BCM Community

9/23/08:  Hi again folks. I started this thread a while back and wanted to revisit again.  You will see my latest post on page 2.

Jim

>>>>>>original post>>>>>>>>>>>>


Hi folks.  As most of you know, I have been working to get my air to air (charge air cooler) to put cooler air into the engine on long pulls. 

Since I last posted on the subject, I have installed a larger air to air and ducted the air down so that I can pull in outside air and am not fighting the pressure from the huge radiator fan (recall that I installed my cooler on the passenger side as there was no room on the radiator side). 

I am using two large electrical fans, and it looks like they don't move enough air for a long hard pull (don't start in on the two dogs comments <grin>).  I will re-hookup my mister system, but that might not do the job.

So, I may have to go to a hydraulic fan (no way to run a belt drive).  That is probably not too bad, since I need a hydraulic pump for my jacks and don't want to make any modifications to the PS pump circuit (safety).

Where is a good source to pick up the parts?  Would love to get a system that has an electric valve so that I can run on the electric fans part of the time and then kick in the hydraulic fan when I need it.  Pump will have to be a belt driven unit, as I don't think I have a way to drive it off the Series 60.

Jim,
   Check your email for a link to a place that has a lot of surplus hydraulic stuff.  Jack

Hey Jim,

    I've found that Grainger has a good selection of Hydraulic Motors (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?operator=searchProductBySubCat&segment=Pneumatics+%26+Hydraulics&family=Motors&subcat=Hydraulic+Motors) and Pumps (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?operator=searchProductBySubCat&segment=Pneumatics+%26+Hydraulics&family=Pumps&subcat=Hydraulic+Gear+Pumps) (as well as accessories: Hoses (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?operator=searchProductBySubCat&segment=Pneumatics+%26+Hydraulics&family=Hoses&subcat=Hydraulic+General-Purpose+Hose+Assy.), Valves (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/searchcategory.jsp?xi=xi&category=%2FPneumatics+%26+Hydraulics%2FValves), Filters (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/searchcategory.jsp?xi=xi&category=%2FPneumatics+%26+Hydraulics%2FFiltration), and other components (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/searchcategory.jsp?xi=xi&category=%2FPneumatics+%26+Hydraulics%2FSystem+Components).)

Hope this helps...

Cheers!

-Tim

What you want is already available and you can probably find it for little or nothing. GM busses ran their A/C condenser fan with a hydraulic motor. The pump was belt driven and had an electric clutch. I will try to take a photo of mine and post it by this weekend. I might know where one is but I will have to ask the owner if he will give it to me.

Laryn

Hey Jim

Is that 60 series running hot?
Or are you looking for more performance. (cooler air )

"I am using two large electrical fans, and it looks like they don't move enough air for a long hard pull "   ???

Hydraulics are a pretty good deal. Easy to direct the power. Northern Hydraulics sells most needed components, along with McMaster Carr, Grainger, Surplus sales, are all good suppliers(please everybody list your most cost effective source).  

Off the top of my head.
Open flow system, close the return valve and direct the flow through the bypass, flow control, motor circuit.

A Pressurized, or normally closed system, has the bypass pressure first, always producing pressure. (and taking horsepower)

Clutch operated pump directly plumbed to fan drive hydraulic fan motor would be easiest.

On a different view, water carries 10 times the conduction value. What size and condition is your radiator and fan drive on that side.

I thought 4 strokes put out less heat (more efficient) than the 2 strokes.

I probably missed the earlier post.  "As most of you know, I have been working to get my air to air (charge air cooler) to put cooler air into the engine on long pulls. "

I plan on a 4 stroke in our Eagle and would like more info.

Thanks
Bill

Years ago, a neighbor of mine put a hydraulic fan on his bus and after replacing the fan motor (fan mounted directly to the motor) twice he was advised that he had to have a motor designed for that application because of the end thrust on the motor bearings. He bought a motor from Eagle that they used on their hydraulic fan drives that was satisfactory.

