Since the 4501 fan club managed to hijack the thread about the slide out in a GM & it didn't quite go the way I wanted I'll try again. What have you done on your bus that someone told you was impossible? I'll start with I have windows blanked out with fiberglass cloth and resin. Though a poster said they'd fall out in 500 miles they have gone over 3000 without a crack or wrinkle.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
I'm sorry, Jerry. I guess that is my fault for mentioning something that people say can't be done in a GM bus... Like raising a Scenicruiser.
The only things I have ever done on a bus that people said were impossible were all after shows back in the 80s. But again, I think that would just lead your thread off in a different direction and I should probably let those stories die anyway. ;)
But seriously, I think this is a great idea for a thread and can't wait to see the comments people make. From reading the start of the other thread, I didn't get that this was what you wanted. It just seemed more like a statement that led people to start conversing.
I personally have not done anything, but raising the roof or installing a slide out isn't impossible-just have to fully support the vehicle while the work is done since the support system will be off line while doing the job. I have seen Eagles stripped down to the frame and widened 6" and lengthened 5ft. I have a AMGeneral transit, and another fellow put a 4ft (the amount it slides) on the left wall that required alot of reinforcing (he also has a R&M front end on the bus-using a MC9 windshield-which I think looks weird since the MC9 windshield is for a 96" and his bus is 102" wide. Makes for big intrusion on the corners and he has about a 5" wide center pillar-too much interference with vision-in my opinion). I also saw one gentlemen take a Flxible transit and put a cargo box on the rear section where he loaded his dirt track racer over the rear engine! Good Luck, TomC
I put in an electonic dash in the bus out of a 96 Navstar and married it up to a mechanical engine. People at Navstar thought I was NUTS
Ron
I fit 330 gals of tanks for water and waste, along with a 13kw sound boxed generator and the hot water heater all in one bay. Leaving two full bays open for toys. Fit batteries and wabasto type heater and inverter in other nooks.
I had six 70 gallon tanks (420 gallon) for fresh, gray and black water, dump valve, 20 gallon water heater, two water pumps and two stage water filter in one bay.
Richard.
Quote from: H3Jim on August 26, 2007, 12:59:59 PM
I fit 330 gals of tanks for water and waste, along with a 13kw sound boxed generator and the hot water heater all in one bay. Leaving two full bays open for toys. Fit batteries and wabasto type heater and inverter in other nooks.
My 4104 has a white vinyl roof "that will come off for sure"!
The toilet drains through two elbows with very little slope across the bus to the waste tank on the other side "won't work" with never one problem.
I heat the whole bus with two portable LP heaters "that will not work and will cause too much condensation" . Have used them two years with absolutely no problems. I hook them to 20lb LP tanks with a hose, the small 1 lb tanks don't last very long.
When I'm in an RV park I use two portable electric heaters from WM, work fine.
I charge both house and start batteries with the engine alternator. Sometimes at the same time and sometimes separately, depends on how I use them. Never a problem. No inverters, isolators or complicated remote switches. There is a separate cutoff switch on each of four GP 31 batteries.
This bus is fun!
I convinced my wife that buying a 22 year old, forty foot, 30 ton piece of stainless steel was a perfectly sain thing to do! And to spend several years, and several thousands of dollars to make it the perfectly good RV.!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
O.K, I decided to polish the entire bus on my own (5 month project) and place a 24kw air cooled diesel generator in a bay. Also took an industrial hannay reel and placed 50 feet of 50 amp wire on the reel for easy rewind.
Sold my old 4517 fishbowl, after 5 years of practice at fabrication, to 10 california engineers for burning man!
Grant
Sacramento
Great thread, Jerry.
Let's see... we routinely run one air conditioner all night on our batteries (gasp -- can't be done, ya know).
We level our coach by adjusting the length of the ride-height "control rods" with linear actuators ("that will never work").
