Hi All,
My wife and I are converting a 1966 "Fishbowl" TDH4519 into our retirement motorhome. We love the look of the coach, and the simplicity of it. After a year of planning and research, we have settled on the floorplan, which requires me to stretch it coach by 10', to 45'. I know, there's all sorts of engineering problems to solve, like added weight, available power, and structural integrity issues. I have those problems solved. There is no way we could afford to buy what we are building, which will cost at least 200k, but we can build it for under 80k, and tons of labor. We know, we'll never be able to sell it for what we put into it. That's not our goal. Our goal is to keep and use it for another 40 years, and then pass it on to a grandchild.
On to my question. Is there a big difference driving a 45' coach compared to a 35' coach, all else being equal?
I ask because a few weeks ago I had to tow a 10' utility trailer for a friend, and back it into hig driveway. Wow what a PAIN! I can slide a 40' 5th wheel thats 8' wide between trees that are 8'3" apart looking in the mirrors...no big deal. This little trailer was all over the place. I'll never back one in again! Made me look bad!
If the difference between 35' and 45' is That dramatic, I'll seriously rethink the stretch. Otherwise, I'm just about ready for the sawsall.
Thanks
Keith
Hollo Keith,
Welcome Abord!
You have a very good question, and you will get all kinds of answers, i'm sure..
A 45' coach presents the problem of parking lots and campgrounds. I think a 40' coach is maximum for theese conditions because,
the turning radius needed for thoose darn curbs they have in parking lots now a days. Even big lot like Walmart. I can't see trying to make
thoose turns with a 45'. And for Campgrounds, most will have way too tight of turns for you to get through them unless you are only going
to be in high-end resorts.
Now, for structual... A 10 ft. stretch is a major project. If you are the engenieer type, then by all means...go for it!
A 5' stretch would be a safer challange to accomplish! What ever you decide, Good Luck to You and your Wife with the project!
Nick Badame-
P.S. Luke at US Coach has many Fishbowls in his yard.
Keith,
Good luck on your engineering feat.
You'll find most of the National Park CG's are limited for vehicle length and many of the State campgrounds also.
In fact, the State campground we are at in SC right now has a couple of 42' campsites, but I could just barely get around with my 35' GMC because the road is so narrow and the trees at the curves are so close.
On your backing problems between the 5th wheel and the little trailer:
With a 5th wheel, you have the hitch pretty close to being over the rear axle. That means that when you turn your front wheels, your pivot point and the hitch are pretty close together, making it easier to the trailer go where you want it.
When you have a standard ball or pintle hitch, your hitch is a long way from the pivot point and so is more active because the pivoting angle is increased dramatically.
Another thing is that the distance from the hitch to the trailer axle makes a lot of difference. The closer they are, the more active the trailer will be.
An old method of backing a trailer is to put one hand on the bottom of the steering wheel. That way if you have to move the trailer to the left, you move your hand to the left, and you aren't tempted to try and over steer.
Good luck and welcome to our madness!
Dallas
Hi Keith,
My coach is a 45'...and I have no problems with driving it anywhere I want to go. I'm use to driving long vehicles. As for as stretching your coach, I haven't a clue. You will definately get pros and cons on streaching it.
By the way, the shorter the trailer, the harder it is to back...the longer, the easier!!!
BILL
One other factor that would help us answer your question better is "Where is the 10 ft being added? Is the wheelbase being stretched the full 10 feet, or is there extra front/rear overhang? Each of these areas has different affects and problems with the driveability.
Thanks Everyone,
Someone asked "Where is the 10 ft being added?" It would all be in the wheelbase. The approach and departure angles are too shallow right now. I don't want to get hung up in the rear. It's easy enough as is. :)
I wondered about that too (parking), but it's real tough to even find a 40' to take and whip around the local Walmart. Now I know. And a 5' stretch will only tease us. It's either 10' stretch or no stretch. Hmm.
And I have only rv'ed in 5th wheels and travel trailers where I may be 60' long, but have a pivot in the middle. I almost took a maple tree with me when I drive this coach home, not realizing how long the sides are!
Would a 25' trailer that would sit beside the coach when parked be reasonable in your opinion? We will have a trailer with us all the time anyway for our car and toys (quad's and inflatable boat and the like)?
The second trailer would be where our Master suite is, and an office, and I would have a slidout that would connect the 2.
Roughly like this.
********************
* * Coach
* *
********************
**** Slide out to connect them
************
* * 25' Trailer
* *
************
I know it will require us to pay double for 2 spaces, and limit where we can go to some degree, but I think this may be easier that a 45' Fishbowl, in driving and structurally.
The reason for the added space is that there are some things we just do not want to give up when we go totally crazy and start full-timing again.
Oh, who Is Luke at US Coach? I googled US Coach Luke and, well, the was not helpful. I tried uscoach.com, and I doubt that is who you meant.
Thanks
Keith
Hi Keith,
US Coach
127 Berlin Crosskeys Rd.
Berlin, N.J. 08009
856-767-3323 or 4848
Luke Bonagoura
Nick-
Keith- I have a 40ft AMGeneral transit that is 102" wide without slide outs. I hope yours is also a 102" wide-that extra 6 inches is really alot! Course if you're putting in slide outs, that will do more-course I don't know quite how you'd do slide outs on a GMC fishbowl since it is a unibody design.