Bill, the engine runs cool even under the hard pulls

My problem is the air to air cooler (from the turbo to the intake manifold).  The air seems to get pretty darn hot on long pulls where the turbo boost is up to 25 PSI.  I put one of my temperature sensors on the tubing and it looks like it could be feeding over 200 degree into the engine.

Smarter folks than me (most? :)) say that is not good on the engine and really affects power.  I am not sure how to reconcile the same type of thing on a 6V92 that has no cooler and feeds the hot air into the blower where a water to air "cooler" is used to "extract" heat.  I can't believe that the air is much under 200 degrees when the engine is loaded.  Maybe the 6V92 does not care.  Never-the-less, cooler air has to be the goal

Air to air on trucks is out in front of the radiator and gets all the ram affect.

Stan, thanks for the heads-up on the thrust load.  Quite obvious, but I would not have thought about it!

Laryn, that system sounds exactly what I was looking for.  Keep me posted.  If nothing else, I might try the GMC board and see if someone might have the hardware.

Thanks for all the help (as usual!!!)

Jim

What happened to the original belt drive for the A/C condenser on that side-or do you have something now installed in the way?  You might also try reversing the fans and suck the air from the inside and blow it out.  I realize that it is hot from the engine and radiator, but the air coming off the radiator is still a whole lot cooler than the 350 degree air coming from the turbo.  I know with trans coolers, this is one way to also do it.  Good Luck, TomC

Jim: Apparently you followed all the electric fan properties discussed about a year ago (the good, the bad and the ugly). Involved in research on cooling, maybe you can give me some advice. Working on income tax this past week I came across a receipt for two large electric fans (big enough to cool an 8V71). Do I write those off as R&D or as a charitable donation? <grin>

Jim,

   I know you have your heart set on an air charged system but I also know that you are a very good fabricator (in the best sense)

  Couple of things
     1. You seem to be getting a large radiant heat transfer to your intake... Can you insulate the whole intake side..increase the air flow thru the in
        the engine compartment. etc.
     2. Have you considered (probably) taking an intercooler from a cat 3406 (a bolt on) and adapting it to your series 60.

   Just some thoughts.

  Skip

Hi Jim ,

If I was going to go with a Hydraulic fan drive I think I would fine a "wet kit" that someone has taken of there truck. I am sure it would bolt right on the side of your 10sp. No more belts or brakets, I think that would be the way to go.

FWIW, Duane 

Most of posts are missing point of why Air to Air cooler needed.
Turbo compressed air is at must higher temperature then what it took in ambient temp air.
Always use fresh (coolest) ambient to cool down "expanded" turbo's compressed air to achieve most oxygen per square inch before enter combustion chamber to achieve highest power stroke. Otherwise turbo is doing very little or none boast of power.

The purpose of Turbo is to add more Oxygen as well other gases into combustion chamber.

My suggestion is to reinstall engine's radiator to allow room to install air to air radiator. The fan is already there & frontal area of engine radiator is made for it.

You may have to switch to right side to allow more room due engine's offset to accommodate the thicker set up.....either way will be allot of work. Whatever ways you choose is going to be allot of work. Wish you well.

Electric fan to equal the cfm flow of mechanical fan will result of using more engine's power to run alternator harder than direct mechanical connection.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry

  Jerry,
    I agree but looking at what little I could see on his web sight documentation it appears that right after the turbo there is a 90 degree bend with the pressure side of the turbo running right above the exhaust manifold. From there I can't tell but there maybe some more 90 degree bends before it finally gets to the intake manifold. Cool air ups the efficiency granted but where to cool the air is what I was
wondering about.

   Just my thoughts and it's snowing out side so I could be all wet.

    Skip

Stan - I would call it unearned compensation and send 2D's a 1099 - let him explain to the IRS what he did with 'em!

