My brother showed me his 04 around 1999 and i have been hooked ever since.
But for those of you who have had them for a while, would you start from scratch now?
There seems to be some incredible deals to be had as people age out of them.
I've owned 50 cars, wrenched on everything, Even spent some time as a Coast Guard boat engineer with the venerable 6-53. SO i have no doubt i could get smart on another machine and do most of my own stunts.
But, the goal is to travel in reliable comfort, not take on another car hobby.
Is that realistic after 70 years? When i first started looking at them there were still a bunch that were 100% original, wet filters, no spring brake, very few had upgraded engines and transmissions.
Now I assume just about everyone out there had an overhaul in the 80's or 90s.
The conventional wisdom on the BNO forum back then was that a 6V92 and Allison was bad idea. But now that seems to be somewhat common.
I have no interest in that. I want the whole 4104 experience.
I hope this post inspires some discussion. I hope my marriage can tolerate my obsession.
I've had 6 buses in my day, and my current love is my 2002 MCI D4500. However, if I was in the market for a smaller, older vintage bus, it would be the 4104. I bought one once for $500 that needed a new clutch and it was 450 miles from home. I saw it once, paid storage fees for 2 years, then let it go to the owner of the storage place. That guy seemed pretty happy to inherit it at the time. I've kicked myself ever since. That was 25 years ago. I think they are fun to drive and they look cool too. If the right deal came along, I would seriously consider it as a project since my current bus is mostly finished. But you said you weren't necessarily wanting another "car" project. I think that if you concentrated on the mechanical end first, then do the interior, you could have a fine machine that you could truly enjoy.
I thought about buying a 4104 and installing a 350 hp DDEC 6l-71 and a Allision but I would have needed to change the rear axle so I passed on it, some times I regret not doing it. I have seen 2-4104's with the series 50 4 stroke engines 350 hp with the electronic Allisions from the RTS buses stuff in the engine compartment, but nothing sounds as good as a DDEC 6L-71
Quote from: Glennman on February 04, 2026, 09:11:42 PMBut you said you weren't necessarily wanting another "car" project. I think that if you concentrated on the mechanical end first, then do the interior, you could have a fine machine that you could truly enjoy.
I'm not talking about doing a conversion myself. THere are few nicely done coaches out there for under $20K. Of course I'd have a lot to do at first. But in general, i don't want a project.
Quote from: uscgphoto@gmail.com on February 05, 2026, 03:20:02 AM
I'm not talking about doing a conversion myself. THere are few nicely done coaches out there for under $20K. Of course I'd have a lot to do at first. But in general, i don't want a project.
We've owned only one bus in our life. The purchase was in 1979. It was and still is our 1953 4104-129 it was bought as an in service charter bus after retiring from Pacific Greyhound Lines. We have performed the entire conversion of it and have also performed a couple major remodels on it thru the decades. It has been all over the N American continent including Canada & Alaska four times. By today's standards it is a small bus with great bones. Yes we still run wet air cleaners, no spring brakes, oem drive train, etc. We admire the passion you verse for the 4104. Do I sound bias? Certainly! Go for it. :^
I've seen your comments on many posts across multiple forums.
I was hoping I'd hear from you. so i could ask specific questions, :-)
Any major overhauls? Major break downs? How many miles a year? Other than regular fluid checks, how often do you get your hands dirty? How much is original?
Major overhaul:
2016 In-frame rebuild. Replaced cylinder head, main & rod bearings, piston & liners. Rebuilt blower.
2019 Clutch & associated parts completely rebuilt.
Major Breakdowns:
1989 fractured/failed one rear cast aluminum suspension support. Replaced both rear supports with later improved stamped steel supports.
2016 catastrophic blower failure.
2024 cylinder head bridge support rod pops out of head sending massive amounts of coolant into engine crankcase. Miraculously recovery was cheap with hidden collateral engine damage to soon appear afterwards.
2024 crankshaft damper hub breaks - contributed to above 2024 breakdown. Replaced both dampers & dampers hub.
