I have always had a problem with merging my house bank with my 350 amp Neihoff alternator. I use a 500 amp solenoid that I control from the cockpit. It is not continuous duty but it is heavy duty. So if I use it for eight hours on a road trip that is beyond its ability. I think I have bought at least three of these during my bus ownership. The one I have now is not really working right anymore. I'm not getting the voltage through the switch as my voltmeter on the dash is showing about 12.5 vdc and the inverter shows the same. It should be close to 14.2 vdc alternator output.
Has anyone had good success with some type of switching device? I'm open for ideas.
David
David, Texas Industrial Electric should have a high amp cross over, if they are not rated for the amps, they go bad, I replaced mine twice before I bit the bullet and paid the price, they are not cheap @ almost 300 bucks, the 500 amp could be just the surge rating lol took me 2 to figure that out, you do need a continuous duty you are wasting money buying a momentary solenoid. My Country Coach has 2 of the $75.00 continuous duty solenoids wired together in parallel for the load when they go bad, I going to replace those with one then I only have 1/2 the problem maybe. :P
And use a continuous duty solenoid. Replace once per year.
Quote from: David Anderson on January 28, 2023, 07:17:25 PM
I have always had a problem with merging my house bank with my 350 amp Neihoff alternator. I use a 500 amp solenoid that I control from the cockpit. It is not continuous duty but it is heavy duty. So if I use it for eight hours on a road trip that is beyond its ability. I think I have bought at least three of these during my bus ownership. The one I have now is not really working right anymore. I'm not getting the voltage through the switch as my voltmeter on the dash is showing about 12.5 vdc and the inverter shows the same. It should be close to 14.2 vdc alternator output.
Has anyone had good success with some type of switching device? I'm open for ideas.
David
We use the Blue Sea Remote Battery Switches. Cont. Rating is 500A. It is a latching relay that only needs power to latch in either direction then sits static. They have been issue free working great for several years now. We have one on each the house & chassis battery banks for bringing into or out of circuit for our Magnum converter and/or engine alternator. Ebay & Amazon sells them.
somthing like this will work just not sure on the quality
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082HMDMLG/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?pd_rd_i=B082HMDMLG&pd_rd_w=KqFgC&content-id=amzn1.sym.88097cb9-5064-44ef-891b-abfacbc1c44b&pf_rd_p=88097cb9-5064-44ef-891b-abfacbc1c44b&pf_rd_r=CHEFF0QBPY4SSGWG09KX&pd_rd_wg=AMR7F&pd_rd_r=01b9c076-7684-42b4-8368-71a8a24126ce&s=car&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWw&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFPNDRFT0VITFRNMFMmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA2MTUxNDAzN1VMVFMzOVRLMFdQJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3ODE1NzRWV0VSOUpJUUM2RlMmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWwmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 29, 2023, 06:10:17 AM
We use the Blue Sea Remote Battery Switches. Cont. Rating is 500A. It is a latching relay that only needs power to latch in either direction then sits static. They have been issue free working great for several years now. We have one on each the house & chassis battery banks for bringing into or out of circuit for our Magnum converter and/or engine alternator. Ebay & Amazon sells them.
This has my interest. What is the difference between the 7700 momentary and the 7713 continuous?
I'm not clear on that spec.
I don't find any difference in the wiring instructions.
The reason I ask is that I would like to keep the dash switch I have because it matches my switch array on my dash. It is off/on with a light when on. That would be wired as 12v+ 12v-
12v load.
David
They wire the same the coil inside are different. A momentary solenoid will get hot as hell under a constant load
Quote from: luvrbus on January 29, 2023, 04:34:57 AM
David, Texas Industrial Electric should have a high amp cross over
This is the 2nd one I've bought from them. He told me on the phone last Friday that 8 hours of continuous coil power is too long. Damaging heat buildup. I need to change my engineering.
David
Quote from: luvrbus on January 29, 2023, 08:14:46 AM
They wire the same the coil inside are different. A momentary solenoid will get hot as hell under a constant load
Yes but if you look at their specs all model numbers have a continuous rating of 500 amps whether it is a momentary or continuous coil
Quote from: David Anderson on January 29, 2023, 08:02:13 AM
This has my interest. What is the difference between the 7700 momentary and the 7713 continuous?