Just to give you an idea of what you'll be up against with a 45 ft'r, look at Woodalls (or similar) camping guide and see how many campsites will accomodate a 45ft'r. Then look at how many are 40ft and then 35ft. It's eye opening. So much so, my next conversion will be a 35ft highway bus, since they are higher profile and usually have the floor flat all the way to the rear wall. Compared to my bus that has the last 3 ft taken up with the engine protrusion-course the above space makes for a nice 5ft closet.
As far as driving a 35 ft'r compared to your idea of adding 10ft to the center of the bus (I assume) leaving the same over hang on either end of the bus- it'll be dramatically disappointing. Remember, most highway buses have the drivers well in from the rear with the tag axle behind the driver (exception Eagle 5 and above). And most 45 ft'rs have steerable tags- they are like casters the turn with the movement of the bus and lock out for reverse.
My suggestion would be two fold. First that you keep the 35 ft length and just put everything you want in there with the minimum of closet space. Then pull a 20ft trailer that will have your extra storage space in it for clothes, bikes, ATVs,etc. Then also plumb it so you can have your washer/dryer in the trailer also. Possibly also a small lounge that can convert into another sleeping area for guests with a bathroom. Then you keep your nice 35ft length and can easily remodel the trailer as you see fit.
The second suggestion is that I hope you have at least a 6V-92TA in the bus to get 350hp out of it. I can tell you from experience that the V730 3 speed automatic is a limiting factor to high speed travel. I have a 8V-71 in mine that I just had turboed to go from 300hp and 800lb/ft of torque to 375hp and 1125lb/ft of torque (actual tested flywheel horsepower). While it gives much better hill climbing, my startability is a bit less with the throttle modulator. Once past 10mph, it gets up and goes. My bus is geared with 4.625 rears with 11R-24.5 tires that give me 65mph at 2100rpm and topping out at 72.5 mph at 2350rpm. If you had a more modern bus with an inline drivetrain, you could use a 4 stroke engine and a 6 speed Allison transmission that you could gear to be cruising at 75 mph at 1600rpm, still with good startability. But-if you already have the bus, too late. Good Luck, TomC
Keith, welcome to the board. One of the things that's impressed me with this group is the mutual respect shown by virtually everyone on this particular board. I've been in the bus business for a few decades, so I was driving 35-foot and 40-foot fishbowls while they were in transit service.
I can tell you that, as a driver, there's a significant difference in turns between the 35 foot and 40-foot fishbowls, and an added difference between the 96-inch width and the 102-inch width. I looked up the specs in a 4323/5307&8 Maintenance Manual. (the 4523 is two models newer than your 4519, to the best of my knowledge there was never a 4520 or 4522). Interestingly, the turn radius changes by almost exactly five feet.
Turning Radius at the wheels:
Wheels .... 35'X96" 32 feet, 2 inches
Wheels .... 40'X96" 37 feet, 1 inch
Wheels .... 40'X102" 37 feet, 3 inches (but it sure seemed a lot different when I drove)
Over Body Corner
B. Cor. .... 35'X96" 37 feet, 1 inch
B. Cor .... 40'X96" 42 feet, 1 inch
B. Cor. .... 40'X102" 42 feet, 3 inches
Now, I don't know if this would extrapolate to a similar increase in going to a 45-foot bus; but it might.
I, too like fishbowls. Since you've mentioned you'd looked at the engineering aspects of a stretch, I won't comment on the monocoque construction - I assume you're familiar with it and have addressed the concerns. (For others, monocoque or unibody construction means that if you slice the roof open, the engine falls out - like an aircraft, even the skin is structural.)
Just the amount of work I'm doing on my 4107, updating the interior, would make me pick and choose my projects. If I needed more length, I'd sell my 35-foot 4107 and buy a 40-foot 4905. So, a question for your consideration ... would a 40 foot, 102 inch wide fishbowl work with your plans? If that may be an option, how would it affect your costs?
That said, what you're proposing sounds like a fascinating project, I wish you success.
Arthur
My opinion although Biased is you'll find your 40' Fishbowl more than enough space especially as TomC mentions if it is 102 wide. The transit turns sharper than the highway buses so keep that in mind. One of the benifits of the transit.
Wow, great stuff Arthur! It stands to reason that a 45' fishbowl would have a 47'+ turning radius, based on your numbers. Wow! I am so glad I asked this ?! The 35' is enough for me to drive. My wife is still very scared of it! She is like a kid! Thrilled to stand there while I drive, but I can,t get her to drive it around the field it's parked in, and there are no maple trees for 300"! lol
As for going to a 40' 102" fishbowl and the effect on cost, I paid $100 for this running and drivable coach. The electrics are shot, except for the alternator, regulator, and starter, and the solenoids needed for starting and shifting, but I planned on totally rewiring and updating it before I even bought it. It was gutted to the metal walls already, so I could see the (very few, given it is 41 years old) rust problems. I can start it in 45f weather with no ether, and in 15f weather with a single short burst of either while I crank it over from the back.
In all, I got an awesome deal, and doubt I'll find the like in a 40'!
With that said, I will be adding a "second skin" of sorts, to add 2.5" of additional insulation th each wall, for a total of 5" of insulation in 6" thick walls, giving an interior width of 7'5". I need the insulation because we plan to use this coach everywhere, anytime.
But, if you know where I can come close to the deal I got on this coach, in a 40' 102", I'm all ears!
