Thinkin about Bio Diesel.. for my Princess Fiona..
What do you Think about the stuff.. ?
Paul... ;D
Paul, personally I just want my coach to go from point A to point B and that is getting harder to do all the time. I think I'll just keep the big dog eating the pump stuff and stay out of the injector shop.
Think ??? ??? ??? ::) 8) :o :( >:( ;D :D ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ ;) :-* :) :'( :) ;D ;D ;D
Oh I did not know I was supposed to do that!!
Hey Paul
Glad to see someone else thinkin on line!
IMLW, Bio Diesel is better than the alternative.
There are lots of alternatives to petrol.
Some people are scared to take a chance, or change from the status quoe.
Much easier to conform. Do you dare stick your head out, Change, question, look for something different?
Do not be dissuaded. There are options.
You will most likely be attacked from both the left and right.
And good intentioned people that will "feel" (Oh my heart bleeds) that if you are rebelious enough to try something different you will suffer the Wrath of bad karma. (Stick to the tried and proven)
Oh yea some Body just did a study that (proved) "extrapolates" that if all of the petrol was converted to biofuels today there would be 200 more deaths in the world.
We have the power?????? (Follow the money)
Everybody has their own adjenda. Some just can not see who or what they are being influenced by.
What Do I think?,,,, Who Cares!
Glad you are thinkin.
Bill
Hi Paul,
I Smell French Fry's.....
Try this link to our bio/veggie pages
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3069.0
Nick-
Detroit officially approves of 5% or B5 usage. They have found alot of slugging of the engine with long time usage. Read about one guy that used a 2-71 to power his generator at his house on straight veggie oil. At about 2000 hours, it quit because of the massive carbon build up that wouldn't allow the valves to seat anymore. He took the head off and had to hammer and chisel the carbon off. But-of course you'll do it your way. Good Luck, TomC
Part of the reason for the coking of veg oil is the injectors cannot get a good spray out of the heavier oil but when heated to 165-180F it works well and carbon builups are reduced. The engine must be started and stopped on diesel and switched over when veg oil is heated. Jerry
Ask me this time next year.
Company that bought my 04 is paying me to have it converted for B100....and possibly SVO/WVO...although I am trying to talk them into using the SVO/WVO on the Genset for reliability issues.
From my research so far including talking to tech guys who sell the stuff......SVO//WVO has reliability issues, especially in cold temps.
SVO/WVO still requires diesel to purge the system and to run until the engine is up to temp.
All Vegi fuels Cloud at temps much higher than Dino Fuels.
As far as I am concerned, I am not impressed yet......sure it is good for the environment, but the technology is not there in the fuels or conversions yet. And when they guys selling the parts and the fuel are telling you that it will have reliability issues.......I say Run.
Other issues I have.....most of the guys selling this stuff are Idealogical Modern Day Hippes....that can't be troubled to call you back or email you back when you ask questions about thier products.
We Will See.
I am going to sugest and engine inspection at 1 year and that will tell the story.
all in all the conversion for Bio alone is going to be around 2k plus labor......add another 3k for SVO//WVO
Side Note,
Local PA School District Runs B5...and at 20 degrees they had non start issues.......imagine what the B100 would do......it starts to cloud at 60 degrees.
Also.....info from a Bio Diesel Conference, where a manufacture rep/distributor stated that only 20 % of the stuff being made could be treated for temps properly ( Bio Diesel that is).......and that any B fuel has a tank life of 60 days max. then it degrades exponentially.
:o
Oh... heh heh heh ...
Ummm... NEVER MIND.. ;D
OK, i see it needs a bit of Refineing to get it to a Real useable state..
Thanks a Heqap guys..
Even if you sound like "Nattering Naybobs of Negativity "
;D :D ;D :D ;D :D :-*
Quote from: superpickle on May 01, 2007, 09:07:29 AM
Even if you sound like "Nattering Naybobs of Negativity "
I know it sometimes sounds like that, especially to those who are new to the forum. But in most cases (not all), negativity here is the result of either 1st or 2nd hand knowledge of something that either does not work, has a significant risk of failure or causes extensive and/or expensive problems. Most of the people here are so afflicted with this marvelous madness known as bus nut syndrome that they try to stear others away from pitfalls that might hinder their enjoyment of their bus or even cause them to give it up.
