After reading Dreamscape thread on his refrig a question came to my mind.
My current propane plumbing is copper and rubber gas hose. I am thinking of replacing the copper.
What are the current thoughts what to use for propane lines?
Skip
Copper tubing has taken a drastic jump in price but is still one of the best ways to plumb LP, one of the new systems is a Pex line, it is flexible and seems to work well but I'm not comfortable with the connectors yet, you have to be very careful and get a tight fit, I've always used copper and flare fittings, those I can do lol.
Regardless of the material you choose to use, I recommend a manifold systems with shut off valves and individual runs to each appliance. Makes it easier to troubleshoot and if you do develop a leak, it can be isloated and the rest of the appliances remain usable.
Len
From Propane tank regulator or as close as possible use Black pipe to your appliances or as close as possible and then copper tubing to the appliances. Check all joints with SOAPY water using a paint brush to apply soapy water to joints. A manifold system is highly recommended with shut off valves going to each appliance.
Len is absolutely right, be sure to be able to isolate each line with shut offs.
Len, Good idea! I will include that in my replumb.
Cody, do you double flair your copper tubing?
Eagle, I was thinking of black pipe for the straight long runs through the bulk heads.
Skip
One of the things to watch for if your using black pipe is to properly support it at regular intervals, black pipe is rigid and sometimes doesn't like being bounced down the road, this can be minimized by supporting it, all gas lines should be supported at least at 30 inch intervals but black pipe is more critical to do so. And checking each fitting with soapy water will find leaks, if it's got a leak it will bubble when you spray the soapy water on it, propane detectors are also a good idea, they will warn you of a leak. It's also a good idea to vent your propane tank compartment to the outside, and keep a fire extinguisher close by, it's worth it to be a little cautious here. More and more, people are going to the Pex lines, it seems they are much more forgiving of road movement but they need to be supported properly too.
Cody,
Thanks for the support parameters.
I am running pex for the water......red white and blue......Shouldn't propane be orange?
I know in the Natural gas realm splices and joints have a special compression tool and are highly compress together
alot more sturdy than the normal water fittings and band clamp.
I certainly wouldn't want anyone to confuse a water line for a gas line.
Skip
Coming from California I thought they required black pipe. They say copper is not good. I don't have a link to prove it though.
I plan to run black pipe with shut offs at all appliances, stubbing up with flex to each unit. Was not aware of using Pex, will look into it. Only planning to run to refer. and stove.
Is there a code that says what to use?
Paul
Since the stove and furnace are my only propane appliances, they are both right next to each other with the propane tank directly below. I have an electric solenoid (gas approved) after the hand valve on the tank. I only turn on the gas when needed. Also have a gas detector inside next to those appliances. Personally don't like propane-have seen many an RV burn up because of a gas leak. Being heavier than air, the gas can pool before it reaches an open flame. Always be careful and fully support the gas lines. Good Luck, TomC
It takes a little practice to get a good flare but the tools are inexpensive and I've had good luck with them, I leave about 1/8 inch of tubing sticking out of the tool when I clamp it on the tubing and make sure the flaring tool is centered in the tubing, if you have it at an angle you will get an uneven flare or crack one of the sides of it so it does take a little practice to get it right. The only tools you'll need for it are a flaring clamp, it's a double bar arangement with a pivot on one end, it has several size holes along it for different size tubing, you clamp the tubing in it, the flaring tool fits over the clamping tool with the flaring point inside the tubing, it has a handle that you turn and it turns down into the tubing expanding it onto the flared opening of the clamp, the tubing is cut to length with a tubing cutter that has a wheel that you turn around the tubing and it cuts a groove into the sidewall, that way it doesn't crush the tubing and cuts it off straight. Different states have different codes so you should check to see what your state requires
Cody,
When I referred to double flair. There is a little nubbin type insert that one uses to create a role on the end
of the flair...........I mostly used that set up for building steel brake lines.
TomC,
As usual your conversion is a lesson in efficiency. My propane tank is inside a box with vent holes in the bottom to the outside.
I mean that in a good way for you posts always teach.
Skip
That sounds like a compression fitting, do you mean where you place the fitting over the tubing and then a small ring over the tubing and tighten it onto the connector?
You do your normal flair with a little bit more sticking out then you place the nubbin on the pipe and retighten down.
It rolls the tubing to create that small donut around the edge.
Skip
Not familier with that technique, I've always just used the single flare.
Quote from: cody on September 07, 2007, 09:17:16 AM
Not familier with that technique, I've always just used the single flare.
There is a double flare tool available. It is well worth purchasing and should be used on all high pressure lines, such as brake lines and for lines carrying explosive gases such as propane. Compression fittings should not be used for this application.
Richard
Sometimes terms can be confusing depending on you industry std. or the area your in - technically both flared and ferruled fittings are "compression" fittings - I just mention this cause I've been lax before in not being specific as to what I meant HTH
Is PEX really approved for propane use? Are you sure that this really isn't CSST? (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing)
My travel trailer used black pipe under the trailer and then copper tubing to the appliance. I can't remember if the black pipe or the copper went through the floor.
