OK, we've been on the road for a full day since our in-frame at PEDCO, and we still have at least one problem still with us.
Before I get to that, thanks to everyone who helped with the problems thus far, including sources for the fuel pressure switch. And, to everyone who has inquired about the in-frame, how we fared at PEDCO, and what the original source of that problem was, please check our blog. I will post the information over there later tonight, just so I don't have to type it all in three places.
Now, as for the ongoing problems: we are still overheating. Originally, I thought that the overheating, black smoke, and low power were all related. The low power and the smoke were easily explained by the fact that the engine was "dirted out." This is a condition in which dirt particles have entered the engine through the air induction system, and, over time, have worn the cylinders smooth and the rings loose, just like sandpaper. After enough of this, the rings no longer make a good seal, resulting in low compression (thus the lack of power) and excessive blow-by (thus the smoke).
The engine has now been completely rebuilt, at least as far as can be while still in the frame. So I have eight new cylinders, pistons, and ring sets, two completely rebuilt heads, a rebuilt turbo, and all new bearings. Also, four of the eight injectors were replaced, since they tested marginal. So, in theory, I have an essentially new engine.
Nevertheless, we are still having a tremendous heat problem. Now, the 8V92TA is probably the most heat-producing automotive engine ever built, and we've always had to slow down for the grades to keep the engine temps in the black. But this is beyond the pale -- today, climbing Union grade from Laughlin to Kingman, a 12-mile, 6% affair, we had to slow down to 15mph in first gear, and, even then, I had to pull over and stop twice, where the high-idle still took close to ten minutes to bring the temperature back down into the 190's. So something is still amiss.
With that background, here are my questions:
(1) Can this be something other than a cooling system issue? In other words, can there be some sort of, for example, combustion problem that is generating all this excess heat? I am particularly worried about this because, during the rebuild, they found one cylinder with seized rings. With different injectors and new liner, rings, and valves, it's hard for me to imagine what sort of problem could have existed before the rebuild that could be still with us, but, please, educate me.
(2) I am hoping that this is just a cooling system issue, that developed independently of the other problems. In which case, I have to guess that the three most likely possibilities are thermostat problems, water pump problems, or radiator problems. Where would you start, and what methods would you use to isolate the problem further?
(3) I am further guessing that the thermostats are OK, since I see the same temps on both sides of the block with my IR gun, and the temp eventually drops, under no-load, to 180 or so and stays there. Does that make sense?
(4) I suspect the water pump. That's because turning on my hydronic system's engine pre-heat pump *seems* to have helped (it's hard to say without truly objective data, meaning multiple load runs under identical conditions) a small bit. So here's the $64K question: is there a way to confirm this suspicion without removing it?
(5) What is involved in R&R on the water pump? I don't have a Detroit manual (other than the DDEC troubleshooting guide), so please don't just cite page numbers. I'm already guessing I'm going to have to drain several gallons of coolant (shame we didn't look at this while the motor was still empty), but how hard is it to get to the impeller?
Thanks in advance for any and all help.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean,
I am going to preface this and say I don't have a clue as to what to say, I am hoping others will have more experience with problems of this nature. But, it sounds like you are using the same logic that I would if it were me. I am going to throw this out there randomly, who knows, it might add something.
My grandfather bought a Cadillac new in '67. Every so many years that car would burn a valve in the same cylinder. It baffled everyone. Why after four or five years did he keep having to replace the same valve? Finally, sometime in the 90's, some mechanic found that there was a casting defect in the head that caused a restriction in the cooling passage around that valve. It was not 100% blocked, so the valve would always die a slow death, and it was also not outwardly visible, so I don't know how they found it. After the head was replaced he never had a problem. I'm not saying you have a casting defect, but could something have happened that might be causing a partial blockage somehow?
Totally off subject, I just wanted to let you know how much I have enjoyed your blog. Your Odyssey page was one of the first I stumbled across back when I was just getting interested in busses, and one of the first to make it into my favorites. Thanks for taking the time to always share your adventures, good or bad. It has inspired at least one bus nut.
