In another thread I discussed weight distribution and the effect on vehicle handling and ride quality. I'd like to know what your thoughts are on the following.
I know that this coach will always be a very heavy and lethargic machine, compared to my little 5000lb pickup. My goal is to improve safety and handling and ride quality by removing and redistributing weight, moving weight forward of the rear axle, and as low as I can get it. Ideally, the lower the weight is and the more evenly distributed it is both front to back and left to right, the better it will handle and ride. I do understand that there is an issue of suspension and tire capacity, the rear being the stronger. That said, the front can handle a good bit of weight more that my gutted coach is putting on it.
As an example, a few hundred pounds wont matter unless they are in an area where it act like a lever, as does all the weight aft of the rear tires. 125lbs removed from the centerline of the engine removes 400lbs of weight from the rear tires. I must remove 400 lbs from just in front of the rear tires to have the same effect. I know it sounds wrong, but it's in the leverage and position of the weight. The vehicle weight will only change by 125lbs if I remove 125lbs, but the balance of the vehicle will change by 400lbs. The weight aft of the rear tires acts as a lever to not only push the rear tires down, but also to use the rears as a fulcrum for the lever to lift the front tires.
One more example. I have seen talk of moving the start batteries back to the engine compartment to remove that 3 mile point of failure known as the starter cables. Electrically, we agree it is a great idea. Less cable and less intrerconnect point makes for a more reliable system. But to do that also moves 160-ish lbs of Group 30's back behind the rear tires, countering what I want to do. The factory 8D's together weigh about 300-ish lbs, so it is possible that the effective weight of the move would be neutral. But in moving the batteries there, first you have removed 300lbs from about the middle and left side of the coach, and at best added only 160 lbs to way back there, to act on the front in the lever fashion I explained above. It will actually have a negative effect on handling.
This one change, if it were the only one, would go totally unnoticed. But it isn't the only change I'll be making. It's one of thousands, each one effecting the handling of the finished coach. I'm not going to worry about the location of a light fixture in relationship to vehicle balance, but anything ofer 100lbs will be looked at in the light of balance, as well as feasibility, ease of use and serviceability.
Gimme a minute to don the fire suit, then lets hear it.
Thanks
Keith
I understand your concept....... and my vector analyisis days are long gone from my brain for the most part.
Noew to your probelm.........moving the batteries to the engine comaprtment is generally something done on something other than a GM........the transverse engine layout and lack of floor or accesable "frame" does not lend itself to that.
More often that not I think this move is made to free up space more than saving any reliability issue....read RJ'S post in your other thread on reliability by design.
no for my silight recall of vectors. Keeping in mind.....that the engine is hanging from the roof and the bottom of the Firewall bulkhead. There are forces from everything aft of the drivers that I am sure can be measured at the windshiled frame due to the nature of a monocoque design
Now does this not put most forces down on the drive axle perhaps with a slight angle bias towards the rear of the bus....so a bit of Lever action? Or stating it differently.......if the wieght is actually 5 foot from the axle.......but the forces are transfered into the roof anf the firewall, the force is not actually at 5 foot but some fraction of 5 foot thatt is much closer to the axle......thus its lever effect is much less than the calculation you quoted.. True it is not 0.
Unlike 500 # hanging off the rear of a frame vehicle where all the force is down from the location of the weight?
Once again, Anything close to normal you might do will not be noticed in handling of the bus. There are guys running around with GM's towing 20,000# trailers with 2000# tongue weights, despite the structure not being dddesigned for that........and despite there being known failures from this sort of application and none of them note any gross loss or change of handling.
Again it's not a race car.........
Example: An empty City bus (GM), a group of weight wather dropouts get on........they all choose to sit at the back of the bus......so each of them weighs, 280# and there are 10 of them, 2800# siting rear of the drive axle........does the driver stop and say please move forward so I can keep a proper CG......
Alternate: that same 2800# of people choose to sit on the curb side..........does the bus lean that direction.....or turn that way better......NOpe. at least not at any noticable ammount.
Maybe me thinks you should have got a used crown schoolbus......then your engine and drivetrain weight would be between the axles and you would not have to fret over it.
WOW, Are you serious?????
This question from the man who knows how to solve the structural issues involved in stretching a 35' bus to 45'?????