When using black pipe (my recommendation) every time you do a 90 degree turn, use two street-L 90's instead of one single L ... IE one goes "up" then the second one goes "over", instead of just one fitting to make that same turn. This way the joint has an extra degree of freedom if it gets pushed, pulled, or twisted by the bus doing the same as you drive. It makes for a very flexible and much less breakable system...
I went out to the NFPA (national fire protection asscosiation) which works closely with UL.
It appears that all their standards are purchase only with UL numbers to boot.
They have info on RV's and RV parks. FWIW
The one thing I did find out is that rubber hoses have a max length of 5 feet and must be stainless wire wrapped and/or
non-corrosive to the gases used. In reading the committee reports I get the sense that less fitting used the better. FWIW
Brian, now I am confused I guess it will require more research. I'll ask my soninlaw sense he lays natural gas lines for
a living. Maybe he has some standards manuals.
Skip
Skip, the thing I didn't see mentioned was the fact that you shouldn't use teflon tape on the black iron, or on anything used in a gas system.
Ed
Thanks Ed,
I hadn't thought/known about that. What about pipe dope....? non-teflon?
Skip
Guys,not trying to rain on your parade but for years George Myers has been doing articles on propane starting in 1997 in the bus conversions magazine some of you may not have the magazine from that far back but if you have the issues from June 2006 he tells your where to get the code book and what issues of the magazine to look for other articles about propane he has written.also you can purchase his book on the topic and he goes into detail with photos.I don't think MAK will mind if i tell you can buy Georges book.one great thing if you do it right there wiil not be a 40,000 lb bomb going down the highway and your family will be safe. have a great day
If I recall correctly, I don't believe compression fittings are allowed on copper LP lines. You must use flare fittings. If you have an issue of Bus Conversions Magazine. George Myers has an ad in it every month. His ad will be listed in the advertisers index as Epic Conversions. Jack
PS: If you don't have an issue of Bus Conversions Magazine, you need to subscribe. Just click on the center banner at the top of this page.
Jack seems to be right in regards to compression fittings, a call to our local gas supplier, the service man told me that here in Michigan compression fittings are not considered code for gas connections, he recommended flare fittings.
There is a "special" dope for black pipe fittings. It comes in a stick.
Fred Mc.
Fred thanks.
Luvrbus..Your not raining on our parade when questions go out and info to other sources is always good!
I am a little torqued that the association that helps set the standards charges for everything. Here you have
a board of engineers, Moterhome manufacturers, national rv park corporations etc etc. And they charge you for their
standards that feed UL. It is the same association mentioned in George's book. I believe the last release is 2002
with 10 revisions. Reading the committee reports is really boring but have the most up to date changes!
Ok I'm of the soap box.
Jack...I do have a subscription and like other granddaughters mine likes to eat the Eagle pictures too:)
Skip
I used CSST. It's a little expensive, but sure makes for a nice installation. Used rubber wrapped stainless hanger straps to support it and rubber grommets where it passes through the bulkhead. I welded some brackets to my black pipe risers to go through the floor, and brazed brackets on some brass tees to mount them to the bulkhead. Has been working well for 3 or 4 years. I use an electric solenoid at the tanks, and have manual shutoff valves at each end of the line. I only use propane on the range and for outdoor cooking, so the installation was somewhat overkill, but it sure works well.
I just the other day installed natural gas in my home. I installed "black" pipe and I used teflon tape on the connections....per code. The teflon tape for gas is EIGHT DOLLARS A ROLL AND IS YELLOW. Not the white stuff we use for water, but it is teflon. The meter installation jockey used teflon paste. I think the paste is better as I had to really torque on my fittings to get them to quit bubbling. But then I had the system pressurized to 125psi for the test. Hels that without a quivver for 5 days and then I called for an inspection. The inspector gasped at the meter and said you are only supposed to pressurize it to 15 pounds. He flunked me cause my meter was graduated to 5 pound increments and he needed one pound per line on the scale. Oh, well! Next day he showed up and pressurize the line to 15 pounds and and waited ten minutes to sign off on the installation. Who knew? 15 pounds fo ten minutes...who knew?
My original lp in the S&S was double flared and had a seperate line to each appliance.....5 lines total. I wanted to clean things up and got three ganged on one line and two ganged on the second. Made ferrel compression fittings and had it all run so neat it needed pictures. Kept having to go back and retighten the fittings as I kept getting "new" bubbles. DO NOT DO AS I HAVE DONE!!!!! Never use those ferrel fittings as they start leaking if you torque the line. NEVER gang the appliances....seperate run for each cause you can only terminate the line in a "double flared" fitting at the appliance. There can be no splices in the run of any sort. I don't know if this is the code but it should be a minimum. Got this from some very reliable RV service techs and supervisors.
Double flares are less prone to failure due to cracking at the flare. Required for brakes and should be required for gas if it isn't and I think it is a requirement.
John
As a point of interest, copper piping is prohibited in California code for natural gas connections. I do not know if that applies to propane or not.