Good Luck,
Laryn
Sean, what kind of shape is your radiator(s) in? Have you cleaned it (them) lately? Then there's the fan and shroud... they need to be in good shape, too. Once a DD is not loaded, it should cool down very quickly, assuming pump, rad., fan, and airflow are in good shape.
Something else to consider,
Brian B.
Brian,
The radiators were just cleaned (externally) by W. W. Williams in Las Vegas. The fans and shrouds are fine, and the fans are spinning as they always have. Belts were just tensioned at PEDCO.
That's why I've asked specifically about the water pump and what other steps I can take to isolate the trouble.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean, I fabricated a coolant flow tester many years ago. Our engines had a male style quick release fitting installed in the water jacket of the left bank head. This was called a Hanson fitting - as I was told.
The test device was a length of automotive heater hose with a hollow glass tube in the center of it. One end had a female style quick release valve - hanson valve on it, the other end remained open. I would connect my coolant flow tester to the male fitting on the head, put the other side into the coolant surge tank. Start engine, watch tube fill up with coolant, now rev the engine and look for faster coolant flow,air bubbles in system,poor flow,etc.This allowed me to determine if impeller was slipping on water pump shaft.
The water pump impeller is not keyed to the shaft, has a tapered fit.
You can probably use a length of clear hose today, not messing with a glass tube.
I'll look around to try to find you info on the Hanson fitting - transit bus applications and maybe others too.
It had a 3/4' id with pipe threads. Works great for me.
Good luck .
Sammy 8)
Hmmmmm,..................
I would suspect Radiator with all you have done. Did this probelm just show up or did it creep it's way into being a problem.
Have you added coolant lately?
Have you tested your coolant lately?
mixing coolant types can easy FUBAR a radiator as it creates a nice sinus infection consitantcy snot that will clog a radiator in no time.
last cooling issue I had was due to this contamination.....and resulted in a radiator that was at testing 70% clogged ( symptoms only showed on grades)
Sean, does your bus have a fan clutch if so i would check it first
I tried this with some small success. - Just after initial start-up, IR the exhaust port of each cylinder for significant temp differences - especially the "bad" cylinder if you know which one that is.
I don't know what is normal, but does radiator in vs. radiator out IR temperatures appear reasonable?
MCI's are noted for cooling problems. Is the Neoplan known for marginal cooling? If so, you may be looking for a number of items deteriorating rather than a silver bullet.
If you are unable to identify the cooling problem, you might try the Yahoo Detroit Diesel Group. They have a couple of 2 cycle mechanics that frequent it.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DetroitDiesel/
Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
Sean- As to heating-that can be an internal radiator problem. If the radiator is of the normal heavy duty design with bolted together top and bottom tanks, it isn't that big of a deal to have a radiator shop open it up to have a look-see. Also, maybe you'd want to upgrade your core like I did. I went from a 5 row straight fin to the more modern 6 row serpentine fin. I'd like to know how big your core is-can you measure the actual fin area height and width?
Is this the first time you've had heating problems? Remember too you have a new engine that is going to be tighter hence creating more friction with the associated heating.
Course the one thing you didn't mention was the outside temperature-what was it 100-110 degrees? You might also have to set up a misting system like I did. I found that when a big hill (like the Grapevine) comes up, I turn on the misters before hitting the hill. Granted, I only went up the Grapevine at 32mph, but it stayed below 200 degrees and pulled it the whole way. I am restricted to size of radiator-of which I now have the biggest.
As to your water pump, typically Detroit pumps will either not pump at all, like if the impeller severed from the shaft, or they will start leaking if the seals are bad. They are a simply designed pump that rarely goes bad. But with the placement of your engine, would be relatively easy to replace it since it is facing you when you open the engine compartment.
I believe that the seized ring was caused by the dirt. As long as you're using sae40 Delo 100 type oil, you should be alright. My first truck went 500,000 miles on its' 8V-92TA before overhaul. So now without dirt induction, you should theoretically be alright for a few more years. Good Luck, TomC
Sammy has a good idea there - may even wan't to slap a pressure gauge on and test the pressure at that locale - if the impeller is damaged it won't be able to build vacuum/pressure to spec -HTH
Sean I saw on the BNS group where you were talinking about dirt in the airbox and Silicates in the oil?
aren't you the guy who tools down desert roads and crosses sandwashes and dry creekbeds with his Neoplan....
