I have a mid 80s Eagle with a 6v92 and when I'm running along I see those new Prevost whiz by me like I'm tied to a tree and I'm running 70-75 mph...I want to upgrade to a 60 series Detroit or a 400 Cummings or something So I'm not eattin Prevost dust from now on..I cant do it now because of the time it will take, But I want to do my home work and get things lined up before I start..Which is the best engine to swap it with and just how big of a job is it...I have alot of help from Classic coach,Star coach and a few bus mechanics here local in Lakeland Florida..Any advice would be greatly appreciated
You can certainly do most anything with enough MONEY!!!>>>Dan
Well when I bought the bus it wasnt about money it was about having fun..Im having fun with less money now....lol...I know its expensive but its my baby and she deserves the best
70to75MPH,and you want to go faster????Do what what Dan did,propane inject it,and then hang on...........Frank
Well to be honest some of you know I work for a country artist and her personal bus is a Prevost with a 60 series and they always leave me behind and Im tired of it ...I wanna run with the big boys now Dang it..That 6v92 is a stout engine but she cant hang in there..Our tour season is over in Nov and we wont go back out til March So I want to surprise them...lol
Well, If money were no object,
And a lot of wishful thinking,
How about a Cat 3408BTT? (597 HP) Match it up to a RTLO20913A (.86 OD) then change your rear gears to to 2.73:1
That way, you could run with the big dogs, while pulling a couple of them on chains while they're brakes were set.
Your top end with 43" diameter tires would be 86mph @ 1500rpm. Of course, you could pass anything on the road but a fuel stop! But, Hey, If we're gonna dream, lets dream BIG!
Dallas
GO BUSING!
I thought about a cat..But finding the engine is the big problem,Even If I had to rebuild it myself..I honestly prefer to build it myself that way I know its done right..Money is a option here,But this bus is my hobby,My job (since I refuse to travel in a band bus) and its my relaxation..Some have ATVs some have mud truck and sand rails ..I just happen to have a bus...lol..I dont wanna go over board but I do want them to know something has changed
build you a 600 hp 6v92 like the boats have won't last long but it would be fun
How about a 500hp. 8v92.
An 8v92 is an idea but how do they match up to the 60 series?
"how do they match up to the 60 series?"
Not even close - go with a four cycle engine. The Ser 60 is a million mile+ engine. There fuel mileage is better than the CAT also.
I have an AutoShift 10 spd you can put behind the Ser 60 for excellent fuel mileage.
IMHO
I guess the only thing I would add to the ideas already stated is to be sure to beef up the brakes to go with it. Getting 36,000+ pounds from 0 to 86 takes some serious horsepower and a good set of gears. Getting that same 36,000+ pounds from 86 to 0 in a critical situation takes some very serious brakes, and a change of clothes. ;)
I just smile and wave.... ;D
Paul
I'm doing a Cummins ISM/Eaton Autoshift conversion to my 96A3. The Cummins is a lighter and physically smaller engine than the S60. However, it is also ~600,000 - 700,000 mile engine compared to the S60 at over 1,000,000 - 1,200,000. Both engines have gone longer before overhaul ... but that is about average. The S60 I've heard can be pumped up to over 600 hp while the Cummins is good to 500 (in RV trim only). My particular 2000 ISM good to 450 hp if I choose to have the program burned into the computer.
One thing to note .... a re-power is a lot of SERIOUS hard work and time. Double any and every estimate if you hope to estimate the time and dollars even remotely close to what it will actually take.
Musicman ..I have a 500hp 8V92 in a 82 prevost and I top out around 75 MPH with the stock diff 3.7:1., it would handle 3.5: 1 diff ratio with a 4 speed but not much higher, I have a 6 speed stick in mine. The newer Prevosts are run 6 speeds so they came run at 90 to 100 MPH and still start off the line. So I think you have to look at the total picture engine / tranny / diff ratio. I would do what Brian did and go with a ISM / 10 speed autoshift with 10th gear as a OD.