Jim;
      I know you had wanted to take as much heat load off the radiator as possible but how about mounting the charge air cooler back on the radiator as it was mounted on the truck? I had done alot of research before deciding to put the radiator & fan in the rear like some stick & glue's do. I had talked to Jerry Russell recently about his Eagle & series 60 with radiator, charge air cooler & a/c condenser all mounted in the rear and he tells me it's working great with no heat problems etc. I'm not suggesting that you move it to the rear but if it runs good in the rear with no heating problems I would expect it to be even cooler running on the regular Eagle side mounted radiator hole (the charge air cooler). Just some thoughts.
                                                    Ray

Jim;
  Look for some one in your area that scrapes garbage trucks, You can take the whole system off of it.
they use a larger stering pump and tie in the hyd fans. you would have the pump, motors,fans, resevour, valving,oil cooler and mounting brackets. would be a nice install on your coach.

Hope this helps

Don

Jim, would it be possible to have a new charge air cooler custom made that will fit with your radiator in the present configuration?
   Tom C had his built to his specs-
Just thinking of options.......I want to add one to my bus also and remove the aftercooler on my 8V71TA

Jim, I have a pump from a Gillig belt driven. And to sell on here I would ask 50.00 for it. I also have a motor I think. Gillig uses a solinoid valve about 350.00 I think. Ouch. They used a 28 inch fan so it is big.  Tom Y

Jim,B&B coach installs the after cooler next to the rad where the batteries are on drivers side call Gary and he will be glad to help you he putting a 60s in right now in a model 10

Again, WOW.  I have had off-line emails, phone calls and all of these great posts.  As we all know, this is such a great community!!!

As was pointed out, the engine is offset in 05 and 10 model Eagles.  It is a MAJOR job to put an air to air on the radiator side.  Even if you can get the space, routing the 4 inch diameter tubing around the radiator would be almost impossible.  It might be possible to put it "behind" the radiator, but I would do that only as a last choice, because it would still be a huge project.

My present air to air is very large (out of a Peterbuilt cabover) and should do the job if I can get air through it.

Tom C.  With the Series 60 in there, the miter box and belt drive to the AC is long gone.  Just no reasonable way to get a belt drive over there.

Stan, I am not a tax expert, so can't comment :D

For the rest of our trip (currently in IA), I will play with the mister system that is in the bus now (will need some minor modification.  When we pull the big hill to our house (several miles of 6% grade), I will see if I need to go to the hydraulic system.

Again, thanks to all who have given me some good things to think about.

Jim

Here are the photos of the hydraulic operated fan and pump for my GM condenser. I thought the pump had an electric clutch on it but I was mistaken. I am going to scrap this one eventually but it will be awhile before I get to this part of my project. I know where one was that is already out of a bus, I will check on it if you are interested. I don't know the condition of it though.

Barn Owl, the GMC system sounds like my best option if I go the hydraulic route. 

I would like to find such a system.  If I understand what was said before, the system can be activated by an electric signal which would be ideal for my application.  That would allow me to use the electric fans and then kick in the big fan for the hills.

What is the fan diameter. The best diameter for my exchanger is 24 inches.

For the near future, I have installed a temporary mister system using  an agricultural spray head.  We will finish our trip next week and hit the "big hills" when the temperatures will be in the 70s if the weather forecast is correct.  Not the worst test in the world, but it will give me some idea of how the mister system will work.

Jim

I first posted this subject earlier this year.  I had planned to start a new thread, but this one has some very good information.

Since I have posted, I have been able to pick up the actual air inlet temperature that the DDEC sees (via my SilverLeaf VMSpc).   Under reasonably stable conditions, it agrees pretty close with my system thermister that I installed quite some time ago.

However, under hard pull conditions, it really shows some pretty high inlet temperatures (over 200 degrees and the ambient is only in the 80s) that the thermister does not see (it lags the system a bit and is measuring surface temperature on one of the air tubes).

So, I have to put this hydraulic fan drive higher on the "to do" list.

I am re-visiting the subject to see if anyone has any additional thoughts.

Here is a summary of the application:

1)  I have the air to air on the passenger side, as there is no room on the driver side (recall the engine is offset to the left)
2)  I have installed a rather large air to air heat exchanger and have 4 electric fans.  It does the job just fine for all but he hard, long climbs.
3)  There is no reasonable way to run a belt drive
4)  I want a system that has some sort of electronic switching device so that I can engage it only when it is needed (I do not need a fancy control system). 