Maybe it's someone else??????????
At any rate...if thee is he than that would be where the dirt/silcates are someing from no highway bus was ever designed to operate in such environments.
my guess is your radiator is restricted internally
I have a MCI 7 with 8V92 and Allison 740 trans. When I bought the bus it would overheat. I put in new 6 row baffled radiators, new seals on the squirrel cages, smaller pulleys as well as a extra radiator. It also has misters on all three radiators. I still have to watch my speed on long grades and keep my foot out of it. I found by opening up the rear doors on a long climb it will drop the temp 10 to 15 degrees. Yes it look funny going up a hill, but I don't care as long as I make the top without going over 205 degrees. I also don't care at what speed I make the top.
ED
MCI 7
I understand buses aren't designed as off road vehicles, but shouldn't the air filter be able to filter out the fine sand and dust? The bigger issue could be any loose connections on the air intake lines.
I am planning to drive about 10 to 15 miles across a dusty dry lake bed every year. I'm hoping this won't be enough to wreck a $20,000 engine. I suppose I better check all of the air intake connections on my bus before I go this fall.
one must remeber tyhat filter elements are speced for different applications. it does not take buch to breach a paper filter that is not designed for off road, or poor environments or one that is worn to some extent already. and itdoes not take much to ruin an engine either.
problem is keeping your speed down can depending on how your bus is designed creat a huge dust cloud forward of your air intake.
conversly, higher speed kicks up more dirt from front and rear tires
ideally you need a roof mounted intake or a snorkle of some sort to get above this aerated dust for clean air.
back to the arguement for or against oil bath air filters........
I for one having had to service oil bath filters from my wee young years while forced into child labor for my parents Carter bus company that a huge ammount of dirt gets filtered by GM Style oil bath filters. the ammount of dirt that was trapped in one service cycle 15k or so would have clogged a paper element of consideable size several times.......and this is highway intake air.
Brian I would find myself a open non vegitated dirt lot and see what the charactristics of your bus create.
I know my A/C fans or my Genset both exhausting out the bottom will double the ammount of airborn dirt my bus creates (Each)
After reading Sean's blog it appears that he used a non paper 2 stage air filter element like a K&N. Please everyone-use only quality paper elements with the AC Delco element being the best at filtering (as tested-can't quite remember the source). The only real use for a K&N is in a race engine that is taken apart frequently-not in our buses that we are trying for several hundreds of thousand miles. Good Luck, TomC
Tom,
Yes, it was an oiled-cotton filter. But the real problem was that the gasket at the bottom of the cartridge was too thin, and a lot of air (and dirt) merely bypassed the filter through that gap.
Tekebird: I drive about 20,000 miles each year. Of those, fewer than 1% are on dirt. By contrast, Princess Tours has a fleet of MCI's in Alaska that spend nearly half their lives on dirt (the Alyeska haul road, AKA Dalton Highway), and I am aware of several major US operators that run significant numbers of miles on dirt roads. In fact, you may be aware that Greyhound operated its early coaches on large stretches of dirt roads. Neoplans in South America spend huge portions of their lives on dirt. So please, don't tell me that the coaches are not designed for it -- they most certainly are, and the specified filtration should handle it, albeit with reduced maintenance intervals. (Mind you, we're not talking about off-roading here -- these are dirt roads.)
If you think you can stay off the dirt entirely, I will tell you that you've just ruled out staying in 95% or better of national park, national forest, COE, BLM, and other federal campgrounds, and probably something in excess of 30% of state parks, and, while we don't do it much, I'm pretty sure that even many private campgrounds have dirt roads or unpaved pads.
The bottom line is that I had a failure of filtration. That's going to dust an engine no matter where you drive -- it will just take a little longer on the pavement.