Ron
My fantasy bus has a 6V92 in it. After reading this board for many years, if money and headaches are no object go for it. It has been done!
Personally and only my opinion, with the prices of buses today I would buy a bus with a 60 series in it. All the engineering has been done and all the nasty little gremlins have been worked out.
As the Prevoosts whizz by, you will be sitting on the side of the road trying to figure out why the transmission will not talk to the engine! Or you will be thinking, they promised me this would not overheat. Actually you will not be sitting on the side of the road, you will be in a Detroit shop somewhere at $150 hour. But what the hay, money is no object and as fast as that bus is you will be able to catch up with the band.
Find a trash truck with a Cummins ISM and Allison 4000 series 6 spd transmission-lot of them in junk yards. Have the Cummins built up to a 525hp and install that. Series 60, Cummins NTC400, Caterpillar 3406 are huge engines. The smaller size of the ISM will make retrofitting much easier. Good Luck, TomC
As my signature shows, I have an Eagle with a Series 60 and AutoShift. That is a great combination.
As others have said, this kind of conversion is not for the faint of heart. A professional conversion will cost $30-40K or more.
I have documented my conversion in some detail on my project pages (link in signature)
I would go with the four stroke as they will not cause heating issues if the cooling system is in good condition. The 8V92 will generally cause heating problems.
We belong to the Eagles International Chapter of FMCA and a fair amount of these buses have had an engine conversion. Most are Series 60 and M11/ISM. The M11/ISM folks are quite happy with their option. They did not have to raise the bed (which you must do with the bigger Series 60 and other larger four strokes).
Any of the four stroke conversions really need a gear ratio change to take advantage of the power/economy lower operating engine speed. This is best done with an overdrive transmission. There is a 3.36 rear end option, but that does not really get the engine in the best operating speed range for the speeds you want to drive.
Just some thoughts
Jim
Don't forget to put in that 6 speed allison with the double overdrive. Jerry
My stack of cash is not so high, So I will agree with Jjrbus, as It is the 6V92T for me. I will watch as others pass me as I do 70, all the while guarding (watching) the temperature guage....
I need to install the vents in the rear engine compartment doors as well.
Good Luck,
Gary
Thanks alot..Ive gotten alot of good feed back and alot to think about..My bus is a 85 Eagle and shes in Excellent condition..Not a speck of rust anywhere if you can believe that..She was in Arizona to Tx all her life til I bought her and brought her to florida..I dont want to get rid of her because the ride in my personal opinion is superior to other make and models..On the other hand 30-50K is alot of money to dish out for a refit..I just need to decide which way to go...Again thanks alot folk
Chris
I upgraded from a 6V92 to an 8V92 in my 80 Eagle and I was very happy with it.
With the Allison 740 automatic I could keep the speedometer pegged and I towed a 5,000 pound toad and the coach was over 40,000 pounds. I put about 150,000 miles on it and never regretted the upgrade. Probably easier than most other replacements and that was before the electronic engines. I always got over 6mpg regardless of where I was or how hard I pushed it on my many cross country trips.
Richard
Gary, is that 5C is a Saudi model? If so it came with oversized radiators. If they are in good condition you should not have any problems!
why spend the money if you can do 75mph? Seems like if you have that kind of scratch to drop....just go order yourrself one of the new Eagles.
musicman the 8v92 upgrade is by far the most simple on the model 10 the frame rails are already drilled for the 8v92 you don't have to buy new motor mounts the front and rear are the same on both engines it just move to the rear about 9ins you could change to a 3.36 and get you 10 more mph and a little more fuel mileage i just can not see spending 40,000 on a upgrade that you will never recoup in years the 2 strokes have been around for 60 years and are in everthing but a airplane a 3.36 gear change costs about 2500.00 and a new radiator and fan are about 2500.00 that was about 3 years ago
Jjrbus,
Good pickup, This is a Saudi with oversized radiators, which the PO overheated running to Denver in the summer. The total engine rebuild included rodding out the radiators. I have been good for 2 years and 22K miles. I have side air scoops for the radiator intakes. I saw Fred Hobe's rear louvers installation for the rear engine doors and always thought they would assist greatly. If I get really motivated I should install a second temp sensor in the other head.