I'm not clear on that spec.
I don't find any difference in the wiring instructions.
The reason I ask is that I would like to keep the dash switch I have because it matches my switch array on my dash. It is off/on with a light when on. That would be wired as 12v+ 12v-
12v load.
David
We have the 7700s I think the continuous & momentary mention pertains to the operation, not the coil spec. These are NOT conventional solenoids but latching relays. They only need power to latch. These are once & done... They are in the $100 range, you get what you pay for. We have used solenoids successfully for many decades but when it came to high amperage (500 continuous) and low voltage (12VDC) these latching relays are superior and have the dependability & longevity expected. You could maintain your current switch configuration to power the 7700 & it's needed switch. I'm not particularly versed in the difference between the 7700 & 7713. Go to the Blue Sea website as they give good full descriptions & specs better to understand than 3rd party advertisers.
words, they make trouble...
For the silently watching learners, there are two uses of the word "continuous" for these solenoid switches.
The rating of the electrical contacts, the amount of amperage that it should "continuously" carry, without failing, versus a momentary or surge rating.
Then there is the solenoid that draws the electrical contacts together, which may be a "momentary" solenoid, intended for a short connection, like a starter, or a "continuous" solenoid, which is intended to hold the contacts together for a long time.
So, a busnut, for tying a house bank to the alternator for charging purposes, wants a continuous amperage rating higher than the alternator output, and a continuous rated solenoid in that switch. Wired up with the correct size of cables, of course...
The latching feature mentioned earlier is a nice way to go, as there is energizing of the solenoid coil only to move the contacts, not to hold them together.
Fancier they are, the more they co$t...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: David Anderson on January 29, 2023, 08:23:47 AM
Yes but if you look at their specs all model numbers have a continuous rating of 500 amps whether it is a momentary or continuous coil
All I can say is someone has the specs screwed up,500 amps is close to what a starter would draw,they use a momentary to tie the banks together for a boost in power for starting all RV's with 2 battery banks have that feature and use another solenoid or isolator to charge the house bank,All continuous service solenoid are not a latching type ones with latching usually have a L in the model number .BlueSea buys their solenoids from Cole/Hersee even the manual rotary switch they sell is a Cole/Hersee lol put it in Blue Sea packing for boat owners and the price goes up.I had a Blue Sea electrical panel 12v and 115 V in one panel only took 2 trips to marine place to find out who made the breakers for the panel
Quote from: buswarrior on January 29, 2023, 08:51:25 AM
words, they make trouble...
For the silently watching learners, there are two uses of the word "continuous" for these solenoid switches.
The rating of the electrical contacts, the amount of amperage that it should "continuously" carry, without failing, versus a momentary or surge rating.
Then there is the solenoid that draws the electrical contacts together, which may be a "momentary" solenoid, intended for a short connection, like a starter, or a "continuous" solenoid, which is intended to hold the contacts together for a long time.
So, a busnut, for tying a house bank to the alternator for charging purposes, wants a continuous amperage rating higher than the alternator output, and a continuous rated solenoid in that switch. Wired up with the correct size of cables, of course...
The latching feature mentioned earlier is a nice way to go, as there is energizing of the solenoid coil only to move the contacts, not to hold them together.
Fancier they are, the more they co$t...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Well said.
Then the 7713 is the one for me. I have 4 aught wire and 300 amps is the fuse rating on my line which is sufficient for my uses.
https://d2pyqm2yd3fw2i.cloudfront.net/files/resources/sales_sheets/6834-007-ML-RBS-web.pdf
I use a Bigboy latching relay. Been working for 23 years
Check out this smart switch over through Battle Born. https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/lifepo4-battery-isolation-manager/
Quote from: TomC on February 04, 2023, 01:31:14 PM
Check out this smart switch over through Battle Born. https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/lifepo4-battery-isolation-manager/
You see those on new RV's with the Lifepo4 so I take it those just work with Lifepo4 batteries? they all looked the same but had 4 or 5 different brand names Sure Power was the most common name
It works well with the 3 100amp Battle Born Lithium iron batteries. Good Luck, TomC
This will probably not add value to the subject, but in my first bus, I had a typical deep cycle house lead acid battery bank. I had a battery checker above the driver's area where I could check the status of the house batteries from time to time while driving. I had a continuous solenoid (I don't recall the brand or type, but was for continuous duty vs. intermittent) that I would switch on when the house batteries would get low. I picked it up from a local automotive electrical outfit. It worked very well, as far as staying in the open position is concerned, but I only probably turned it on for an hour or two at a time, as needed. One problem though that I did have was that it did not account for balancing the system. I ended up ruining my bus starting batteries. It was explained to me later that I would have been better off with a system that balances the loads so that you don't fry one system while charging another. With gearing up for installing my system in my new bus "02 MCI, I will be designing this more carefully to make sure I don't have similar problems (especially when going with lithium-iron batteries). I'm definitely in a learning curve on this entire subject.