One of the issues that I am grappling with is that the last three shops that changed my oil failed to pull samples, even though I asked for samples to be pulled each time. Had the first (or maybe second, I don't remember where in all this the suspect filter got installed) shop I asked followed my instructions, I might have gotten a report on silicates in the oil in time to correct the problem before I needed an in-frame. Lesson learned: I will be standing behind the technician from now on each and every time the oil is drained, and make sure they pull the damn sample. And, by the way, at least one of the shops is a shop that is regularly discussed on this board in glowing terms -- anyone can screw up.
The other lesson I learned is to put some grease around the gasket before installing the filter, and make sure that said grease leaves an imprint at the back of the canister.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Stay away from Idaho if you think buses are not to be driven on dirt and gravel roads
If you drive where it snows you drive in sand. If you drive through the desserts you drive on sand. If you drive where there is farming/construction you drive on dirt. What do you think that stuff is that hits your windshield when it rains and someone blows by you? You don't have to get off pavement to drive in some nasty conditions. Now where did I put that oil sample kit?
I'm stumped as well. Here are a few guesses.
Before the rebuild you noted unusual heating. With fresh engine now it tends to eliminate it as the culprit. Same with fuel delivery and you were all over the filters prior to bringing into the shop. Low pressure "should" have shown up at Pedco or Williams. Bad load fuel- maybe, but I doubt fuel systems.
That leaves cooling system. It's sure a long shot that the water pump is missing a vane or two resulting in lower flow. They tend to work or not, or work and just leak! If it had a severed or freewheeling shaft it would seem you would overheat way before pulling a grade.
You have not mentioned if you are loosing coolant. I bet not as this would catch you eye early on. If the radiator cap was acting up and not keeping correct pressure, that would cause heating. And also slowly loose coolant to evaporation. Bet the cap is ok but cheap to replace and rule out ( is the pressure rating correct?)
Thermostat. Possibility stuck. Does it warm up at usual when cold? If stuck it may take a little longer. Longshot again, but cheap to replace.
My final guess-----fan clutch. You said it pulls strong when idling, "can't stand behind it". And it cools the bus down at fast idle during a hill climb. Good.
The problem area is at speed/load its not transferring all the power necessary to drive the fan properly.
Only when you are asking for the max from the cooling system puts enough stress on the system to show the problem. During city driving it still may be present but there is enough overhead in the cooling system to give the appearance of normal function.
* Now if you don't have fan clutch please remove my foot from my mouth!!
** Can't tell you how to test a fan clutch.
***Sean I have been so intrigued by your bus mysteries I think I will start reading murder mysteries again! :)
Good Luck!
Sean,
If by chance it is the thermostatic fan clutch, I have three that you can have for free when you're passing through this area. Two were off my Skyliner and one off a Mega. At least one should be good. Might not be a bad idea to carry one for a spare since I doubt you'll find one at the local truck parts store.
Russ
Thanks, Russ, I will take you up on that.
Since you've already got them off, perhaps you can tell me if there is any kind of manual lock-up on them? I can't see any, but it's hard to get to the back side of them.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
They are at home, 50 miles away, so I'm relying on memory and that is aging like your cooling system; but as I recall there is a thermostatic coil on the forward side. The housing is die cast aluminum and the blades some type molded plastic. I never looked for any "fill" device, but don't recall any. They attach with four bolts to the shaft on the opposite side of the v-belt pulley. I think they come off without pulling the shroud, but can't swear to that.
They look like the thermostatic fans I grew up with on small block Chev motors, just larger and of course - being German they are metric.
I don't know their condition since I never ran this bus with the 8V, but since it was in operation shuttleing gamblers from Phoenix to LV in the 90's they have had about 10 years of R&R.
And no manual lock-up visible.
I hate to even suggest this after all you have been through but here is another thing to check:
Have a smog shop probe your radiator fill with engine running. Hopefully it will not detect anything. However, if it detects exhaust gases it may point to a crack in the head or block (or head gasket;but yours is new) which would also explain your heating issue. Ugg.
But, a cracked block will also slowly loose coolant and you have not mentioned this so I hope this is a dead end.