Oh, and we've taken our 24-ton bus down dirt roads (and through mud puddles) without getting stuck or needing to be towed out.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
I keep and operate a bus on my income. (totaly imposible) Even I didn't think it could be done.
I'll add that I've pulled a 10,000 pound trailer with 1100 pounds of tongue weight behind my bus with out any damage (I even did dye penetrant inspection for cracks in the cradle supports). Done that for a bit over 5,000 miles. Everyone says tongue weight over 500 pounds will destroy a GM bus. Of course I also can't run a 240 volt ductless split heat pump off of a 120 volt inverter while driving (transformers must not work).
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Well no one said it was impossible, but most may think I am stupid. I claim border line genius. I cut 37 inches out of my 5c. wanted to cut 5 feet but the 37 worked well. I then added 15 to the back to fit in a Cummins L10. Tom Y
Nothing is impossible if you throw enough time and money at it.
I can send my coffee table to the moon with the above strategy.
Yes people have raised GM's, Lengthened GM's, put slide out in GM's Etc Etc.
the questions are:
Does one have the where-with-all to really do it? There are alot of people whose brain far outpaces their capabilities.
Will it last? I say this with high mileage in mind. Just because you glassed your windows over and they did not fall out in 3k miles or you towed 11k with 1100# mof TW does not mean it will not fail later. I have seen buses with failure from this and it does and will happen at some point. AND THE DAMAGE IS NOT IN THE CRADLE but in the structure from the beltline UP! On A GM ALL your engine weight is supported up through the firewall and by the upper structure above the Engine and behind the firewall ( some forces travel further forward but most are where I said).
Another thing....although one can think it and do it.....doesn't mean it will turn out nice......there is alot of crappy looking stuff out there ( poor workmanship) ....but that boils down to if the owner is happy with it themselves.
Heck there are guys who take a Rusted Out Eagle and will stip it to the frame and rebuild it from ground up basically. Yep, it can be done at the expense of alot of $$ and or Time.......all of which is lost time enjoying the use. Now if your hobby is fabricating a bus and not using a bus........More power to you.
I enjoy using my toys when I have time.......not working on them (although I enjoy that too....but that is why I own a boat LOL)
Well said, tekebird.
I really don't know how to respond to Doug. Fiberglass composite construction is well proven, there are literally thousands of Rutan designed aircraft flying that are almost entirely built with glass over foam construction just like my window replacements. Yes a bit of craftsmanship is needed to do it right but it's been proven in a far more difficult environment than bus windows with very substantial steel frames around them.. I'd also like to see him drive a GM bus without the 2 vertical members that hold up the rear of the cradle, sure they transfer the pull on them to the roof and ultimately to the sides but hardly any to the bulkhead, which does support the front of the cradle. but they are vital to holding up the engine. Without seeing the buses he alleges were destroyed by towing I frankly doubt that towing was the cause rather than collision damage or corrosion. I may invest time and thought, including stress analysis, but relatively little money in doing what others insist is impossible. Doug has never seen my bus so his intimation that my work looks like 'crap' is both insulting and not shared by anyone who has seen my bus.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
The MOST IMPOSSIBLE thing with our bus hobby is being able to post something on this board without someone getting bent out of shape or a flame war breaking out.
I've noticed quite a few here like to tell you what "can not be done". The only way to improve something is to change it.
Henry Ford was aressted the first time he drove his car on the street. "They" told him he couldn't do that....I'm pretty sure you all drove your cars to work today. Edison got it wrong over 200 times before his lightbulb worked like he wanted to.
If you do something different and fail then they call you an Idiot, but if you don't fail then you're a genius and they pat you on the back. Everything great that we use today was invented by some "crackpot", with no money, in some dirty old garage.
I'll tell ya what....You'll learn a whole lot more when you don't get it right than when ya do.
Quote from: captain ron
The MOST IMPOSSIBLE thing with our bus hobby is being able to post something on this board without someone getting bent out of shape or a flame war breaking out.
I'm already so far outta shape it'd be hard to bend me back into shape! LOL!