Originally, I had wanted to avoid using the power steering pump.  Maybe I should have a more open mind.  Is there a "two stage"  (two systems built into a singe housing) pump that will fit the Series 60 drive flange mount?  That would allow me to isolate the PS from the "accessory" applications.  If not, how big of an issue is it to run a second system in the PS system?

Thanks for any additional thoughts.

Jim

I run a 60/741 in my eagle01. I have both mounted in the original spot with the air to air in front of the rad. Run a 31" hydro fan with a 28GPM motor. I belt drive a 28GPM pump off the crank (3 belts) with a 10 gal resv and a air to oil cooler (12V fan). Only problem I have had was in trying to use a power steering pump to run it. Pump failed - went to a larger pump, mounted on same pad as PS pump. Also failed.  Went to a belt drive 18GPM pump. Also failed!! Now have a 28GPM pump and has worked well for several years and 50k miles. No heat issues now. Just my way!
JimH

Jim, wait and take a look at Mark Renner Eagle at the Branson rally the last I heard he was going to be there he has success  making the electric fans work for cooling and the air to air charger.Cat has electric fans that would work but they are 24v .  Baylff another Eagle owner bought his from these folks www.electricfanengineering.com they have both electric and hyd  good luck

Jim; I have a s 60 in my 15 set at 550 hp the air to air is on the drivers side beside the radiator it measures 15"w x 34" tall we removed the large Eagle radiator and install a smaller one 34"x38" 8 core and made a fan shroud because I did not want to deal with the hydraulics.I am positive you know that bigger is not always better for air to air they need to be designed to move so many cubic in per minute it sounds to me like you have to much air surface on your setup allowing the air to heat. If you like post or email the model and serial number of your engine and I will find out for you the correct cubic inch you need another cause for the temp rise could be the air filter.The more you add in the way of equipment the more problems you create for yourself  have a great day

Just a suggestion- mount the electric fans on the outside of the fan (have to create spacers probably) and then use a hydraulic fan on the inside for really hard pulls.  Or just get rid of the electric fans all together and go with the hydraulic fan-you'll never get the power out of electric that you can with hydraulic. 
Then to drive the hydraulic, use the PTO off the transmission with a hot shift.  This is a PTO specifically designed for automatics that is always engaged, but has a clutch pack to engage and disconnect the pump. 
Two ways to do it- retain the electric fans remounted on the outside of the cooler, then mount the hydraulic fan on the inside.  When extra cooling is needed, engage the hydraulic fan.  Or just switch to the hydraulic fan exclusively.  It could run at a low speed- say 5gpm- then switch it to 20gpm for hard pulls.
While 200 degrees sounds high, that still isn't overly high for turbo inlet.  But getting it down further will make for denser air.  Do you get any smoking on hard pulls?  From your temp readings, what should happen is that you start the hill and no smoke and as you progress and things heat up, some smoke appears.  Does this happen?  If not, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  Course the easy thing to do would be to slow down and catch the next lower gear and just waltz a bit more gently over the hill-but that ain't no fun!  Good Luck, TomC

Meant to say mount the fans on the outside of the intercooler-sorry.  TomC

How about putting fans on both sides of the inter-cooler?  Only turn on both when needed for those hard pulls. 

I don't know if I would be too worried about the inlet temps you have.  Unless the DDEC is turning down the HP, just keep on truckin. 

Another hydraulic system is just another possible problem/leak.

Good luck
Don 4107

165 degrees should be his max depending on what hp rating he has I just went over I 70 through the Ike tunnel and mine never got above 145 at 60 mph the only place i saw mine go to 168 was in the Mojave desert when it was a 122 degrees outside    have a great day

MMa2,

I know that the air temp out of a intercooler is not regulated in any way.  I guess the min temp out would be the ambient temp.  That would be an enormous aftercooler to even approach that and impractical, I know.  What I am getting at is "what was the delta temp across your intercooler when you registered that 145 degrees"?   You measured 168 out with an ambient of 122 so could I say that your cooler reduces the outlet temp by 45 degrees below ambient under the same loading?  That seems intuitive to me.  I've been fooled before, I should note.

