hi again everyone
i hope im not asking too many question and being a pain in the butt,.....
for the life of me i cant figure out prices of buses...
ok ,i know if its all done up inside or fewer miles or new engine or a newer model etc etc it should be more money...
here another example...serious... does this make any sence???
is it not the same if one was buying a car,truck or what ever??
case in point
ebay right now there are two buses ,sold by the same guy
1993 mci mc 12 there are 6 bids ...$5,100...
now heres the kicker a older bus,that smokes a little but runs good 1987 mci 102 a3 9 bids...$6,601.00
i guess my question would be why are there more bids on a older bus (that smokes) than a newer(6 years) bus ? what am i missing here
both sold by the same guy,both mci buses,okay different models but ...
The MC12 is a 96 inch wide bus, the 102 is 102 inches wide. There have been a few problems with some of the MC12's catching fire. There may also be differences not posted that the seller has disclosed when contacted in person. The pricing of buses is a curious thing.
Since the repair costs of buses are so much greater than cars, the mileage of an engine/transmission can have a huge effect. A little bit of smoke on a Detroit Diesel is not necessarily a show stopper. Depends on if it smokes all the time or just on start up or.....
No matter what bus you think you want, have it inspected by a competent mechanic, a competent bus mechanic.
Enjoy the journey, it is a blast.
Frank
There are, as Frank stated, differences in bus's that a person may not know unless they are familiar with them. So your question is very valid!!!!!!
As far as buying a bus, ya might want to actually physically look some different ones over before you make a decision. AND make up a list of things you like, don't like want to do to it, what it needs to do for you, etc. Then post it and we will be glad to pick it apart and have fun at your expense!!!!
Just kiddin!!!!!!!!!!! (sorta) :D :D :D But that is the best way to go about it. Do your homework first. Actually, I think it's the funest homework you can do!!!
Just my .02
Chaz
Scottie, this isn't aimed "at" you, but really, just another opinion that all potential bus purchasers need to be exposed to. I'm by no means anywhere near as knowledgeable as 95% of the people on this or any other bus board, but on the other hand, I observe and listen, and there's a few points I'd like to make, in the hopes that I don't offend you or others who read this.
Ok, I know this is going to tick a few people off, (and please Frank, I'm not saying you're wrong or that he shouldn't listen to you), but I hear all the time about getting the bus inspected, and I think it's also important to note that having a bus inspected is no guarantee that you won't have problems. The same with the old "less than XXXX miles on a complete rebuild" line that exists in almost every for sale add. I've just read about too many people who had "new" rebuilds that either had problems right from the start, or their engine self-destructed extremely quickly. Once again this weekend I heard about a young man who did everything right, viewed the receipts from the overhaul, had the bus inspected by a Detroit shop and everything, only to blow the engine on his first trip with it. Turns out that the inspection wasn't really much of an inspection at all, and missed some major problems. . . problems that really should have been repaired at the time of the overhaul.
So, if you can find someone to inspect a potential purchase who you KNOW is going to do a good and thorough inspection, yet do it for a low enough price to not scare you away from having the next bus and the one after it inspected, (if the first one doesn't meet your needs), of course, that's great. On the other hand, if you're expecting to pay less than $200-$300 for an inspection, well, there's not way any operating shop could possibly do a thorough and complete inspection for that! You also have to have a good idea of what's acceptable to you and what's not. Small air leaks are common in older buses, but large ones could be a problem. If it's going to take you 3 or 4 or more years to do your conversion, well, don't worry about the tires now, because you'll be replacing them before you put it on the road anyway. How much smoke is too much smoke? How many oil leaks are too many leaks? If you find a bus that doesn't leak air, doesn't drip oil (yeah, right), doesn't smoke, runs great and moves down the road well, and it's in your price range, well, um, unless it's literally rusting in half, sounds like it is probably a good bus for you.