Gee Whiz
Keith,
where did you get you Mechanical Eng Degree?
When?
Where did you get your Elec Eng Degree?
When?
Where did you get your Master Automotive Mechanic Cert?
When?
The whole statement that you have accident reports with data from Fishbowl Accidents that has data that you can use to design your restructuring is bogus in my eyes.........when the fishbowl was in service they didn't do such things and the Feds had no hand in safety of design......prob because there was no need as the things were built to last and survive.....they did not care about Emmisions and MPG's
best I think you would find if there is a way to search is:
This car pulled out in front of bus
Bus pulled out in front of car
driver had stroke
that type of thing.
I NOW CALL SHENANAGINS
To Be Clear
Shenanagins= BULL SH!T
Who cares, ??? ???
Just fill it until you get 12 to 14 thousand on the front tires
and 23,000 on the rear.
All this talk of performance, handling and that nonsense has absolutely nothing to do with a BUS !
These are all NON-ISSUES... It's a flipping BUS ! :-\ :-\
This is surely starting to sound like another one of those guys just jerking us around to see how far
we will "BUY" his "STORIES"... 90% of it is completely unrealistic.
Just a load of "BULL-PUCKEY", Hope you are having a good laugh over this mister genious. With all of the "dreamer" qualifications
you seem to have why are you messing with "the great deal $100 bus"?
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Ever roll a vehicle or trailer because it was top-heavy? I have. It Sucks!
Ever do a 180 because the bed of the truck so light the rears had no bite? No fun.
Ever slide into a ditch because the back end was so heavy that it pushe you there?
Ever overload a trailer to the point that the front tires didn't brake right? Lock up easy? Flat out scarry! Just glad the trailer brakes worked.
It's a bus...so physics don't apply to it? Thats Pucky!
Physics do aply.....but the slight weights you are talking about will make no damn difference.
what are your feers as far as the buses poor handling?
you are not going to spin out ftrom lack of traction.....
slide into the ditch becasue the back end pushed you there.......thats BS...it's because you were driving to fast and trying to stop to fast.
Outside of packing the back of the bus with lead your not going to reduce the weight of the front end to do what you are concerned about.
Roll a vehicle or trailer because it was top heavy.........once again you contradist your claimed training.......why did you load it top heavy, why did you drive it outside it's capabilities.
Continued BS
Since you are an engineer lets sstop talking vaguely and in laymans terms.....there are other people on here with techincal experience in the Automitive industry, aviation indeustry etc.......talk facts and figure with your ideas and concerns or stop talking out your butt.
Lets go back to the vector analyisi on the 125 lb fan clutch and rework that as your calculations are incorrect for the monocoque design
Quote from: WorkingOnWise on April 17, 2007, 07:58:06 AM
Ever roll a vehicle or trailer because it was top-heavy? I have. It Sucks!
Ever do a 180 because the bed of the truck so light the rears had no bite? No fun.
Ever slide into a ditch because the back end was so heavy that it pushe you there?
Ever overload a trailer to the point that the front tires didn't brake right? Lock up easy? Flat out scarry! Just glad the trailer brakes worked.
It's a bus...so physics don't apply to it? Thats Pucky!
Those are all operator errors.
Dr Dave,
I think you're right; we may have a troll infection.
um..ok boss.....sorry.
People do dumb stuff some times. Me, and others. I don''t need a vehicle that is so poorly balanced that I must tailor my evasive maneuvers to the unnecessarily low limits of the coach and the situation at hand, thats all.
I learned at 16 about proper weight distribution, after I was repacking stuff into a second trailer, the right way, after rolling it. Fortunately (?) the hitch snapped and trailed gently slid into the ditch. The car was fine.
Yeah, the slide into a ditch and the overloaded trailer were all me.
The 180 however, was a result of a bonehead in a 4x4 doing 65 on an ice-covered road, passing me who was going 35 along with everyone else, losing control, and sliding in front of me. I had nowhere good to go, so let off the gas (had to lose speed somehow) and tried to steer around him. I slid sideways and then around, scrubbing off enough speed that we never touched. While the 180 was helpful, it is Not the way I would have chosen to avoid the collision. That same situation in a bus would have put a 35' road block, or 65' with a trailer, with much more momentum that my little truck had. The result would not have been as clean had the bus spun. In a bus, I would have simply held the wheel straight, held the gas steady, and hit him with my big black rubber bumper, hoping they would save the coach from too much damage. The truck sliding in front of me would have been an afterthought.
unloaded pickups are very poorly balanced.
