Ok....... All the threads I have read lately relating to fridge's and batteries, etc. have me considering going a different route.
Since I bought a 4024 Xantrex,(still in the box) and understand that it combined with good batteries and a decent generator I could probably run an all electric coach, I want to look into that.
I had my Dometic fridge upgraded but it doesn't vent to the outside- the PO never did it. And I understand they are "not all that" in the cooling dept. anyway, so I would like to use a home style fridge.
I also bought a new 3 burner cooktop, but have since looked into induction cooking and would rather go that route. That just seems waaaaay better.
The only thing left is the hot water heater. It's propane. But I'm sure I could come up with something adequete there. Plus, I would like to eventually run a Proheat or Webasto anyway.
Sooooooooo, what do ya think? Bail on the propane now and cut my losses or stay with it? I guess my thinking is that the Xantrex is the thing that is swaying me this way. If it really is something that will make going all electric feasable and maybe somewhat easy, I think I would like to do it.
I have been trying to collect the things I want, and get everything sorted out and then do everything at once, but it looks like I may have been collecting the wrong stuff. :-\
Oh well, wha'cha think?
Chaz
Not real up on All electric, but one Bus Dude related about running his coach 4 days on the system without useing the Gen. Didnt say How long it takes to Recharge all that battery power ?
Propain is kinda nasty, I mean it gets things Greasy, ya know ???
I just like Useing Other peoples power, like at KOA. But if you want to be Way out in the boonies, then ???
I personaly dont feel safe Way out in the boonies. To many Nut balls running around and I Dont like Guns. Had enough of thos in Nam. ;D
Im a Peacenik now.. Used to be a Long haird, dirty Hippy, Pot smokin Peace Kreep.. But i gave up the Pot ;D
oh, and Most of my Hair, fell out... ::)
:P :P
Paul...
I have all electric, solar panels, 24 volt frig, anything else I can get in 24 volts I use. I'm very happy and can boondock for a long time with it.
13k wrico genset - 3 years old and only 25 hours on it
4024 inverter
600 amp hours of bats at 24 volts
600 watts of solar power - great stuff!!!
16 cu ft Sunfrost, 24 v refrigerator
Advantium Microwave, 110 v
I have a 2 burner 110 cooktip, just bought an induction unit to play with, so far its the only way to go.
3 15k btu rooftop airs
home theater system, 1 tv, soon to be two
I leave the refrigerator / freezer on all the time when its parked, I am not plugged in, solar does the rest. I'm never down more than 10% on the house batteries, and always topped off by 10 or 11 am.
Hey Jim,
That's awesome! That's what I want to know!!! What are the best way to do it, better appliances to use, things to be concerned with, etc.
It just seems like it is a doable deal. Especially, if I'm not mistaken, with a 4024 to manage everything.
I don't know that I will go solar, at least for awhile, but it's something I am considering. Funds make the priorities.
Thanx!!!!!!!!!
Chaz
Jim, do you think a 24 volt refrigerator is more efficient than a 120 volt unit running thru an inverter? What is the relative cost difference between the 24 volt unit and the 120 volt unit for comparible sizes?
Richard
Quote from: H3Jim on May 17, 2007, 11:49:03 AM
I have all electric, solar panels, 24 volt frig, anything else I can get in 24 volts I use. I'm very happy and can boondock for a long time with it.
13k wrico genset - 3 years old and only 25 hours on it
4024 inverter
600 amp hours of bats at 24 volts
600 watts of solar power - great stuff!!!
16 cu ft Sunfrost, 24 v refrigerator
Advantium Microwave, 110 v
I have a 2 burner 110 cooktip, just bought an induction unit to play with, so far its the only way to go.
3 15k btu rooftop airs
home theater system, 1 tv, soon to be two
I leave the refrigerator / freezer on all the time when its parked, I am not plugged in, solar does the rest. I'm never down more than 10% on the house batteries, and always topped off by 10 or 11 am.
Yes, the 24 v refrigerator is significantly more efficient than a 110 going thru an inverter. In addition, this unit has two compressors, one for the refrig, one for the freezer. What this means is that there is no air flow between the refrig and freezer. This translates into much less (if any ) freezer burn, and veggies etc keep much better in the refrig as it maintains higher humidity.