Even in my relatively short time here, I have seen people in the forum loose the dream and sell their bus or nearly give it up. Usually because they became frustrated when their plan failed, they ran out of money and/or time, they just didn't take time to enjoy their bus while doing the conversion or any combination.
One of the wonderful aspects of being a bus nut is the opportunity to
Do It Your Way. And most people here are firm believers in that. But some ways have led others to failure before and that is often when you will see senior forum members turn negative. On its own that shouldn't stop someone from trying it, but it should serve as a caution flag invoking more consideration before proceeding.
As this all relates to WVO, I highly respect those who have or are trying to find ways to do it and hope they succeed, both for their sake and the advancement of the technology for everyone. I see them as pioneers. But the average person just trying to enjoy their bus should be well aware of the potential problems before becoming a pioneer in the field.
OK, climbing down off my soapbox.
Maybe more than you ever wanted to know here on this link from the Help board:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3069.0
Richard
If done properly, it will probably run fine. The real issue then becomes IF you WILL consistently do it properly.
You have to do your homework to find out what method fits your lifestyle/ useage.
Then total up the costs (out of pocket & labor) & decide the best method for you.
Like Homegrowndiesel said think for yourself, don't just blindly follow the masses. After looking into it, it currently isn't the way for me, but that may change later. . . .
I feel most of the negativity is to elicit more details from those who endorse the alternatives without any real data to back up their claims. Use of the wrong snakeoil can ruin a good bank account.
Paul, we think the stuff is great!! We run bio in all our diesels. (we run a dairy farm so we have many of them!) If you want more info email me off board! There are a few people on here that always feel like shooting me down when I talk about the stuff!! (People who have never run the stuff and really dont know anything more then what they have read!)
Blake
My Bus, 2 trucks and 2 kubota powered generators make people hungry.. Occasionally but not all the time. 70/30 to 90/10
and 100% on the Isuzu when really warm outside. Only had a filter clog once in a year plus. Still working on exactly
what works best for me with a low/no budget.
The funny part is to look in your mirror and see people following you closely trying to figure out
who is cooking fries 50 miles from nowhere...At 70 mph... ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D :D :D
No it's not for everyone and a certain amount of restraint is required. The most important part is to have
lots of filter spares when using anything other than pump diesel even part time.
Detroits don't heat the fuel enough and need a lot of help.( no dwell time in contact with the engine!)
Start on Diesel and run from preheated veggie (160 deg) or better. Shut down back on diesel after system
is fully purged. Most Buses with 2-strokes return a lot of hot fuel to the tank, It will heat the fuel in the tank
quite well after several hours of driving, You only need to get the fuel thinned down to burn and heat is one
way to get there.
Keep in mind that you Will find many people doing different systems, some say NO NO while others say YES YES.
The ONLY right answer is "What works for you!"
I don't like Bio-Diesel because its processed with caustic substances. Why would you want to run refined ACIDS in your engine?
I won't run pump Bio-D unless I am desperate
Kubotas and Some engines with bosch style injection pumps allow some inline heat to soak into the fuel which helps, But you gotta get'em started first.
Just my temporary take from my own distorted view... I can go as far on 12 cents as I can on $3.00 a gallon..
:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
I think Bio fuels are great, (especially SVO straight vegetable oil) ...when done right.
Tekebird's take on things can be the case sometimes. There are allot of hacks out there with no track record. His quote about, "Idealogical Modern Day Hippes....that can't be troubled to call you back or email you back when you ask questions about their products" unfortunately is the case allot of time.
In the interest of full disclosure, at this point I need to tell you all that I founded and own the one SVO company that has been around the longest, and has extensive experience with big rigs. ( we have one customer with a Mack truck with close to 500,000 miles on veggie oil.)
I also am a bus nut, and own a bus. I want to get this out here at the beginning of the discussion so that I can assure you all that I am not joining the discussion to advertise.
I love busses and am passionate about my work in the alternative fuels world and I love the fact that the 2 can come together.