Poor balance shows fastest when you are least able to do much about it- at the limits or available traction.
The point being, a poorly balanced vehicle of any size is dangerous.
Ideally we should never get into a situation where it is a problem. In reality, we are not always so blessed.
As for your statements about the calculations being incorrect for the monocoque design, while I do not fully agree, I don't know for sure, so I will test it and let the model show me.
As for crash data, you assumed I meant some agency source it sounds like.
The data I will have to use comes from
1- a model of my coach, with information on metallurgical properties from knowing what metals are there, which I still have to get. That gives me the baseline.
2- Crash reports involving 35' fishbowls with 6v71's and 2sppd transmission. The reports all say the speed range of the impact, and what angle, and what what the other object was. I'll be looking for collisions with stationary objects. I'll run several of those scenarios against the baseline to be sure my model is accurate. Then I'll build the model as I want to modify the coach, and run the same scenarios, and compare.
There are other forms of data available than what is spoon fed. With stuff this old, yeah,, I'll have more work that just googleing for it.
From my 1.3 million miles of driving, I'll tell you that weight overhang in the back of the trailer does make a difference in ride quality. But-not what you think. Take a semi-trailer that is loaded such that you have to run with the rear axles slid all the way back compared to when the trailer is loaded such that you have to run with the rear axles slid all the way forward (about 10ft). When the axles are slid all the way forward, with the extra weight behind the axles, the bouncing action of the trailer is much slower and rides much smoother. This is the same theory with buses. Weight on the overhang of the bus makes the oscillation of the rebound much slower and more enjoyable to ride in. That's one of the reasons I installed my 10kw generator (about 600lb total) in front next to the drivers seat like a front engine. Also, before building, I went through and did a side to side weight estimate and decided to put the kitchen on the left side along with the reefer, washer/dryer, furnace and propane tank, and the bathroom on the right side (it is built around the rear door so to have direct bathroom access from the outside) along with my 2-8D batteries and 100# freezer. I ended up with the bus a few hundred pounds heavier on the left-just like I wanted because of the crown in most roads, and the axle weights are 10,500lb front and 20,500lb rear-which is no where close to the 13,000lb front and 23,000lb rear axle ratings. Good Luck, TomC
I have only driven a semi-trailer 2 times, for maybe 300 miles, so I have 0 knowledge of trailer axle position vs. ride quality. I can see how the overhanging weight could improve ride. I has a 77 Lincoln Mark 5 and a 460, hydraulic boost brakes, and every weight adding option ford offered. It was a heavy beast, and there was lots of weight past the front and rear tires. And it rode great, even with stiffer springs and tighter shocks
Heres a question TomC
How does that weight in the overhangs affect handling, compared to the same weight moved to between the wheels, and closer to the center.
It sounds like you know a bunch about driving very heavy vehicles. My experience is from cars. Much smaller. I assumed that the dynamics are the same, just bigger numbers.
Thanks
Keith
Why not run it thru that stimulation computer, then you will know the exact optimum location for everything in the bus. ;D
Seems like you could load the bus up with a bunch accelerometer sensors & data recorders.
Drive a given route several times to establish a good base line.
Add weight & repeat the route.
Move the weight & repeat.
The results can be studied to determine optimum placement for best ride.
The car & class 8 trucks have different frame design & as a result the specific dynamics will be very different.
But you knew that already.
At a certain point, too much overhang weight can cause the tail to wag the dog (how many times have you seen a sticks and staples with the drive axle just about in the middle of the motorhome with a tag behind and a monster amount of rear overhang? Then they are pulling a car too-they are braver than I am). On a bus, you typically will not have to worry about the weight issue. The one bus that comes to mind with a lot of rear overhang is VanHool. I did see one get hung up with the wheels in the air coming out of a driveway, but once again that is driver error, since he should have taken it at an angle, or even back out instead.