Still think its a defective fan clutch.
Russ,
From your description, it's not clear that we have the same fans. In any case, I thought a photo would help the whole discussion, so here's my attempt at a picture of the fan hub/coupling:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fourodyssey.us%2FFan.JPG&hash=22afefc8386bbae1a3be4e1bc81fb9c0c61ddf49)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean, with engine cold and not running ,spin the fan with your hand - it should spin freely.
Drive your bus to operating temperature, or more. Shut off engine (no disrespect intended), see if the cooling fan still spins freely. If cooling fan still spins with no resistance, fan clutch is NG.
Good luck. 8)
Sean- that almost looks like a hydraulic fan hub. Is there an air line going to it? Does it cycle on and off? If you have an air line going to it, usually the air releases it, so if you disconnect the air line to the fan clutch it should run continuously. Good Luck, TomC
Sammy -- The fans don't spin "freely" when the engine is off -- I can move them with my hand, but I feel resistance. They won't keep spinning when I take my hand away.
And
Tom -- no air, hydraulic, or electric lines go to the hubs. They are completely on their own.
I've been told these are probably viscous couplings. They certainly feel like they are filled with some viscous substance.
Sammy, does that change your suggestion that I should not be able to move them when they're hot?
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean, there should be more resistance when hot, don't remember if it actually became a direct drive - solid feel, no spin at all. Hope this may help with your troubleshooting. 8)
Something I found..
"The more familiar way that almost all my fan-clutches have failed has been the opposite; they stay loose all the time, so that they're never spinning near engine speed. You can test for this by taking the truck out for a drive to get it warmed up, leaving it running, popping the hood, and then watching the fan as you shut off the engine. A good fan clutch should stop spinning almost immediately; a failed fan-clutch will keep spinning a few turns after the engine is shut off. When you've turned it off and it's still hot, a good fan clutch will give a lot of resistance to being turned by hand, while a bad fan clutch will spin more freely."
Sean,
The fans I have are just like yours, they remind me of when thermostatic fan clutches came out in the 60's on the factory hi-performance cars, like I said, just bigger.
Footnote: turning the hub on each has resistance, but I don't have them mounted like you do where you can turn blades, I just turn the hub and they feel "stiff". And as you can see, there is a small bi-metallic spring on the front that lets these lock-up with heat.
Sean,
It appears that you are sure the fan is viscous. I agree and the hub cooling convinced me. There is no other purpose for hub cooling fins than to cool a liquid.
Sean,
After much grief with fan clutches in a couple of tow vehicles and a med duty truck I have come to the conclusion that the only good fan clutch is one laying on the shop floor replaced by a direct drive hub. Maybe in your bus they are there to allow for quicker warm up or to maintain coach heat when idling or going down hill or to lessen shock loads on the fan drive, but I really don't understand their use in a bus. In front engine vehicles they allow natural flow to cool when available. That never happens in a rear engine bus.
Buy the way, little know factoid, some fan clutches in cars and trucks have a built in mid to high RPM cutout. I noticed on pulls that slightly lugging up the grade ran cooler than shifting down to keep RPMs up, thus my investigation into how the fan clutches really worked. The engineering said if the 'average' vehicle is running above a predetermined RPM there should be enough natural air flow. Not so when towing a couple times the vehicle weight at low speed uphill. I solved two major overheating tow rigs just by putting in direct drive fans. Went from needing to constantly monitor heat gauge to almost forgetting about it with no other changes. You could also hear the fan roar, something that never happened with the clutch.
If you get a good look at the clutch both front and back to see if there is ANY evidence of leakage around the little shaft attached to the bi metal actuator or where the drive shaft enters on the other side you have trouble. It takes very little loss of fluid to leave you with a clutch that will slip.
Since you are not concerned with keeping paying passengers warm or saving a few drops of diesel I would opt out of the fan clutch club unless someone can give you a very good reason to keep them. But thats just the redneck in me talking. :) The PC in me says just say NO. :)
Hope you get back to carefree busing soon.