I watch people suggest that someone have an oil analysis done on a bus they are thinking about purchasing. If I were a seller, well, I'd just make sure I had new oil in any bus I were selling, even if I thought the engine was wore out, since then, an oil analysis would indicate little or no problems with that engine. Now, if someone had the oil analyzed regularly, for years, and presented you with those results, and the seller was trustworthy, well, that would show you a better picture of the engine's condition. . . course, if you trust him well enough to know that the analysis is really on that specific engine, shoot, then you trust him and you'll take his word on it. One random analysis shows you nothing for sure. It may make you feel good, so it does serve a purpose, but really, if you buy a bus, you'll feel good anyway. :D
Pretty much, from what I've seen and heard from other busnuts, on this and other boards, it's still, to a certain degree, a crap shoot and you just have to be prepared for anything. The most honest seller can have a bus with a great running engine, but that doesn't mean it can't blow up on the very next trip, or the one after that. And, if you're buying a 20 or 30 year old bus, man, there's all kinds of stuff that can go wrong and be expensive to fix. Plenty of guys on this forum take great care of their buses, and occasionally, one is going to blow an engine. He didn't know it was coming, I can guarantee you that!
I think if you absolutely can't afford to rebuild an engine or transmission, or replace all of the tires, you probably shouldn't be buying a bus. They are expensive to maintain compared to many other RV's, and VERY expensive to tow. If it takes every penny you have to buy the unit, you're living a dangerous life and are likely to find yourself broke down somewhere with no way to get it back home. I think you either have to have lots of money, or you need to really, really know a lot about these buses and the components that make them go, so that you don't end up making your life miserable.
Another thing, if you are buying a bus to convert, whether you pay $5000, or $8000, or even $10,000, you'll soon discover that those few thousand difference in price is really a drop in the bucket compared to what you will be spending to do a complete conversion, especially when you talk generators, inverters, wheels, etc. There are plenty of people who spent more on a generator than they spent on their shell!
Also, often, people are so gung-ho about converting, that they don't consider their options, which include buying a partially or completely converted bus. At current prices, it's pretty much holding true that the converted busses are selling for waaaaay less than the cost to convert one, and although many need updating, for a lot of newbies, updating a converted coach is going to be way less expensive and will allow them to enjoy using a bus right from the start. It's quite easy to update colors and finishes, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying plumbing fixtures and fittings, converters, inverters, wiring and lights, hardware, drawer slides, etc.
I tell you, using TempBus has really opened our eyes and changed some of our attitudes about our camping preferences and storage and electrical needs. Larry, who ALWAYS wanted to find a campground and hook ups, has come to appreciate the ease of approach and parking at a Flying J, ha ha. Two years ago, he wouldn't have even CONSIDERED running an a/c off of an inverter, but now, after having driven that big plate glass window into the the setting sun, he wants me to design the cabinetry to make sure he's got the option of an a/c unit, just for the driver's area, that can run off an inverter if necessary. Thank goodness we've had the opportunity to "test drive" a conversion before getting too far along on BigBus.
Anyway, just wanted to throw some stuff out in front of you and others, and keep in mind, this is just my opinion, but hey, someone's got to play the Devil's advocate, and what better person to play it than, well, a little Devil! 8) Christy Hicks
Christy, you have it exactly right. We bought our first bus partially converted. It was the way to go. We learned so much that we will apply to the second bus we have bought. From scratch is just too much for 90% of the newbies, us included, and we have a construction background.
I think that buying a used bus is about the same as buying a used car. It is a pig in a poke and you need a feel for people selling things. If it looks like a rat trap, you can bet the mechanical is even worse. If you go to see it and it isn't at least clean, it is junk. If the seller isn't outright proud of it, and wanting to show you every inch of it, then it's proabably junk. We paid a little too much for our first bus, but it was everything the seller said it was and more. He was a dealer just getting started selling on Ebay. Another big gamble. When we asked about getting it from Texas to California, he said he could have his driver deliver it. Good sign. If a seller wants you to arrange delievery, then he doesn't trust it to make the trip. At the time it was 114 F in Texas. He said he was afraid to drive it in that much heat across the desert, so he paid to have it towed to us. He said he didn't want to chance hurting "the good little engine" in it. After owning it for four year, we think it might actually be nearly new.
Just listen to the seller, they will tell you a lot, sometimes more than they intend. In our case, she gets hot, a common problem we fixed. If they won't drive it, then you don't want it.