The compressor/blower in the inlet to a 2 stroke adds heat to the air but I don't know how much.  The After cooler, like the intercooler, reduces the air temp but by how much?  I talked with a DD consultant/engineer and he said that the data I was requesting did not exist except in a engineering lab and he didn't have access to that type of data.  He did volunteer that the MAXIMUM air temp at the charge inlet was 450 degrees(or maybe 425) and that at that temp the engine would quit.  He added that the thing would be dropping to its knees long before it reached that temp.  I hope to shout!

The interesting thing about that to me was that reducing the intake air temp at the valve had a big effect on the power and efficiency of the engine and yet the stock DD setup is to have the turbo dump directly into the blower.  How much power is being missed form a TA engine on a sustained hard pull by not cooling the intake air through an intercooler?

Thanks,

John

Hi Jim,
Not having seen your rig or knowing what it looks like inside, is there any way you could use a miter gear and a belt arrangement, or a combination of that and a few U joints to do your fan without hydraulics?
I have a thing against hydraulic fans... yes they certainly work, but they are messy, use LOTS of engine room space, require a big oil tank AND a BIG radiator of their own, and are at least 30% less efficient that a straight gear or belt drive.  I had one on my first bus and eventually re-arranged things to use a miter drive plus belt and U joint shaft... it was a wonderful improvement and REALLY clean install.
Maybe I could visit and give you some ideas.  I HATE hydraulic fan drives!!!!!  :)

Gary

Hi Jim, I have a complete hydraulic fan unit salvaged from an orion 6V92.  Belt drive pump, 26"fan, motor, mount,reservoir, and thermostatic  control.  I can send some pictures if you like.  $XXX complete plus shipping.



Email me for more details.

Dick Egler

Sorry, MAC has a limit on items for sale prices. But maybe Jim will email!

Your Friendly Moderator -- Dallas

Jim, This pump is the same as on my L10, direct drive. It has 1 inlet and a primary port ( PS ) and a secondary port ( Hyd fan ). The fan will run if intake air gets to 150 or water temp of 165. I find it hard to agree with the 30 percent hp loss to run. But I do not know, I hear little change in the engine RPM if I turn it on.   Tom Y

Another

Wow!  I thought I got good input the first time around and it got even better this time.

Boogie, I too dislike hydraulic, and that is why I have been dragging my feet (that and $$$ plus time).  There is just no practical way to put a mechanical drive in there.

Dick, in the next couple of days (two days later than I wanted to be at an FMCA rally in Little Rock), I will drop you a note, or you can write to me at:  jim at rvsafetysystems dot com.

Don, I currently have two fans on outside and two on the inside (four total).  Run them all all of the time.  They are supposed to be pretty good fans.  They do a good job on all but the big hills.

MM2S, that sounds a lot like the factory Series 60 setup (side by side).  I have a hydraulic jack in the bay ahead of the radiator.  Could probably put an air to air in there if I work at it.  I am not too inclined to reduce my present radiator size (I paid a lot of money to get the best technology and it really works.  My serial number would not help much, since the engine has been reset to 475.  I had not thought of having too much surface area???

Tom C, I really like your solution, but it sounds like cubic dollars.  I do not get any smoke on the big hills.  However, I pull back on the throttle a bit to keep the air temperature down.

I have still not given up on my misters.  That is a cheap way to cheat.  What playing around I have done, it looks like it helps quite a bunch.

Now for one added piece of information.   I have changed from pulling a Durango to a Dodge 3/4 ton 4X4 service truck with utility box and large (and heavy -- I built it heck for stout).  The truck without supplies weighs 7500 pounds and I have probably added 1000 more.   That would put me at about 45K.  I sure have noticed the difference on this trip.

It is sure interesting to see all the comments on what is acceptable air temperature.  We all know that cooler is better, but we don't seem to have good factory information.  I have the OEM Series 90 book and it does not address the issue.  I am not sure how the OEMs go about designing the air to air.