With weight past the rear axles, it will slow the oscillations of the bus. I installed 3 roof airs that added about 330lb to the top of the bus. I did notice a bit more rocking action compared to without the A/C's, but not bad. The transits don't have those big anti sway bars for nothing. With a conversion, it would be very hard to overload the bus unless you were to put an exorbitant amount of marble, slate, granite, with very heavy furnishings. I know Newell on their latest 45ft'r weighs in at a whopping 54,000lb, but also has a 62,000lb gvw (18 front, 26 drive, 18 tag). So their 625hp Caterpillar with 2050lb/ft torque going through the ZF 10spd Freedom transmission has its' work cut out. Good Luck, TomC
If I removed 125# from the engine of my 4107 the result would be about 150# less on the rear and 25# more on the front axle. Net change of 125#. A basic 4-1 lever. Engine is about 5' behind the axle and about 20' to the front axle from the rear axle. Don't see how you arrived at 400# at the rear. Is Al Gore a relative? ::)
My bus is designed to have around 1000# change near the front axle between full fuel and low fuel. I doubt that there were any passenger/baggage loading restrictions to keep the bus 'stable'. Short of putting a couple ton on the roof I don't think there is much you could do to change the handling substantially other than tires and shocks.
Kevin
Please don't take this the wrong way....PLEASE JUST ENJOY YOUR BUS!!!
It is reassuring to see you care about your fellow man in trying to make your bus as safe,efficient ,environmentally friendly as possible , AND FOR THAT I/WE ALL THANK YOU!!!!!! PLEASE DO TAKE TIME AN ENJOY DRIVING AND USING YOUR BUS there are a lot great bus nuts out on the road.I hope you find that when you get out on the road YOU WILL FIND AN EXTENDED FAMILY JUST ABOUT EVERY WHERE YOU GO!!!!! Please take time enjoy your bus,family,friends,and a few loose nuts :).
Dwane MC8 Tin Tent
Don4107- Thats It! I draw The Line At Uncle Al!!! You have gone Too FAR Now! :D
Kidding.
Don't know much about him other that he is a politician. Unless he runs for president, That's all I want to know of him.
I think the number problem arrises from where I believe the fulcrum to be, and where you believe it to be? I say it is at the center of the rear wheels for all weight behind them.
AFAIK, the position of the front axle has no bearing on this situation. It is after the fulcrum here, so it is part of the effect, not the cause.
mc8 tin tent- Thankyou sir. I will. :)
Thanks
Keith
Any weight you remove from behind the drive axle will have significant effect on brakeing so you need to do another vetor analysis on the rear axle when the back end wants to pole vault over the front in hard braking.
BTW I agree with you that what you are suggesting is possible with enough time and money, but most of us will not live long enough to accomplish all the the things you are suggesting even with a lot of money. Even with the best of computer modeling there will be a lot of test and fine tune time.
WoW, first, I agree with Dwane. Build your bus the way that you will enjoy it most and then enjoy it. A common motto here is 'Do it your way". In spite of the conflict over theories, concerns about over thinking design, etc., I think everyone here wants you to succeed and enjoy your conversion and the process of getting there. Always listen carefully, as this board is loaded with people with vast experience as bus mechanics and converters, and a few engineers. But in the end, it is your bus, your time, your money and your potential success or failure.
OK, now, I can't resist discussions in physics.
Quote from: WorkingOnWise on April 17, 2007, 05:09:05 PM
AFAIK, the position of the front axle has no bearing on this situation. It is after the fulcrum here, so it is part of the effect, not the cause.
You can't evaluate a lever without considering the length on both sides of the fulcrum and the placement of all positive or negative weights along the way. This would include the placement of the front wheels, the presence or not of a spare tire/wheel under the front, placement of all tanks and their state of fill.
Now back to practical matters. On a 30,000 pound bus, the placement of a few hundred pounds with our without leverage, isn't going to make a noticeable difference in handling. Consider, most commercial buses were designed to carry a variable number of passengers ranging from just a few, or even just the driver, to 40 or more. The driver has little or no control over where the people sit or stand. Yet the bus is still deemed safe for public transportation, a standard far more stringent than the needs of private personal use coaches.
Anyway, as I said, this is not to discourage you from calculating everything and doing all the planning you choose to. It is your bus to enjoy and that includes the planning and conversion process.
Do it your way.