2025 Flywheel comes loose - 5 of six sheared flywheel to crank bolts. Recovery was cheap with just bolt replacement, no collateral damage. Contributed to initial 2024 breakdown.
Other smaller breakdowns include multiple tire blowouts & air bellows failures over the decades.
Annual miles:
Early on 5 to 10K. Since 2016 Alaska round trips 12 to 15K.
Hands get bus dirty mostly during above mentions and annual chassis greasing among other things.
We'll guess at 70 to 80% original except for the conversion interior including belly bays. 10% original. Original HVAC heat intact. Oem A/C removed at purchase.
IMHO Careful when you say: "But in general, I don't want a project."
AFAIC any antique or vintage bus if run regularly is a project. HTH
"IMHO Careful when you say: "But in general, I don't want a project."
AFAIC any antique or vintage bus if run regularly is a project. HTH"
I may be wildly misguided but looking at everything out there, with a budget of $20K to enter and $10 K more for backup, i think a 4104 is less likely to consume all of my time and money than anything else i might find at that price point. My other direction is a heavily depreciated 90's class A, something in the Monaco/Beaver zone.
I don't want romance to affect my decision but nothing is as cool as that bus.
It sounds like you surely have the passion to own a bus. There's no comparison between commercial buses and production RVs. The 20 year commercial service life that was designed into our old buses is testament to how over engineered they were still on the road 80 years later. The overhaul and breakdowns I mentioned are far from a complaint as our 04 has been on average over 90+% dependable in the almost half century that we've owned it. Even though it was purchased in it's 26th year since manufactured. Great bones is an understatement. Good luck on your venture & do keep us posted.
There is really nothing wrong with the higher end Class A motor homes like the Country Coach,Foretravel and few others, the entry levels are junk.I been a bus owner since the 60's and loved everything about my Country Coach Magna except all the stupid electronics 1 remote controlled everything on it lol took me two years to figure out how to the TV on.I am looking at buying another but only 36 ft and older model without all the electronic gadget's I can pull a dump valve by hand, I do want slides again but only 2 this time
Quote from: luvrbus on February 06, 2026, 06:45:51 AM
There is really nothing with the higher end Class A motor homes like the Country Coach,Fortravel and few others, the entry levels are junk.I been a bus owner since the 60's and loved everything about my Country Coach Magna except all the stupid electronics 1 remote controlled everything on it lol took me two years to figure out how to the TV on.I am looking at buying another but only 36 ft and older model without all the electronic gadget's I can pull a dump valve by hand, I do want slides again but only 2 this time
Does your Country Coach have the dreaded DEF system?
Glad to find someone that supports the concept of doing some research ahead of getting emotionally attached and writing a check.
If you are realistic goal is to make it road trip worthy, it will be a project, do not believe otherwise. You have lots of mechanical experience so you know how much time and effort can be spent getting an ancient vehicle baselined and into good running order. There are reports of parts like seals and other essential and critical parts simply no longer available. That makes it a project to just find parts, they are around in the secondary market and pop up, hit and miss on eBay, etc. A key difference in sourcing parts for a 75 year old bus is the need and demand are so low there are virtually no aftermarket makers or suppliers. Some ancient automobiles do have enough fans where demand allows parts to be feasibly made and marketed. No such thing for old a bus.
Finding service for any old two stroke engine is increasingly difficult and likely a DIY option. You might be lucky with a reputable 2 stroke mechanic in your area but this is a gift, not an expectation. I don't know the specifics but it is likely 20 years, a generation, of time since heavy duty diesel engine mechanics learned to work on these and far fewer with enough practical shop experience.
It comes down to time and money and passion. Look in the mirror and peer deep into that face to decide if you have these in sufficient supply to take one on. Anyone making odds on someone buying a 4104 that needs a fair amount of work to be trip worthy in 3 years would be glad to take all bets. Sadly, when you scan the antique bus landscape, there are very few running happily down the road littered with the rusting skeletons everywhere.
