Hello! I have been reading the many interesting posts here for some time now. My conversion project of our '79 Grumman 870 Metro Coach may not fit here but I figured what the heck :)
I belong to a volunteer fire department in Clinton County Ohio. My primary function is Cadet Adviser for our cadet program (youths 13-17 interested in becoming future firefighters). As a project to benefit our county and nearby counties, I wanted to come up with a vehicle that could offer assistance in emergency situations. The vehicle would have to be able to provide restroom facilities to families in need along with provisions for infants such as a baby changing station, etc.
The vehicle also needed to provide a communications command center, exterior scene lighting and after talking with our Sheriffs department, a small interview room was also requested. Thinking along the lines that a bus would be the perfect vehicle with enough room to accommodate everything I wanted to incorporate in the unit, a full sized school bus was donated to us. After more planning and looking over the donated school bus, it just wasn't sufficient for our needs and county requirements.
I shopped around looking for a BIG BUS and found a Neoplan originally purchased from Queen City Metro in Cincinnati, Ohio. The Neoplan had major issues and just wouldn't move when placed in gear. The owner informed me of a gentleman at QCM that had worked on it for him in the past. I contacted him at QCM. After explaining what our departments purpose for acquiring such a vehicle was and how it would be used to serve our local and neighboring communities, he put me in touch with the main man at QCM. Much to my surprise he donated a 1979 Grumman 870 that had been completely overhauled in '86 for a special project. The project was never finished and this like-new bus had been sitting for many years with routine starting and moving.
I am by NO MEANS in-touch with all the conversions and the process of them and I would appreciate any information that could assist us to make this a reality for our community.
Basically I need ideas on adding a bathroom consisting of a sink and toilet along with plumbing it all along with the fresh water tank, black water tank, etc. This unit would need to be ready-to-roll on a minutes notice, completely functional even in the severe winter months.
I know many of you Advanced Bus Nuts are scratching your head asking.. does this guy have any clue what he's got himself into!!! I certainly understand that and would be most greatfull for any ideas, assistance or directions you could point me in.. other than to that of a local mental ward :D
Best regards,
Scott Fries
FireDeptNut
newbie welcome and you will find most of the people on the board will help in any possible way just ask, and as for scratching our heads most us scratch more than our head working on buses
two issues you will have.
Where to put the generator, figure you will need on e with the intended service.
and tankage ( mostly keeping it and the plumbing from freezing in the winter months.)
what we have done on our VIP coaches is to either use RV/marine plumbing antifreeze in the main tank or an aux tank. and have a shut off on any sinks so you don't wash your hands in the stuff,
the 870 is a very good bus...much better than the neoplans which were more or less disposable ( transit versions)
Scott,
Welcome to our little chunk of the asylum.
You may want to look at local counties near you. Many have "Command Centers" built on everything from a FedEx Box van to a Prevost H3-41.
Down where we are right now the county has a FWD GMC motorhome built into their command center, although it doesn't look as if it's run for some time.
Richmond County NC uses a 32' Bounder M/H, Floyd County, IN. use to use an Old Look GMC transit.
I think your ideas are great and hope you find what you need in the way of information. There's lot's of it here to be had, if you ask the right questions.
Again, welcome to our illiterate elite society of nonconformists and general ne'erdowells.
Dallas
Scott,
To make it ready to roll at a moment's notice, even in freezing weather, and include a bathroom you'll most likely have to keep it plugged in. Though my conversion is a, more or less, normal RV, I built it to meet a similar goal. My fresh water and plumbing is all above the floor and in heated space. I heat with a heat pump supplemented, in very cold conditions, by a Webasto diesel fired boiler. The Webasto system's thermostats are set at 45 degrees in the winter so it kicks on if the heat pump can't maintain 45. To prevent freezing of my unheated waste tank I add a generous amount of water softener salt to an empty tank, at the beginning of each winter. My fresh water tanks are under my twin beds and hold about 180 gallons. My domestic water heater is also in the heated area. My fresh water plumbing runs along the base of the walls. You could probably make a small black tank under a toilet and keep it all above the floor. The fresh water tank could be under a couch or counter. It's definitely doable, especially if you can keep it plugged in.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Scott,
Welcome, I think it is wonderful use of a bus. Hopefully the budgetary constraints counties tend to place on
such things won't be a source of frustrations adding onto the work that you will be doing.
