Guys I need your opinions, am I crazy here?
I was supposed to have a 45 foot MCI towed last night, about a 600 mile trip, on a Landall trailer because the suspension is burned. I hire someone who claims to be an expert in towing buses, has been doing heavy hauling for many years.
This person shows up at midnight, instead of 6pm, to pickup the bus, with a landall with a 38 foot lower deck, which would have left the front 7-8 feet of the bus hanging off the back of the trailer. When I questioned the hauler he said "we'll just crib it up with blocks and chain it down, no problem". I disagreed but asked if they would give me some sort of agreement in writing, in case the bus fell off the trailer and started some tragedy, so that I wouldn't be held responsible. Well, long story short, they refused to give me any sort of paperwork for the haul, not even a contract for the haul and left me high and dry. Now they are trying to charge me $700 for their lost time and expenses.
Am I crazy here? I informed the hauler ahead of time that it was a 45 foot EL3, they knew the route, supposedly obtained permits and all, but didn't put it together that a 45 foot bus wouldn't fit on a 38 foot trailer. Besides that, from the time they originally estimated the haul, they pretty much doubled the cost.
Now their contention is that I caused the problem by insisting they take responsibility for any damage to the bus, but since it was burned already, they would take no responsibility whatsoever, even if it fell off the trailer and caused an accident. They said the frame might be weak and collapse in transit and that wouldn't be their fault. My response of course was "it probably would if you tried to hang one third of it off the back of the trailer". Also, eventhough they should be responsible for any damage to the bus while in their care, I didn't ask for that, I asked for them to prove they have liability insurance in case of an accident.
Oh well, life goes on, I found a reputable company to do the haul.
Opinions?
Todd
Isn't anyone going to chime in with their thoughts?
Liability is a funny thing. Once a chucklehead puts yer bus on his trailer and tows it, it it his responsibility to make sure it is safe. He gets the ticket, he gets found at fault in an accident, if it falls off or whatever. Just my $0.02 worth of course....but I did spend a night at a Holiday Inn Express.
let them try to get the money out of you. obviously a 45 foot bus won't fit on a 38 foot trailer.
would be easy to get statements supporting that I would expect.
on the other hand, Liabilty for load stability is on the driver and the transport company not you
My thoughts...
Tell them to go screw themselves.
Don't know what the wheelbase of the EL3 is, but if they couldn't get the bus on the trailer with both front and rear wheels on the trailer, then they obviously had the wrong trailer, and didn't know what the hell they are doing, and you're better off without them.
As for the insurance, if they couldn't produce some proof of liability, there's probably a reason for it.
I don't think it's unreasonable to require the towing company to be be responsible for damages should their load fall off and kill someone. After all, they are supposed to know what they're doing, aren't they?
As for the $700, let them sue you for it. Turn it over to a decent attorney, and it will take care of itself.
Liability is a funny thing. Once a chucklehead puts yer bus on his trailer and tows it, it it his responsibility to make sure it is safe. He gets the ticket, he gets found at fault in an accident, if it falls off or whatever. Just my $0.02 worth of course....but I did spend a night at a Holiday Inn Express
well yes and no. while they are theoreticaly liable in todays world odds are good that you will be sued also because you hire them. while you may not be found at fault it can cost lots in time and money. basically, if you are not comfortable with what they are doing find someone else.
I have friends who have been through this while transporting boats and cars. it wasnt fun.
steve
Todd,
Glad you didn't have the first company do it! Sounds like a unreliable company to do business with. An appointment was made and not kept. That is the first sign.
Let us know how you came out on the "Reputable Company".
Paul
One little minor point.......maybe points.
If the guy shows up and you only have an estimate ....probably not a contract or implied contract still in negotiations.
If you had an agreed price and they changed the price after agreement than they voided the original contract.
Not a lawyer......but JMHO. A lawyer may cost you more than the $700 depending on how short sighted they are
we know they were short sighted with the 38 ft trailer.
FWIW
Skip
Good points Skip, luckily my best friend is a trial attorney and would enjoy such an endeavor. I am hoping to just let this settle peacefully.
A good comment was made by the new tow company driver "that guy obviously rode the short bus to school, maybe he thought that's what he was picking up". Not PC, but still funny.
From what I've been told from several good & competent towing guys that the towing company is accepting total responsibility once they pick the load, after all they are the paid professionals presenting themselves as experts in towing.
You were wise to question their responsibility. I did with the guy that hauled 3 of my scenicruisers. He asked what they were worth - we discussed their age & uniqueness & the probability that it would take a while to find another. Bruce nodded & said that's why he had insurance & that was all there was to it.
Just for grins, have your trial lawyer buddy write up a letter to rattle the first towing co's cage.
Mention the lost time while waiting on them & the extra cost incurred to get a competent hauler in, etc.
You just may sober those idiots up & do the next guy a favor.
QuoteJust for grins, have your trial lawyer buddy write up a letter to rattle the first towing co's cage.
Mention the lost time while waiting on them & the extra cost incurred to get a competent hauler in, etc.