I had an inspector in Pasadena turn down my installation of a bathroom heater because I used copper line for the connection. If it is not good enough for natural gas, then I would not use it it for propane. BTDT
Richard
check gumpy's website, I would prefer what he did if i was doing it. seemed easier to work with too.
Search the archive, there was a interesting thread IIRC awhile back on this subject. may have been on the old board.
oops, typed this last night, fell asleep and posted it this morning, sorry for the redundancy ::)
Copper is used for most indoor natural gas here in Minnesota. I don't know why California is different. I'll probably use CSST in my bus.
I believe it has something to do with the odor they add to the gas reacting to the copper. I do not know if this same material is put in propane.
Richard
I do not know what is added to NG, but they add Mercaptin to LP. Without it, LP is odorless. Jack
Talked to my soninlaw last night...
They (power company) currently use polyethylene (sp) and heat fuse all joints. It is yellow the
old stuff is orange. A few years back I watched the comp. splice an orange pipe from a backhoe oops!
he had a hand press to attach the pipe to the fitting and a big clamp ring set-up.
I've had to deal with copper in the past and it seems that when copper gets old it tends to get brittle
not a scientific claim just what I saw.
Single runs to each appliance. I'll think about that one....
Skip
Skip,
The S&S I had had a single 1 inch run of black pipe down the center of the coach. It had numerious "T"s where copper would take off for the appliance. It wasn't single runs from the propane tank as I may have implied. I think the objective was to hold the joints in the copper to an absolute min. (ie ZERO). I went back to that as it only takes one slow leaker to create a bad memory in the least. In a bus, I think I would take the advice of this board and make a manifold and "do" run seperate gas runs of copper with a valve for each at the manifold. Works for water. The electric master cutoff is a must have for summer nights and leaving the coach.
My thoughts,
John
I was installing an awning or something on a S/S once and was drilling a hole thru the side. With my good luck, I drilled a hole into the black iron pipe carrying gas to the reefer. What a bitch to repair that.
Richard
Richard, Can't really hoha on that. I basically did a like move on mine last weekend......
No gas and copper........So yep I'll be doing some plumbing.
John Ed I was considering running two main black pipe one down each side.
Drivers side furnace and generator.
Passenger side Refrig, hot water, and furnace.
With what has been said I am rethinking.........oh the :)
Skip
Skip,
That would work just fine and in my limited experience that is the way it is usually done. From what Gumpy Dog said his "trunk" line then has black iron feeders that run right up to the appliance. Mine and most go to the appliance from the trunk with copper as there are usually a lot of bends and angles. I think the seperate run design with a valve for each appliance run located at the manifold is "fancy". It would come in handy if you needed to remove an appliance and still keep the gas available as then you need plugs for the appliance you are removing.
Good luck and send pics,
John
Here in Maryland they changed the code to allow only black pipe & the corrugated SS (brand name Gastite). They said they quit allowing copper because thieves were stealing it & selling it. That actually happened in Cambridge. A contractor had piped the entire house and the gas company came out, checked and passed the installation, turned on the gas & left. That night, we (the fire company) got a call for "odor of gas in the area". When we got on location we found thieves had ripped out all the copper and not even shut off the gas. We had to evacuate several blocks.
All I had to say about that was it's a shame the thieves didn't smoke........ >:(
Quote from: JohnEd on September 08, 2007, 07:11:08 PM
... From what Gumpy Dog said his "trunk" line then has black iron feeders that run right up to the appliance.
I should have been more clear. I used black pipe to go from the CSST up through the floor. Then I put on a shutoff valve, and used flaired copper
to go from the shutoff valve to the connection up in the stove.
On the other stub, I put on a shutoff valve, and brass fittings to install a quick disconnect for the camp stove.
On our bus I went with the CSST(gastite) like 'Gumpy' did and used his advice on the subject.I did the one night certification course at the local plumbers wholesale shop,then plumbed the propane on the bus with CSST(gastite).I have runs going to the stove,furnace,hot water heater and the fridge.No blackpipe or copper on our bus for the propane. ;D
Tim
I found a few more photos that show the two stubs off the CSST, including the black pipe through the floor. I've added them to the web page at http://www.gumpydog.com/bus/MC9_WIP/Propane_Distribution/propane_distribution.htm (http://www.gumpydog.com/bus/MC9_WIP/Propane_Distribution/propane_distribution.htm).
craig
Great looking work Gumpy!
Great idea on propane delivery. Looks much easier than black pipe too.
Thanks for the heads up.
Paul
Craig,
The missunderstanding is probably mine and you were probably crystal clear. I have never heard of CSST and I am sure that if you are using it it must be A-OK. I was surprised to learn that the gas pressure in my house was .5psi or less. I told the installer that I had believed all these years that the psi was 125. He surprised me and said I was right about the pressure but that was the main feed line before the regulator. When he said that I remembered that I had read the pressure off of a gauge in the main gas line in the steele mill.
in Pa. And heard it quoted by the FD after a gas fire nearly destroyed a building.
Thank you, Sir,
John
Well I learned alot so far on the thread.
Gumpy the work you do is nice and so clean....I wished I could even keep my tools
that organized.
Thanks
Skip