I will give my web site, once, so that you can check out who I am and my background, but from here on out I will refrain from mentioning the business too much, to keep it on a technical discussion.
my company www.goldenfuelsystems.com is the exact opposite of what Tekebird described. ( I have short hair, believe in Jesus and the constitution, and think that capitalism is great!)
The interior on my MC 6 is about done, And I am going to start on the mechanical systems next week. (after the wife's horse fence gets done) I plan on having 500 gallon veggie oil capacity with on-board with on the fly gathering and filtering capabilities.
Superpickle, what engine do you have in Fiona?
Charles Anderson
I normaly do not engage in ongoing discussion concerning the use of veggie oil as a fuel replaceing dino diesel as It does require a working knowledge of diesel motors as well as fuel sytems in general. I have owned and maintained a small trucking fleet of 17-18 trucks over the road for forty plus years and have made my share of mistakes over that time, enough to say I consider myself knowledgeable enough to spot the fairy tales(BS) from the truth. Need for manageing cost per mile is the biggest most vaulable lesson a trucker can learn to stay in business. A coach bus is a major investment for most of us, I own outright two GM's, a 4104 and a 4106 as well as a Ford schoolie that owes me nothing. I never was 'rich enough' to take chances or gamble my assets foolishly. I fully advocate the use of alternitive fuels as a way to manage costs overall. What good is a motorhome if you cannot afford to go anywhere? WVO is a simple way to go/afford where I want, when I want, while retired. Like FORD, CHEV, Toyota, etc all have their way of desining an aoutomobile, many coversion companies have their way of powering a diesel on WVO, some are simple conversions and others use computer controls so you can flip one switch instead of learning what makes it work, both allow you to save money and get from A to Z. Both are a matter of personal choice.
I have been studying WVO conversions for about 5 years now and find there are many ways to 'just do it', there are some basic facts to learn, beyond that its "do it your way". Golden FUELS and Charles Anderson is a wonderful example of keep it simple and affordable, country homegrown efficiency doable by the average busnut. I trust Charles integrity, honesty and insight for my own conversions and have indeed visited his shop a few times and seen his MC-6. He has done a mini-seminar at past NJTbusnut gatherings in Sarcoxie, MO. Several busnuts use his systems and none report problems on our yahoo veggie group at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/wvobus/ I have no items to sell or interest in Golden Fuels.
Alternitive fuels is a growing experiment due to riseing diesel prices and general cost of liveing, its not for everyone and there is a risk for those that wont take the time to study it before jumping in with both feet first. Do your homework and follow the winners.
John Feld
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/wvobus/
Very Well said John and Charles.
We thank you for your participation in these discussions and hope that by sharing the knowledge that many can learn from your experiences and those from people that work through all the issues in their own fashion.
I don't have an agenda and like I have declared so many times, What works for me does not represent what will work for others.
My use of the SVO is limited to fuel backup operations and when I am too broke to buy pump diesel ( which is pretty much all the time lately!) at the current fuel costs I mix 50/50 so that my wallet thinks I am paying $1.50 a gallon. Well it makes me feel better anyway.
Thanks Guys, Enjoy....
Is there really enough WVO available to make a conversion practical? On a trip where I have to fuel three times, would I spend half my trip looking for restaurants to get WVO?
Around here, a lot of restaurants are locked into contracts with companies that either remove the WVO for free or even pay for it. As fuel prices continue to increase and more and more folks look to do WVO conversions, will there be enough supply to go around?
interestingly enough....I had the same question....of course you could always just stop at Costco and get SVO....and spend hours pouring it into your tank.
The company that bought my 04 wants to run B100 exclusively.....but between Luke's and St Louis where the interior will be reworked.....there are only two B100 location...both in Eastern PA......so somewhere along that trip it will get a blend or Dino....
Additioanlly between St Loius and CA there are none
QuoteAs fuel prices continue to increase and more and more folks look to do WVO conversions, will there be enough supply to go around?
Exactly why I quit promoting it. I'm ALL ABOUT doing what I can for the earth, but I want to keep as much of the veggie oil for me!!!!!!! :) Why try to convince others who don't want to do it? I just assume keep it for me if they aren't interested. They're loss. I'm cool with it.