They have been using isolators for 50 years with just a solenoid to boost the batteries if needed. I still prefer the isolator system over the solenoids,they never give trouble unless it is human error.
Quote from: Glennman on February 06, 2023, 01:44:57 PM
With gearing up for installing my system in my new bus "02 MCI, I will be designing this more carefully to make sure I don't have similar problems (especially when going with lithium-iron batteries). I'm definitely in a learning curve on this entire subject.
Do NOT connect batteries of a different chemistry directly to the coach alternator.
A DC to DC charger, intended to charge that battery chemistry is a must.
The coach alternator regulator is commanding a charge profile that will be harmful to anything other than lead. And some battery chemistries will try to absorb all the power that the alternator is fooled into making, putting it at risk of burning out.
The DC to DC charger just becomes another normal load on the coach electrical system, no further work is needed on that side.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Dual alternators 1 for house batteries and 1 for the chassis is fool proof.,when you get into merging the 2 banks is where you can get into trouble with different chemistry of batteries. I lost 6-8D AGM's batteries playing that game that was a very costly education.
Quote from: luvrbus on February 06, 2023, 04:30:06 PM
Dual alternators 1 for house batteries and 1 for the chassis is fool proof.,when you get into merging the 2 banks is where you can get into trouble with different chemistry of batteries. I lost 6-8D AGM's batteries playing that game that was a very costly education.
:^ :^
Each alternator has to be regulated for the intended battery bank.
Using a "regular" automotive alternator for the lithium chemistries is going to get expensive fast.
An externally regulated alternator, with a regulator with matching charging profiles to the battery chemistry will make a sweet set-up.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on February 07, 2023, 08:31:47 AM
Using a "regular" automotive alternator for the lithium chemistries is going to get expensive fast.
Why? Seems like you would need a single system single alternator charging the lithium bank. That doesn't seem expensive, I must be missing something.
You cannot always depend on the BMS to control a spike from the bus alternator, a 24 volt will spike to 32 volts and a 12 volt system can spike to 19 volts old buses automotive style alternators never really completely charging.All the Prevost converters use 2 or 3 alternators now,lol you cannot buy a lifepo4 battery for a 100 bucks like you can a alternator.
Quote from: windtrader on February 07, 2023, 10:12:10 AM
Why? Seems like you would need a single system single alternator charging the lithium bank. That doesn't seem expensive, I must be missing something.
[/quote
Wrong voltage, so the lithium gets over or under charged, voltage sencing of traditional alternator will foul up the potential re-charge time, some lithiums will allow the alternator charging to go beyond its maximum and overheat it. Lithium does not withstand abuses outside their operating parameters.
Unfortunately, all we read is everyone is doing it, and the reporting is unblanced. Nobody gets on the internet to brag they fried their expensive toys, or burned down their bus.
There are way too many fooling with lithium, that do not know what they are doing, just blindly following what others have egged them on to do.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on February 06, 2023, 03:33:43 PM
Do NOT connect batteries of a different chemistry directly to the coach alternator.
A DC to DC charger, intended to charge that battery chemistry is a must.
The coach alternator regulator is commanding a charge profile that will be harmful to anything other than lead. And some battery chemistries will try to absorb all the power that the alternator is fooled into making, putting it at risk of burning out.
The DC to DC charger just becomes another normal load on the coach electrical system, no further work is needed on that side.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I believe I'll have a DC to DC charger in the system. I'll have to check my materials list. I have yet to buy everything. I plan to do that next month (inverter, charge controllers, etc.).