Take care
Gary
Well it looks like a 8v92 or cummins ISM is what Im going to be shopping for now..And to answer Tekebirds question..The reason I wont go buy a new eagle is this one has alot of fond memories of my mother who passed away in Jan 06 of bone cancer..She traveled with me in the coach for about 2 years til she got so sick she needed to be near a Dr all the time..So its more of personal reason than it is money...Im far from rich but I spend 300+ days on the road and want to be comfortable and this coach is home away from home
I haven't installed my new 8V92TA from Jasper Engines yet but later this summer it will go in! But I can tell you after purchasing a 8V92 for a core engine so far this engine change will be around 25K, you can purchase a core some where around 1,500 to 3,500 dollars. A good place to start might be Sam Caylor for information and parts: Caylor Supply - Used MCI Bus Parts
4712 Rock Creek Rd., Rantoul, KS 66079
785-878-3405 Fax 785-878-3427
I know it says MCI but the engines are basically all the same and he's "honest". My orginal engine was a DD 8V71N. Unless your a skilled mechanic, I would't attempt building one, but again its your bus do it your way! I'm sure there are many suggestions on this and you came to the right place, Guys like Tom C, seem to know their stuff too!............Good luck!
Pat
http://prevostlemirage.blogspot.com/
If I get really motivated I should install a second temp sensor in the other head.
Gary, we did this and know several others who have added a second temp gauge. If you do this you may find that your right cylinder head runs about 5 degrees hotter than the right. I have no idea why, but almost everyone I know who has dual temp gauges have noticed this also. Jack
You might just want to leave earlier! ;D
Leaving early isnt any fun..Plus I want them to suck Eagle feathers for once
Passing the boss is not usually a good idea. If you have a mechanical 6V92, lets blow it up before we change it out. More injector, more turbo,(35 lbs boost), bigger air box, improved exhaust flow, (resonator only). It should live for quite while at 2450 RPM if you bearing it if its over 150,000 miles. Most hills you won't be on long enough to hurt it so just watch the 5 mile pulls. DDEC 2 has a 450 HP rating thats my next move, but no improvement over 2110 RPM plus 150 droop that I can find. (80 MPH top speed). If you have a mechanical engine now, I would stay mechanical. If you stay mechanical I would use a 10 speed double overdrive tranny and save some length, it may also offer the most top speed. 8th is 1 to 1, 9th is overdrive and 10th is for going home. Cummins Big Cam engines are mechanical as well as inexpensive to buy and operate. Pittsburg Diesel will build or furnish parts for you to build power that will live to around 800 HP with that engine. Pittsburgdiesel.net. With the 10 speed double overdrive and 2350 RPM you should be close to warp drive! A 3408 Cat would pass the lady also and make a nice fit.......
Hello musicman.
You want an automatic if you want to duel with the Prevost entertainer.
The open road is only one place, as good as they are, the automated manual gear boxes will leave you embarressed around town, and your goal is to show 'em tail feathers all the time, everytime!
The automated gear boxes are no quicker to shift than a tractor trailer, they are still waiting for the revs to drop for the next gear while the auto is through the next intersection. Good for fuel economy, absolutely no good for the performance oriented.
The ISM/auto combo in a trash truck seems the most readily available take out. Take the whole truck, and when the project is over, sell it again to recoup some costs. Do the research and be absolutely sure you will be able to get the computer hopped up. Despite the talk, Detroit won't hop up anything that didn't leave the factory hopped up, Cummins can't be any different. The fact it is going into a pre-emmisions application might help....?