Quote from: Stan on April 17, 2007, 06:09:43 PM
Any weight you remove from behind the drive axle will have significant effect on brakeing so you need to do another vetor analysis on the rear axle when the back end wants to pole vault over the front in hard braking.
In concept I agree, but with a 2000-3000 drivetrain hanging from the back, I don't think removing 125# or even 400# is going to make that difference. Consider, how much weight is typically removed from the back when the OTR air conditioning system is removed?
Hello HighTechRedneck,
True, a few hundred pounds here or there will not impact anything in a measurable way, but 160lbs of batteries, and 300 lbs of A/C equipment, and 100 lbs of washer/dryer, and a dozen other things in the 100lb and up neighborhood, if placed thoughtfully, can make a nice driving coach great, and carelessly placed can make a nice driving coach a terror, or so I imagine. I'm looking at easily 3000 lbs of stuff that I can control where it gets placed in the coach. I'm looking for more, if there are some things I may miss.
I am no bus expert (I know, I know, some of you are shocked to hear that! :) ), so I don't know how much weight the OTR a/c weighs. If is more that a few hundred pounds, I would imagine that there would be a noticeable difference in an unloaded coach, wouldn't there be?
Part of the reason for my questions is this. Like in any brainstorming task, I start with everything that comes to mind. Everything! Then I sift out the things that are just wayyyyy too costly or time consuming, then sift out the ones that are just flash and not needed and not wanted. Then I prioritize the rest, based on desirability. Then I look at reasons y not to do each one. Then I study the ones that are left. Thats where I am now.
You may not believe some of the ideas that survived all the way thru to deciding y not to do them! My current list is conservative compared to 6 months ago! :)
Thanks for the consideration and perspective. I am rapidlly learning that this board is very different from many I have been on. A ton of knowledge and experience here, and a great willingness to share it, peppered with some spicy personalities! lol
Thanks
Keith
Keith, when you change the weight of a vehicle, unless the weight is perfectly situated over an axle, it affects the weight on both axles. If I put my considerable weight (not 400# ??? and definitely not 125#) on the rear bumper it adds weight to the rear axle and removes weight from the front axle. If I stand half way between the axles it puts about equal weight on both. If I stand on the front bumper the front axle weight goes up and the rear goes down.
I agree that for your reference the rear axle is the fulcrum, if you remove weight from behind the axle the lever (frame) on the other side of the fulcrum, has less force trying to balance it and therefore the front axle has to support that weight with a ratio of about 4-1. If you hold a pencil (frame) in the middle(rear axle) and remove weight from one end by pushing up on it what happens to the other end(front axle). It pushes down.
If your are worried about balance, I would spend my energy trying to keep it roughly balanced from side to side and not worry much about front to rear.
Keith -
Based on my real-world industry experience, there is no significant difference between a fully loaded Fishbowl and an empty one when it comes to handling. Only exception is the difference between one with power steering and one without. Period. BTDT.
The above statement refers to your bus.
However:
MC-7s, 8s, and 9s like to corner on the rub rails, especially when loaded with passengers and no luggage downstairs. Later models, starting with the 96/102A3s are much better in this regard due to changes in suspension geometry.
Prevosts have always handled well, but do get a little bouncy if you lift the tag axle and run down the highway.
Eagles, with their Torsilastic suspension, ride and handle very well, unless the shocks are worn, then they tend to porpoise - sometimes to the point of actually bucking the driver out of his seat, unless he's belted in (which he should be anyway.)
Setras handle like a big BMW, but that makes sense - they're German.
The only coach I've ever noticed a significant difference in the handling based on loading is the GMC PD4107 and 4108 (same bus, latter's a little newer). Due to their design, when fully loaded with passengers only, they have a greater tendency to list when cornering. However, if the baggage bins are loaded too, that tendency is reduced. (Still not my favorite coach to drive - search the archives.)
The 4107/4108's bigger brother, the 4905, did not seem to suffer the same between loaded and empty. The longer wheelbase of that model "tamed the beast", so to speak.
My own coach, a 4106, has the industry nickname of "Sports Car of Buses". . . GM really got this one right, as they did with the RTS, which is the next generation sports car of buses. (Think 1964 Corvette vs 1977 Corvette - same car, different generation.)