Now the bad news, I paid $2700 for the refrig, many times what a home depot job costs.
I have a friend who got a side by side refirgerator with bad compressor, and is putting some of those 24 volt Danfoss compressors in it to acheive the same thing. (he's currentl running teh danfoss compressors in an ice chest which is very efficient since its small.
The other thing about he Sunfrost unit is that it has about 4" of insulation in it, something you can do with any refrigerator by adding several inches to the outside.
I'm not sure what all the dollar tradeoff's are, such as needing less battery or solar due to greater efficiency, or cost per usage (since I don't live in it and my $ per usage is probably pretty high). Or spending the $ on just running the genset or other tradeoffs. I just wanted it since I boondock a lot. Probably not really cost efficient, but its cool.
Not all refrigerators can be insulated on the outside! Many of the new ones use the walls as the heat exchanger. When planning refrigerator space this must be kept in mind. There is a big difference in price and size between an RV type fridge and a house type. I spent the difference on an inverter. I like to cook with gas, I am going to carry propane for the grill, so why not use it for the cooktop. My RV type water heater is LP, it also can use electric, best of both worlds. I carry 2 30lb LP tanks and they last forever. Unless I use the RV type funace.
Doing another converson for fulltiming I would go with a Wabosto type heater with radiant floor heat.
To better answer your question you need to assess what type of "camping" you are planning. I went all electric because I was not planning on being away from a power pole for long, and I use my genset to run my A/C's anyway, so it runs everything I need on the road. I have a small inverter (500W) for some lights for the 'tween times. My apartment size fridge was like 269 bucks and gets cold as heck. I do not have a house battery bank.
The more you are away from the pole, or not willing to use the genny, they more complicated power becomes, and the more costly. Big battery set, big inverter, three state charges, solar, etc all add up to big big bucks.
have two all electric coaches in my family.....key is to but the proper compnents. and to build the system right.
my folks will go on a two week trip and never run the genset.
Tekebird,
So what appliances and such would you reccomend? I don't think I can afford Jim's fridge. :o :)
Hey CHAZ!!!
You're single right? Since it's just you on the road, take a look at this:
http://www.igloo-store.com/product_detail.asp?T1=IGL+COOL+CHILL+40+BL&HDR=thermotravel
You could buy a couple of them and have plenty of room. (The ad says each holds 52 cans ::))
I have thought about doing this on my next coach.
any RV/Marine duDuel electric model.
I have the one I am taking out of the 4104 providing it fits out the side window...but it is in PA.
Hey Brojcol,
HA!! That is cool, but I think I would like a conventional fridge. :) BUT!!!! As a back up for NASCAR trips and such, that might not be a bad idea. Ay least something to think about.
But for now, I just think it's cool to go to a fridge and open it up to get something while riding down the road. Just something neat about that, ya know?!
I like my red wine at room temp, but my margurita's frozen,
Chaz
Hi Chaz,
I think Cris 85 RTS gave you the best advise as to whether an all electric coach will be best for you. Determine how you want to use your bus before making the decision to abandon the LP appliances you already have. It isn't just the initial cost of your components that determine the final decision of what is best for you. If you plan on boondocking, the electricity you take from your batteries has to be replaced from some source. If that source is a power pole after a short boondock it will be relatively cheap to replace, however if you have to use your generator it will be very expensive. With LP appliances your boondocking cost will be moderate unless you need A/C. If you need heat with an all electric coach you will be running your generator, with an LP furnace, or diesel heat, you will not, unless you boondock for days at a time. The same for water heating. I do think that the choice you made for your inverter is the best whether you go all electric or not. we all think that the way We all think that the way we have done our coach is the best way possible, but your or my way is not necessarly the best way for someone else's lifestyle. Chaz, please consider all the options before making your decision.
Thanks, Sam 4106
Chaz, while I was busy enclosing my windows and replacing some siding etc. I read a post on one of the boards by a couple of fulltimers, that they picked a destination and rented a trailer lot for a month.
From there they used the toad to see everything they wanted to, then moved on to the next destination and repeated the process.
I though to myself "that makes sense". Only changing the procedure if I wanted to camp on a beach somewhere.
I'll rent a spot and see Yosemite by day, camping there and trying to get a bear out of the back of my toad at 3AM is not my style.