Keep the great responses coming.

Jim

Heat soak is the issue here.  And the answer is:     http://www.aquamist.co.uk/ (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/)

Water injection just after the turbocharger and before the intercooler.  You "normally" would not put water injection there, but I don't think it would be good for the blower if you put just up stream.  I have water injection on my One Lap of America race car.  What a HUGE difference.  The water (or water/methanol mix) is injected into the intake manifold only under boost, using spray jets that atomize the water.  The heat instantly vaporizes the water.  That heat energy required to vaporize the water effectively reduces the intake charge air temps.  This is not new technology, but the computers that you use to control the volume, pressure and triggers are now high tech.  $800 for my car's system.  They are perfect for diesel engines which see huge charge air temps due to the high boost levels.

I was able to install lighter, smaller intercoolers on my car but still have 70 more hp due to leaner fuel air ratio and advanced ignition timing. 

These systems do and will work for our engines.  And because of the blower, aftercooler and airbox, the vapor will have longer to vaporize which makes the system even more efficient.

It would be very easy to install a thermistor in a junk/spare/extra airbox cover to get an accurate temp of the charge air.  Then you can see before and after differences in temps.

A water injection system will help a non turbo, supercharged DD engine, just not as much.  The blower doesn't create nearly as much heat because the charge air pressure is much lower.  But it would still help!  It'll even reduce the black smoke from large injectors as the still vaporizing water effectively increase the cylinder pressures during compression ignition.  Think "steam engine".

BTW, these systems were used in airplanes as far back as WW2.  Piston engines, not jets.

Mark

Hey Jim

   Think about the KISS method.
   Think Mechanical 3406 Cat.
   I'm sorry, but i just had to do this.

Catskinner!
Sonnie & Patti Gray
72 0/5 Eagle 3406 Cat
Pottsboro, Texas

Maybe I'm way off base but those temps are not any where near the top.  I understand that you would like to see them lower and for simplicities sake I think water injection may be your best option for many reasons.  To give an idea of what high intake temps are I'll share what I know.  I have a 3412 cat twin turbo industrial power unit without any kind of charge cooler on it.  Its rated at 650hp.  After a good long day running at a decent load it will be running a temp of around 280 to 300 consistently on the intake air.  I'm not saying that is a good thing only that Cat designed and rated this engine accordingly.  Add a aftercooler and a little more fuel and cat rates it at 880hp and temps 100 degrees cooler on the intake, still nearly as hot as what your experiencing.  Now onto the pros of water injection.  When you inject water into the intake before your intercooler you create a cleansing effect that cleans everything down stream.  All that oil residue in the intercooler that over time causes more and more of an insulating effect is no longer a problem.  On any diesel that has an egr valve you will clean the carbon build up out of the intake.  This is a big problem on certain engines!  If you inject enough water you will cool the intake by at least as much as your intercooler.  So you get the benefit of a way cooler charge wich equals more efficiency, the benefits of cleaning your intake whenever your running and increased efficiency from steam combustion.  But wait there is more.  A 50/50 mix of water and methanol can increase cooling capabilities and performance even more and never raise your exhaust temperature in fact it will usually run cooler.  A system like this is easy to build.  Especially in a bus where you have 120v power available.  I've done some research and am in the process of installing one on a 8v71n.  I found a industrial airless paint sprayer that will deliver 12gpm at 2500psi.  With a turboed engine you can set it up with a boost switch that is adjustable, so when you reach a certain psi the pump kicks in and you get some water.  There is something completely new to think about.

Q,

Your info sounds very interesting.  I can't dispute a thing you say and I am prone to believe it all.  My uncle was a flight engineer on Flying Fortresses in WWII.  He said that the water injection was used to cool the charge air so that the engine would take more spark advance and you could lean out the mix that was always set rich on aircooled engines.  The father of a girl I dated in HS said that P51s had a throttle position called Max Military Power.  To reach it you had to hit the throttle with the heal of your hand and break through a pin.  Any plane that came home with the pin broken got a new engine and the old was rebuilt.  That was his lie I am repeating.