As for the slideouts, I will be building a spaceframe between the wheels to replace everything from the floor down. This spaceframe will be stronger than the original monoque design, and will allow me to have storage bays and slides in a stronger and equal weight design. I worked to reduce the weight, but I only succeeded in weakening the structure too much.
It is a cool project. The scarry part will be grafting the new spaceframe into coach. Weeeee!
Thanks
Keith
Sorry Keith I thought you "had " a 40' I can't read. :)
I would go for the the bigger trailer. Would also consider a 40' coach to start with. Adding 10' and keeping the font/rear overhang the same simply means your main clearance problem will be the center of the coach. There will be many parking lots that won't be a problem because you won't be able to get over the entrance to them without high centering. Take your coach and pull on to the average approach over a sidewalk and then project that wheel base another 10'. Both for ground clearance and turning radius
Quite often when traveling unfamiliar places, with traffic and the size of the rig in the first place, it can be hard to judge what the approach looks like until you are committed to the turn. What do you do when you are in a turn only lane with traffic behind you and you realize you can't clear whats ahead.
We are on our second coach. We chose to stay with 35' because it is so much more maneuverable. With the rig your planning you would be pretty much limited to places you can take and park a semi. But hey, if that's what turns your crank, go for it.
The 'side by side' trailer idea is one which I'd really like to see someone undertake; it's an idea I've had myself, but never actually seen done. The closest I have seen is a double-decker bus run as a mobile studio / offices by the BBC, which has a trailer which is placed end-on in a 'T' configuration with the bus when parked up. If you do go with the 'side by side' idea, I would consider using an awning of some description over a fold-down floor between the two vehicles, or a system where the roof, walls and floor of the 'joining bit' all fold out of the sides of the trailer (not exactly like the photo below, but similar). Both solutions would involve a lot less structural engineering than a slide-out, and provide more space too.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vipex.co.uk%2Fgallery%2Fvanguard%2Fimages%2Fbt15.JPG&hash=f13a604532a3429983304ea254d265b2ee3d1c9c)
Regarding reversing short trailers - they just need a bit more practice. I used to have a towing dolly that effectively gave two pivot points between the car and trailer - now reversing that was really good fun!
Jeremy
what is this Space Frame you are talking about?
My Dina is 43 feet long and I've never had any problems driving it after a little practice. The Dina has a very short wheelbase, even shorter than a 40' MCI. It was designed and built in Mexico (For the American market) where the roads are smaller and narrower in many cases.
I have never driven any other bus so I have no idea how a 40' or 45' bus with longer wheelbase drives.
How many campgrounds would really allow you to park two RVs next to each other? I've been in precious few campgrounds, but the ones I have been have the pads quite a ways apart with only enough width for one RV on each pad.
Brian
tekebirb,
imagine welding 4 8' aluminum ladders together, to form a box 8' long. Now weld 2" triangles to each side of each rung in all both directions. What you end up with a fairly light weight and compact box that will support an incredible amount of weight and withstand an equally incredible amount of twisting, or torsional, force. That is the same concept I'll use for my coach.
Keith
OK....Afraid that is not going to work....it will break......since the bus is of Monocoque design is is ment to twist and flex.......thus will break part of the bus or your rigid construction.
I don't mean to piss on your parade but you are going to start a project that has a very high probability of never being completed...at least safely and with longevity in mind.
the bus you need to have is an RTS.....you can get them for a few thousand for a good one and they were designed modularly so sections could be added, subtracted or changed.
I would think however that for your retirement home you would want as much storage as possible...read highway coach......then everything inside can be functiaonl living/storage space rather than taking up that room with systems.
once again, not looking to piss on your parade, just to keep you in reality
Quote from: tekebird on April 15, 2007, 01:03:29 PM
the bus you need to have is an RTS.....you can get them for a few thousand for a good one and they were designed modularly so sections could be added, subtracted or changed.
Also, I don't remember where, but I once saw a photo where someone had built a trailer to match their RTS conversion using sections from a second RTS. It looked very nice. It would work quite well with Tom's suggestion:
Quote from: TomC on April 15, 2007, 09:13:47 AM
My suggestion would be two fold. First that you keep the 35 ft length and just put everything you want in there with the minimum of closet space. Then pull a 20ft trailer that will have your extra storage space in it for clothes, bikes, ATVs,etc. Then also plumb it so you can have your washer/dryer in the trailer also. Possibly also a small lounge that can convert into another sleeping area for guests with a bathroom. Then you keep your nice 35ft length and can easily remodel the trailer as you see fit.
Now that would be cool, especially if you used the front clip on the trailer
Monocoque body is structural via skin covering with structural rivets however you can transfer load bearing (trusses) around 3 sides of open area with at least 18% of opening width beyond both sides opening that's under its skin. And heavy ladder with diagonals brace trusses at bottom and strong tubing at top equal same length as bottom trusses. Use only structural body type rivets & stagger 2" between centers at 2.5" apart connected to skin of both front & rear openings.
Whatever you do don't cut into top side without planning adding trusses or steel plate close to curvature of roof line.
Roof & bottom plane is also very important structural in lateral as well fore & aft movement.
Example of a shoe box...compares by twisting both ends with & without top.
You need to check with your local bridge engineering to determine what size tubing for your needs.
All this is going add weight on one side of 1000 to 2500 lbs...depends what you use for slide out framing & mechanical devises.