Find the commercial part-out dealers that do this gig, near to where they have the right trash trucks, and tell 'em what you need, and give them some time, they'll stumble on what you need eventually.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Chris -
Sounds like you're suffering from TAHISMP! (Tim Allen Home Improvement Syndrome - "More Power!") ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Personally, I prefer Aesop's Fable of The Tortoise and The Hare: http://www.storyarts.org/library/aesops/stories/tortoise.html
;)
Speaking of the Tortoise & the Hare, We were traveling on I-75 in Georgia, when I happened to look in my mirror and see a bus coming up beside us. It was a friend who went on by and was out of sight very quickly. We continued along at our speed of about 60-65. Several hours later we pulled into the campground, to see him on the road right in front of us.
When I was still working, we found that running lights & sirens on the rescue only made a slight difference in our transport times. Usually not enough when you considered the increased chance of being involved in an accident and the much rougher ride for both the patient and myself.
If you are on a tight time schedule, I guess it would be differnet, buy now that we are retired, we take time to "stop and smell the roses". Jack
Back in my hot rodding days, I soon found out that you aren't faster for long. Someone else will always have more money. :(
A better goal is to choose the speed you desire to travel & the fuel useage you desire. With the miles you're putting on that bus & who you're competing against, you'd get tons of fun out of rubbing in the lower operating cost. ;D
just a thought. . . .
I have an 8-92 and 10 spd OD. I have a theoretical top end of 90+. Its theoretical because I don't want to go there, not because I couldn't get there. And I get 6 MPG (Canuck gallon) at 70. 9 MPG at 55. You gotta pay if you want to play.
NJT for 35lbs boost, what turbo do you recommend for 6v92 DDEC2?
homermanday i would be careful with the boost on a 2 stroke DD have a spec on how many pounds of air you can have in the air box for the injectors you have in your engine.i would check it out before i would try to up the boost hate to see you blow an engine
Homer, My 6V92 DDEC 2 is a factory turbo that came on the engine. DD specs this turbo at 25 lb. I have reworked several things on this engine and am very happy with the power I have. (I can run all over the loaded trucks). I currently am using the DD flash for a 350 HP coach @ 2260 RPM. I am more familiar with Cummins engines than DD. Older Cummins Big Cam engines had 300 hp @20 lbs boost, 25 lbs@ 350 hp and 400 hp @ 30 lbs boost. Each engine had a different turbo. Musicman wants to go and he can build alot of power with his 6V92 and still be safe. If I remember right someone around Bakersfield is running huge, maybe 125 injectors. (Initals DF maybe). DD has offered a twin turbo setup for the 92 for a long time. Anyone know the boost on that baby??? I don't see why you can't pull with the 4 stroke if you can get the top speed. I think one would want to check the main bearings every 100,000 to be safe. A piece of heavy equiptment like this that will run 130 mph can only be turned loose on the open road so I don't see a huge difference in the trannys at highway speeds.(just fuel and heat). Find out when the Prevost computer shuts off the top speed and there is your starting point. If the Prevost shuts off at 100, think 120. Go fast, be happy! Boost power is free power. There is a Cummins Dealer in Pittsburg that sells mapwidth high altitude turbos that push around 40lbs. Someone must have one for a DD application. I have heard if properly set up a 2 stroke can put out up to 1 HP per CI and live, so stay under 550 hp.
Quote from: JackConrad on May 28, 2007, 04:38:27 PM
If I get really motivated I should install a second temp sensor in the other head.
Gary, we did this and know several others who have added a second temp gauge. If you do this you may find that your right cylinder head runs about 5 degrees hotter than the right. I have no idea why, but almost everyone I know who has dual temp gauges have noticed this also. Jack
Could it be because the fan and radiator are on the LEFT side? In other words, the left side is closer to the "wind"?