Is it true that the meth doesn't preignite on the compression?  That part sounds shaky to me on a D.

You mentioned 12 gallons per minute into the intake.  I have been up a lot of hills that took more than 10 minutes.  I think few carry enuf water to make the entire hill.  Does it take that much?  For what displacement engine?  2 and 4 cycles need the same?

Thank you very much for sharing all that.  A lot of food for thought.

John

Quote from: Catskinner! on September 23, 2008, 08:42:06 PM
Hey Jim

   Think about the KISS method.
   Think Mechanical 3406 Cat.
   I'm sorry, but i just had to do this.

Catskinner!
Sonnie & Patti Gray
72 0/5 Eagle 3406 Cat
Pottsboro, Texas

Man I just love that ol' chicken haulin' way of think'n'!
As I have said before and will again!

"Walk'n that CAT, and Kick'n' that Possum, Chicken Haulin's Totally Awesome!     Whoop, Whoop pass'n thu! Cluck cluck chicken truck boop, boop!"

Now for those of you who aren't/weren't truckers "chicken trucks" are the big ol' shiney chromed out and lights everywhere trucks that are usually found out in the left lane. (or try'n to get out there!)
And "rooster cruzers" are the really fast ones that are changing states while regular chicken trucks are changing lanes! LOL! Whoop whoop!

;D  BK  ;D

Lots of good information continues.

When I mentioned misters, I was talking about spraying water ON the air to air to facilitate better heat rejection.  I had not thought about water INJECTION into the intake air.  Probably won't go that direction, but the discussion is very interesting.

I am really interested in permissible air inlet temperatures.  I had been told that the air to air should keep the intake air at a max of 50 degrees over ambient (probably a design "rule" that has some operating conditions attached to it -- and allowing for higher temperature for extreme operating conditions).  That would suggest a maximum air temperature of perhaps 160 degrees.  However, I am hearing much higher temperatures.  I am sure that the engine design partly dictates max air temperature.

Sonnie, we will continue our discussion at the Eagle Rally  ;D ;D ;D

Jim

Now you are the right track Jim with the 50 degrees differential actuality it is 52.7 degrees.I hated giving up my $2200.00 radiator also but a 4ftx4ft x 7inch core wasn't needed to cool the s60 they take the heat out by turbo boost not like a 2 stroke does with water.Move it to the radiator side in front or on the side of the radiator and let the engine fan do the work and stop trying to work against it a losing battle with auto electric fans    have a great day

Jim;

I don't have info for the 60 but I can give you some info for a 6V92 ta 305hp at 2100rpm under load, turbo out temp 330.4 aftercooler out temp 210.5 this is with a three pass jacket water after cooler 168 deg water temp and193 deg oil temp. The turbo we used was a TV7511 with a 1.08 hh the boost pressure was 29psi.

I like the hyd fan set up. onelapper I would suspect that you see more cooling and hp from the methanol than the water injection. not saying water dose not work, but consider that you run aluminum pistons in your hot rod and diesels run cast iron or steel pistons and sleeves. Water and steel does not work well together if you don't believe me look an engine that has blown a head gasket. It will pit the piston the head and the cylinder.

You get more hp and cooling with methanol or alcohol then any other add on liquid.

Don

Jim, The temps I gave for the fan to run are on a Gillig with the Cummins L10. I used the same senors. I would not think a DD was much different.  Tom Y

Quote from: Don Fairchild on September 24, 2008, 04:59:55 PM
Water and steel does not work well together if you don't believe me look an engine that has blown a head gasket. It will pit the piston the head and the cylinder.