Otherwise trailer option is a quick & more storage room then slide-out plus cheaper and you can disconnect at your convince. You can haul your car in with storage too. But if still want more living room...go for it if you're "Arthur" free (arthritis).
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
Here is a photo of a 35ft bus (4104) with a 25 ft. trailer. Makes for a big rig.
Richard
tekebird wrote: "...it will break......since the bus is of Monocoque design is is ment to twist and flex.......thus will break part of the bus or your rigid construction."
My understanding of a properly designed monoque is that it won't flex, unless the stresses get too great, and then it quickly goes from straight to mangled, as too much stress results on sudden breakage as the inter-dependant structure fails in a cascading manner.
Sojourner, I'm a little fuzzy on what you posted. Is that "best practices" for rivit placement on my 4519?It looks that way. If so, thanks. Thats the kind of detail I am going for in this dialog.
I have an advantage that I will use. My brother works for a firm with lots of computing power, and he and I both have simulation software that will allow me to build this coach and then simulate any stresses I want. That should allow me to build a safe and stable coach without too much wasted construction time.
I have decided to not stretch the coach, going instead for slide-outs and a side-by-side trailer idea. As for the problem of space in a campground, our campgrounds of choice are the rustic ones with no services. They are very nice typically here in Michigan. My wife likes to rough it, so this is a good compromise for us. My idea of roughing it involves no coffee creamer and 7 miles to the nearest store.
My idea of roughing it is if my alcoas need polishing
I like the idea of a trailer with extra living space. We typically tow our '96 Grand Cherokee four down for long trips. A few times a year we go to Silver Lake Sand Dunes (Michigan) and tow our 25' open car trailer loaded with an off-road truck and Quads behind our 40' Prevost. I prefer towing the trailer. I can back it up and can keep a better eye on things. We usually have friends and family along and have people sleeping all over. There is never enough room. We are thinking of an enclosed trailer that can have fold up bunks, like the "tow haulers" have.
jok
Library > Words > Dictionary mon·o·coque (mŏn'ə-kōk', -kŏk')
n.
A metal structure, such as an aircraft, in which the skin absorbs all or most of the stresses to which the body is subjected.
[French : mono-, mono- + coque, shell (from Old French, from Latin coccum, berry, from Greek kokkos).]
KEYWORD is ABSORBS
HTH
Key Woord Absorbs..........
certainly not absorbing forces by not flexing.
I see that you saw the light in your recent post whilst I was typing this,-----so never mind. ;D
Something you might want to try. Count the number of revolution the steering wheel makes from straight ahead to full lock. Now reduce that number by about 45% and take a drive in your bus never turning the wheel more than 45% of what you have now. Our 4107 is 261" = 21.75'. 10' is 45% of 21.75. This will approximate the added turning radius. Remember you must clear everything by the 10' you are going to add and only turn the wheel by the reduced amount. Try a right hand 90 degree turn from one two lane street to another with traffic coming from your right. Allow 10' extra in front of the coach and don't run over the curb. If you can do that using just over 50% of your steering you are a better bus herder than I! (Which would not take much.)
Increased wheelbase makes a huge difference in turning radius. Just the 18" or so difference between my Suburban and the wife's Tahoe makes a world of difference getting into the rice rocket sized parking spaces of today.
I agree with Teke - have you ever looked at the structure of an aircraft as it deals with turbulence - if it didn't FLEX it would break and fall out of the sky - FWIW
The existing structure of the bus was designed to have uniform flexing. BTW, everything flexes to some degree. When you change the structure, you change the flexing. Many have done it sucessfully, however, many haven't been so sucessfull.
I've used those fancy computer programs, the results will not be any better than the data entered. So be sure to analyze the data carefully before you use it as fact.
You mentioned something about $80,000 total investment in this project. . . I suggest a free bus is not a good deal if it is not what you want. If you're gonna full time, I'd strongly suggest you re-evaluate your needs out of the bus you base your retirement home on. You may find that the current bus has served its purpose in helping you determine your real needs in a motorhome. You can sell the current bus & purchase a bus that is more suitable to your goals. $20,000 can get you a nice MCI 102wide 40' bus that you can convert without the structural modifications. I'd be real surprised if you could make a slideout for less than $10,000 in parts. The big advantage in not having a slide out is the simplicity.
But not everyone thinks the same or wants the same, so build it your way. We all want to encourage you to sucess in your endeavor, hence the resistance to the massive task of heavy structural modifications.
Good luck.
heck for 80 k you can get a used professionally converted MCI
Heck - there's a 1990 Marathon - it could surely pull any trailer you have in mind with no structural issues and using none of your valuable time for conversion (or trips to the emergency room) - unless you really want to build your own, this one would put you on the road sooner - I may buy it for a spare it's so cheap - FWIW
Sorry, Niles...
No advertizments or prices.
Nick-
Sorry - wasn't trying to sell anything - Email if you want info .......
Niles, All is Ok
Thanks for understanding!
Nick-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260107596737
WorkingOnWise:
About where twin rolls of riveting.....e-mail to jjimage at earth link dot net.....and I will send a attachment too large on board.
Your software needs to incorporate the OEM bus construction if you want compare so it is strong as original.
Might add....you should consider adding reinforcement to rear engine & trans bulk head, because of added weight to front half while under acceleration during shifting mode. More so if you want stronger trailer hitch to attached to pull medium load.