The MCI's have a double squirrel cage blower on top, air drawing in from L/S & R/S rad's. I know that is my set up. I believe so for Jack's as well.
http://busesandmore.com/images/1988-MCI-102C3/Blower-Compt.jpg (http://busesandmore.com/images/1988-MCI-102C3/Blower-Compt.jpg)
When I started reading this thread I thought, like wow, dallas is back! Only then did I notice that this was a blast from the past. Oh well.
Like others, I was not sure what was going on here. Then I noticed this was a 2007 thread. It was fun reading through it again.
Musicman has not been active since 8/2007. Doubt that he is even lurking here anymore. Would be fun to know what he did with his Eagle.
Jim
Our new friend XE1UFO seems to have a penchant for digging up multi-year old threads and replying to them. I find it irritating, personally. I read back through the archives when I joined, too, but chose not to offer replies to old threads.
Brian
Don't know if anyony has thought about this but your Eagle has a drop box. It has a max hp rating. I just completely rebuilt mine. The three gears are no longer produced and the remaining new ones available are approching gold pricing!! LOL. I would sorta watch the hp I put on the box. I am looking at upgrading my Eagle from the 8-71 to the Cummins ISM with an overdrive transmission. It is a 425 hp engine, can't remember the tourqe. I think in the 1200-1400 range. The 8-71 in stock bus dress was 285 hp. and I think about 800-900 lbs. The new ford and Dodge pickups have more than that!!
I'm with Brian. THIS IS AN OLD POST FROM THE ARCHIVES! 2
2007 vintage
The original poster does not read the boards anymore.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I know it is a old post this for Eric, someone is blowing smoke about the drop box and the hp rating those are rated 2850 input torque I know Eagle owners that have 625 hp Cat,Cummins and Detroit engines in front of the drop box only draw back to one is the gearing for the differential and some have worked around that by cutting new gears,FWIW my 8v92 had 1580 lbs of torque going into it never a problem for me.
good luck
Quote from: bevans6 on August 17, 2010, 06:22:24 AM
Our new friend XE1UFO seems to have a penchant for digging up multi-year old threads and replying to them. I find it irritating, personally.
Brian
So sorry, Brian. I have no intention of irritating anybody. I am just trying to learn all I can.
Be blessed and enjoy life.
Dr. Steve, central old Mexico
Well, something that I think no one would ever object to is if you found a post or thread in the archives and linked to it with a fresh question. Or even replied to it saying something like "Sorry for dragging this old thread out again, but I had these questions about what was discussed in it." if you didn't know how to link.
I spent a fair bit of time crafting a considered reply to one of your resurrected posts and frankly felt a bit of a chump for doing so, when I realized that the OP had the problem three or four year earlier and had no doubt figured it out by now. Waste of my time.
On the other hand people seem to want to continue to discuss installing big engines in their bus, that may be a universal topic!
Brian
It IS an old post. When I saw "Driving Miss Lazy" on here I thought maybe Richard came back to life.
Did the original poster every get the "big dog" engine?
David
Even though it is an old thread I am learnin (as we say down south) a lot. I was worried about putting to much hp and tourqe on the drop box. I hear some say no problem and then some say I wouldn't do that. I was talking to Byron Pigg at Santee this year about that very issue. He has a 500hp 60 in his 15. He said he had no problems in 1ook miles. He left there and lost the whole read end!! I hope I didn't jinx him!! I know the box is pretty heavy duty, cause I wreastled the beast out and and back unfer there!!
Eric, Bryon lost the ring gear and pinion nothing happen to the drop box Jim stills has the drop box behind his 60 s so does Ben they don't give problems just a little tlc from time to time.
good luck
If you're worried about the drop box, always run an electronically controlled Allison automatic, and it will live the longest. Running a manual transmission-no matter how good of a shifter you are, you're going to grind gears and jolt the bus-one of the worst things you can do to the driveline! Good Luck, TomC