You just need to make up your mind what kind of travelling you're going to do.
I like the induction hot plates/rangetops also. And a combination convection oven microwave.
Ed
Chaz- now that you have the 4kw true sine inverter, I think I'd just go with an efficient 120vac home type reefer. I used a 6.3 cu ft Norcold with a 100# Norcold chest freezer that both are compressor type that work on 12v and automatically switch to 120vac when it is present, since the true sine wave inverter was not made yet (1994).
Jim's set up is great-except that it is very expensive up front. Each of the solar panels are several hundred dollars each, alot of extra weight and cost with the big battery bank, Sunfrost as told is very expensive, even the cook tops are more expensive. But- it works well for Jim and I also think it is a good setup-once you get past the initial cost.
I almost went all electric, until I priced out a 3 burner Princess stove at almost $2000! I broke down and used propane for my stove and my 35,000btu furnace. The chassis mount 100# propane tank is directly below the stove and furnace, so the gas lines are very short. I also have an electric solenoid switched from inside to shut off the flow when not in use.
I plainly didn't have the room for more than 2 or 3 8D deep cycles. As the gal I bought the inverter from said, if you have a good Diesel generator, just run it more frequently. Make the gen very quiet, and it will serve you well. You can buy alot of Diesel fuel on the difference in cost between a Sunfrost and a home style reefer; alot of fuel for the cost of the solar panels; alot of fuel for the cost of the extra batteries and the extra fuel to haul an extra ton around. Just my opinion, this subject is always way open to discussion. It is the system the works well and works for you that you are pleased with that is important. Good Luck, TomC
Chaz,
Ahh!, the decisions we must make!!!
I had a lot of mixed thoughts on what I wanted to do, mostly based on my previous Class C experiences.
But, what really helped was dry camping at a few rally's.
I was already committed to a battery bank and inverter, so the test was really would it be enough.
I was able to get almost two days with an electric apt size refrigerator and 4 persons usage of the lights, TV etc...
Then came the generator to recharge.
It really is about how you use it.
With a family we tend to boon dock at the most overnight for two days max, while heading somewhere for 90% of our travels.
I am going all electric based on this usage.
We also do 90% of our cooking outside(grill, smoker in the bays), though I do have a convection microwave and two burners inside.
Hmm!, cooking outside, I am going to fire up the smoker and put on a Boston Butt right now... :P
Cliff
Quote from: FloridaCliff on May 18, 2007, 04:17:19 AM
Chaz,
Ahh!, the decisions we must make!!!
I had a lot of mixed thoughts on what I wanted to do, mostly based on my previous Class C experiences.
But, what really helped was dry camping at a few rally's.
I was already committed to a battery bank and inverter, so the test was really would it be enough.
I was able to get almost two days with an electric apt size refrigerator and 4 persons usage of the lights, TV etc...
Then came the generator to recharge.
It really is about how you use it.
With a family we tend to boon dock at the most overnight for two days max, while heading somewhere for 90% of our travels.
I am going all electric based on this usage.
We also do 90% of our cooking outside(grill, smoker in the bays), though I do have a convection microwave and two burners inside.
Hmm!, cooking outside, I am going to fire up the smoker and put on a Boston Butt right now... :P
Cliff
Cliff,
Your making me hungry.......and it's still the morning!
Nick-
Tom makes some good points about the cost of it all. The solar panels however are really vey light weight. I wuold guess that the entire 600 watts I bought, (4 150 watt panels) weighs no more than 25 lbs or so. they are 31" x 61" and about 3/16 inch thick, mounted in an aluminum frame 2" wide (or is that tall).
They too are somewhat spendy, but you pay now for all the power they will provide for the next 30 years. I spent $4.50 a watt, 600 watts, plus $200 for a great solar controller with a shunt so I can manage all the rest of the power as well. Total amp hours in, total amp hours out etc. I have to say, there is nothting like that clean, quiet power, day in, day out. Living in Seattle or an area with lots of rain and haze would lower the efficiency, but of all the $ I have spent, I feel that the solar is some of the best bang for the buck. My only regret is that I did not do it sooner.
Jim,
Are you saying that the solar was about 2900.00??