A small populace county here in Montana used a 5th wheel for their command center. To offset some of the costs
they have rented it out to the state and feds as a command post during the fire season here.
Good luck to you
Skip
First off, I want to thank everyone for the warm welcome to the board!
Tekebird: The generator was a concern. I've read where people remove the original A/C system and mount it in that space above the engine. Obviously I prefer to keep the original A/C since it works flawlessly (for now) and with the interior layout design, there really isn't any space left for a generator. We were also given a smaller Para Bus. Our Fire Chief wants the smaller bus to roll any time the Big Boy goes out. My plans are to mount a generator in the rear of that bus and will power the 870 by connecting to the genset in the smaller bus. I wish we could keep it all self contained if there would be enough room for one in the 870.
Dallas: Thats a good idea to check and see what other agencies are using. I've done a little research but so far there really isn't anything semi-local. I did talk to a guy in the Columbus area. Evidently they have a motorhome that has been converted into something similar to what we are planning. I hope to be able to talk with him more and perhaps take a look at what they have done.
Jerry: Thanks for the tank information. I didn't realize that you could add a salt solution to the waste tank to prevent it from freexing up. Like you said, being ready to roll at any time in the dead of winter, freezing of the fresh/waste water is a big concern. I plan to mount the fresh water tanks (probably use 2) inside near the bathroom area and the bus will be heated at all times in the winter months. My biggest concern is that after speaking with several camper dealers, they all tell me it's NOT possible to put a bathroom in this thing. Well, perhaps.. but since they say it's not possible.. I WILL find a way to do it and have it work as we need it too :)
Skip: The idea of renting it out is a great idea! Actually, we plan to provide it free of charge as needed within our community of Clinton County Ohio. We have talked with many other agencies nearby our county and they have all expressed interest and excitement of this bus, once ready to roll being available to them as needed. Many have suggested that we develop a 'rate schedule' for when the vehicle is requested in areas not immediately in our county. We plan to figure something to cover the cost of fuel. Most everything needed for this project, including the bus as I mentioned, is being donated to us. So our expense of creating the project will be minimal. We also have a large trucking company here, that will maintain it for us through a donation of their time. It's amazing how when you contact various businesses, explain the concept of the bus and how it will serve the community they are a big part of, how many are willing to give you whatever materials you need when you place their name as a sponsor on the outside of the vehicle.
Thanks so much for all your replies and ideas/considerations you have provided! I greatly appreciate it.
Scott -
Look underneath this Flx. You'll notice that the rear suspension actually mounts to the back of the fuel tank. Based on this, you're probably going to have to locate the restroom closer to the front of the coach, compared to the normal center placement. Add in the larger interior wheelwells, and you've got an interesting challenge!
Depending on the electrical requirements, one of those portable Honda Quiet RV gensets might do the trick for you. Set it outside to use, put it back inside when done. Two can be daisy-chained together for more capacity, when needed.
Consider keeping the rear door as the main access (that's what Fresno PD did with their Flxible New Look Command Center), and using the front vestibule area as "office space". (Obviously keeping visual requirements for driving.)
Interesting project, and good use of our tax dollars, too!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
If you are not aware, RV toilets are available in a low model which is made to mount on top of an interior holding tank. If there is no way to drain it through the floor, it could be drained through the sidewall. If you are new to the RV industry, get a catalog from Camping World for a lot of ideas on what is available.
To not have the unit completely self contained would be a major mistake in my opinion. A genset would be much more value than the OTR A/c which can be replaced with roof top units. What if there is another Katrina and you would want to go to support the cleanup. Two drivers, double fuel expense, double parking space and probably other drawbacks to having to have a support vehicle all the time. Not really good planning in my estimation.
Richard
Hello Scott.
I agree, it needs its own generator. There must be a cavity up underneath somewhere that a frame could be installed.
The bathroom holding tank may be a flatter tank that becomes a raised platform that is then enclosed with the toilet mounted on top. Just step up into the throne room from floor level.
Mistake often made with toilet placement, is to have it too far from the outside door, compromising the security of the vehicle and the confidentiality of the business being conducted to allow people to use the john.
Best is for the toilet to be right there inside the door, with interior doors to isolate the rest of the unit from the more general poplace allowed to use the outhouse.