You just may sober those idiots up & do the next guy a favor.
I like that! Do it!
You did the right thing by sending them packing.
Laryn
It would be like having a mover show up to move a five bedroom house across the country, and all he brings is a 12' box truck. you look at him and say it ain't gonna fit buddy. Then he looks you in the eye, and says with a grin, what won't fit inside we'll tie to the roof, to the sides, and on the back after we close the door, and if there is anything left after that you can put the rest in your car.
" I DON'T THINK SO "
You made the right decision, I go by my gut feelings, if it don't feel right it probable ain't.
WVaNative
Reminds me of a famous movie back in the 70's. One guy says to the other, "You're gonna need a bigger boat." The second guy
ignores him, and, well, you all know the outcome.
Now, think of that trailer as the boat, and your EL3 is the shark.
We'll call you Quint!
In the real world a 6 hour delay in transportation is not unacceptable.
I guess none of you ever hauled 12 foot 2x4's in a 8 foot bed? Just put a red flag on it and go.
Sure, we've all hauled lumber longer than our vehicle, but it isn't going to hurt the lumber.
If this was steel beams instead of a bus I don't think anybody would care that they stuck out longer than the trailer. A bus is a different story, especially if all of the wheels are not on the trailer.
I guess I do not see what the problem was, if all the wheels were on the trailer. Why would it even need cribbing?
Richard
Quote from: captain ron on September 13, 2007, 06:18:50 AM
I guess none of you ever hauled 12 foot 2x4's in a 8 foot bed? Just put a red flag on it and go.
Not me, they were 16 footers in a nissan short bed - My foolish youth ;)
I hauled 20 ft 1x4's on a Harley a couple years ago. ??? what was I thinking?
Quote from: captain ron on September 13, 2007, 11:01:56 AM
I hauled 20 ft 1x4's on a Harley a couple years ago. ??? what was I thinking?
Hey y'all, watch this!
It's a short trip, I'll just go slow.
Damn, didn't look that long in the store.
Or, my favorite -
I should have brought the bus.
Being new to buses I need some more info. Could someone address Richards question please? I understand the hesitation of having your bus be longer than the tow truck ( fear of being hit from the rear). But other than collision, what is the danger to the bus if it is properly secured to the tow vehicle? Please school me as one day I might be in the same situation and I want to be able to intelligently explain myself.
Thanks,
Frank
Frank.
1. From other research I have done, one item I found out is a bus can structurally be damaged if towed improperly.
2. A 38' trailer with 7 to 8 feet hanging over the end would leave the shoring up on the bottom of the
bus with at best the front wheels not carrying significant load. Though an over exageration it
would be like jacking your bus up behind any structural support. (I do believe there would be some buckling)
Buses are by designed to have specific load points and to do elsewhere can cause structural damage.
Just not worth the risk
JMO
Skip
If the rear wheels of the bus aren't on the trailer - well duhhhhh! ;D
Even if the rear wheels are on the trailer but are behind the trailer wheels, you would probably grossly overload the trailer tires - never a good idea. Trailer tires are usually treated with contempt, especially with all the curb crawling activity they get.
If the CG of the bus is to far back on the trailer, it will escallate small problems to HUGE problems when it comes to handling.
I think you guys need to read the original post again, or maybe I mis-interpreted it. Here is what he said:
QuoteThis person shows up at midnight, instead of 6pm, to pickup the bus, with a landall with a 38 foot lower deck, which would have left the front 7-8 feet of the bus hanging off the back of the trailer.
Therefore there was no plan to have the engine in the rear as some have suggested.
The 7 or 8 feet (a guess) of the front hanging over the rear of the trailer would have caused no problem as long as all the wheels were on the trailer as I indicated in my first post:
Quoteguess I do not see what the problem was, if all the wheels were on the trailer. Why would it even need cribbing?
I think he owes this first company the money.
Richard
Richard, My front axle is less than 6 feet (5' - 9 3/4") from the front bumper. That would mean the front wheels had nuthing but air under them. do you think this cowboy would have bothered to chain up the axle?
You can do what ever you like with your stuff, that is the benefit of owning it - you get to decide, in theory. . . ;D
While re-reading the first post, the biggest issue I saw was the tow company's refusal to accept any & all responsibility for further damages they may cause by cribbing it up.
The piss poor attitude of the driver is what would have had me concerned. If the tow driver doesn't care enough to take the time to calm my fears & concerns, do you think he will give a damn about my treasure that he sees as junk?
When my buses were towed, Bruce treated them as though they were multi million dollar rv's. Made a huge difference to me!
So, I don't think that towing company deserves anything, 'cept no business.
Guys, the bus was to be loaded @$# first, leaving the front 7 or 8 feet hanging off the back of the trailer, meaning the wheels would be no where near sitting on any part of the trailer. It would have looked like it was teetering off of a cliff. The hauler said "we'll crib it where the bulkhead is, but in my head scratching, that bulkhead he referred to, would have still be in the air behind the trailer.