Sun is fun,
Chaz
I think I spent a little more than that, but not much.
Jim:
Does the Sunfrost freezer keep ice cream hard? My Dometic will freeze most foods but will only go down to 7-10F. Makes very soft ice cream.
Yes, in fact I put it in the microwave before I eat it to soften it up a bit. 1/2 pint for 30 seconds. Still firm, but much easier to get at it.
Its also temperature adjustable. I haven't played much with it, its always been cold enough. It has more range so I could set it lower. It would use more electricity, so I haven't bothered. I've still got ice in there I bought in a bag last halloween. No bad taste, no melting.
Deb / Dav - are you guys full timing now? How are you doing?
Jim,
We sold the house Aug. 2006. Moved into the Discovery. Found that 30A in Houston in summer is not enough. Bought a 5th wheel and BIG truck. Am selling the Discovery.
Sold my business Nov. 2006. Buyer took all of my employees, customers and me! He gave me a sales position for 12-24 months for transition. Without employee problems, paperwork, etc. I am top sales and enjoying 'daily grind'. No worrys, no cares, just a nice weekly check - - and all the time off I want.
Bus is in the final stage of structural changes. Will reveal later. Took longer than expected. Hope to have it back here in 4-5 months. Then 1 year to build . Have many parts and finish ideas. Just need my bus!
David
Sounds like you have done some smart things. Nice to hear you're doing so well. I am very much looking forward to hearing about and seeing pics of your bus. I remember you are doing slideouts, did you do a roof raise too?
Just five years ago I would have said all electric was the easy way to go....I even built one...but now with southern winter time (snow bird)use rv parks disapearing all over the south , and the corp of engineers riding itself of most of its parks ,,I have rethought the use and added an inverter and battery pack... just to make it possible to live in our bus on the road..so many of the state parks offer dry camping...If your planning on fulltiming you might better plan ahead...ggo4
I have the inverter and amfiguring out the batteries I want, I was just more curious about using propane or not.
Thanx!
Chaz
Chaz, FWIW.....
I always figured the more options the better.
What I have done.
Refrig Propane/DC/AC
Hot Water Propane/AC (At some point I will add the engine to the loop)
Heating Propane/AC Diff Appliances / Engine
Cooking Propane/AC Diff appliances
Electricity AC propane(gen)/shore/inverter w/ batteries or engine alt.
Needless to say I have a good size Propane tank plus I am set up to use the small tanks in an Emergency.
It seems that no matter what I set up there will be a situation where my options don't cover everything
It is basically set up like my old Class C and worked for me for 17 years. (Just a little bigger and better everything)
I guess that's just life
Skip
Skip,
I also like diversity. And gravitate towards it in most anything I do, but I guess in this circumstance, the diversity is how to get the electricity to power everything.
Obviously, electricity is the number one power source so it is a must. And there are several different ways to generate it so my thoughts are to concentrate on the different ways to get, make, convert and store it as opposed to adding other energy sources. It also sounds like a home fridge works better too. But I guess that could be up for debate. ;)
I have, what I understand is, a good inverter (4024) to help with managing everything, and from what I understand, that is the main thing to having an all electric coach. I have a generator that is gas, but want to get a diesel just to keep the fuel thing simple also. And I am contemplating adding another alternator to the engine to help keep the house batteries topped off. The solar panels interest me also, but they seem to be a bit pricey for me right now.
Soooooooo, it just kinda seems logical to me in many ways, but I am TOTALLY open to others opinions as to what works for them and what doesn't. I am new at this, so my thoughts are not always "real world", but I am trying.
Thanx for the input, and I hope to hear more pros and cons on this as I think it will help anyone who is putting together a coach or reworking one. It's best to have an overall plan to work from, from the "get-go".
Like a sponge,
Chaz
one more thought on the solar panels, you can start off with one panel and the controller, and just add panels over the years as your budget allows.
I probably don't need all 4 of the panels I have. One of my buddies gets by just fine with two panels, although I am totally electric and he is not.
I can see how even one can be helpful. But I would have to find a "sceamin deal" to purchase them. I have other priorities I NEED to get first. But a good deal is a good deal!! ;D
Chaz
If I ever get one i would do the inside all electric. I would like to put an outdoor kitchen in a lower bay. That would be propane.