Don
Sean- I would HIGHLY recommend you just plainly remove that viscous fan and use a solid mount continuous fan. All reasons previously mentioned are valid. I had a viscous fan in one of my trucks (6V-92TA), and noticed that when it heated up would work great at up to about 1800rpm where you could here the fan come up to speed. If you went above 1800rpm, the fan would disengage causing the engine to heat up. Probably what is happening to you with keeping the engine revved up. I have a gear drive on my bus so that with a reverse rotation engine (V-drive) I use a standard 8 blade right handed aluminum fan. From what I can tell with your picture, it looks like a 6 blade fan. I would suggest a 8 blade fan of the same diameter with at least a 3" pitch going through a direct drive solid fan hub. The bit more fuel that is burned will be more than offset by the simplicity of having no fan clutch, and that you'll be getting maximum cooling. The thermostats in the 8V-92TA will keep the engine warm enough in winter. All viscous fans when hot at idle give the impression of working correctly-that's why when you walk behind the bus you do feel them blowing. But believe me, at engine speed, they are not doing as good a job as you'd think they are. Good Luck, TomC
Sean if you do need a new fan clutch you may want to look at the Horton pneumatic i have one on my Eagle and they are great when going on dusty roads because you can turn it off to keep the dust down or in the winter to keep the engine warm and it has a manual lockup in case of any problems with the air supply.I am sorry you are having so many problems but have a good day
If you plan on doing any cool or cold weather driving, I suggest you consider keeping some kind of clutch on the fan. On my 8V92 the fan was controlled by external line. I suspect it was temperature, but I never found out for sure.
In order to try and eliminate an over temperature problem, I had the clutch removed and the fan replaced with a larger fan by the boys up in Oregon. It did help my overheating problem some, but never really cured it.
When I got back to WV the next winter and the temperatures dropped down into the 20's and 30's I had a significant problem getting the engine up even close to normal operating temperatures. It would stay down in the120-130 range. Not warm enough for the heater to warm the bus. I had to run the Webasto to get some heat. I finally started putting a throw rug up against the radiator to block out the air which did help a lot. I would completely block the radiator and the temperature would then climb up to the 180 mark. I just watched the temperature and when it started getting warmer outside and the engine temperature started to climb above the 180 mark I would stop and remove the throw rug.
Richard
PS That is why you see so many OTR trucks with big black covers over the radiator. Usually adjustable so that they can be used to only cover a portion of the radiator as needed.
Years ago, the engine manufacturers went to shutterless cooling systems-meaning that the thermostats now on engines are good enough where you don't need any kind of radiator shutters (the metal shutters that would open and close automatically). If you're travelling in extreme cold-like below zero, then a radiator winter front (canvas cover) will keep the temp up since the frontal movement of the truck will keep the engine to cool for heat. If you do drive in a winter situation, I would run during summer with the fan on continuously, and then on thermostatic control during winter. Best yet is to have a air powered on/off fan clutch then have a dash switch that you can turn on the fan from the drivers seat. Nearly every truck I sell has that feature.
When I was driving, I had the fan control switch on the dash and before I got to a hill climb I would switch on the fan to pre-cool the radiator for the pull.
Sean- If you don't want a continuous running fan, which might be too much for winter and create dust on dirt roads, install a true on/off, or a two speed fan that drags when off. You typically don't want a true on/off since with a side mount radiator, there isn't any kind of flow through it-you should have one that drags in the off position. If you do go with a on/off, you could wire it with a off-on-on switch, so that off would be exactly that, first on could be thermostatic automatic control and the second on could be continuously on. But once again I HIGHLY recommend you get away from the viscous fan!!! Good Luck, TomC
Thanks for the excellent explanation Tom. I have to reiterate what many others have said, It is a pleasure to have you and your knowledge on the board.
Richard
Well, the discussion seems to have narrowed down to fan speed. I'm unconvinced that this is the problem. First off, these are the same fans I've always had. So this can't be the problem unless one of the couplings has stopped working properly. I'm still hunting for an optical tach to confirm this, but visual inspection shows the fans to be running at pretty much full speed.
