cheapo inverter. I suspect that the inverter may also have fried one of the control boxes. Just FYI...
Not quite sure what you mean, but in my case, it would probably be more efficient to run everything on the coach side (house side) thru the sine wave invertor(s), wire the coach for 110 (120) vac 60 htz and pretend the coach is just a house that rolls down the road.
The chassis side (I confuse myself) would be left alone and would be just bus 12 vdc. Also it might be a bit more efficient/redundant to run light coach loads thru a small dedicated sine wave invertor and leave the heavy loads for a larger sine wave invertor.
Quote from: compedgemarine on October 18, 2007, 03:23:36 PM
Old transit buses are running 12 volt flourescent fixtures. Saves the losses through the inverter and gives you the great lighting.
this brings up my question. if you are pulling all the voltage from the house batteries-i.e. the 12 volt lights and the inverter to power the 120v- which is the most efficient use of the power? I know the LED is the most efficient but after you run through the inverter are the loses enough to worry about? or would your house batteries last longer with all 12v?
steve
Steve,
Anytime you convert you take a loss in the conversion. But the type of lighting and the lumens you get will vary greatly.
My power budget using the batteries for inverter powering works for my needs. Of course will vary depending on fixtures and how you camp, boondock, etc....
I like the 110 VAC lighting better, The 12VDC is mainly on the road for me, but can be used when stopped.
To me using LEDs almost eliminates the need for the DC lighting, but, I want a little redundancy, just in case...
Cliff
Quote from: HB of CJ on October 18, 2007, 03:57:47 PM
Not quite sure what you mean, but in my case, it would probably be more efficient to run everything on the coach side (house side) thru the sine wave invertor(s), wire the coach for 110 (120) vac 60 htz and pretend the coach is just a house that rolls down the road.
The chassis side (I confuse myself) would be left alone and would be just bus 12 vdc. Also it might be a bit more efficient/redundant to run light coach loads thru a small dedicated sine wave invertor and leave the heavy loads for a larger sine wave invertor.
Just to keep from confusing the folk that have no idea what is being talked about,
NEVER, EVER,EVER,EVER, try to make your coach like a house on wheels.
There is a large difference between house wiring, ground/neutral bonding, and wiring in general.
It would be more accurate to treat your coach like a big lamp or other accesory load in house.
When on the pole, the power draw from the bus is just like any standard lamp or drill or microwave. Just a bazillion times bigger.
When on Inverter, the bus is like a lamp or a laptop that is running off of batteries.
When on the generator the bus is like a lamp or a microwave or an electric iron being run from a self contained AC power supply, or like being powered by the pole.
Dallas
I know this is a very simplistic way of putting it, and if anyone can add to it without confusing the issue more, have at it.
Dallas has it right. I should have mentioned (but didn't) that one assumes many things on this board that may not be necessarily 100% true/correct. Dallas intrepretated my remarks literally, others may also. Big difference between a house and a coach. Be careful what you do---you are the one responsible for your actions.
What I meant to say is that the 12vdc chassis side will be left alone with some updates in lighting. The coach/house/home/boat side will be wired correctly to code (better than code) with proper 115 vac wiring, fixtures, appliances, connections, grounding, bonding etc., running thru one (1) small sine wave invertor and one large sine wave invertor.
The enclosed, dedicated gen set will feed from the rear 100 ga. fuel tank and will have the necessary to-code fire proofing, insulation, exhaust, breakers, etc.. Excessive starting/surge loads will be handled by the invertor, thus reducing the necessary size of the gen set. The primary useage of the coach will be extended dry-camp boondocking. :) :) :)
I prefer DC lighting as it only requires one wire since the coach is ground everywhere. I took some of the 24 volt ballasts and put them in 120 volt flo lites and it works just fine and puts out light the same as a 40 watt tube does on 120 AC. Jerry
LEDs may be the way to go if you are looking for a simple/redundant system with rather high efficiency.
Five or more years ago, LEDs were only really good for calculator displays, novelty flashlights, and dashboard indicators... Now LEDs are used in sunlight readable video displays (think "jumbo-tron"), exterior vehicle lighting (heavy trucks down to exotic sports-cars), and other previously incandescent-only lighting applications (Audi uses LEDs for Daytime running lights, and headlights in some models now - LEDs are starting to replace all traffic signals, and making inroads to street lighting).
Some luminaire (light-fixture) manufacturers are grasping the idea that the incandescent light has its days numbered in many applications, and they've started producing LED retrofits and new designs based on LED selling points (low energy consumption, high efficacy for energy consumed, directed light energy for smaller reflectors/optics, less glare, tighter controlled light color, etc...). As an example, in a newsletter I receive from Philips-Lumileds - they have a picture comparison of a sodium based "torch" street light, versus an LED retrofitted fixture (picture attached).