QuoteOn a trip where I have to fuel three times, would I spend half my trip looking for restaurants to get WVO?
I hate to say it, but, DUH!!! It's a duel fuel setup as you HAVE to start out on Dino. So if I start out with a full tank of wvo, depending on how much fuel you need, you have cut your cost of the trip by that much!!! Then if you have the time and inclination to harvest some on the way, all the better.
Quoteand spend hours pouring it into your tank.
Do you really think that is all that big of a deal??? I usually have time to putz with various stuff at stops anyway. You can put it in your tank there or at your leisure.
Quotethere are only two B100 location...both in Eastern PA......so somewhere along that trip it will get a blend or Dino....
Did I mention "Duel Tanks"???
Oh, well, there I go again trying to help people. It's a personality flaw. Forget what I said above. My bad.
Caring too much again, :-\
Chaz
My aux tank is 100 gallons of pure SVO, It will last way longer than I can sit in the seat before I have to stop.
That's 550 miles for $12 of fuel. I went from Daytona to Charlotte NC on that alone, Bought cheaper pump diesel and came
home. If I figure on only ever using 100 of the 140 gallons in the main tank and add the 100 of SVO, I have a 1,100 mile
range before I have to fill up. So if all is well with the world and I have to pay retail @3.00 a gallon, I have cut my fuel costs
by at least a third for 2,200 miles. That's $300 ... Money for other stuff...
If I carry 200 gallons then it's 1/2 savings. Worry about topping off the svo tank when you get home. Or get lucky...:)
John,
Thanks for the kind words. I enjoyed the bus gathering a few years back, and if you have another one, let me know, i can actually show up in a Bus now!
Fuel availability is always one of the first things people ask about. The good news is that there is more good oil out there than you can imagine, and even though this is catching on, we haven't even put a dent in the supply. There are an estimated 4 billion gallons of waste oil produced annually that never even get recycled. Most of it ends up in land fill or the back 40.
There is a knack to finding the oil, but once you get into the groove it is easy.
A few examples. While my bus has been my project the last few years, I didn't want to miss out on the travel/camping experience so i bought a travel trailer and have spent at least 1 month a year( for the past 3 years) "on tour" with my family.
The first year we took off from Missouri, and went "out West" Put on about 5,500 miles, never bought diesel once. I have a 20 gallon auxiliary tank for diesel on my excursion and only used 10 gallons for start up and shut down fuel.
The next year we went out east, up the coast into Canada and made a big loop. About 6,500 miles. Then the next year we went to Florida and played/ worked around there for a month, only about 4,000 on that trip. now these are just the family trips, not counting the business trips. All in all Over the years I have been to every corner of the country Mexico and Canada, California to Florida, and never was there a situation where I couldn't find oil. Most of the time i would find oil within 15 minutes of starting to look, and then there would be more than I could haul off. The average oil score is 100 to 250 gallons per stop. I just got back from a trip to Kentucky 2 days ago, where i went to get a vehicle. First stop I scored 80 gallons, filled my 44 gallon main tank and put the rest in a barrel. (this was a gas station, ironically enough, that fried chickenstrips) Comming back I stooped at a Chinese buffet that had 250 gallons they said i could have. Filled the 44 gallon tank, filled a barrel, topped of the other barrel, and left well over 100 gallons of liquid gold sitting there. Both of these places were the first places i stoped when i decided it was time to gather.
I remember on our trip out east that we got permission from a Chinese place that had 2 bins absolute full, and they were begging us to take some. The service that they had to pay for had not come yet and they were overflowing. There was 600 gallons plus there, and one of the sadest days in my life, because i could only take about 60 gallons. Another time in Wyoming, a restaurant had about 500 gallons in a big 300 gallon tote, and a bunch of barrels, same story, collection service they pay for wasn't comming out and they were desperate to get the oil gone. Once you get out of the big cities, it is a common problem for the outlying towns, that not only do they have to pay for the service, they do not come out often enough and there is an overflow problem. I have even got free meals they were so happy.
It takes a bit to get the hang of it, but once you do, you spend very little extra time at this. I average about $400 an hour when I gather oil.
And like others have pointed out, you can always put petrol in if you need to.
Charles Anderson