But yes Ron it is hard to make posts that don't agitate or aggravate as most people can't hear/see/feel the emotion on the other end of the post like you can in a face to face or phone conversation where you can get an idea of what the other party is saying by the tone or facial expressions. We should all try to lighten up and take a minute and reread others posts for clues as to whether it was meant humorously, harshly, corrective criticism, or just plain honest advice before responding. It might save some feelings and blood pressure medications! JMHO FWIW ;D BK ;D
PS; I hope by now just about everyone on these boards realizes I'm as big as smart a** as I am BIG! And never takes me to serious (unless it's about safety, as I'm always serious about that! In our business we are only one accident away from being outta business PERMANTLY!) Quote from: akmc5
Everything great that we use today was invented by some "crackpot", with no money, in some dirty old garage.
I'll tell ya what....You'll learn a whole lot more when you don't get it right than when ya do.
Hey that's me! I wonder when something I think of is gonna make me rich or famous! LOL
yep I am full of BS and don't know what I am talking about.
Henrey ford was likely arrested for scaring horses not dfor operating a motor vehicle......a law that was on the books at the time.
in the late 80's Colorado still had a state law that required any business to provide your horse drinking water.
AKMC5,
As a creative engineer I've lived my adult life among those who said 'that won't work'. I'm still fascinated with why that attitude is so prevalent, not just here but everywhere. My house batteries had sat discharged for about a year, everyone in the battery industry said they are destroyed by 'hard sulphation'. I happened on a website about pulse desulphation, built first one but eventually 6 or so of the little pulsers and put them to work. I also built a 'capacity under load tester'. When I started I measured 5 AH capacity on what were built as 370 AH batteries. The pulsers work slowly but they do work. After 4 months I was measuring capacity over 350 AH. It's now 2 years later and I've just measured capacity over 400 AH, yes that's right better than new. Yet still according to all the 'experts' sulfated batteries cannot be recovered. It doesn't matter if it's recovering batteries or putting a window air conditioner in a bus if you ask if it can be done someone is sure to say it can't, even if you already have done it. Why is that? I'm an engineer, not a psychologist, I have no clue why.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
And Jerry Don't be so damn sensitive:
I never said your workman ship was crap.....and I don't have a problem with using Fiberglass for the application you did.
I don't think If you read my post, without having your panties in a wad over the whole can't do it thing, you would have seen that....although I did use your two examples in my post, soley because you threw them out there and they were fresh in my mind.
Truely....I could really give a crap what any one person does to thier property, be it good bad Ugly, nicelooking, or just plain ridiculous.
But I do offer my opinions and advice....none of which is based soley on my experiences
1100# tongue wt: yes you can do it...yes you may have no issues ( in your lifetime with your useage) HERE I AM USING YOUR AS A GENERALITY>>>>>>NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE but that does not mean you are not doing damage.
If you took a non Aerobatic aircraft and do aerobatics....you may never have a failure.....maybe it is the 4th or 5th owner from you that has the failure.
here is a good example of what happens with fatigued Aluminum
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020726X01227&key=1
My grandfather always said that the only thing that was impossible to do was to whistle underwater, I tryed most of the summer that year, I was 12, and tho I never managed to do it, I always thought that it could be done. I feel that way about most things, I think this is one of the reasons I like this forum so much, so many people are convinced, with good reason, that something else just might work.
Doug,
Explanation accepted, thank you. On the trailer tongue weight issue, I actually spent a good bit of time doing a real structural analysis of my GM bus. What I found as the weakest point was the attachment, by rivets, of the engine rear hangers to the roof. Each of these joints have a static load capacity of just over 20,000 pounds. I seriously doubt that a 40,000 pound capacity structure that's carrying about 2000 pounds of engine transmission and such will be subject to any damage from another 1100 pounds even at 2 g loading it's still a safety factor of over 5. I'm very impressed with the GM design. it's elegant and incredibly strong.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
My grandpappy told me that it was impossible to stretch a gnat's a$$ over a wash tub. LOL
Richard
Quote from: cody on August 27, 2007, 07:58:56 PM
My grandfather always said that the only thing that was impossible to do was to whistle underwater, I tryed most of the summer that year, I was 12, and tho I never managed to do it, I always thought that it could be done. I feel that way about most things, I think this is one of the reasons I like this forum so much, so many people are convinced, with good reason, that something else just might work.