Don and Cary
GMC4107
Scottie,
If you take any two busses, especially where you are looking, under $10-15,000, there could very easilly be a difference of $15,000 in what it would cost to get either one ready for a 3000 mile trip.
Listen to the guys on this board. Busses are expensive and if you are seriously looking at $5000 busses, you are in for a world of heartache.
I know from sad experience, it takes lots of CASH to do a bus, even on the cheap.
As much as I would rather have my old 4104 on the road, it was so much easier to go to the RV dealer and say "Where do I sign", and drive away in a motorhome.
Len
Christy speaks the truth.
MCI - more cash infused
GMC - get more cash
Prevost - french canadian for more cash
Eagle - out of business due to lack of cash
transits - government funded crap - worthless cash
Bus conversion - cashcashcashcashcash.
Run with the big dogs, or stick with a tent.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Christy,
I take no offense at all what you said. As you know I am still very new to bussing. Thanks for your post, it points out some very real facets of bus ownership.
Scotty,
There is an almost frightening amount of knowledge available to you on this board. Ask questions, lots of questions and look at every bus you can. If you find a bus you are seriously interested in, ask if any bus nut lives near the location. You might be able to get someone to look at it with you with more experienced eyes.
Most of all.....enjoy the insanity
Frank
Scottie -
W/o actually looking at the two eBay ads, I can share this with you:
MC-12s are a special order coach primarily for Greyhound. They're basically a 96A3 below the floor and an MC-9 from the floor up. That said, you need to understand that since Greyhound's numerous bankruptcies, their PM program has gone into the toilet. During their heyday, they had a maintenance department that was the envy of most transportation providers nationwide. Not so anymore.
Translation: The MC-12 is an ex-Hound that's been ridden hard and put away wet - VERY wet.
That explains the lack of, and lower, bids.
Keep doing your homework. . . you'll learn.
Oh, a suggestion: Do you have a charter bus outfit in your area? If so, it might be well worth buying the shop foreman lunch in exchange for his "war stories".
FWIW & HTH. . .
:)
A footnote, the prices you see on Ebay may not be the selling price. I sellbuses on Ebay. I have had buses go up over $10,000 in the last 5 minutes! I also sell buses before the auction ends when the person calls me up and makes me a buy now proce that I can live with. Point being, that you can not always relie on Ebay price that is shown. But buses are very safe and fun!!! They can be cheap if you want or as expensive as you want. You build it your way, your money, your time. Enjoy
Mike
I still haven't, the prices are always all over the map. Most often, everyone with a chunk of coal think they have a diamond. After several months of sitting on their unsold treasure, they get more realistic. Keep looking and learning so when a truly good deal pops up you can jump on it.
Good Luck,
Laryn
Every day here is a learning experience for me..The first actual bus we looked at had me so dazzeled I missed a ton of mechanical problems. If I haden't headed the advice of having a mechanic look at the bus first, I would have had a huge piece of metel in my driveway needing a ton of repairs (that of course i couldnt afford). I always cringe when I ask a question here because I know there is always the possibility of some "brutally honest" answers...but those answers have saved me from wasting my money so far....and are greatly appreciated..
One other tidbit of info....look at the "Reserve not met" banner. A bus may be indicating bids of $5K, but it ain't gonna move for less than the reserve price. Maybe. Often the large ticket items don't sell.
There's no problem with contacting a seller of an unsold item after an auction times out. You'll find yourself in a better position to negotiate.
As Russ says...most of the MC12s are hammered. Some older buses are nice, and some late coaches are a nightmare.
As long as you're a mechanic at heart, you can take an older, rust-free (relatively) bus and make it a good one. If you are not mechanically inclined...be very afraid of owning a bus.
Do you plan to park the bus in your yard? Be sure that you can do so. A good many areas have ordinances regarding large commercial vehicles.
Before buying a bus of any sort, or even bidding on a cheapo Ebay coach, you oughta go look at it. Be nice to find one close by...some of these "new bus road trips" turn into an expensive adventure.
I bought my bus from Sawyer's Bus Sales in Christiansburg, Va...check with a local towing company so that there wouldn't be any surprises if I ended up towing it most of the way. I didn't have to tow it. Also had road service on it before I picked it up. ;)
Those ads that state that the bus is ready to be driven anywhere...they may mean anywhere but here. They may honestly believe that statement...but often the dealer has no idea of crap repairs small coach operaters may have attempted.