Is was a monkey-fest from square one. He said right from the start "they sent the wrong trailer" and then tried to make it work due to the investment of time and fuel they had in it. In my summation, they finally realized how f-d up their plan was that they decided to blame me, on the fact that I wanted them to be responsible for thier actions.
I spoke to the owner of the towing company and he said the driver told him that I wanted a complete liability statement "for scratches, dings or cracked windows" which of course I never mentioned or asked for. I've had over a dozen buses towed, I always expect some damage, eventhough it's rarely happened.
Bottom line, they saw the err in their ways and looked for an excuse to head home.
Thanks for all the opinions though,
Todd
Kyle, re-read my post. It was based on the assumption that all wheels would be on the trailer. Otherwise, coach converter did the proper thing in refusing the tow, as I would have done also. Nowhere, except in the last post, did he indicate that the front wheels would be off the trailer.
Richard
Thank you for my continuing education......
Frank
Hey Richard, I don't need to re-read your post, I got it the first time.
I was trying to point out why I understood from the start that wheels would be in air. Ain't many highway buses with more than 8 feet of front overhang. ;D
- unless the operator loaded it nose first, then maybe not, some Eagles had the tag in front of the drive. . .
It seemed to me that you assumed the wheels were on the trailer & I understood that they weren't, & that was my attempt at pointing that out. that's all.
I may be in the minority, but I believe the paid expert is responsible for asking the right questions to KNOW what tools to bring AND is also responsible for whatever it is he may damage from his actions. UNLESS exceptions are pointed out by the hauler up front.
Scratches & dings are one thing, but there is no excuse for blowing smoke to hide a screw-up!
I could not agree with you more. I would guess that my eagle was 6 feet from the front wheel to the bumper, but I never really measured it. What really confused me was he never indicated in any way that the wheels would have been hanging over the back.
Richard
"which would have left the front 7-8 feet of the bus hanging off the back of the trailer"
FWIW
Skip
Quote from: maria-n-skip on September 13, 2007, 04:59:00 PM
"which would have left the front 7-8 feet of the bus hanging off the back of the trailer"
FWIW
Skip
And that apparently included the front axle which he neglected to mention. I think everyone would know that you could not transport the bus with the front axle not supported on the trailer.
It is not at all unusual to see an equipment trailer going down the road with six or eight feet of the equipment hanging off the back. Always with all the wheels on the trailer however.
Richard
Do they have your signature on any paperwork? Did they tape record your original conversations or advise you that they were going to tape record your conversations. If not, then I would lack recollection or suffer " I cannot recall" syndrome regarding any and all conversations with anyone from the incompetent tow company and that it was purely accidental that they showed up to offer their services of which you politely declined.
Have a great day!
UBNLDC
United busnuts legal defense counsel, LLP
Nope no signatures or anything, just a lot of shuckin' and jivin'
I'm glad it all worked out this way, I had a well respected company that I've worked with before pick the bus up last night, due here in a few hours.
I would have used them in the first place, but this other person was supposed to work on it for me, so I was trying to wrap the deal together.
Live and learn I suppose...
I certianly hope you are finding someone else to work on it!
Grant...
I thought "I don't recall" only worked in the senate :)
Skip
Skip,
I didn't think anyone or thing actually worked in the senate :o ;D ::) ;D ;)
Yes, the bus arrived at my shop tonight, very professionally done. The driver managed to load it by himself and unload it himself with zero damage, full liability coverage and for about $1k less than the first jokers.
The company is Aber's Towing in Ashland OH, they'll go anywhere in the country and I can't speak highly enough of them, used them twice now.
http://www.aberscrane.com/
1-419-289-1741
Thanks
Todd
I know Abers and they are a high dollar outfit that has been in business for many years. But I don't believe they hauled anything cheaper, I think your just trying to make someone look worse in your post or ruffle feathers. Even if they were cheaper (which I don't believe) was it a mile for mile deal? This thread should die as there are 2 sides of every story and the other side probably has a very different account of what happened.
Ron,
Do you know something we don't? You came across a little hard on coachconverter, whats up?
Laryn
Yeh really.
Actually, the haul was a couple hundred miles further and was about $1000 cheaper. The Facts
The post can die, that's fine. I just wanted to pass on contact information for a reputable hauler, which I think we can all benefit from finding someone that others have had good luck with.
Did that make sense, forgive me, I'm switching to Sanka
Unfortunately, there seems to be little if any standards set for pricing in the towing industry, we've seen this time and time again over my career in law enforcement. The prices quoted seem to be at the mercy of the driver and mood he's in at the time, reputatable outfits seem to try to be consistant or somewhat in how they base their charges but the actual driver seems to have the final say based on what he encounters when he arrives at the scene. I've seen a couple of times where a "nuisance" fee has been attached simply because of the difficulty of the tow. I feel that a reputable towing service should be experienced enough to know what is needed and can quote an appropriate price for the job based on the information given at the time of the call, but as always the human element can come into play and some of the lesser quality outfits think they have you over a barrel and might try to take advantage of it, your option is to send them on their way and get a better one. I've seen outfits give price breaks and others overcharge.