Not Sure that solar has improved that much in the last 5 years have watched dozens of people try covering the whole tops and sides of buses with never any ability to pay back cost.,, just another toy...
check fmca and any of the rv sites tons of articles by lots of people that have tryed...not like solar house...check how many sq.ft. of panel for usable,i.e. power appliances through inverter.. just not enough room on top of bus...and unable to aim and control tracking... never get payback for money involved and never enough power except to top off charged batteries do a little research....gg04
the way I look at it ... you can buy alot of diesel for what you get out of solar
Solar is quiet and prepaid, after the initial pain, its like free power. I think for me the allure is that its totally quiet, and always there. (at least during the day).
You can save a lot of diesel by going solar.
You can use the solar if you are parked in a place when and where you can't start your generator. Last month I was at the Silver Strand, on the ocean in San Diego. They don't let you start your generator before 10am. I like to eat breakfast before then, but I was not concerned about the stove top, microwave, toaster, stereo etc using power because I was already making more than I was using. I never did need to start the generator.
If I was only worried about cost, I would not own a bus.
Chaz
A couple minor details to include as you are penciling in the numbers.
On my inverter (Xantrex) the pass through AC has a max load of 30 amps. With the generator going powering 2 Air conditioners, guitar, pa amps, fridge, etc I popped the breaker on the pass through. Took me a day to figure out what happened. So check your pass through amps in the user man.
On 30 amp shore (or possible gen depending) remember that when the inverter goes to charge the batteries there is an additional amp drain and can kick out the master breaker. If you are running 50 amp master probably not as much problem but then you still have the inverter pass through.
As others have said it is a balancing act.
Skip
Chaz we have had a total electric for over 10 years and i am trying to get away from the total electric because of our use we go to the mountains of Idaho in the summer and i have to run my generator a lot to keep up with the use i am going to look at a Amish built fridge that someone posted about i am replacing the cooktop with a 3 burner gaggenau my electric cooktop is 220 v and so i have 2 sw 2512 inverters stacked but when you cook, heat water,watch tv and a few other things the batteries are gone and i am tired of buying new batteries every 3 years and now the 255amp agm batteries are over 500.00 bucks each and i have 3 if a total electric fit your needs do it i just want to be able to use my bus without running the generators so much but i will keep my hot water heater because i don't want to cut a hole in the side i am sad about cutting a hole for the fridge in the roof also propane is cheaper than diesel
Skipn,
Chaz has an SW4024 which has a 60 amp pass through specification. I have an SW2512 which also has a 60 amp pass through spec. With the 60 amp pass through spec a 120 volt only buss can use the full 50 amps of a shore cord and 60 amps from a 7500 watt genset.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
luvrbus,
It seems that switching to a propane cooktop would off load enough battery drain that with use of the generator autostart built into your inverters your battery life should be more like 10 years. I would look hard at a modern energy star refrigerator with added insulation to avoid the hole in the roof required by a propane refer. I have a 6.5 cu ft. refrigerator that averages under 19 watts.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
and I think an induction cooktop would be more efficient than the one you are using now. I just bought a small one that's a little bigger than a hotplate to try it out. I like it a lot. holds heat to withing several degrees of where you set it, instant on or off heat like gas, much less wasted heat - more efficient and less heat going into the bus on a hot day.
Two downsides are
1. cost of the built in ones ( the 12" hot late one was $165 with a pan from Amazon)
2. Must use a pan that reacts to magnetism so aluminum pans don't work.
Others on this board have talked about them. The tradeoffs are worth it to me.
My system is all electric and I am happy with it. The differences are I have more battery capacity so I don't ever run them down more than 50%. I expect to get 7 or more years from mine. My refrigerator is more efficient. I suspect my other appliances are more efficient too. I have a hot water system that uses diesel to heat with. and I have solar to augment and which always tops the batteries off every day. I don't believe you can get a full charge on your batteries from a generator. The 2nd and 3rd stage of charging is always cut back when you use a generator to charge with.
And regarding the pass through on the inverter, with a 12k generator, remember you have another leg of 50 amp capacity that you can use, that does not pass through the inverter, but does require the generator to be running in order to access that power.
I have another bus nut friend that is all electric, and he is using 8 8D AGM's not three. Pricey to start with but his batteries last a long time. he has been full timing over 4 years, and they show no sign of being weakened. He expects to get close to 10 years from his.
If i had a 24v system i would go with the sun frost fridge but mine is 12v so i am going another way i just got a email back for 8d glass mats and they where over 600.00 each that would be 4800.00 plus shipping plus all the space and extra weight and i can make hot through the heating system i will see you at bus'n usa if you make it this year and look at your system if you don't mine
luvr - I can save you about $150 each right here - not toooo long ago I believe I saw them for about $370 - do some shopping - HTH
http://www.12-volts-batteries.com/Lifeline-Links.html
The sunfrost refrigerator will run on either 12 volt or 24 volt. While they do sell both models, (a 12 volt and a 24 volt) the only difference is the light bulb inside. The compressors automatically tell which voltage they are getting and adjust accordingly.
I've paid my $ for Bus'N USA this year. Be there friday.
Quote from: H3Jim on May 22, 2007, 07:04:44 PM
I have a hot water system that uses diesel to heat with and I have solar to augment and which always tops the batteries off every day. I don't believe you can get a full charge on your batteries from a generator. The 2nd and 3rd stage of charging is always cut back when you use a generator to charge with.
And regarding the pass through on the inverter, with a 12k generator, remember you have another leg of 50 amp capacity that you can use, that does not pass through the inverter, but does require the generator to be running in order to access that power.
The above are all painfully true. The generator can never adequately equalize a battery bank and can not desulfate either. Solar power can efficiently do both "fuel & grid free".
This will be the next phase of my "All Electric Coach"
The main thing is to minimize the power you require/ use. You do this by lifestyle changes. Simply buying the most efficient appliances you can find is not necessarily the answer.
When boondocking, you have to carry the power you will use & that takes space.
Some solar is a great thing for the trickle charging of batteries.
But planning your actions can have a much bigger impact.
Your menu should take into account where you are - power pole or boondocking.
Full showers (as opposed to sponge bath) while boondocking takes a toll on resources too.
Insulation & shade will also minimize need for A/C.
Solar panels is a great thing to have on any RV. They work great when the sun is high and bright. However in September say, parked in some big trees, in Northern US or Canada, they don't work worth a damn. You have to remember that.
Jim, i know they work both ways but the amp hours double when it runs on 12v the 2 people i know that run on 12v have problems with them i have 3 other friends that have mcis 24v and have no problems and i have had no luck with lifeline batteries so i am buying Concorde this time, kyle has a good point but if i can't have the comfort of home i don't need the bus
I speculate that they did not use heavy enough wire gauge to run from 12 volts. I used 10 gauge for a farily short run at 24 volts. There would be significant losses, heat build up and probably voltage drop that would be hard on the units.
Amen to having your bus like you like it. I look forward to meeting you at Bus'N USA.
Kyle, you are right about the solar not being very effective if you are up north under trees. Although I do travel up north, and love the beauty of the area, and especially trees, since I live in the southern part of the US, most of my time is spent here and I seem to be getting a big bang out my buck.
Hey Jim,
Would you have any pix you could post of your panels? I, for one, would kinda like to see what you are doing. I also like the idea of parking my bus next to the house and utilizing them around here also.
By the way, this has turned into a great thread!!!
Thanx guys!
Chaz
Errrr ...... LUVRBUS ...... Lifelines are made by Concorde ...... Maybe you would be interested in some 8D AGM's from Trojan for under $200 each? HTH
Quote from: luvrbus on May 23, 2007, 07:01:51 AM
if i can't have the comfort of home i don't need the bus
To each their own, that's what makes this forum so usefull.
If you've got all the comforts of home at home, why would you want to leave? ;D
I want as many comforts as I can get while traveling, that is why I suggested a total needs/ system approach. If you can reduce your needs, it is easier to satisfy them all & have an enjoyable time.
Solar has it's place, just as propane, diesel, agm batteries, trojan batteries, inverters etc.
Before deciding on the parts, choose a goal & desired method of attaining it. Then get the parts that fit your plan. That's where these open discussions have helped me plan the total system.
Bottom line - with what this hobby costs, you need to enjoy your time on it! ;D
Well said, Kyle, well said.