Take the listing narratives with a grain of salt.
Good Luck, JR
On the other hand, prices on Ebay from apples to zebras have nothing to do with reality. The last one I saw when looking for a Brake Buddy. There was a new one w/warrenty for a buy it now price and free shipping. A used one sold for about $20 more plus $25 shipping!! Another used one sold for about half, these were all on at the same time? Why would someone pay $45 more for a used one with no warrrenty?
When trying to determine a value on something on ebay I check the completed items box. The items that show up in red did not sell, the items in green sold. With vehicles the number of no sales vs sales is shocking.
HTH Jim
hi
thank you all for the great advice.
im not sure if i should turn and run or keep looking lol .
i have only looked at 2 buses so far.
i think in my area most of the bus companies are running all new buses and have long sold off thier older ones.
what about companies that just sell older buses??
i have found 2 or 3 so far (all in the u.s)
there is one in vermont which is not too far and may make a good road trip some weekend.
another thing i notice ,any of the buses that are in my price range and still need to be converted all seam to be in cal/texas or just too far away to go take a look at...and of course anything fron the north east probably is very rustie!!
thanks again
all you people are great!!!
scottie
If you're dealing directly with the seller and he says, "I could get in this bus and drive it to Florida tomorrow...", providing it's up north somewhere....RUN to your car and LEAVE! I know from whence I speak...
NCbob
You also need to be aware of a bidding program called Snipe.
You determine the maximum you would pay for the item, regardless of the current bid and enter that amount. In the last few milliseconds of the bidding, this program will submit your bid, up to the maximum you have previously established, in the proper amount to beat any existing bids.
I really do not know what happens if two or three others are using it, but I guarantee that it has worked for me. The nice part of it is that although there is a charge for the program, you get to use it free the first time or two. I do not remember for sure.
Some people think it is cheating to use this, but for me, all is fair in love or war or when trying to buy something on eBay. LOL
Richard
Just enter snipe into your search engine to find several listings for free trial.
A running bus does not mean the bus is in good condition. I was able to drive my bus some 1,600 miles home with only an overheating issue, but it required major repairs once home. I had to have the brakes, exhaust pipe, and wheel bearings replaced. The mechanic I choose said I was lucky one of the tag wheels hadn't falled off since the bearings were so bad.
Scottie,
If you find a bus that is too far from home, and you are real interested in it, come here. Depending on where the bus is located, there may be a busnut close enough to at least give it a once over for you. I have done this several times, looking at buses in FL for "out-a-staters". Jack
thanks jack
thats a real nice offer!!
scottie
I would agree with what Christy and others said. I would add that unless you are the definition of DIY and you have had years of RVing under your belt, I would recommend you should shop for a converted bus.
That is what we did. We paid 11K for a converted bus to see if busing was for us. We learned what we liked, safe, rugged, made to last and what we really wanted for floor plan and how we really would use the bus. We found that we really like the 35' bus for it's maneuverability. Now we are a two bus family. One to convert the way we want it for retirement, and one to use.
If you are not willing and able to do most of the maintenance and repair for yourself you need to double or triple your bus budget.
The other thing you should know up front, buses are a horrible investment if you think you will make money selling one. The real payoff is the safety and the fact that they will outlast a lot full of S&S RVs.
Good luck
Quote from: JackConrad
Scottie,
If you find a bus that is too far from home, and you are real interested in it, come here. Depending on where the bus is located, there may be a busnut close enough to at least give it a once over for you. I have done this several times, looking at buses in FL for "out-a-staters". Jack
Jack is 100% right Scottie, don't be afraid to ask about getting a busnut in such & such area to look at a bus for you to see if it's worth your time, I know! I myself and many others such as Jack are always willing to help when able and will go and look one over for a potential buyer! Ken/Frank/Slow Rider (whichever alias he's using this week) was even luckier than that as he bought one I'd mentioned was for sale, in the chat room one evening that I've been servicing for about 5 yrs now & I also know the previous owner that donated it to the church he bought it from! So I was able to verify it was a mechanically sound base, to start with!