Well,
I have done a couple things;
Raised the roof on my 4905 10".
Redesigned the factory exhaust, to a new location.
I hear a lot about all the engineering and design work that was done on these buses that we own and how could we possibly think we could individually make a better decision than the no doubt highly qualified engineering teams of GM, MCI, Prevost, Eagle, et all.
Well, they were designing a bus, not a motorhome in a bus chassis. I think they would have incorporated many of the changes developed and improved by many of our contributers. They were also dealing with the ideas and technology at the time of production. Also the budget constraints of the management team.
Not the unlimited funds that ALL busnuts possess! ;D
Just because someone alters something, doesn't mean its made less structurally. God forbid, we may have accidentally made it better.
I think a lot of detractors live in the "thats the way we always did it world and that the way it should be"
I do agree that EVERYONE should know there limitations, and be honest with yourself. Many times it is cheaper to let someone who is a professional do it right the first time.
Great thread Jerry
Cliff
Cliff,
I would like to copy your exhaust system-mufflers etc. Your changes address a serious safety issue that our aging buses are developing. I'd rather not repair the fire damage that you and others have had due to muffler failure. I'd also like to not make the errors of the trial and error process I know you went through.
This modification of the GM Buffalo series deserves a magazine article.
Regads
Jerry 4107 1120
Cliff,
Your da man! Very well said!
You too AKMC5!!!
Being somewhat of a creative person myself, I LOVE it when people are willing to try some thing new!!! And yes, sometimes there is failure. More often than we like, but that's all part of it. You have to have failures to also have success. It makes the success sweet as opposed to a mundane part of life.
This is a cool thread, Jerry. Altho I haven't really come up with any new earth shaking modifications, I'm trying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D (I'm trying the downward vent tubes now and can't wait to try the air dam!!)
BK is right about not being able to tell what a persons intention is on the printed page, ESPECIALLY when they don't even give you a clue.
I seen a saying once that said: "If can't help them, at least don't hinder them." I like responses from you guys that are, shall we say, "against" what I'm doing if it is good sound advice from past knowledge. It helps me not make that mistake, saving my time and money, and/or try something in a different manner. Learning from someone else's mistakes is the BEST!!! way to learn. And with heart felt thanks, I thank those in the past that made them so I wouldn't have to.
I'm looking forward to more posts on this thread!!! Mainly for the inspiration to try something else....... or God forbid........ something "new"!!!!!! :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Break out the sawzall's, bailing wire and bubble gum. I'm feelin creative,
Chaz
p.s. and if ya really want to get contraversial, let's talk WVO!!!!!!! YES!!!!!! ;D
Cliff,
Now that you have that huge volume of space where the muffler once was have you thought of how to use it. Maybe put a water heater down there with access through a trap door in the floor. It's probably big enough that it'd hold a generator, but for access issues. With only 35 feet of bus I keep looking for places to tuck thing into.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Jerry,
Hadn't thought much about using that space.
You do need to keep it open to get to the pipes though. Don't eat dinner before trying to get in there! ;D
How about running a loop (hot water) around the exhaust from a storage tank using a recirculating pump.
Reclaim some of that waste heat. The trough in the bay ends right before it?
Cliff
Nothing is impossible in a bus conversion EXCEPT:
- Knowing whether or not to use anti seize on lug nuts
- Being absolutely sure you are descending a grade properly
- Knowing what type of toilet is best
Len
Jerry -
I posted this before, but just an FYI:
I have a busnut friend who does the small-town carnival/festival circuit up and down the west coast, hauling a 27', three-axle, cargo box trailer full of bounce houses and other, similar amusements. Trailer weighs around 12K, loaded.
He went through three 4106's pulling that trailer. All three "died" from structural failures in the rear of the coach.
He now uses a Kingsley KW (http://www.kingsleycoach.com/), but laments about the bus. . .
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Russ,
I do remember your post. I don't know what GM changed in going from the 4106 to the 4107 and I'd really like to know exactly where the structural failures occured. Does he, perhaps have pictures of the damage to any of them?
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Another impossibility for bus nuts
Keeping on topic ;D ;D
When someone tells me that something can't be done, I expect logical, not emotional, discussion. The simple fact that a dog hasn't bitten you doesn't mean it won't bite me. Just because you don't know the reason doesn't mean there isn't one.
I suffered thru 3 semesters of engineering grad school studying materials & fatigue of materials. I understand why the numbers sometimes lie, but I can't explain it to most. Maybe my dyslexia concerning differential equations is the reason, maybe I'm just stupid ;D Naaaah, I like to blame it on the fancier sounding word. 8)
The fatigue of materials is (at least it is to me) a complex issue. The number of cycles to failure varies with the magnitude of the load, material used, ductility of the material, shape of the part, etc. In some cases, you can improve the life of the part with a single cycle 'overload'. But other cases this 'overload' will greatly reduce the remaining life of the part.
I know that for cyclic loading, steel has an endurance limit & if your loads remain under it, it won't fail, ever.
Aluminium, on the other hand has no endurance limit, so under cyclic loading, it will eventually fail - unless it is annealed & then the cycle counter is reset. Also, doesn't aluminum age harden at room temperature?
These issues provide the sound basis for exercising caution when altering something as complex as a monocue (sp?) structure. Simple static load calculations mean little when you are cyclic loading something like we do with our buses riding down the road.
(The endurance limit for steel is ~half it's ultimate strength (up to an ultimate strength of 100kpsi).)
Sure some can do it because they have good intuition, field experience, or the proper education.
But I've seen some that can't even with lots of education & field experience, & worse still are the ones that don't know their limitations & refuse sound advice.
So when someone says "you can't do that", I don't take it as an insult. I initially take it as coming from someone who cares about my success. (Later if they turn out to be an idiot, well we all know what they can do with their input. ;) )
When there is negativity towards a potential project, I start looking for info I may have missed.
I enjoy discussing the various merits of a project during the planning stage, the improvements are so much easier to implement when you don't have to 'tow it home first' ;D
BTW, doesn't our own Dallas have personal experience with a bus's early retirement as a result of pulling a trailer. Something about the floor buckling up if I remember. . .
Well said Kyle. So what have you done to your bus that was thought "impossible"? Ya just gotta have a story or two! :)
Chaz
While not 'impossible' it was idiotic, does that count?
I talked my dad into taking his E350 van & going with me & my son 2500 miles (one way) to Hungry Horse MT to get some bus parts - based only on the description provided by the seller & pictures taken with 6" of snow on them! I was told they weighed ~5000 lbs. That was a bit optimistic! We knew we were heavy on that 7000# capacity trailer so we left the 8V71 there. We hit the scale in KY & found we had 9000# on the axles & 2000# tongue weight! :o
It pulled EXCELLENT! even when we came up on some unexpected ice on the road in either MY or WO. (This southern boy wasn't expecting ice on the road when it was ~70F ! )
Are all those that say 500# max tongue weight wrong?
Was the hitch manufacturer that stamped the hitch at 1000# max tongue weight wrong?
Was pulling that stunt worth it? - Since it all turned out well, HELL YES! ;D ;D ;D
Would I do it again? I'm taking the 5th. :o
That trip ranks near the top of the list as far as awesome scenery & memories go. The bounty of stuff I brought back is cool too. Some of it that I thought I'd NEVER need has proved quite usefull in making new friends by giving some parts needed for their Scenicruiser. 8)
Chaz,
For Kyle, it's not bus, it's buses. he's after the world record for owning more 4510s than anyone since Greyhound. For Kyle it's impossible to have too many Sencicruisers.
Regards
Jerry
All I know is if Kyle and Jerry get together at the non-rally, I will need some one to record the discussion so I can look up the big words later. :o
Maybe I will bring a dry erase board. ;D
Funny enough, The roof raise was not a big deal once I felt secure about beefing up the engine attachment points to the roof etc..., but I would never tow a trailer even behind a stock GMC as my school of common sense wont let me after studying how its attached.
We all have different comfort points with changes or additions. Right or wrong!
Cliff
Quote from: Jerry Liebler on August 28, 2007, 10:36:21 AM
Chaz,
For Kyle, it's not bus, it's buses. he's after the world record for owning more 4510s than anyone since Greyhound. For Kyle it's impossible to have too many Sencicruisers.
Regards
Jerry
See why I like Jerry, He understands me, & in spite of all that, he returns my phone calls ;D
These things are right up there with catylizing diesel with propane for increased power for hills and grades, cant be done without blowing the engine.
(spsspssss been doing it for ten years)>>>Dan
Dan,
You just reminded me of eliminating the slobber tubes on a Detroit 2 stroke, I was amazed to find that Chaz's bus has this 'impossible' modification too, I think it was done by one of his bus's previous owners.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
On purpose stopped my Crown on a graded dirt forest service road with a certified 10% up grade, put the old girl in first gear, then proceeded to motor right up the hill. Clutch never smelled and still works fine. Later a engineer type friend calculated the Crown specs and said she would have started easily on a 18% grade, but I do not believe him, nor would I try it since I love my bus and would never abuse it and besides............
Quote from: kyle4501 on August 28, 2007, 10:03:29 AM
BTW, doesn't our own Dallas have personal experience with a bus's early retirement as a result of pulling a trailer. Something about the floor buckling up if I remember. . .
Yup,
That was me!
We had a 1948 TDH3610 (GMC Old Look Transit Coach) with a 4-71 and a Spicer 1 speed hydraulic transmission. (Yes.... it was a Spicer, NOT an Alison).
We pulled a 20' flat bed trailer from Fargo, ND to Myrtle Beach, SC and back to Rockingham, NC.
The trailer was loaded with a 10 1/2' cabover camper, all of my tools and a bunch of personal stuff in a box I built under the cabover part of the camper.
Total weight being pulled was a little over 8,000 pounds.
One day I was looking at the bus along the beltline and something didn't look right so I got out a string and pulled it tight from front to back on the bus. The bus had a noticeable hump above the bulkhead just in front of the drive axle and dropped 4" from the differential to the back of the bus above the engine.
I climbed on top of the bus and found hundreds of loose and "popped" rivets all along the roof, including the upper sides above the windows.
The one thing I didn't find was any buckling on the outside. I attribute that to the give of the rivets along the rest of the structure.
I sure loved that old bus and hated to see it go, but I ended up selling it to a fellow in New Mexico who elected to drive it all the way back. I had recommended that he trailer it, but he decided to take an 8 week trip instead. (Top speed on the flats was 40 mph, up hill was 14 mph).
Would I pull a trailer that heavy again? Not with an Old Look, but with my 4103 I probably would, after designing a hitch that attached way forward of the bulkheads and with reinforcement to the roof trusses. to allow more of the trailer tongue weight to be absorbed by the roof structure.
Somewhere, on some CD, stored in some ungodly spot under the bed, I have photos of the bus. Maybe I can dig them up some day and post them.
Bottom Line is, --Do it your way, but do it safely and with a lot of fore thought. Nothing is impossible with enough information, study, and work. I'll bet you could even make one of these
monocoque monsters fly with enough work. After all, the c-47 (Boeing DC3) was monocoque and it was considered one of the best aircraft in the world for years. There are still many of them in service.
Dallas