The trick with LED lighting is knowing what you are looking for. There are products on the market today which are LED based (Hockey puck type), that can be mounted below a cabinet to light a worksurface (i.e. a counter, or sink). Powering them from 12Volts is simple - getting power to them from "shore power" can be as complicated as you want. If I recall my commercial aircraft electrical correctly, a "ground-based" power supply plugged into the side of the fuselage on the tarmac can actually feed the existing low-voltage power bus with a DC source by having a dedicated converter (either transformer-recifier-stiffening or rectifier-switching-stiffening type supply). This way a diode stops shore power from backfeeding into a battery system (and vise versa), or a shore powered relay isolates a bus from the battery supply when power is active and connects it to the converter's output (a neat trick if you also charge your battery from shore power, and don't want the loads to interfere with the charge current/voltage). This way if you have a failure of a converter, you have a battery to fall back on, or if your batteries are shot you can use shore power - all without having duplicates of circuits (maintenance nightmare due to needing both 12v and 120v bulbs and fuses/breakers available), or changing the user's operation of the system.
If you want to run 24volt fixtures (if you have an all 24-volt/all-electric rig) some LED fixtures are pre-made to support voltages from 10volts to 30volts. Even better, if you are tenacious and like working with electronics (I'm guilty of this), you can build you own fixtures the way you want them to be made.
As for redundancy, LED fixtures will typically have a bunch of LEDs, instead of one filament to blow - depending on the internal wiring, many LED fixtures allow for a "gracefull degradation" in light output. Oh and did I mention the typical lifetime of LEDs? 50+ thousand hours... (most incandescent bulbs are rated to 5000 or less). ;)
I was thinking of more to say - but my mind is numb from work...
-Tim
P.S. in the picture below, the sodium fixture implementation is on the left, the LED implementation is on the right - both shots were taken in the same location for the sake of Apples-to-Apples comparison (P.P.S. - Photocredits for the photo(s) were not specified, so for the time being assume "Philips-Lumileds San Jose, CA" or "Midwest Circuits Ferndale, MI"). -T
I faced that very same question, about where to put 12 volt lights and where to put 110 volt lighting. Our coach is quite small in comparison to your MCI's (1948 Silversides) so I had to get creative and I took the lamp (110 volt that I wanted to use and added another small set of wires for 12 volt lighting and clipped a small socket in there. Now the same lamp does double duty depending on what I want to use.
This may not be acceptable with all of you , so my second suggestion would be to have at least one 12 volt light in every area that you may want to use. ( For boondocking) Then add your 110 volt lighting as you need. Remember, under cabinet lighting works very well, is better for people with vision problems [me] and saves a lot of space.
Just my two cents, 'cause it worked for us.
Dave Siegel PD3751 Naples , FL
Bus is like large lamp? Maybe that is why I get so many bright ideas in here ;D Some low voltage backup lighting is nice. Lightnng trips the circut breaker at the RV Resort and you are scrambling around looking for a flashlight.
I have 120V, 12V, and 24V in my bus. Some of the 120V halogen ligting products are actually low voltage 12/24V DC and can be used in the conversion by just eliminating the 120V transformer. Some of these are compact and ideal for a conversion.
I've done the same thing as jjrbus recommended. I have two strings of under cabinet "hockey puck" style lights that are 120 volts. I took the transformer out of the circuit and wired them directly to the 12 volt house lines and , viola lights. I use a decent converter and that powers my 12 volt lights when I am plugged in. Other wise they work off the house batteries. Cool.....very cool.
Dave Siegel PD3751 "Silversides" Naples, FL
Mixture for me.
I have some 12v LED pucks in the shower. Will be putting these all through the coach, mostly for boondocking.
I used some halogen pucks in the water bay. Just put them in last week. If I can get a good deal on them, I'll put them in
all the bays. They're kind of expensive. Individual pucks are like $7, but a pack of 3 w/ transformer are only $19 !!?? Marketing.
Don't need the transformer. They're 12v.
I'll use some 12v RV flourescent lights in a couple places, and I will probably use some 120v compact flourescents in the bathroom
light fixture above the sink. I also have the 120v flourescents from the parcel racks that I currently use. I may use them in the
final coach, but not sure.
And just yesterday, I was at Menards, and they had some track lighting kits on clearance. They have 2 tracks and 3 nice lights.
They are 12vac, so I can throw the transformer out and hook the light tracks directly to 12v. Original price $99, on clearance for
$39. I couldn't pass them up. Bought 4 sets. Not sure yet where they'll end up, but I suspect in the living room, and possibly
bedroom. They're halogen lights, so use considerably more power than LEDs, but still not to bad, and they'll put out quite a bit
more light than LEDs would.
craig