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
The biggest thing stopping us from buying a coach that is "done" is that none are built to allow Michigan winter camping performance. Our coach needs to be well enough insulated to be comfortable in a harsh cold winter. I know, I know....it's an rv....it isn't intended to be in use in the dead of a Michigan winter. And that is why we will build our own. It will be difficult, and expensive. And long. But when it is done, it will be ours, and it will be beautiful. And it will be a Fishbowl, which as everyone knows, is the most beautiful coach. IM Not So HO. :)
As for the monoque info. Thanks. I plan on first simulating a stock build 4519 and testing it, to be sure that my info is close to accurate, then modify it.
There's enough crash data on these coaches for me to tell if my initial model is right.
Everyones feedback on this is awesome! Thanks.
Likely not going to find any crash data on a 4519 as they were not subject to crash testing when they were built.
I think you would be supprised as to the cold weather capabilities of a pro built unit.......I had my 04 out in sub freezing teps several times.......spray foam insulation and a diesel fired forced hot air heaater, insulated systems/tank compartment.
At 30 degrees average temp......compartment temp jsut from ambient combustion heat from the heater.....was 45 degrees and the inside of the coach got no colder than 70 degrees.....had it as hot as 85......oh and it had all it's OEM windows
How do you plan on heaaating all the systems that will have to be strapped under your bus.
Besides, I though you said it was a retirement home.........move south when it gets cold...........oh I forgot, it will be broken by then......just kidding.
30? it was 30 3 nights ago! That's not cold. -15 with 25mph winds from across Lake Superior...thats cold! And thats the environment we want it to handle.
Heating is still a moving target. We have it narrowed down to 3 ways.
"Likely not going to find any crash data on a 4519 as they were not subject to crash testing when they were built."
The "data" I will use is from crash reports involving fishbowls. I input the conditions of the crash into the program, crash the bus, and see if my model reacts like the real bus did.
but how will you model the existing buses structure?
Do you know the design of the existing structure?
Do you know what materials were used?
Do you know how it was assembled?
where are you going to locate crash data from real fishbowl crashes.
these crashes will not show you the day to day stresses
for example.......it is easy to model what an aircraft wing will do if impacted...........but the day to day stresses.
When Canadais built the CL600, predecessor to the Canadair Regiaonal Jet....the had a wing test jig which cycled the wing flexes some absurd amount.
I have a 4106, 8v71 w/ 75 injectors, allison automatic ( not the 2 speed),Also have a haden trans cooler w/fan. The air cleaners have been changed to paper element and i stay on top of keeping them clean. My engine has about 40,000 miles since its last major overhaul and runs sweet.The rad. and fan clutch are also fresh.
That said, When we pull out of Tucson with full tanks and head for the beach in San Deigo I have to fight to keep her under 70 mph on flat ground.Now this is on Hyw 8 and that pull out of Ocotilla and up to Cajon will have me down to 25 while I watch my trans temp push into the yellow and my engine temp reach 200. That pull is all she can do. The signs say 6% grade but if you do the math ( miles traveled and altitude ganed) it comes out to something more like 7 or better.
Now if anyone in a 45 fishbowl with a 671 and a 2 speed ever blows past me on that hill I,ll know who it was.
When I first got my bus I had allot of ideas about doing racey yhings to it. Now were use to each other an I try not to drive roads she will hate.
If I buy anything bigger in the near feture it will be the ice chest
Just my thoughts on it..........Tucson
LOL.. Diggin it Tuscon! I doubt I'll blow past anything with an 8V71! Compared to my transit, thats a rocket! I'll be happy tooling along at 55mph. Speaking of rockets....just how much nitros can I cram into a 6V71 and not blow the heads off? ooopps. Thats another post!
As for your larger ice chest, have you considered refrigerating a storage bay?
Yea! refer bay. now were talkin....
You know what ive come too. It aint about the bus, their a nice hobby but its about the getting away, the trip and being with your family. Belive me I get passed allot by the stick and stapel crowd, and I get to see allot of senery myself. We have been up hwy 1 as far as we dared to take it. seen tha Oragon cost and Washington coast. The Redwoods The Klameth. Been over mt Raineer and to Pikes peak.Headed for Mexico this summer. My 8v71 doesn,t go up hill much faster than your 671 will. In my oppenion, fix what you have, go over every thing on it. rebuild all the things that keep you and your family safe first. Then fix all the things that will strand you on the road . When you get that done work on the comfort stuff, but go have fun. They aint much fun torn apart in the driveway.
Good luck and if I can help you drop me a line..........Tucson
P.S. I will be adding a mister system to the rad. and to the trans cooler and finishing the hookup on my propane injection soon. With that done I hope to be able to pull my toad over that hump. If knot no matter, I just take the 10 onto California and stay off the 8..................
You can rebuild your 6V-71 into a turbo motor with the addition of the air to air intercooler (separate radiator that cools the air coming out of the turbocharger). With 80 injectors, you could get 300hp and 900lb/ft of torque-which was a setting by Detroit before stopping production. Course, you'd have to change the transmission-it would probably scatter the VS2. Running 90 injectors, you could go to 338hp and 1012lb/ft torque. But, the engine probably would only last about 200,000 miles. Good Luck, TomC
Keith, a few thoughts. If you don't have the maintenance manuals for the 4519, they are available from multiple sources. I was just looking at one on ebay that covers both automatic, city fishbowls and the SDM-4501, the suburban stickshift.
In another thread, you mention transmission replacement - have you thought about putting a 4-speed manual in? I remember driving a suburban fishbowl (SDM-4501) many years ago, four speed stick (I think out of a 4104), and she would really move. When I bought my 4107, one of my requirements was a stick.
Third, some other threads have suggested that we all put our locations in our signature lines, I updated mine at the time. The thought is that there may be knowledgeable help in the neighborhood. I'm at a local woodworking store several times a week, and a couple of months ago we happened to notice an Eagle in someone's back yard (Addison, Texas) - you never know who's in the neighborhood. There's even a chance that someone could put you in touch with senior (or retired) transit system mechanics/body shop guys who are very familiar with fishbowls. (Back then they were mechanics, now they're technicians - I must be getting old).
Beside, many of us wouldn't pass up an opportunity to go see someone else's bus.
Good luck with your plans.
Arthur
TomC- 338hp and 1012lb/ft torque!? from my 6v71?? and still expect over 150k miles from it??? Is that still at 2100 rpm? Thats not cranking the revs to 2600+? What kind of boost pressure do you need for that? If I remember right, my motor is 190hp. Thats over a 75% increase!
I have looked for info on hotrodding the 6v71 and not had much luck. 338hp and 1012lb/ft torque sure sounds like a hotrod to me!
So, will the v730 survive this? And be reliable?
You said that this was a DD setting, so I assume there is a "recipe" for whipping up this engine? My motor is fresh, so I think I'm a step ahead because to try that on a tired engine would kill it for sure, right?
I fantasized about the hod rod motor, but mot being a DD or HD diesel whiz, I figured that I should be happy with what I had, rather that play around and have to push the coach home!
Runcutter- I looked into a 4spd manual, but kept running into the fact that you have to double-clutch it to shift. While I'm sure I could get the hang of it, I doubt my wife would. She gets cranky with our F150 with a 5spd at times. So I dismissed the manual option.
If you do a light turboing like I did to mine using 75 injectors, you can get 280hp with 843 lb/ft torque, which is about what a 8V-71N puts out, plus having the turbo for high altitude use. Don Fairchild did my conversion and am impressed with his know how. He is in Bakersfield, Ca. Number- 661-391-4520. Good Luck, TomC
Hello WoW.
If she won't get behind the wheel now, she won't later.
Moral of the story, get the drivetrain that makes sence.
If she wants to drive, she'll figure it out, just like you.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Well buswarrior, I hope you are wrong. I do like driving, but it would be nice to not "have to" drive sometimes.
I can be sure however that if i put in a manual, she will never drive it.
please be wrong, please be wrong...
Thanks
Keith
WoW,
My father and I own a charter bus company, and we have several friends who do also! While we just recently just accuired our first 45'er they've owned them for some time now and we all agree that it makes a big differance in the driving/handling just between a 40'er & a 45'er! I used to laugh when they'd call an ask was I available to drive one of their 45'ers becauise all their capable drivers were busy and they didn't wanna put any of their "BUMPER CAR DRIVERS in a 45'er" LOL! But it's true, my dad just told me this week end here you drive the 45'er I'm not as comfortable with as you are! When I laughed and told him he was full of BS. He said no seriously son the extra swing/overhang at the rear makes me slightly nervous. And I've been watching you, and you just whip it around like a go-kart! FWIW! BK ;D
PS I take it as a very high compliment for my dad to tell me this as he's in my eyes the best driver I know! I'm good and I know I'm good, but sometimes that's my own problem I get a little over confident! ;D
Kieth, use the bus as much as you can this summer and get used to it. Youll have fun as you do. If you love fishbowls go for it. Alot of us dont have "practical" coaches. there is a very nice one we see in Fla every winter, i know they full time during the winter for sure. There was also one for sale in National bus trader awhile back. We have had our bus for 10 years and if i had changed all the things i wanted to at first we wouldent have had as much fun and i realize later that alot of that stuff dident need to change. But we did realize as someone posted, that 60 mph on the interstate aint fast enough. You should drive her awhile. Good Luck
My reasoning for 60mph being enough is because I figure at 10 tons plus, very few people can influence my driving speed or style, for better or for worse.
When I come up on a bus or semi, I give them plenty of berth. At 10 tons plus, I will lose, no matter who is at fault. Kinda like the brass and clay pots in Aesop's Fables. If the coach driver wants to do 55 in a 70, what am I and my little pickup gonna do, push him?! No, I give them all the berth they want, and politely pass when I have room.
I'm getting the impression that I might be wrong in some of that?
Quote from: WorkingOnWise on April 17, 2007, 07:11:13 PM
My reasoning for 60mph being enough is because I figure at 10 tons plus, very few people can influence my driving speed or style, for better or for worse.
When I come up on a bus or semi, I give them plenty of berth. At 10 tons plus, I will lose, no matter who is at fault. Kinda like the brass and clay pots in Aesop's Fables. If the coach driver wants to do 55 in a 70, what am I and my little pickup gonna do, push him?! No, I give them all the berth they want, and politely pass when I have room.
I'm getting the impression that I might be wrong in some of that?
Not wrong, just rare. Most drivers are not that considerate. My RTS has city gears and peaks at 62mph and I typically hold it at 55 and stay in the right two lanes except where left lanes are designated as slow lanes. I have now driven it about 3000 miles, mostly on wide open Interstates, but also on Interstates through/around several moderately large cities. I have found that it is usually the drivers of cars that show the most attitude about it. Most trucks politely pass and I flash my lights to help them back in, they thank me, and everybody moves on down the road.
One positive note about a 6V92T with city gears is that on-ramps are not generally a problem. ;) Kind of like a Corvette I once had. It was geared low and therefore didn't have the high top speed Vettes are noted for. But it could blow away most others off the line.
There are 2 buses in my life these days. My '57 MCI Courier 96 ( 35 foot, converted), and the Junior Hockey team's '95 MCI 102 D 3,40 foot), that I drive and maintain as a volunteer. We often go to Provincial, State parks, or older private campgrounds with the Courier 96 and we get in to small sites that I know I could not drive the 40 footer 102" without difficulty or scraping the sides on the trees. Lots of space in the coach for us (wife and 2 teen agers). Some people are happy in a 1500 sqare foot house, some need 4000 feet !! The 40 footer could not go some of the places we take the 35'. So you have to consider the kind of camping you want to do...
On the subject of speed, the Courier 96 tops out at 60 mph, which is fine. Slowing down up the hills on a 2 lane gets some drivers following me quite impatient, which is why I am putting a turbo on the 4-71. 60 mph on the freeway is not a problem.
It sure would be nice to be able to afford a 102D3 with the S60 for a conversion, but we would not be able to get in to some of those older camp grounds...
JC
QuoteAnd it will be a Fishbowl, which as everyone knows, is the most beautiful coach. IM Not So HO.
To each his own. Personally, I think the fishbowl looks like an a** on wheels.
IF you need alot of room you should consider a Man Artic Superbus. It is a 60' long articulating bus. It has 2 30' sections and can be broken apart in the middle. Ive seen people use the back half for bunks and toys. They can be found fairly inexpensive, starting at $4500.
Just for fun, where could I see one at?
This is the first one I could find. (I have affiliation with the company)
http://www.easterbussales.com/superbuspowers.htm
Looking at that MAN, I'm pretty sure the engine and drivetrain are in the front half, so the rear end is just a trailer - so it occurs to me you could probably make something like fairly easily (obviously still a huge job, but then so were your original proposals).
My coach is mid-engined, which would make things more straightforward than a rear-engined layout as I imagine yours is. The rear wall on mine is certainly not structural - in fact there is no metal in it at all above the floor level - so you could remove it without concern (in fact, I am removing it on mine as I am currently busy putting a slide-out there).
The reason I suggest making your existing bus articulated is that the MAN type mentioned is clearly a low-speed city-bus, whereas I guess you want something more suitable for driving long distances. There are articulated highway coaches about (eg, the type shown below, which I've posted 'photos of before), but the cost of one of those is likely to be prohibitive.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjumbocruiser.com%2Fimgs%2Fjumbocoach%2Fbest_jumbo.jpg&hash=1f151ca2d99bfea5b3b72c0c6d137b74e835c123)
Jeremy
For those crazy enough to consider it, I think you could build a nice tandem from two Bluebird All Americans, front engine - rear drive, maybe using a stinger type hitch like on a car carrier.
Len
Thanx MedicNovo. I am a newbie and had neverseen one. It would be cool, but I imagine a pain in the butt.
Quote from: Chaz on April 21, 2007, 06:22:30 AM
Thanx MedicNovo. I am a newbie and had neverseen one. It would be cool, but I imagine a pain in the butt.
Chaz,
Looks to me that your a Sr. Member, Not a Newbie......lol
Nick-
Nick,
I'm a senior member ONLY because I'm such a rookie!!!!!!!! ;) lol
(But I do have allot of "Senior Moments"!!! ;D Does that count for anything?? LOLOL)
Se Senor',
Chaz
Hi WorkingOnWise,
I haven't been online for a while and thought I'd respond to your post. Then your query regarding towing a 10-foot trailer. Towing a 10-foot trailer with a long wheelbased tow vehicle is much more difficult than a short wheelbased tow vehicle and longer trailer. No doubt you looked green with such a tow configuration.
I know that this website and bus conversions in general is the "do it your way" crowd. That being said, there's also got to be some logic applied to the things we do. "Personally" speaking ... I think with an $80k budget you could do much better buying a professionally converted coach (possibly Prevost) and spare yourself the investment of time and resources for something that, when complete (if complete), will have (in my opionion) more negatives than positives. I'd compare it to a really extensive home remodeling project to a double-wide. Why?
Despite your love of the coach, it's just not overly logical. Why not keep the coach the length it is and tow a nicely planned trailer and add any necessary re-power you might need to your bus?
Really ... you should take the suggestions of most of the members here.
Jerry H.
Quote from: Jeremy on April 21, 2007, 03:27:39 AM
Looking at that MAN, I'm pretty sure the engine and drivetrain are in the front half, so the rear end is just a trailer - so it occurs to me you could probably make something like fairly easily (obviously still a huge job, but then so were your original proposals).
My coach is mid-engined, which would make things more straightforward than a rear-engined layout as I imagine yours is. The rear wall on mine is certainly not structural - in fact there is no metal in it at all above the floor level - so you could remove it without concern (in fact, I am removing it on mine as I am currently busy putting a slide-out there).
The reason I suggest making your existing bus articulated is that the MAN type mentioned is clearly a low-speed city-bus, whereas I guess you want something more suitable for driving long distances. There are articulated highway coaches about (eg, the type shown below, which I've posted 'photos of before), but the cost of one of those is likely to be prohibitive.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjumbocruiser.com%2Fimgs%2Fjumbocoach%2Fbest_jumbo.jpg&hash=1f151ca2d99bfea5b3b72c0c6d137b74e835c123)
Jeremy
Hi Jeremy,
That may say MAN but I think it is a Neoplan. It looks like the engine is in the rear section; Seattle has several articulated buses with the powered wheels in the rear, and the last snow storm, they were everywhere but straight.
Lee:
If you re-read the post you will see that my comments on the MAN were referring to a bus mentioned in the posts just prior to mine.
Incidentally, if you want to see a good example of an articulated bus out of control, watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdBFi5ug7gE
Jeremy
I've just realised there's loads of bus stuff on YouTube!
There's even a video by a British enthusiast showing some sort of celebration of Plaxton's 100th birthday (Plaxton being the builders of my bus).
If you want to prove how much of a bus nut you are by sitting through 7 minutes of old Plaxtons being driven past, here you are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6eBP8y1pY8
Jeremy
OT.
WOW!!! WHAT is UP with that Russian tunnel??????????????????????? Man. That is wild stuff!!
Oh, and I'll bet that bus driver dirtied himself!! But at least he kept it up!
Chaz
Quote from: Chaz on April 24, 2007, 01:27:09 PM
OT.
WOW!!! WHAT is UP with that Russian tunnel??????????????????????? Man. That is wild stuff!!
Oh, and I'll bet that bus driver dirtied himself!! But at least he kept it up!
Chaz
I hear ya Chaz! Seems like that tunnel has something just before the position of that camear that actually causes accidents! Because most of the time the vehicles were already sliding or swerving before the camear picked them up! BK ;D
I think the story is that the tunnel runs under a river, and water leaks through and causes ice on the road. Supposably that piece of film is just one day's worth of accidents, but I find that hard to believe.
Jeremy
QuoteThis 3150 m long tunnel in Russia is the longest in-city tunnel of Europe. There is a river running over it and water leaks at some points. When the temperature reaches -38 degrees like it did this winter, the road freezes and the result is the attached video taken during a single day with the tunnel camera.
DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on!!!!!! After a couple wrecks -- HELL, even ONE wreck -- wouldn't they "get it"!?!? Flashing lights, salt, flagmen, stop sticks, sheep..... put something out there!! ;D
Oh well, it made for fun viewing. ( Carnage and mayhem CAN be fun!! ) lolol
I like "butt puckering videos,
Chaz
Sheep! ;D That is funny,,I don't care who you are! :D
Quote from: Lee Bradley on April 24, 2007, 10:21:50 AM
That may say MAN but I think it is a Neoplan. It looks like the engine is in the rear section; Seattle has several articulated buses with the powered wheels in the rear, and the last snow storm, they were everywhere but straight.
Yes, those articulated buses with rear engines are terrible in an ice storm. We had an ice storm last winter and the local transit agency had something like 200 buses crashed. The block I work on had 4 articulated buses crashed around it. The rear engine causes the bus to jackknife on the ice.
We have a fair amount of snow and it never causes much issue with articulated buses, but ice is a different story.
Brian
Quote from: Chaz on April 24, 2007, 03:43:42 PM
DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on!!!!!! After a couple wrecks -- HELL, even ONE wreck -- wouldn't they "get it"!?!? Flashing lights, salt, flagmen, stop sticks, sheep..... put something out there!! ;D
Quote from: belfert on April 24, 2007, 08:22:58 PM
We had an ice storm last winter and the local transit agency had something like 200 buses crashed. The block I work on had 4 articulated buses crashed around it.
Sounds like it's not just the Ruskies who can't take a hint! Perhaps we should train sheep worldwide to deploy themselves in front of buses when it drops below freezing
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on April 25, 2007, 01:42:31 AM
Quote from: Chaz on April 24, 2007, 03:43:42 PM
DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on!!!!!! After a couple wrecks -- HELL, even ONE wreck -- wouldn't they "get it"!?!? Flashing lights, salt, flagmen, stop sticks, sheep..... put something out there!! ;D
Quote from: belfert on April 24, 2007, 08:22:58 PM
We had an ice storm last winter and the local transit agency had something like 200 buses crashed. The block I work on had 4 articulated buses crashed around it.
Sounds like it's not just the Ruskies who can't take a hint! Perhaps we should train sheep worldwide to deploy themselves in front of buses when it drops below freezing
The bus crashes here in Minnesota did not result in property damage in some cases. The articulateds mostly jackknifed with no damage. Some of the other buses simply slid into medians and ditches.
There were questions about why service was not suspended due to crashes.
Brian Elfert
Quote from: belfert on April 24, 2007, 08:22:58 PM
Quote from: Lee Bradley on April 24, 2007, 10:21:50 AM
That may say MAN but I think it is a Neoplan. It looks like the engine is in the rear section; Seattle has several articulated buses with the powered wheels in the rear, and the last snow storm, they were everywhere but straight.
Yes, those articulated buses with rear engines are terrible in an ice storm. We had an ice storm last winter and the local transit agency had something like 200 buses crashed. The block I work on had 4 articulated buses crashed around it. The rear engine causes the bus to jackknife on the ice.
We have a fair amount of snow and it never causes much issue with articulated buses, but ice is a different story.
Brian
Seattle snow is different than anything you have seen; we generally only get snow at 32 degrees so you several inches of slush. It filled the treads and is mostly water under the slush so just no traction.