So, based on my experience, I think you're worrying about a minor thing.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
PS: What's the VIN on your coach?
Hi Russ,
So that puts a very different spin on it. Do you think that is because the fishbowls have a floor that is 18" lower than the highway buses, putting all the weight lower, lowering the cg?
I saw your question about the VIN and totally forgot. Sorry. Its TDH45191552.
It was purchased by the city of Lansing for their transit system, LATA, sold to a guy from Dearborn about 1992, gutted and turned into a very rough hunting shack, then driven to Millbrook MI, where it got driven around his hunting camp once a year until 2005, when My wife and I bought it.
Thanks
Keith
Keith
You seem to be very concerned about getting the weight in your bus just right. You talk about the fulcrum and moving 100-300# on either side will make a difference on how the bus handles. Are you going to stop and move your weight when you encounter a 40 mph head wind? Are you going to stop and move your weight when you are not traveling on absolute flat ground? My point is when driving down the road your weight is constantly being transferred front to back and side to side. A few hundred ponds here or there is not going to make a difference.
My .02 Duane
ahh more people are joing my camp....I beleive I stated no noticable handling difference pretty much whatever he does save a few thousand pounds of lead in one spot.
Quoteahh more people are joing my camp....I beleive I stated no noticable handling difference pretty much whatever he does save a few thousand pounds of lead in one spot.
You aren't gloating............. are you? ::) I was/am hoping you are offering your information to help someone as opposed to having an opinion and needing to be right. That would kind of ruin it. :P
Just an observation, ;)
Chaz
Hey Russ Your getting pretty close to home with your comments :) I have a 77 Corvette and a Fishbowl I can relate to how they both handle. :)
nope not gloating....just a indirect response to another member who thought I was spounting off and questioning my "expurt" staus as he put it.
Quote from: WorkingOnWise on April 18, 2007, 09:26:14 AM
So that puts a very different spin on it. Do you think that is because the fishbowls have a floor that is 18" lower than the highway buses, putting all the weight lower, lowering the cg?
According to GMC's own sales literature, my 4106 is all of 1.5 inches taller than a Fishbowl. Don't think an inch and a half is going to make any significant difference in the CG.
OTOH, the 4107/4108/4905 are nearly a foot taller at 131". As I said in my original post, the shorter 35' models were affected more with a full passenger load and nothing downstairs compared to the longer 40' models.
BTW, the RTS sales brochure says that model is 118" tall. . .
Quote from: WorkingOnWise on April 18, 2007, 09:26:14 AM
I saw your question about the VIN and totally forgot. Sorry. Its TDH45191552. It was purchased by the city of Lansing for their transit system, LATA, sold to a guy from Dearborn about 1992, gutted and turned into a very rough hunting shack, then driven to Millbrook MI, where it got driven around his hunting camp once a year until 2005, when My wife and I bought it.
Are you sure you got the VIN correct? According to my sources, TDH4519-1552 was delivered new in July of 1967 as fleet number 110 to Gray Line Motor Tours of New Orleans, LA.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Thanks Don.
Let's remember that the bus has two ends? Mess with the back and you will mess with the front.
WoW, I might suggest you do some math to figure out the potential percentage change you are wasting your, (and our) time discussing.
Way to much time and effort for effectively no change.
GM Fishbowl needs nothing other than be sure you have the right bars installed underneath as far as handling goes. You can do anything you like, it won't tip over. Highspeed circles, tires squealing, no roll over. I might recommend that you ensure your suspension is in operable condition, radius rod bushings, and shocks all in DOT condition before trying it, since these things are usually in "out of service" conditions on a $100 bus.
This collection of posts are all fine if we just want to spend our time chewing the fat via the keyboard, however it is not a productive use of time if you are actually planning to impliment.
I don't know if you realize you have a credibility problem now.
Start doing some conversion work, change out some mechanical and get it up to roadworthy condition, let us know how you are making out, and then we'll be happy to chew some more fat.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on April 19, 2007, 08:52:40 AM
Thanks Don.
Let's remember that the bus has two ends? Mess with the back and you will mess with the front.
Boy, you got that right. Quite a few years ago but, replacing the REAR bushings in my 4104 made all the difference in the world in steering and handling.
Len
I guess I don't understand what all the excitement is, my bus was originally designed to hold about 50 passengers and all their luggage, now it holds me, I would think trimming 100 pounds out would be a little like throwing a deck chair off a cruise ship, but I don't claim to be an engineer or even an acrobat, just a dumb guy that would rather worry about how to cover the fuel to see whats around the next corner, I guess what I'm trying to say is I would worry less about the weight transfer and enjoy life a little more, life is much too short, trolling, trolling, trolling lol.
Hi Russ,
I am sure I have the right VIN. I was told it came from Lansing, MI, and there are several route maps from the LATA transit system. I used this site, http://www.omot.org/roster/GMList/tdh4519.html , to verify what I was told. Would you please post the source of your info? I'm curious, mainly because my coach has 110 on the body, and your info confirms that number, but mine does not. Mine confirms what I was told except for the bus number.
Thanks
Keith
Keith -
Using the same link you provided, it shows that 1552 was delivered to the agency I originally posted.
Very possible that it was sold to Lansing at a later date - not an uncommon thing in the bus industry.
If you look a little further down the list, you'll see that units 1562 - 1565 were delivered new to Lansing. Matter of fact, unit 1563 was Lansing fleet number 110.
The plot thickens. . .
;)
Hi Russ,
Ok, so maybe I am as much of an idiot as some here think I am!
I could not figure out how in the world you got your info on my coach so messed up!? I looked and saw that coach serial # 1552 went to LA, and is fleet number 110, but my coach is 1522, which went to MI. So I figures I'd double check the VIN I posted...and saw I posted TDH45191552. ??? I have had that vin memorized for 2 years now, but my fingers must not have it memorized! The correct VIN is TDH45191522. :-[
Thanks
Keith
Ok, I did it. I took the coach for a low speed (40mph) tight turn drive, to see how it handles, because so many here have told me basically that this thing is rock stable.
WOW!!! It was wild! I took 3 different turns at speeds higher that any sane person should, and it held fine! Tires howeling away, even to the point of severe under steer, but still very controllable! I did get sideways when I hit the brakes a bit hard after entering the turn too fast and chickening out. The coach slid off the road and into a shallow ditch, and stopped. I am glad I was in the country! I was only going 30, but it was a t with a stop, so I really should have slowed to maybe half that.
Suffice it to say that I drove it harder today that I ever intend to again, and the only time it really got away from me is when I begged it to with way too much speed in a turn.
I know it will handle much differently loaded, after a conversion, but this drive put my mind at ease about the balance of these coaches.
I did this on old well-worn tires. I didn't want to risk A good set of tires.
So now I can look for a more suitable coach to convert and relax a bit on the balance of the vehicle.
All in all, it is a very forgiving machine.
Thanks
Keith
Wow, you are WAY over thinking this. Skip a few ice cream cones, set the air bags to correct height and drive.
Todd :)
Quote from: Todd on May 14, 2007, 05:31:19 PM
Wow, you are WAY over thinking this. Skip a few ice cream cones, set the air bags to correct height and drive.
Todd :)
WOW" simple, straight to the point, yet powerful in it's simplicity, Einsteinian even, pure genius. Todd you said more in 22 words or in 85 letters, than everything said by all of us, and all our words put together. So Todd I am awarding you on this day the 14th day of May in the year of our Lord 2007 "The Mega Atta Boy Award" which is worth 50 of those little Atta Boys, plus three High Fives, and a slap on the back. If you were an athlete in your younger day and played Football, Baseball, or Basketball you can convert the back slap to a butt slap for old time sake.
WVaNative
and perhaps we need a flight plan registered on here, so we can stay out of the way of WoW...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Buswarrior, that was really funny I'm busting a gut over here. It's always good to stay out of the way when someone is practicing with guns, horseshoes, and buses lol.
WVaNative
buswarrior, cute :D.
Thats y I did that adventure in the country. The coon's and possum in the neighborhood are still hiding!
I'm not the first here to power slide a bus into a ditch am I? lol
Keith -
I power-slid a brand-new MC-9 on a frozen bridge WB on I-80 from Reno in a blizzard with 44 passengers, three full baggage bins and no chains back in the mid-'80s. Kept it between the snow plow poles, too! ;D
After we got straightened out, I asked the folks riding shotgun in the front seats if they wanted me to go around and do that again - but their faces were as ashen as the grey hair on their heads, so we continued on. . .
I knew learning to drive in Ralph Nader's favorite car would serve me well some day!!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: WorkingOnWise on May 16, 2007, 07:58:02 PM
buswarrior, cute :D.
Thats y I did that adventure in the country. The coon's and possum in the neighborhood are still hiding!
I'm not the first here to power slide a bus into a ditch am I? lol
For an encore you do some donuts with it. ;D ;D ;D
Seriously though, even though buses are very tip resistent due to being bottome heavy, ditches can roll them over. That was a very dangerous experiment.
Only mildly dangerous. By ditch I mean a 12" deep 4' wide low spot for rainwater drainage. By the time I was flying (30mph) into that turn, I was confident of the coaches stability. I was glad I didnt peel a tire off!
It was not a ride I'd like to take again, but I did learn about driving a coach, with no traffic to worry about. And I never did like coon that much! :D
As for dough nuts....well I'll wait till I can find a 500' clear ice covered parkinglot. Anyone wanna ride?
Take her out on Lake Superior in the winter.... lots of room there, just don't run over any shacks! LOL
Oh Man! I could charge admission for that ride!
And some of you here think the newlooks are junk! Pish Posh! :D :D
Quote from: wvanative on May 14, 2007, 07:11:41 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 14, 2007, 05:31:19 PM
Wow, you are WAY over thinking this. Skip a few ice cream cones, set the air bags to correct height and drive.
Todd :)
WOW" simple, straight to the point, yet powerful in it's simplicity, Einsteinian even, pure genius. Todd you said more in 22 words or in 85 letters, than everything said by all of us, and all our words put together. So Todd I am awarding you on this day the 14th day of May in the year of our Lord 2007 "The Mega Atta Boy Award" which is worth 50 of those little Atta Boys, plus three High Fives, and a slap on the back. If you were an athlete in your younger day and played Football, Baseball, or Basketball you can convert the back slap to a butt slap for old time sake.
WVaNative
Can we ALL give him a Butt slap ;D
Speaking of setting the Ride Hight, Which waty do you set them for a bit Softer ride.. I have the manuals but they dont tell you that..
Paul... T6H4521-271
Hmmmmm. . . . .
Quote from: superpickle on May 17, 2007, 11:46:43 AM
Speaking of setting the Ride Height, Which way do you set them for a bit Softer ride.. I have the manuals but they don't tell you that...
Paul... T6H4521-271
Paul -The manuals don't tell you that because you're not setting up the ride for a Cadillac/Lincoln. You're setting up the ride for an industrial piece of machinery, in this case, a transit bus.
Do you really think you can second-guess the team of factory engineers who designed the suspension system for your coach?
Set the ride height to the correct setting per the shop manual. That's the setting for the best combination of ride quality and handling, as determined by the factory.
And install new shocks. . .
BTW, the ride characteristics of a transit bus are quite different than those of a highway coach. Guess which one rides "smoother". . . and why do you suppose so? Especially if they're both air suspension systems. . .
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Air bags are similar to tires. Air bags have steel cords from top to bottom. Air bags do not have the capability to flex. Less air is less ride height, more air is more ride height PERIOD.
I have had people tell that changing the ride height affected the handling on their buses. I do not remember waht make or model these buses were, but this should probably be considered. Jack
Quote from: NJT 5573 on May 17, 2007, 07:49:28 PM
Air bags are similar to tires. Air bags have steel cords from top to bottom. Air bags do not have the capability to flex. Less air is less ride height, more air is more ride height PERIOD.
The Firestone design guide mentioned fabric plys but not steel cords. Air bags DO FLEX. They are air springs & changing the air pressure changes the spring rate. It is this that makes them great for buses, you can change the spring rate to suit the load - full of passangers or just a few. The ride height valves do this automatically.
Here is the link to the design guide:
http://www.firestoneindustrial.com/pdfs/OE/AirideDG.pdf
Maybe this can explain air bags well enough to answer the questions, seems there is more to it than some realize :)
Kyle -
Great link - thanks for sharing!
NJT5573 -
"Air bags do not have the capability to flex."
So you're saying that springs (like leaf, coil steel or air) don't flex?
Wow, learn something new every day. . .
;)