Last thought. If you genuinely expect to use this for roadtripping on a regular and reliable basis, flush and run.
Last last comment - I've had my 76 MC8 for 8 years now and run it year round and it is as reliable as one can expect. Still, stuff is not always right and am chasing some sort of problem. Nothing has kept me off the road but I can say, just keeping it in good running order takes more time and money than I care to invest as my passion is road tripping and boondocking, not getting greasy or spending time wrenching on the bus. And that is the mechanical side. The house systems often needs something - it is a rolling house with complete mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems. Mine is a rolling power plant too - fully powered by solar, electronics, lithium batteries, and backup generator. Any one component is fine but the totality means there is always work going something. Good luck, make a thorough, informed, and emotionally detached decision and you will be happy in the end.
Quote from: uscgphoto@gmail.com on February 05, 2026, 03:20:02 AM
I'm not talking about doing a conversion myself. THere are few nicely done coaches out there for under $20K. Of course I'd have a lot to do at first. But in general, i don't want a project.
We understand that you don't want to do the conversion yourself, but even if you could find a super converted 4104 like Dan's, if you were lucky, maintaining a 4104 will be an ongoing project in itself. You would have to be very familiar with it in detail because finding a garage that knows it is not so likely nowadays. The 4104 has to be one of the most durable surviving bus models available. Dan is preparing his to go back up to Alaska from Florida pulling a loaded trailer as soon as the weather permits for the sixth time. Sure, he has had some mechanical issues during some of the trips, but he fixed them while on the road because he is a very handy and resourceful individual. :^
Quote from: DoubleEagle on February 06, 2026, 08:03:39 PM
We understand that you don't want to do the conversion yourself, but even if you could find a super converted 4104 like Dan's, if you were lucky, maintaining a 4104 will be an ongoing project in itself. You would have to be very familiar with it in detail because finding a garage that knows it is not so likely nowadays. The 4104 has to be one of the most durable surviving bus models available. Dan is preparing his to go back up to Alaska from Florida pulling a loaded trailer as soon as the weather permits for the sixth time. Sure, he has had some mechanical issues during some of the trips, but he fixed them while on the road because he is a very handy and resourceful individual. :^
I currently own a 1st Gen sprinter. In my town i can find 2 or 3 people who can work on a 2 stroke Detroit but none who have any idea about my 20 year old van. I do ALL my own stunts.
Knowing about every moving part is just part of the fun.
Finding the line between economical, reliable and suitable for real travel is the balancing act.
The sprinter van fits two out of three. We did 3 cross country trips with two teens and that was about enough.
I'm 65, retired, I have one shot at getting smart on the next RV so i'm able to keep it going when i'm 75.
And maybe a 97 Monaco is it. But that Detroit is calling me.
Quote from: windtrader on February 06, 2026, 04:25:56 PM
lad to find someone that supports the concept of doing some research ahead of getting emotionally attached and
There are reports of parts like seals and other essential and critical parts simply no longer available. That makes it a project to just find parts, they are around in the secondary market and pop up, hit and miss on eBay, etc. A key difference in sourcing parts for a 75 year old bus is the need and demand are so low there are virtually no aftermarket makers or suppliers. Some ancient automobiles do have enough fans where demand allows parts to be feasibly made and marketed. No such thing for old a bus.
The house systems often needs something - it is a rolling house with complete mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems. Mine is a rolling power plant too - fully powered by solar, electronics, lithium batteries, and backup generator. Any one component is fine but the totality means there is always work going something. Good luck, make a thorough, informed, and emotionally detached decision and you will be happy in the end.
I would love to see a list of the most unobtainable parts, and unsolvable problems. That would help a lot in figuring this out.
The house systems for me is the exciting part. The technology has come so far and gotten so cheap. And a bus has empty space in all the right places.