Try this yahoo group: mobilecommpostdesignclub@yahoogroups.com
lots of really technical stuff as well as the simpler stuff
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Additional thoughts on an Emergency Vehicle
First I think you should consider the worst possible emergency that you could respond to.
Having lived thru several major earthquakes in California, several hailstorms in Oklahoma with softball sized hail plus tornado's, rain and wind storms, Hurricanes in South Florida, Ice storms and snow blizzards here in WV as well as the forest fires prevalent in all parts of the country. Also to consider is the threat of terrorist attacks that will happen I am sure.
Taking all this in consideration, and I realize you can not cover everything, at least your planning should consider these items. You never know where you might be called to provide emergency service. I will list several items that I would consider if I were doing the planning. With a goal of being almost entirely self sufficient for a period of at least one week and preferably a couple of weeks.
POWER, HEAT and AIR CONDITIONING:
You indicate a desire to retain the factory installed heating cooling system. WHY? It is really only beneficial while you are traveling to and from the disaster and then for driver comfort. Do you really want to run your main DD engine, at high idle, for days or weeks on end? Even on high idle it will not generate enough heat to keep the coach warm in cold weather. How much fuel would this suck up? And how hard is this on the engine?
And where are you going to get the fuel? In the disasters I have been involved in, gasoline is generally unobtainum for several days or maybe weeks and diesel fuel close behind. I think that factor alone shoots in the head the possibility of setting a couple of little Honda gensets outside to operate from. During a blizzard with 20 or 50 inches of snow, or a hurricane with 20 or 30 inches of rain?.
My suggestion is yank out the factory air, install a good diesel genset, a Webasto style diesel furnace and as many roof airs as are necessary to cool the coach in 100 degree weather. Also a good inverter and battery bank to provide overnight power so the genset would not have to run 24/7.
TOILET FACILITIES:
A porti-potty self contained style toilet would be worse than useless I believe. You must have a large holding tank(s), as TomC installed, with provisions for draining it. Preferably with a macerator pump that you could use a garden hose to direct to effluent to a somewhat distant spot or sewer.
SUPPORT BUS:
The idea of a support bus to dispatch every time the emergency vehicle dispatches sounds kind of ridiculous to me also. What if you are only out for a few hours?
The support vehicle, in my opinion should be set up to allow you to stay out for longer periods of time. A freezer for frozen meals, (you do want to eat don't you) an additional source of bottled water, an extra supply of diesel fuel, a couple of bunks so you can get some sleep.
Jack Conrad could probably add quite a bit more that may be needed, but this will give you something to think about.
Richard
For a long time I was unsure how to fit a black tank under a Flx870 in a place suitable for a typical RV Toilet. I ended up with a custom fiberglass tank approx 48 X 48 X 8 and slid it on top of the fuel tank with dump valve at rear of fuel tank.
Tank has flat bottom but rarely find a dump station thats level so don't find that much of an issue.
Dave.
As to the commode, I'd also look into a recirculating unit. Our 4107 came with a marine-type recirculator (with internal macerator). Think blue juice on a commercial aircraft. So, with each "flush", we're only adding a limited quantity of stuff to the tank (no, I won't go into details). Once we've added about 4-5 gallons, the contents get dumped into the black tank, and the commode gets re-primed with fresh water and blue powder. Since we're not adding fresh water with each flush, we could get by with smaller fresh and waste tanks. When I replace the current tanks I may go a bit smaller than the 100 gallons of each we have now.
If the thought is for the commode to be available to all, then I agree with security issues as to location. If it's only intended to see to the comfort of the command-post staff and other officials, then the rear stepwell may come in handy for a tank location. That would mean retaining the front door, and blocking over the rear door - counter to other suggestions - so you get to take your pick.
By the way, there's a long tradition of bus drivers (male) using the rear stepwell/rear doors. (Remember, I'm coming up on 40 years in the transit business). If you're converting a fishbowl or old-look, and you find rot in the rear stepwell, well, you get the picture.
I agree, that a support vehicle shouldn't need its own support vehicle - even if you don't think about vehicle utilization, think about driver utilization.
I've never run Flxible ADB's (870, Metro) - so I'm not familiar with what's underneath. As Russ pointed out, the rear suspension (A-frame, cradle) were an interesting design - as early purchasers found out. That would suggest to me that the A-frame should be fully inspected for cracks. Knowing Queen City Metro, I'd expect no problems, but this bus comes from the vintage of A-frame crack fleet defects (Washington DC, New York City if I recall correctly).
You also have an advantage in your location - Flx's were built in Delaware, Ohio - northwest of Columbus - so you might be able to get in touch with some retired/former Flx employees.
Arthur
Thanks for everyones suggestions, concerns and ideas!
I completely agree that a support vehicle should NOT require a support vehicle! I thought that was a poor idea when it was first mentioned to me. Besides.. being an all volunteer department, what happens if you can;t get a second driver? ha-ha - That issue is something I plan to deal with very soon. Sure if feasible the extra small bus would be ok when additional climate controlled seating might be needed but in such a case.. then it can roll.. but not everytime, that is ludicrous.
I like the idea of removing the bus a/c and mounting a genset in that space. Plus from what I hear, removing the a/c unit will help lighten the rear end by upwards of 600 pounds or more. The initial thought was that when on-scene, the bus would remain running. But like several of you have said.. what if it's there for days or weeks.
This particular bus has already had all the seats removed. Queen City Metro completely reconditioned it in '86 with plans to convert it over for mobile office use so they gutted the inside and completely serviced it mechanically, then it sat other than routine starting and driving it around their lot. It has already been carpeted and the rear has seating for 6, 3 on each side. I plan to use both doors. Reason is that I want separate access to the room in back (interview/conference room for the sheriff, etc) and the bathroom on the right side of the door. The command center will be accessible from the front door as well as via a pass-through locking door in the bathroom.
If entering from the front door.. you have a lockable door entering the command center. If entering the back door, the interview/conference room would have a door on the left, bathroom door on the right. Of course as I said, a pass-through door will also go to the command center from the bathroom. The bathroom will be used not only for officials, but anyone on-scene needing restroom access so I wanted to keep it right at a door as suggested.
I had read about the odd design of the undercarriage of the 870 and the big sway arms towards the back going to the fuel tank area. Once we receive the bus, I will check into perhaps putting the black water tank over top of the fuel tank. I could put that tank inside and raise the toilet, but would prefer to have the tank underneath the bus. The fresh water tank(s) will be inside so I can keep them somewhat temperature controlled in the winter.
I greatly appreciate everyones input! It really helps me finalize a lot of details before it arrives.. hopefully soon before the cold snowy weather hits me.
Scott
Since I have an AMGeneral transit which is a close design to the 870, except to the rear suspension, I can tell you what I did. I took out the over the road heater/ air conditioning. I have 3 roof airs and can tell you they provide all the cooling you need. I have a 10kw Powertech Diesel generator installed next to the drivers seat like a front engine with the radiator remote mounted under the drivers seat. The 130 gal water tank is below the rear queen bed along with 2-10gal elec water heaters. The bathroom is on the right side of the bus around the rear door for access into the bathroom directly from the outside with the 85 gal gray water tank and the 45 gal black water tank under the floor.
All is able to be done since there is enough space under the 870. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on October 23, 2007, 01:48:11 PM
Since I have an AMGeneral transit which is a close design to the 870, except to the rear suspension, I can tell you what I did. I took out the over the road heater/ air conditioning. I have 3 roof airs and can tell you they provide all the cooling you need. I have a 10kw Powertech Diesel generator installed next to the drivers seat like a front engine with the radiator remote mounted under the drivers seat. The 130 gal water tank is below the rear queen bed along with 2-10gal elec water heaters. The bathroom is on the right side of the bus around the rear door for access into the bathroom directly from the outside with the 85 gal gray water tank and the 45 gal black water tank under the floor.
All is able to be done since there is enough space under the 870. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, was your OTR A/C mounted over the engine? There is a local transit that has the genset mounted over the engine. Kinda hard to get to to service, but it fits in that space great.
Richard
My OTR A/C & Heat was mounted under floor. Since it was Portland, Or bus, it only had heat working, even though the evaporator was installed (what a waste of money since it was never used). On my bus the condensor would have been mounted in front of the radiator, or above the engine. Your 870 setup is more like a RTS setup. I know several RTS owners that installed the generators above the engine in that space with good success. Then with three roof tops, would work well. Good Luck, TomC
Hi Fire Dept Nut
Get a copy of NFPA 1192, Standard on Recreational Vehicles. This has a lot of information on how all these systems are installed.
Paul
www.incredibus.com