The DC to DC isolates the batteries from alternator when you are charging from the inverter plugged in you need ECHO charger to maintain the starting and generator batteries or you end up with battery tenders.The ECHO charger when the house batteries are charging will pass a charge to the starting and generator battery.I love mine never a problem with the starting or generator batteries being low on charge when sitting for months if I am plugged in
BW, Clifford,
Adding lithium into bus sytems does take quality research. I've not done any myself but seems highly probably that there is equipment to enable an alternator to charge lithium bank safely. Like selecting a BMS that is designed to accept power from an alternator which is very different that from solar panels etc.
By the time someone gets it figured out we will have new battery technology and it will start over again. I didn't go with Lithium ,the Lifeline 8-D's AGM were about the same in price as a Lithium 8-D size.Lifeline sells both and weighing the pros and cons.The only things I could come up with was the difference in weight and faster charging between the 2, since I don't have solar, I went with the AGM's
Quote from: TomC on February 04, 2023, 01:31:14 PM
Check out this smart switch over through Battle Born. https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/lifepo4-battery-isolation-manager/
It looks to be only 12 volts though. :-\
Seb
A lot use the Big Boy Battery Isolator Relay to keep both house and chassis batteries happy. Wonder if those work. They say they are compatible with wet and agm batteries running together.
Not much difference in charging between the wet cell and AGM batteries, charging the Lithium from a chassis alternator is where you get into trouble.
Got it installed. I had to move some wiring around. I put a 300amp fuse under the home made PVC pipe cover in the picture next to the 350 amp Neihoff alternator. The Blue Sea device is next to the house bank. I hope this one will last. Thanks for your help.
David
Quote from: David Anderson on February 17, 2023, 02:09:22 PM
Got it installed. I had to move some wiring around. I put a 300amp fuse under the home made PVC pipe cover in the picture next to the 350 amp Neihoff alternator. The Blue Sea device is next to the house bank. I hope this one will last. Thanks for your help.
David
You won't be sorry. Design for marine environments will stand the test of time. I've seen these RBSs on race boats running six 300HP outboards. There's one for every engine and hooked up so their switching is automatic. Those engines retail over 35 to 40 grand a pop so you can rest assure they'll last in your bus. Here's our set up. It enables us to connect the Magnum inverter to either or both the house &/or chassis battery banks. :^
First test run today. I used the device for 3 hours today to run my Coleman roof top ac. It worked flawlessly. It maintained 14.0 volts dc to the trace SW2512 the whole time. The alternator is set at 14.2volts so only .2 voltage drop in a 22' cable.
I've never been able to get those numbers before. The ac pulls 12 amps ac so that is 120 amps dc load. The switch stays cool to the touch, no heat. I'm real pleased.
Quote from: David Anderson on February 23, 2023, 07:23:31 PM
First test run today. I used the device for 3 hours today to run my Coleman roof top ac. It worked flawlessly. It maintained 14.0 volts dc to the trace SW2512 the whole time. The alternator is set at 14.2volts so only .2 voltage drop in a 22' cable.
I've never been able to get those numbers before. The ac pulls 12 amps ac so that is 120 amps dc load. The switch stays cool to the touch, no heat. I'm real pleased.
Glad it worked out for you!
Now if the 2500 watt Trace holds up may be his next hurdle. On a hot day in Texas in Aug the 2512 running the Coleman roof top is going to be about maxed out. With heat comes more amp and watts draw I see that on my 3 Colemans here in AZ according to my SilverLeaf
Quote from: luvrbus on February 24, 2023, 06:52:51 AM
Now if the 2500 watt Trace holds up may be his next hurdle. On a hot day in Texas in Aug the 2512 running the Coleman roof top is going to be about maxed out. With heat comes more amp and watts draw I see that on my 3 Colemans here in AZ according to my SilverLeaf
That's a for sure point. Our HE Dometic roof air maxes at 11 amps and the 2812 Magnum goes to overload on start for a couple seconds then runs it fine. The Blue Sea RBS has no problem handling the load. I'd be preferring the genny in sustained high heat high load conditions.
If I need more than 1 AC I use the genny and run all 3 units. I rarely run just one off the inverter
There was mention of high current contact relays. Just got this and seems like they are a deal and might work.
https://batteryhookup.com/products/te-connectivity-ev200aaana-500a-0-900vdc