Quote from: windtrader on February 06, 2026, 04:25:56 PM
Finding service for any old two stroke engine is increasingly difficult and likely a DIY option. You might be lucky with a reputable 2 stroke mechanic in your area but this is a gift, not an expectation. I don't know the specifics but it is likely 20 years, a generation, of time since heavy duty diesel engine mechanics learned to work on these and far fewer with enough practical shop experience.
I'm here to have my ideas challenged, i have very thick skin. But from my research, maintaining the engine is the easy part.
The design was for them to be rebuilt by bus mechanics in the shop or on the side of the road.
About all the parts you can buy for the 6L-71 are all aftermarket parts made off shore,BMW owns the rights to the Detroit 2 stroke engines if you want sticker shock buy OEM parts. I have been pricing out parts for a rebuild on 6L-71T . James wants all OEM parts a set of liners and pistons @$1610.00 x 6= $9660.00 and a Re-con head is $3500.00, Detroit Diesel doesn't sell inflame kits you buy each friggin part. I am not happy with Detroit, I have been a battle for 2 years that is just now ending over a set of liners made offshore that pops the top off the liners, the box says made in USA and the liners say made in China. Dan is a lucky camper his 6-71 blew close to home, those engines will take the top of piston out or break a liner. Weigh your options you can spend more on a bus that you paid for it.@ 65 years old go for Monaco with the 8.3 Cummins it a durable engine and Cummin will work on it when needed and the chassis is off the shelf parts no chasing parts and the engine oil can be bought at Walmart no chasing the CD/ SD 2 -40w engine oil. I love old buses, but when I turned 65, I started going a different route because of the cost of owning a bus
With over 5000 4104s produced, it is the one antique bus running the roads where parts aren't as hard to find as other models. We have not ever not been able to find the parts we need. You asked what parts are mostly unobtainable - how about the engine rad fan hub or the rear window assembly. We're running a fan hub that is from a 92 series setup. Modification is fun. As far as the two stroke sound and smell - well that right there will never be able to be duplicated. Our favorite breakdown was an 11 day event in the Alaska Kenai. Just so happens it was among the best 11 days of our first 5 month AK journey.
Thanks for the kind words Walter.
Quote from: dtcerrato on February 07, 2026, 07:15:16 AM
With over 5000 4104s produced, it is the one antique bus running the roads where parts aren't as hard to find as other models. We have not ever not been able to find the parts we need. You asked what parts are mostly unobtainable - how about the engine rad fan hub or the rear window assembly. We're running a fan hub that is from a 92 series setup. Modification is fun. As far as the two stroke sound and smell - well that right there will never be able to be duplicated. Our favorite breakdown was an 11 day event in the Alaska Kenai. Just so happens it was among the best 11 days of our first 5 month AK journey.
Thanks for the kind words Walter.
I have 2 of the drives from the 8v92 military engines, I had 4 but used 2 on the 4104,you are just lucky Dan I have a crank from a 4104 6-71 the bad coupling snapped the end of the crankshaft off and took the radiator out too. Freightliner in Needles threw their hands up on the repair and had me do the repairs for them. It did tick me off how much the owner was charged by Freightliner and I did the all the work and bought the parts. I got paid but they added 60% to my bill and I thought that was wrong, I never did anymore for the dealer when they would call I would say I am too busy
THis is turning into a pretty good discussion.
I would definitely want to avoid ever having to do a rebuild. I think choosing the right bus with the right history, and regular oil analysis, that can be avoided. But the risk is not a deal breaker.
The scarier thing is more about some tiny failure point that has gone unnoticed for 70 years and fails at the worst possible time.
In the 70,000 miles we put on the SPrinter in 3 years we've had two major breakdowns on vacation- of course vacation breakdown are a lot worse than cruising while retired break downs.
I cannot afford a really new RV with dealer support so anything I do carries some risk.
I'm wondering if the risk with this coach can be mitigated to compare with the risk attached to a 97 Monaco?
But damn, the more i learn about the 4104 the more i just want one because it's cool.