Also just because a bus is located in TX, FL or CA doesn't mean it's in good shape or even from there! Bus sales people are pretty clever, about moving them from east coast to southern or western sales lots to fool unsuspecting buyers! And they also move ragged out Mexican/TX buses up to Jersey/NE locations and sell them like hot cakes because of lack of rust, then the buyers find out about the rode hard, poorly maintained, south of the boarder rigged fixes, put away wet issues to late because they thought that because it was rust free it'd be in mechanically sound condition too!
WRONG!So beware sellers location does not guarantee that's where the bus spent most of life! Get the VIN # and any previous owner info you can. Then do searches and phone calls doing checks with previous owners to see when, where and what shape it was in when they got rid of it! There are several members here on the board that have great resources for some of this info!
And Christy and the others all have good advice here too! I especially want to agree with what Christy said about a blown engine! I sent our 102A3 out on a charter headed to NC which I would've sent it anywhere as I was confident it was in great shape with a 2yr old documented "Reliabilt*" engine. Well to make a long story short the engine cracked a head and locked up 100 miles from home and gave dad no warning at all something or anything was wrong until it just died all the sudden! So even a good running engine can blow with no warning even when taken good care of! Not trying to scare you off, just wanting to reemphasise what Christy said, it can happen! Also a DIY could do a good running take out a lot cheaper than we opted for since we use ours in every day revenue service. But a "new re manufactured engine" from American Fleet Services in Springfield, MO , re-maned starter, re-maned air compressor, re-maned alt, and OUR labor (no $ figured in) cost us $16,000.00 to get it back up and running in what I felt necessary shape for revenue service condition again! Now like I said a DIY could probably do it for about $5,000.00 with a good take out, but keep in mind ya get what ya pay for! OK I've rambled long enough, good luck in your search and if ya need any advice or whatever DO ask! Remember the only true dumb question is the one you wished you'd asked after it's too late! My 2 cents worth! ;D BK ;D
Wow :o What a bunch of great posts on this subject. I am still looking for a bus for myself. Now my brain is hurting. It is certainly not an easy choice to make with all the variables and options out there. On one hand I am thinking...buy the newest one I can afford....meaning a seated coach and convert it myself. I feel I am up to the task. On the other hand an older conversion, that I can use now makes sense too. There is a 70 Prevost Champion, I really like the look of that model, that I was thinking about a lil bit ago. Already converted but the owner sent me a quickie email saying it needs injectors. I have not looked at it yet. The good part about that one is there is a Prevost shop here in Stuart Fl,Liberty Coach, that can help out and a Detriot shop in Fort Pierce. I kind of like the newish MCI 102_3 series buses too....my heads spinning. ;)
We bought ours already converted and have never regretted it. We looked and looked for about 3 years at buses that were nice and over our budget, and at buses that were within our budget and a pieces of junk. I will add to the chorus here about listening to the current owner. They will tell you a lot.
KEEP LOOKING! We found our baby after it did not sell on Ebay. I thought it would be a nice bus but the pics were terrible and there was not much of a description. Turned out the owner was not particularly computer literate and a little hesitant about selling anyway. We talked on the phone and then made a trip for look see.
When we arrived, we were struck by the owners very well kept house & grounds but saw no bus. They chatted with us for a while & looked us over very carefully. Presently, the owner said, "Well, I guess you would like to take a look at the bus"....
I had the distinct feeling WE were being interviewed to see if we would be allowed to own his baby.
We walked to the back of his farm and found a huge barn. When he opened the doors he said the bus had not been started for about six months and it would probably be hard to start. He turned on the battery disconnect and hit the starter. It fired right up with little smoke!
After pulling out into the sunlight, he proceeded to show us how to keep the stainless polished, what kind of wax he used on the paint, who the mechanic was that did the maintenance, how to maintain the floors, and about 3 hours of other related information. After the detailed story, I don't think he could have made all that stuff up AND the bus showed his pride of ownership.
We stole bought it for well under our budget and have driven it ever since with just a few upgrades and almost no problems.
KEEP LOOKING! Investigate anything even close to what you want. You will find "your baby" sooner or later.
Have Fun!
TOM