That being said, if it is the fans, fixing the bad coupling(s) will be the easiest course of action. And I do have the offer of identical take-outs, should one or both couplings be bad. I say this because, of course, it's a weird German bus with weird fans and couplings -- this is probably not a case of calling Luke at US Coach or Joe's Radiator shop and giving them a diameter and speed and asking for a fan, or a coupling. It's much more likely that I will have to have all the mounting hardware, up to and including the (metric) fan pulleys, removed and completely replaced with something that will accept more common US-spec fans. To borrow/corrupt a nautical term, that will cost at least a "bus unit" (=$1,000) to have done, bearing in mind that I have neither the skills nor equipment to do this sort of fabrication myself.
The second-easiest solution, if fan couplings prove to be the source of the problem, would be for me to have a welder tack the shafts to the housings -- no easy feat, since I think that's going to be stainless to aluminum.
All that being said, I am leaning towards the silicate gelation theory. Having the radiators flushed out is a (relatively) cheap and easy thing to try.
Does anyone know what the recommended caustic solution is for removing silicate deposits?
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
I believe DD does not recomend flushing with anything but low pressure water - FWIW
Quote from: niles500 on August 09, 2007, 10:42:38 AM
I believe DD does not recomend flushing with anything but low pressure water - FWIW
Thanks, Niles. I was working from this, from Detroit publication 7se390, "Cooling System Technician's Guide," page 11, "Silicate Gelation":
Quote
... The only way to remove small amounts of this gel is to agitate the components in a caustic solution. Care must be taken so that the O-rings, gaskets, seals, and aluminum parts are not damaged. ...
It does not say whether or not the radiator is one of the "components" which can be agitated in a caustic solution. Nor does it say what specific caustic agent should be used. So I was hoping someone here would know...
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Now I see Sean - okay, first I found this scary bit of instructions:
Unfortunately, there are few effective methods for cleaning the gel from an already-clogged system. Radiators must be removed and sent out for a thorough cleaning. The engine must be flushed with a caustic solution. The gel is not water soluble, so flushing with water alone will not work
But try this Penray # 1-800-322-2143 for the products below - HTH
Penray 2001On-Line Cooling System Cleaner• Cleans diesel engine cooling systems while they remain in service• Eliminates light scale and limited corrosion formation• Removes harmful mineral and oxide deposits• Excellent alternative to in-shop cleaning
Penray 2015 Twin Pac Off-Line Cooling System Cleaner and Conditioner• Combines 2010 Cleaner and 2011 Conditioner• Removes harmful scale and sludge deposits from the entire cooling system• Removes corrosion deposits• Removes green slime• Removes oil deposits• Flushes the cooling system of loosened deposits• Removes any accumulated oil• Conditions the metal surfaces
Niles,
Thanks, great information.
I'm going to look for a shop that can (1) test the pump and (2) flush the system, possibly with the products you mentioned. It looks like there is a Detroit dealer in Liberal, KS, which is on our way east.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean,
With what I can see in the above pixs, you have the basics to built direct drive hubs. If you use the take out clutches you should saw off and keep the hubs where they bolt to the drive pulley/shaft before you toss the old clutches. I can't tell whether the ring where the fan bolts to the clutch is a reenforcement or molded into the fan. They would not take much space to save, or mail them to me for safe keeping. In the rigs that I converted to direct drive that is where I started.
If they are like the typical Detroit iron, the hub that bolts to the drive just barely fits through the fan and ring that mounts the fan. I welded the drive hub to the fan and installed a spacer with bolts replacing the studs in the drive (water pump) just like they were built before fan clutches. In your case the fan ring would be used for a pattern to build an adapter.
If you find the problem is the fan drives, and you get it working with the take out parts and want a set of direct drive hubs to fall back on, I could probably built you a couple hubs this winter. I would need the whole fan/clutch assemblies and some additional info to do it properly. Let me know.
Don 4107
Well, it turned out to be a restriction in the fuel return line, causing low power and poor injector cooling. More details in another thread, here:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5153.msg48593#msg48593
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com