Totally agree with Clifford. There are a lot of quality Monaco or Country Coach units out there with low miles and modern engines that are still supported by Cat or Cummins, even going back into the late '90's vintage. What ever you paid for one would be cheaper than a breakdown in a vintage Detroit on the side of the road. Obsolete parts availability and no vintage 2 stroke mechanics anymore. I asked a Freightliner dealership in a large central Washington city a while back if they knew of a 2 stroke mechanic anywhere and they didn't even know what I was talking about. I Love the old tin too and have owned quite a few of them and can fix most everything myself but being almost 80 yrs old the thought of pulling a trans or LH starter on the side of the road anymore just doesn't turn me on. My 4106 is as nice as they get for early 60's vintage and I have a lot of spare parts but I plan my trips carefully "just in case".
"The scarier thing is more about some tiny failure point that has gone unnoticed for 70 years and fails at the worst possible time."
In the last 47 years of 4104-129 ownership lots of scary things have happened.
The more recent tiniest thing to grow into something much bigger again & again for the year that followed was when a four valve head bridge support stud popped out of the water jacket it was sealing to dump massive amounts of coolant into the crankcase - in less than 10 minutes there was ten gallons of 64% antifreeze on top of the five gallons of oil.
From the driver's seat we could feel the crankshaft counterweights and piston bottoms slamming the milkshake in the crankcase.
We speculate that's what caused the dampers hub to break in short order on the same trip right after the support stud was replaced. Then a year later with an AK round trip run under our belt on our return in middle Canada, we almost lost a flywheel to 5 of 6 broken crankshaft bolts. Again we suspect collateral damage from the earlier crankcase milkshake.
We always thought the worst thing that could happen would be loosing power or brakes on a steep bridge without shoulder lanes.
From past experiences the very worst breakdown is the one that you play over & over in your head before or if it ever happens. Just take it in stride and deal with it as it comes step by step.
The overruling thought is the long history of driving our bus and knowing it is as dependable as it's been thru all the great years of memories and experiences.
It has and continues to be the spice of our lives.
I may not be a great person to respond to this for any number of reasons, but I do like to participate on the forum so here's my perspective. I'm 71 btw and going strong. A few years back I bought a bus, in 2019 I think it was and planned to be using it in 5 years. There has been a bit of slippage in the schedule, so it's looking more like a 7 year project but that's still acceptable. But here's the thing, you really need to honestly determine what your needs and wants are before picking a bus. I had wanted to do a conversion for maybe a couple of decades but was put off by the need to do a roof lift. I am 6'1" and like to wear a Stetson, sometimes inside. So this became a major consideration and it took a long time for buses with enough headroom to become available at a price I could justify and afford. It had to be a cash buy and I needed some way to finance the build. So I was looking for a bargain with headroom and it took me a couple years to find it. I went with a '96 MCI 102DL3 but the point here is that headroom was a defining requirement which meant that the earlier buses would not qualify. I also soon made a 4 stroke engine one of the requirements simply because I don't want to have to deal with the drivetrain any more than is absolutely necessary, but I am also very unwilling to part with money to pay anyone else to work on it. That meant it had to have a great reputation for reliability and the Series 60 looked like one of if not *the* best choice.
So my focus was minimal maintenance requirements, headroom, an extended service life and ease of conversion. True, I could probably have bought one that was already converted but we've been socking it away into retirement funds and I had no intention of inhibiting that program. We are now reaching the cusp where we tilt over into actual retirement and start making use of those funds. I intend to make this the last winter when we are not free to escape the cold. The plan is coming together.
This probably doesn't help you with your decision. FWIW unless I'd been a diesel mechanic working on those old engines I'd hesitate. It's not that they are complex, I'm reasonably familiar with how they are built and do not doubt my ability to rebuild one if I had to. It's more that I don't want to have to. So if I was considering one I'd want to run every test imaginable to get one in the best condition possible. Same for the entire bus for that matter. They are old and have seen a lot of miles. I'd also have to seriously think about something newer and or something with less miles on it. Sometimes you can find a deal.
Jim