Don

Consider in my set up 12gpH not per minute but per hour equals out to very low amount of water being ran through the system and only when adequte heat is being produced to make sure that the water is making it all the way out the tail pipe.  When water is being introduced through a cooling leak it is under much different circumstances with no control.  This guy seems to think water injection is ok on a detroit 2-stroke! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rve2Z3xZ02A

I'd be very hesitant on putting a water injection on the Diesel.  One mistake at injecting too much and you can bend a rod or/and crack the heads with water lockup.  Just get the cooling issues in hand and quit playing with a design that engineers made many years ago that has been proven over billions of miles.  Good Luck, TomC

Don & CraigC, the amount of water (or methanol, or a 50/50 mix) is very little.  The volume is less than the gas or fuel that the engine uses under full load.  Hydro lock can happen if the system doesn't have any fail safes.  It's vital that the system have an on off switch and that the trigger switch is a boost pressure switch, or maybe a micro switch activated only when the throttle lever is wide open.  And again, the systems you can buy have multiple fail safes, flow rate sensors, fluid level sensor, trigger sensors, etc.  My car's system performed flawlessly over 5000 miles in 8 days, 24 hours a days.  BTW, I would use 1 gallon of water/methanol in approx 4 minutes on the track. I would think the amount we'd use in a DD would be less, but I may be wrong.

Using straight, 100% methanol increases performance of these water injections systems, but since methanol burns with no odor and a colorless flame, there really is no reason to increase the danger factor when going 170 mph in a car, or 70 mph in a bus, for that matter!  The 50/50 water & methanol is a very good compromise.

OneLapper has anyone tried a mix of water and ethanol?  Ethanol is a lot cheaper than methanol and should provide very similar performance.

Quote from: quantum500 on September 28, 2008, 11:57:10 AM
OneLapper has anyone tried a mix of water and ethanol?  Ethanol is a lot cheaper than methanol and should provide very similar performance.

Y

I can't say that I'm aware of people using ethanol.  Most guys are using 50% water and 50% isopropyl alcohol.  Methanol is expensive and difficult to find, but isopropyl alcohol is everywhere and cheap to buy.  You can even use windshield washer fluid which will work just fine as it also has methanol in it. 

Is my thinking correct in the feasibility of using ethanol?

That was an impressive video. Kinda cool watching a screamin DD smokin them tires!

Paul

Quote from: quantum500 on September 28, 2008, 11:57:10 AM
OneLapper has anyone tried a mix of water and ethanol?  Ethanol is a lot cheaper than methanol and should provide very similar performance.

This is not relate to the subject but here the link to your question:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:Methanol_--_Ethanol's_Sister_Product

Quote" What are the differences between ethanol and methanol? Methanol is less expensive to produce than ethanol. However, ethanol yields more energy and therefore better mileage results from burning it. Dr. Robert Zubrin, president of the aerospace engineering and research firm Pioneer Astronautics writes:

"Methanol is cheaper than ethanol. It can also be made from a broader variety of biomass material, as well as from coal and natural gas.* And methanol is the safest motor fuel, because it is much less flammable than gasoline (a fact that has led to its adoption by car racing leagues). [• Re * Why would we want to get methanol out of coal? How is it different from kerosene, coal oil?] Methanol is methanol. Methanol from coal is has the same properties as methanol from any other source. The only difference is that it cost less to produce methanol from coal than any other source. Methanol is the primitive building block for petroleum (in other words before petroleum could come into existence there first had to be the production of methane (which is methanol). [Methane is different from methanol. Also I don't think synthesis of gasoline from cola foes through methane or methanol steps] Visit the following website for more information: http://www.iags.org/n071204t2.htm (Excalibur R. FreedomReb)
"On the other hand, ethanol is less chemically toxic than methanol, and it carries more energy per gallon. Ethanol contains about 75 percent of the energy of gasoline per gallon, compared to 67 percent for methanol. Both thus achieve fewer miles per gallon than gasoline, but about as many miles per dollar at current prices, and probably many more miles per dollar at future prices." [• How much CO2 is emitted from burning methanol, and likewise how much is emitted from ethanol? How much CO2 is emitted from burning the same quantity of gasoline? And to obtain the same power, how much CO2 would come from burning the greater amounts of the two alcohols that would be required to get the same energy from a given (lesser) amount of gasoline?]
Every green plant (trees, grass, etc.) needs CO2 (carbon dioxide) to produce energy thru photosynthesis, releasing the by produce we all need which is oxygen.(Excalibur R. FreedomReb)" unquote

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald