Ok guys, my brain has been at it yet again. (sorry, I'm an artist ;D)
I seen a semi-truck that they were working on to get the best mileage possible in Australia a few years back and they were stream lining it (tapering it), filling the gap over the fifth wheel, closing wheel well openings AND using an air dam on the front to keep the air from dragging under the truck.
I was just wondering if any of those concepts -ie. the air dam- would work or help on our beloved buses?? If somebody has any insight, I'd love to know what they think. I like reinventing the mouse trap, if it's at least viable. I hate making mistakes that have been made before. >:(
"Airing" on the side of fuel mileage,
Chaz
Hello.
From all the stuff I've read over the years about the various strategies for improving tractor trailer aerodynamics, the percentage improvements are so small that it would make payback pretty much impossible for a busnut.
Removing unneccesary weight, a more gentle use of the throttle pedal, both on acceleration, and in choice of cruise speed, and keeping engine idling to a minimum are the significant things we might do to change fuel consumption.
Or trade in my MC8 for a 4104.....
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Well, if you take your Bus and make it in the genral shape of the Space Shuttle, it would do wonders ;)
Your best bet is to do as buswarrior sais.. ;D
Paul...
Thanx guys, but your info helps little. I'm not trying to change the shape of my bus, that was just a statement about what the show was about. OH, and by the way, the design made a HUGE difference in mileage. Expensive to impose? Yes. But all good improvements come from somebody who cares, trying to make things better. (I'm just not somebody who is content on sitting on my a** and letting the past dictate "exactly" what the future needs to be. ie. the wheel sure beats the hell out of a stick dragging on the ground! But I'm sure there were those that thought the person who invented that was wasting time too. Oh, and then there is electricity............etc.)
My point was and is, just like on a race car, has anyone given any time or thought to decreasing the under vehicle drag on a bus? If no one has, fine. If someone has some insight, I'd love to hear about it. It seems like it could be a viable possibility. But if there is info out there that says it's a moot issue........................ on to the next attempt.
I'm not trying to be a pr**k here. I just want to help us make things better. I am what is called, a "Creative". And I have a shop that can can build most anything. My philosophy has always been, "If you can, then you should". But most people don't care enough. Sad. So sad.
So back to "On Topic". Anyone have any insight about this?
Just trying to help (with knowledge you already have)
Chaz
Just my observation.
Front ground effect could look real cool. (but) (little but) :) I did one on my Talon. The major issue is that
to get the front effect to do any real good it needs to be very close to the ground. On the roads around here
I end up fixing mine at least once a year. So I don't know if it is worth the effort. Just don't use fiberglass
or you'll be constantly fixing like me. (maybe a stainless steel cow catcher design would work)
Skip
Thanx Skip.
Yeah, I would also have to keep in mind the airbags going down too. But I was thinking more along the lines of flexible and forgiving. ;) (something my life usually needs! ;D )
I was thinking along the lines of heavy belting (rock quarry stuff) and like heavy spring retainers on the back side.
The "cool factor", if there actually was one, ;) would just be a by-product.
Thanx for the help tho!!!!
Chaz
Chaz, I think the reason for the air dam is to force the air around the outside of the coach instead of under it where the turbulence/parasitic drag holds back the vehicle. I thought about doing a sheet metal, smooth undercarriage to eliminate that.
Several years ago I bought a 300ZX Nissan it had an engine pan under it to cut down on the turbulence, it extended back to the floor pans, which made it smooth all the way back to the rear axle, which was recessed up inside the cross tunnel. It was basically smooth underneath.
The wheels also had spokes that were canted/slanted to act as a fan to draw air from underneath the car to eliminate the high pressure.
These things might have added up to a big mileage boost, apparently Nissan thought so. Maybe it was done for speed, I don't know.
Ed.
Air dams on race cars and the like are more to get rid of lift than they are to help get rid of drag. At high speeds on a light car the air can actually raise the car and make the tires not have a good contact, thus the car becomes unsteady. I don't think we are going to be going fast enough to cause any lift and I don't think the air going under the bus is a major factor in fuel mileage. That big wall we call the front of the bus is what is causing the mileage to go down. Some one joked above about reshaping the front of the bus like the space shuttle - a funny joke, but also true.
I like your creative thinking and agree about trying new things instead of just accepting the old way of doing things. But an air dam wouldn't accomplish what you are looking for since that is not their purpose.
Dang. :P But that is a good point Songman. But I still kinda wonder if it wouldn't help. I'm not real versed in aero technology, but it just seems that I remember some info that it "can" help. But maybe not. I do know we don't really need the down force! ;D lol
By the way, a biodiesel bus member DOES have an aero front end on his bus!!!!!!! TOTALLY unique. It definitely gets your attention!! I'd bet it helps! I wouldn't mind trying something like that, but I REALLY like the look of my Buffalo the way it is.
Ed, yeah, there is also something about a smooooooooth bottom pan that I seem to remember hearing that helps. But MAN, That's ALLOT of smoothing!! ;D
Still might consider the "Cool Factor". ;) lol
Chaz
Go for the cool! When I was traveling some with Travis Tritt in the old days, he had neons under his Eagle. Never would have thought I would like it but it did look cool! haha
Chaz- the biggest contribution to fuel mileage will be the state of tune your engine is in. The first big question you could answer is what size injectors are you running? If you want maximum fuel mileage, you want the N55 injectors for 255hp with 675lb/ft torque. This was the injector of choice for the big bus operators since the engine could be run both flat out and lugged without damage and in most cases not overheat. With the N55 you should be in the 6.5-8 mpg range. The next best fuel mileage size is the N60 for 280hp and 740lb/ft torque. You'll have about a .5 mpg reduction. Then is the N65 with 304hp and 800lb/ft torque. This is what I had in my bus before my turbo job. With my car in tow I weigh 34,750lb and would get 4.5-6mpg. If you want the highest horsepower on a non turbo, you could retime the engine to the A timing with N70's and get a true 318hp with 860lb/ft torque. Your mileage would be about the same 4.5-6mpg. After the turbo and air to air intercooling of my engine, I'm getting 375hp and 1125lb/ft torque with 9G75 injectors. My mileage now is in the 5.5-6.5 range-so an improvement a bit. Detroit went as high a 7G80 injectors for 400hp and 1200lb/ft torque. Don Fairchild will put in 9G90's for 450hp and 1350lb/ft torque. So you can see that the same engine can produce a wide range of power-a two fold range of torque.
Try unscrewing the two bolts on the lower valve cover to remove it and look for the little round tag on the injectors-the injectors sit in between the four exhaust valves. Post what the number is on them. The biggest factor to fuel mileage if you have bigger injectors is driving habits. Good Luck, TomC
Tom,
I'm hip to the idea of making the engine as efficient as possible, driving styles, etc. but, that is all stuff that is known and done. I am looking for things "I" can do or perfect or improve or build or whatever. "I" want to help the bus community!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have got a freaking GREAT deal of info from all you guys and I just want to do what I may be able to to help.
Sure, I can do all those things to help "ME", but as I said earlier (which most people just don't "truly get", I like to help and my area of expertise is in metal and fabrication. THAT is the info I am trying to glean from this thread.
But I do appreciate you trying to help me with the fuel mileage thing. I, as well as everyone I know wants to get the best we can. So Thank You so much for that!!!!!!!! I DO appreciate it. BUT, I want to help in the arena that I am familiar with and can possibly do some good in. I know it may not be much, but it's the best I can do.
By the way, I think I have the color "brown injectors". ( ??? Is that right? I think that's what I remember) I get about 6.2 mpg and think I could do even better if I could afford to get them pulled and benched. But..............? I understand there are others who get some pretty decent mileage out there. Unfortunately tho, mine is an automatic.
Thanx again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chaz
p.s. By the way, if there is something along the lines of "what I can do" that someone knows of, I would love to discuss it and see if we can't make our bus's better.
Just a thought and an offering.
Guys,
I did this with a car way back when. I made the air dam a two stage affair. The first dam was part of the front of the car that I changed out and was aftermarket. The second was a piece of conveyor belt from a mine. Very tough stuff! I used old hack saw blades as stiffners. I cut the thing to drag on the ground and it wore itself in to the "perfect" length. I also had strips down the side to max my surface effect and retard air geting back under the car.
Did it work? I could POP over two lanes at 100 mph and it felt very controled. Z's are usually bad airplanes and are not prone to imparting any feeling of confidence. Between the air dam and whale tail it stayed glued.
Was it effieient? I made a connon ball run in the am of a XMASS eve. Drove 26 miles at an ave. of 107 mph and spent a lot of time at 135mph to do it. My gas milage for the trip was 19 mpg. Note that the "low speed tail" was a serious drag at speed. The car normally gave me 30 mpg on the highway at 70 mph cruise and 23 around town. With the cam and richened carbs the 2.4 liter put out 280 or so hp.
I know an air dam would enhance the MPG of any bus and the hard part is how to deal with the settling. Maybe put the dam on a frame that would pivot and position the dam in a more horizontal posit when parked or for entering a drive. Skinning the underside would help a lot and if the panels are small enuff they would not impede access to specific areas for maint or repair. This would not be high on my list fo pri, to be sure but for someone that simply has to tinker with a project and expexts some return, albeit small, this is a good one.
On a hundred thousand miles, what is .1 mpg increase worth on a vehicle that gets 6 mpg? Say $800 return? You could do better, maybe and this isn't your biggest bang for the buck, but it easily is a break even project.
IMO,
John
QuoteOn a hundred thousand miles, what is .1 mpg increase worth on a vehicle that gets 6 mpg? Say $800 return? You could do better, maybe and this isn't your biggest bang for the buck, but it easily is a break even project.
Thanx John. That is the point I'm after. I know most stuff that I can do and can contribute to everyone is small and probably inconsequential, but if I can do enough of those, maybe it can amount to something. And hopefully it will be something that I can design that others can do themselves also.
The other thing I was thinking about is the back of the bus and if there is a way to reduce the wind drag off the back. Now before I get a bunch of replies on how stupid and irrelevant that would be, I would like to know if anyone has any experience in this.
It's just an idea!!! ::)
Keep thinkin,
Chaz
Chaz,
Please don't reduce the back end drag. That is what the rest of us count on.
Drop in behind you for some slip streaming action and reduce our feul costs.
So you can always lead the pack and we will all be :)
:) :o
Skip
Son........... if you want to follow me, you TOO will be going nowhere fast!!! ::) Actually, you'll be going quite sloooooooow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
But, about that idea, I wonder if the way the buffalo is configured, in the back, has anything to do with that? Or maybe it's that way to try to keep the rear window cleaner. Hmmmmm, somebody ought to know.
Chaz
If memory serves the most aerodynamic design ends up looking like a banana.
For wind breaks 1 ft height gets you 10 ft of coverage (reduced air movement)
So using subtractive logic (I never was good at proofs) you would need to change your
roof line to an arc approx. 4 feet higher 40 feet long and follow the arc down behind the
bus.
Now if you can make that look good you truly are an Artist extraordinare.
Looks like sketch time personally I like french curve instead of a simple arc.
Skip
I'm hip to that logic and yeah, some people like my art, but I ain't THAT good!!! ;D But then, I like the Oscar Meyer hot dog mobile!! :DLOLOLOLOL :D :D :D
I was just wondering if maybe some sort of spoiler, or a piece coming out from under the bumper or something to that effect.
I know a typical spoiler is for down pressure, so that is not what I am after, but maybe there is some sort of way to cheat the wind. Probably just a pipe dream, but maybe someone has an idea.
I like brats better than hotdogs,
Chaz
Here is something cheap, you might could make some.
be sure to establish a somewhat baseline and then post results.
http://www.airtab.com/ (http://www.airtab.com/)
this guy calls them turbulators.
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/car_aerodynamics/#Car%20side%20fairings (http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/car_aerodynamics/#Car%20side%20fairings)
good luck and keep us posted
I run my bus in a nose down attitude around 6" to 8" difference from front to rear, helps a bit. Also I have phosphorescence strips in my rub rails that illuminate at night ... real cool to see at night running down the road or in the campground.
Ron
Quote from: prevost82 on August 12, 2007, 09:06:07 PM
I run my bus in a nose down attitude around 6" to 8" difference from front to rear, helps a bit. Also Ron
Ahhhh, always going downhill, eh :D :D
Chaz,
You can tell if a vehicle has a lot of rear drag by how dirty it gets how fast. Big square semi's are always filthy if unwashed for a few days...especially in winter wet. The MCI 9 seems to stay relatively clean and there is a reason. The roof on a 9 (and other models) is shorter than the bottom footprint. Thjat short roof relieves the vacuim formed by ther bus and lets the "top air" come down to fill the vac with cleaner air. Install a rear cap that is proportional to the bottom and you will enhabce drag and it should dirty up quicker. If you want to further reduce drag on a bus install those curved wing-like pieces of heavy gauge sheet metal on the SIDES of an MCI. I have seen many high line coaches with the wing installed on the trailing edge of the squared roof. Some have a chanel moulded into the fiberglass rear cap.
Affix a triangular piece to the leading edge of your awning. They scream going down the road at 70 mph so the are doing somthing bad. The nside channel should be filled for travel somehow.
Cover the rear wheels with a full "skirt". That cuts down seriously on drag.
Interesting topic and also some great references in the replys.
Thanks
John
NOW we're cookin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah baby!!!!!!!!!!!!
Excellent info guys!!! Definitly stuff I can use and work with.
The short roof idea is what I was thinking about when I mentioned making something coming out from under the bumper. The back of my -stock rear- buffalo gets plenty dirty, but I think the roof is already a bit shorter. I'll have to check.
I don't have an awning, but want one some day. I could easily fab up a nose cone.
Cool! Thanx again Newbee and John!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chaz
Chaz,
Ok time to take off the gloves. Since I have been thinking about your request for more than a second or two. (seconds turn into days)
The biggest issue is the fact that you have close to a 64 sq. foot wall in front. The laws of physics basically leaves you only two
routes you can redirect a force or overcome a force with another force. To date we really have no way to create a vacum in front of
the bus other than slipping in behind a semi. (most optimum and dangerious) so lets look at redirection. Any reduction of the front
flat wall square footage will increase effeciancies.
So how about a Visor in the front (at proper angles) with the collected air channeled to the back of the bus by ducts on either side of the AC. then at the back channeled down. If the visor covers 2 ft of the vertical then you could see somewhat less than a 25% reduction in the flat wall effect (8X8 Flat wall to 6X8 flat wall). If the ducts are built heavey enough you would then have the frame in place to put in solar panels
when you are flush (Famous AND RICH).
FWIW
Skip
there are cheaper and more beneficial things to improve your economy...and not make your bus look like a hillbilly science experiment gone bad.
alot of things that claim to give you increased economy do......but it is measured over a million miles or so...not the 6-8k most do in a year.
In these cases your $$ is better spent through your fuel tank
Aw come on Tekebird I wasn't suggesting putting a rocking chair on top of the bus.
Nice view though :)
Skip
A rocking chair! Now there is an idea! Come on, granny! We're going for a ride! ;D
Songman,
Were grandparents so we qualify to resemble that remark.
Gee I wonder if I could get my wife up there for a ride.
I'll check back later with the results.
Skip
Thanx Skip! What a thought! And thanx for indulging me. Obviously tekebird didn't read much of the beginning of the post or he has a short memory. :)
A visor might be an interesting project. I think it could look rather cool if I can come up with a design that compliments the bus. But I would hate to lose my destination sign. Not sure about the ducts tho. ;)
Thanx again for your time in contemplation! ;D
Chaz
I have not read all of the replys.
I will share this though.
Back in the late 60's and early 70's the NASCAR boys were making the front ends of the Ford Taladeaga's, the Dodge Charger's and the Plymouth Super Birds pointy and slick. Boy would they run fast! Then they would crunch one up in a wreck, throw some duct tape on it (They called it 200MPH tape back then!) and go back on the track and run faster! What they found was that if they reduced the drag at the rear it ran faster. It turns out that the more the car is shaped like an egg, the faster it runs because the air going across the rear is less disturbed!
When working at Fruehauf Trailers in the late 70's they were experimenting with the same thing you are taking about Chaz, keeping air from going under the truck and trailer (and keeping it from being disturbed between the cab and trailer.) It works, the problem is the stuff gets torn off and costs a lot to fix.
Now remember if you restrict the air upder the bus, you may have some overheating of compnents. I don't know, just thinking ahead.
Jack
Just read maria-n-skip's post about the wall at the front of the bus.
If you don't beleave it check this out.
If you take the wind out of the equasion a bicyclist can go really really really fast. After the Tour DuPont several years ago in Winston-Salem, NC one of the European National teams rode back on Interstae 40 from Winton-Salem to Kernersville, NC doing 60MPH behind the team van! What a site!
Jack
Thanx Jack.
The over heat thing has been on my mind. I know that the "flap" underneath causes the negative pressure to help cool the motor, so I was a little concerned. I guess experimentation is the only way unless someone else knows. ??? ::)
Chaz
I read the thread.
Feder skirts on buses have been tried before....most are taken off as the cost/maint issues far outweigh the benefit.
Streamlining and aero/ground effects have been done for decands on testbed trucks...they do make a difference....but once again Cost Benefit.
Not sure how much air dam one could put on a bus and still have a functional approach angle
I beleive on race cars it is more a function of reducing lift rather than speed or economy. not to mention they are doing it on a controlled road surface in most cases
there is some airflow under the bus but it is no more detrimantal to that going down eaither side or over the roof.
Chad on your bus, put an Eagle cap on it...thats the best thing you could do airflow wise.
ok.
check out what the truck folks are trying with the backs of the trailers. Elongating the sides, sill, and roof, so the door is recessed. Also a variety of rounded shapes hung on the back, Airtabs are already been mentioned. Try trucknews.com or todaystrucking.com
As noted in previous posts, the pull of the sucking vacuum at the rear is a big component that may offer more fertile ground for improvement than the nose.
Walmart in particular is working on their fleet.
A word of caution: be sure your efforts at closing up the front don't starve the brakes of the air flow they need to cool off!!!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
This one comes with a spill kit and emergency containment since your tank will be running over with all the xtra fuel your bus is rejecting. :D ::)
http://www.turboshield.com/class-a.asp (http://www.turboshield.com/class-a.asp) At a minimum Chaz, you should at least get some entertainment and interest out of it.
Chaz, since an air dam has to be fairly close to the ground to be effective, a 2 piece unit might be the best approach.
The top piece would just clear rhe ground when the airbags were deflated, and the lower piece could slide up and down on mechanical linkage/cables using a fulcrum and lever principle,
As the bus settles, the linkage would raise the lower air dam proportionately and keep it at a pre-determined distance from the ground.
All the measurements could be done like the constipated mathmetition. He worked it out with a pencil. LOL
Seriously, it could be done.
Ed
More good stuff, cool!
Tekebird, this is what I'm talking about:
QuoteI am looking for things "I" can do or perfect or improve or build or whatever. "I" want to help the bus community!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have got a freaking GREAT deal of info from all of you guys and I just want to do what I may be able to to help.
Sure, I can do all those things to help "ME", but as I said earlier (which most people just don't "truly get", I like to help and my area of expertise is in metal and fabrication. THAT is the info I am trying to glean from this thread.
Thanx Buswarrior! That is someplace to start with. If I should do the dam, I would
guess some air ducts would be necessary. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
I was also thinking about skirts. (I'm going to make a set for my '51 Chevy sedan that I chopped. OH, what about a '50 Nash ambassador. They were almost skirted completely from the factory! I have one I need to pick up) I REEEEEALLY would have to do ducts then. I may look into NASCAR and see if there is some sort of rule of thumb to go by. Maybe something like a funnel effect to increase the amount of air on the brakes. Skirts might look a bit weird, but........ ? Then again, with a visor and some pinstripping................ Old School Hot Rod!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
My biggest concern is the effect on the engine cooling. I wonder if it would hurt or help it?
Thanx Newbee. Looks like I'm not going to be the first!! ;) I never am! :D But it's good to see someone else thinks it would help. Their claim may be inflated, but ya never know till ya try it. But if it's true, how cool would THAT be to get another MPG!?!?!?!!!! (and a "cool factor" to boot! ;D)
That's a thought, Ed. I'm not 100% sure I follow you, but if you could hum me a few bars.... ;).
I was kinda thinking 2 piece - metal and rubber belting. But it would have to be a belt hard enough to retain shape going down the road and soft enough to collapse when she settles. I wonder if a 2 piece deal would work where they were slotted and just allowed to slide up past each other. That may be too simple, but I like the K.I.S.S. method. Seems to work best. ;)
Thanx for the "think tank time" guys. I really do appreciate it!! There may be something to this that we all can do. And if it's possible to pick up an extra MPG from someplace where no one has before............... how cool is that!!! (maybe even a "cool factor" to boot! ;)) I am getting 6.2 now so that would be big!!! (and yes, I will be trying to get better mileage from the usual and customary places too!)
Thanx again,
Chaz
How about an air actuator triggered by the front air bags. When the air pressure in the bags goes down the air damn retracts. Trigger the actuator near max normal air bag pressure. You would still need a manual override for those humps and bumps.
Or trigger it by speed. Retract/extend at 25MPH. Would not need to remember it for those parking lot approaches.
Or put a switch on shift linkage for those of us with manual trannys so it will only extend in top gear.
Just some rambling thoughts. You design it, I'll steal your design and take credit for it. :)
Don 4107
Man Don, your ramblin thoughts are preeeeeeety damn good!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D lol
Those are all good thoughts! The manual trany deal especially! But unfortunately, I have an auto.
I think the speed thing would probably work best, But I was goung to have rubber belting across the bottom anyway. Hmmmmmmmmm........ good thoughts.....good thoughts.
thanx,
Chaz
If you block off all air going under the bus, then the vacuum at the rear will increase - let the radiator outlet be to that area & you'll not have over heat issues to deal with.
I like the idea of fender skirts. I saw a bus with skirts on the rear & it really looked good. They had a stylized curve at the bottom & were held on by 1/4 turn fasteners. - Rember that bus NewbeeMC9, we saw it after lunch one day?
Fender skirts on the front will prove difficult to make & allow the bus to turn ;D
BTW, 40' long ducts will have significant drag in & of themselves, not to mention lost interior space. You'd be better off lowering the roof. - Hey, a chop top buffalo with fender skirts - AWESOME!
Hey Kyle,
I dig "hammered lids" on ALLOT of cars (all pre '55) but a Buffalo??!!??!! LOLOL ::) ;D I'd love to raise it about 8 inches, but I just don't have the time. (typical)
I was talking to a buddy last night and I really think I'd like a nice smooth curved visor and rear skirts along with the air dam. "Ol skool" look. (It would make my faded black and brown paint look more at home! LOLOLOL :D)
Maybe even front skirts!
I know, I know, but if I wouldn't have to bubble them out too far, it would be interesting. I would check the turning dimensions out now, but I am working on the fuel tank and can't start the bus to turn the wheels. That might make it look a little too space age tho. I do like the 'ol skool look that a visor and rear skirts "could" give. ;) Probably give a small curve on the back skirts to resemble a (my) '56 Chevy. ;) But it would be interesting to see what effect 4 skirts would have on a bus. And bubbling them out on my English Wheel would not be hard at all.
As far as 35' ducts............... yeah right! :) Front brake ducts would not a problem if they were necessary. I'd probably do them just to be safe anyway. But nothing the length of the bus.
And more negative pressure under the bus to pull more air thru the radiator would be a great plus!
Thanx for the thoughts!
Chaz
p.s. I wonder if anyone on here knows how to Photoshop? I had a guy photoshop chop my '51 before I put the saw to it. It takes out allot of the guessing on whether or not it would look good or not. ;D
Chaz,
I was thinking (ok it's a tuff sport and I might strain myself) After you have done your mods how about making
me a stylized stainless steel visor for my rig. Both my 48 and 91 Pickups have them. When we were looking to buy a bus
my wife always liked the eagles with the visor.
Of coarse you would have to come out here to install it and it will take me a year to save up the money.
ps I have all sort of picture editing software but alas I have no artistic ability. I'm a cut and paste kind of guy.
Skip
Skip,
I was thinking I may make my visor s.s. also. I love s.s. even if I paint it. Ya just don't have to ever worry about it.
I wish I knew computers better. I do have Photoshop, but basically computer illiterate. I may have to do it the old fashoned way too.
If ya ever get out my way, we can talk about that visor! ;) It would be ALLOT easier here! ;D
Keepin the sun outta my eyes,
Chaz
How about full moon wheel covers for the fronts? 8)
Or, what about huge spinners for the front? That would eliminate the bubble while hiding the wheel ;D
Pay attention when you're making that visor, cause if you can get the price right, you'll be making lots more. :o
I had thought about Moons all the way around. I think they would be cool!! But I found a full set of s.s. simulators for 50.00 so I couldn't pass that up. :)
Spinners........ nah. Never really my thing. Plus the bus would probably want to "take off" ;D!!
I don't think I really want to get back into "production" of an item (visor) but I could probably give out the dimensions for those that would want to do one! :)
Songman said he might be able to help with some photoshoping. I think it would look good, but photoshop will tell. I just need to get him some pix.
(by the way, thanx Songman! I'll get some out to ya soon!)
Cruisin,
Chaz
I worked with a guy who had been an engineer with Eagle back in their glory days. He told me that they did wind tunnel tests and that the Eagle is actualy tapered about 2" along the sides starting about 10 feet from the rear.
Eagles have been known for superior economy compared to other similar sized busses so I guess it's true. Anyone who's done serious reconstruction can probably verify that for me.
Len
Quote from: Chaz on August 15, 2007, 09:50:18 AM
Songman said he might be able to help with some photoshoping. I think it would look good, but photoshop will tell. I just need to get him some pix.
(by the way, thanx Songman! I'll get some out to ya soon!)
No problem, glad to help.
Funny that Moon Eyes came up. The Photoshopped pictures I sent Chaz included the PS I did to see if I would like Moon Eyes on my wife's HHR. I didn't think I would like the look but Photoshop proved to me that I did so we ended up buying them. The other Photoshopped items are still in the works.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fiero-performance.com%2Fhhr%2Flatest.jpg&hash=72f07f2cff5d11da115afa597203352bf046106f)
Weren't the older 7's and 8's easier to push down the road because their roof was curved at the sides? Aren't square edges on the sides of a roof a serious aero drag? I once ran into a trucker that was converting an old Sceinic Cruiser. The bus had an 8v71...I guess. It was a three speed stick and I marveled that it could do 60 and still get itself underway. That trucker SEEMED an honest sort and he did have a really nice store bought oak bed set with the drawers underneath that he said his wife demanded. He claimed that the bus gave him 10 MPG. 10MPG! What do those old 4104's get with a stick? I am guessing that the body shape has somthing to do with the outstanding mpg.
Comments?
thanks,
John
Quote from: JohnEd on August 15, 2007, 11:47:32 PM
Weren't the older 7's and 8's easier to push down the road because their roof was curved at the sides? Aren't square edges on the sides of a roof a serious aero drag? I once ran into a trucker that was converting an old Sceinic Cruiser. The bus had an 8v71...I guess. It was a three speed stick and I marveled that it could do 60 and still get itself underway. That trucker SEEMED an honest sort and he did have a really nice store bought oak bed set with the drawers underneath that he said his wife demanded. He claimed that the bus gave him 10 MPG. 10MPG! What do those old 4104's get with a stick? I am guessing that the body shape has somthing to do with the outstanding mpg.
Comments?
thanks,
John
I've often wondered whether modern square buses are aerodynamically much worse than the old-style curved coaches - especially those with the streamlined and tapered tails such as the Setra S6:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.konrad-auwaerter.de%2Fspeyer_2004%2F04-busse%2F1962_setra_s6_hanses%2Fbus.jpg&hash=764b7dd5311589e820bb46412c05c25edb6670d2)
One thing that is often overlooked I think is the general 'smoothness' of the overall body - any projection or irregularity causes turbulence, and modern buses are generally very smooth indeed compared to the ones we drive. I read a statistic once about the total amount of petrol 'wasted' worldwide by the door mirrors on cars - I forget the number, but it was tens of millions of gallons a year.
As it happens I was parked next to the six-wheel versions of one of these yesterday - note the wheel covers:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.neoplan.com.cn%2Fnetwork%2Fbus%2F6127f-a.jpg&hash=e63128cc25febcbda6cce122a387f7e34389e1b0)
Whilst looking for that photo I came across this one, which appears to have a number of interesting aerodynamic aids:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.c-cnc.com%2Fqc%2Fgq%2Ffile%2F20063101323030.jpg&hash=843429285ca6ca1c9ec3e83d7d91ddb67fd79781)
Here's an interesting comparison of the front of a Cityliner next to a more conventional bus:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.man-mn.com%2Fdatapool%2Fimagepool%2Fc0007%2FTGA%26amp%3BNeoplan_01.jpg&hash=6fbd37087d7a47cc0464737912057f96fa55dc02)
Lastly, a concept drawing showing an idea for an aerodynamic rear (and enclosed rear wheels) on a modern bus. No attempt to smooth the airflow off the roof though:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.designtriangle.com%2Fimages%2FSetra-Elegance-rear-view_tm.jpg&hash=167560861feba62348d21ad589ad8d5c68ed07f2)
Jeremy
Great stuff John and Jeremy!!!!!! Thanx!!
By the way, those are some cool looking bus pictures Jeremy!! The blue Cityliner is WAAAAAAY cool. But then I like that Setra S6 too!
So many bus's, so little time!
Chaz
Hey SKIP!!!!!!!! Do ya know anywhere I could get some sort of technical data or at least "rule of thumb" for a visor? I'm really liking that idea. And before I go putting time into creating something, or asking Songman to give me a better idea of what it would look like, I'd like to know if there is any info out there.
Thanx buddy!
Chaz,
Mostly the school of hard knocks! I put a Visor on my 48 Dodge pickup (389 3 dueces on a 68 Chevy pu frame) it came off an early 50's Chevy sedan. The visor is set up so the angle can be changed. Side supports and a center support. I'll take some pix so you can see. (probably have to do it later this evening)
Lessons learned.
Allow some space between the visor and the cab. (almost ripped off at 80mph) The force is quit substantual.
The angle makes a diff on how much air it grabs.
14 gauge (about what it is) is a little light and still flexes quit a bit.
FWIW
Skip
I don't think a visor is going to gain you any perfomance.
You "don't think" or you "know"? >:(
I admit I do not know........and there are newer trucks with OEM apendages that I am sure are designed with help of a windtunnel either to aid airflow or to Fix a design problem elswere. I would not call any of these a Visor like we are talking about here ala 50's choped car style.
One would have to allow all air going under the visor the ability to escape without creating preasure under the visor. Preasure under the visor will craet an eddy thus drag.
thats what the Spoiler on the rear of some high end motorhomes and the like are attempting to do...reduce the Eddy by creating an artificial streamline
please excuse daughter is tearing apart to rebuild :)
How about ala pre 50 8)
The second pic show how the center adjust is set-up.
To much pressure will rip the visor off!
Skip
Nice old Dodge. I had a 46 International pickup street rod a few years ago.
Songman thanks.
The daughter was wound up about the rust on the Aerodyne sleeper part.
I told her she was just getting ready to own an Eagle.
Boy you got to start these kids early. She is already looking on E-bay for a bus for her family.
I must have done something right (oh lord what have I done) ;D
Later
Skip
Neat truck. (for a Mopar! ;D lol J/K after a certain age, they're ALL cool!) I have a '39 Chevy truck that I may have to sell to be able to afford my bus. Bummer!!! I'm not one who sells anything!!
I also have a visor for the'51 Chevy Sedan I'm choppin. Probably can't use it after I get the lid lowered down to where I want it.
I don't think I would use that particular style of visor. It's a little too round for the bus. But I think keeping it on the "rounded side" would be important for looks. I would want to slant it down as much as feasible and possible to try to get the benefit - However small, tekebird.- that it could create.
I have been watching semi's a bit more closely on how they have theirs and some of them on what looks like conventional Petes have almost a grader blade look to them. That's a little too much i think.
When I get some drawings done, I'll put them out for critiques! ;) ;D
Ol' skool bussin,
Chaz
just a stupid thought but as we all know the worst part is the vacume created at the rear. most of the air entering the engine bay seems to be designed to flow out the bottom of the bay. I know my Eagle has very limited air flow through the rear door. could you not gain by letting the vacume at the rear pull the air out of the engine bay which by theory move more air through the bay reducing temps and reduce the vacume at the rear to help reduce drag?
Steve
1981 Eagle 10
also while a spoiler on the front to reduce under chassis air is great I dont know how long it would live as the overhang from the front tires makes drives and parking lots tough. I know mine has hit the ground a time or 50 in its transit days.
I took a good look at a newer Freighliner today with an OEM Visor.
looks to me that most of it's work is done by directing the airflow that hits the windshield and goes up.....onto /parallel to the roof where it then hits the big aerodynamic cap which basically does the same thing for the trailer.
it's outlets were above cab roof level
I took some pics but can't get them out of the camera.
front surface of the visor is the exact angle or damn near exact as the windshield.
and from the looks the distance between the edge of the visor and the windshield is the same as the exit holes size.
Chaz -
Thought you might be interested in something "The Factory" did with a bus model in terms of a visor. This is an MCI MC-6. Have only found one pic that shows the roof above the windshield, and it's a poor photo, so I didn't scan it. Anyway, look closely at the photo I have posted. The dark spots on either side of the center "Michigan Marker" lights are the fleet number. On the roof there are longitudinally-oriented slotted vents running from fleet number to fleet number, roughly corresponding to that little "hump" in the trim, to allow the air trapped by the visor to escape.
Did these contribute to increased fuel mileage?? As big as this monster was in it's day (1969 - 1970), and the thirsty 12V71 that powered it initially, it was probably a moot point!
FWIW & HTH. . .
Thanx Russ.
That is probably a more functional visor as for the sun, as you noted. Looks pretty cool, but I think I am going to try to get some aero out of it by making it slant down more and a bit longer. Plus I think I can make it blend in a little better with the lines of the bus also.
I'm not sure I will put openings at the rear where the visor meets the bus. I am looking more at possibly louvering it. But until I do up a sketch or two, I won't know. The louvers may take away from it. ???
Thanx again for digging around for a photo for me!!!!
Chaz
I am surprised that someone has not posted a photo of the Eagle with an extended snout for your viewing pleasure. I do not have a photo of it, but I saw it while at Dallas's last get together. It extended out about ten feet I believe from where the normal front end of the Eagle was and as I recall you could not see the end of it from the drivers seat. Must really be a bitch trying to make a right hand turn into a two lane street. Maybe impossible. Hopefully Gary of someone will post a photo for you.
Richard
Richard,
Are you talking about "Home Grown Diesel"? I am familiar with that bus. He's a helluva nice guy and I want to pick his brain one of these days on WVO. I just have too many irons in the fire right now.
I actually asked him to weigh in if he had any info he thought i could use.
But I want it stay -maybe- a little more original. ;)
Chaz
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on August 20, 2007, 06:08:45 AM
I am surprised that someone has not posted a photo of the Eagle with an extended snout for your viewing pleasure. I do not have a photo of it, but I saw it while at Dallas's last get together. It extended out about ten feet I believe from where the normal front end of the Eagle was and as I recall you could not see the end of it from the drivers seat. Must really be a bitch trying to make a right hand turn into a two lane street. Maybe impossible. Hopefully Gary of someone will post a photo for you.
Richard
This one? It's definitely different! There is another one that I am thinking of that is not so outrageous. I'll see if I can find a picture of it too.
Click for larger picture.(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumb9.webshots.net%2Ft%2F20%2F20%2F9%2F28%2F19%2F2114928190076768549evukzv_th.jpg&hash=917a919c1406bd4166de9e8d1eb778f1e222d8cb) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2114928190076768549evukzv)
More...(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumb9.webshots.net%2Ft%2F30%2F466%2F9%2F3%2F27%2F2265903270076768549pAQfvM_th.jpg&hash=d43e5a43ad4745fe9516545a88076d2065235965) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2265903270076768549pAQfvM)
Yep. Thats the one. Really a lot of work and thought went into this beauty.
Richard
Quote from: Songman on August 20, 2007, 05:10:03 PM
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on August 20, 2007, 06:08:45 AM
I am surprised that someone has not posted a photo of the Eagle with an extended snout for your viewing pleasure. I do not have a photo of it, but I saw it while at Dallas's last get together. It extended out about ten feet I believe from where the normal front end of the Eagle was and as I recall you could not see the end of it from the drivers seat. Must really be a bitch trying to make a right hand turn into a two lane street. Maybe impossible. Hopefully Gary of someone will post a photo for you.
Richard
This one? It's definitely different! There is another one that I am thinking of that is not so outrageous. I'll see if I can find a picture of it too.
Click for larger picture.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumb9.webshots.net%2Ft%2F20%2F20%2F9%2F28%2F19%2F2114928190076768549evukzv_th.jpg&hash=917a919c1406bd4166de9e8d1eb778f1e222d8cb) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2114928190076768549evukzv)
More...
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumb9.webshots.net%2Ft%2F30%2F466%2F9%2F3%2F27%2F2265903270076768549pAQfvM_th.jpg&hash=d43e5a43ad4745fe9516545a88076d2065235965) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2265903270076768549pAQfvM)
There is another one that I am thinking of that retains more of the Eagle look. It has a fiberglass car type nose on it and the bus is smooth sided. The pictures I have seen are from a show and the bus is in primer.
Finally found that other picture I was looking for. It was right here on the forum in the photo topic.
Not really an airdam but more streamlined in the front anyway...
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.busconversions.com%2Fbbs%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D2547.0%3Battach%3D569%3Bimage&hash=9a3e4c20cc5ef0420256a703cea97aa7a8dd7e05)
OK Chaz,
you need to buid one of these and stick on the bus.
http://quantumgravitics.tripod.com/id3.html (http://quantumgravitics.tripod.com/id3.html)
Sounds like the 100mpg carburetor.
Hey Thanx Songman! Pretty sleek looking bus. But I think it could still use a damn. Opps, "air dam". ;) :D lol
I think the way the top is stair-stepped on a Buffalo makes it a bit more stream lined. Is it enough to make a difference? Only a wind tunnel can tell. But I still like the idea of a dam....even if its just for looks.
Thanx again for looking up that pic.
To air is human, to have a bus......... DIVINE!!!
Chaz
the Step on a Buff is NOT aerodynamically efficient
If you want to Aero your Buff
Step One: Put an Eagle cap on the front of it.
Step two: Take stuff off the roof
Step three: Don't put a cap on the back
Step four: Ground effects, but never drive the bus on anything but highway because you will rip them off
Step five: Put that bullet train nose add on on the front
Chaz
I've seen this on e-bay before but it is the ultimate on aerodynamics.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Boeing-727-Jet-Limo-Built-on-a-Mercedes-Bus-seats-50_W0QQitemZ130147708496QQihZ003QQcategoryZ6728QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Boeing-727-Jet-Limo-Built-on-a-Mercedes-Bus-seats-50_W0QQitemZ130147708496QQihZ003QQcategoryZ6728QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
Enjoy
Skip
HA!!!!!!!!! Thanx Skip!!! I love it!!!!!
Chaz
But that bird is 9 foot 8 inches wide. Wider than any legal vehicle. I wonder if you have to have a wide load caravan everytime you drive it?
Quote from: H3Jim on August 28, 2007, 08:08:03 AM
But that bird is 9 foot 8 inches wide. Wider than any legal vehicle. I wonder if you have to have a wide load caravan everytime you drive it?
SSshhh! That's a minor detail that if ya don't tell anyone they won't notice! Besides being what it is folks will be paying more attention to other things than to as how wide it is! Also being round it's only that wide in a small part of it so it don't count! OK, OK have I BS's that one thru? LOL !
;D BK ;D
Check this out:http://www.dieselboss.com/wedge.htm (http://www.dieselboss.com/wedge.htm)
Chaz,
If you are going to use some belting as an airdam, have you thought about installing it as a curve under the bus as opposed to a flat face across the front? possibly even in a V? or something to the effect? Just a thought.
Thanx Skihor!!!!! Good stuff!!
And you took the thoughts right out of my mind NewBee!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D I think there may be something to this. I think I still want to do an airdam, if for nothing else than the "cool factor". ;D But I'm also thinking some wedge type design under the bus may have some impact.
Oh to have a pocket full of money and a wind tunnel at my disposal!! ;) :D But then, when I get to that part, I may try the ribbons taped to the bus and and a car along side to see what happens. I just need to find the time.
Thanx guys,
Chaz
Chaz, if you get an accurate fuel meter, you can see the effect of drag changes directly in your fuel consumption.
The hard part is setting up your tests so that you get a fair comparison.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey
Good thought Tom. I'm not sure how they work, but it's my guess that it would be complicated. Especially since fuel goes back to the tank also. Maybe I can find something like that from a Semi boneyard. ???
Fuelin around,
Chaz
Quote from: ChazOh to have a pocket full of money and a wind tunnel at my disposal!! ;) :D Thanx guys,
Chaz
Chaz come on down to the bus bash! I can't guarantee a wind tunnel, but I can assure you of a lot of wind! (from all the bus
lies stories being told!)
;D BK ;D
Yeah, Jerry has been tempting me!!! And it's killin me!!! :P But I just had a weekend off last weekend so now I'm kinda behind the 8 ball. (I tend to work all the time to stay afloat) I need to try to afford my new hobby, even tho that means not being able to play with it. :'(
But hopefully we will be able to make one in the near future. I think the next big endeavor will be WVO so I can get a break on fuel costs.
Easy on all that wind down there!
Chaz
Chaz, the fuel flow meters for diesels use two sensors, one for the supply and one for the return. The meter deducts one from the other.
I don't think that they are very complicated, but they tend to be pricey.
You might look at used small airplane equipement because most use some kind of flow meter.
They are very useful in boats, as well, to set RPM for best fuel economy.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey
Thanx Tom. That really would be a helpful little tool.