You can call me a skeptical curmudgeon all you want. However, there may be good reason. These are designed for use around an urban center and they are having all kinds of problems.
https://www.nationandstate.com/2021/07/15/report-philadelphias-proterra-fleet-in-complete-shambles/
Good read. Definitely proves the fallacy of an all electric zero emission future.
It won't be long before a charge on EV's will cost as much as gasoline if it's not happening now
Not questioning the problems the article describes, but apparently there are other cities who are managing much better.
Certainly there's going to be a learning curve for any system switching to electric.
As much as I also enjoy being a curmudgeon from time to time, I'm afraid diesel buses are going the way of the dodo bird in the not-too-distant future. Hopefully they get the bugs worked out before that happens.
I think you are correct for the most part Richard. It may not be overnight that diesel powered buses go the way of the square wheel and 8 track but it will happen albeit longer term. Sure we look at it as traditional bus fans but the people who operate and above all who will be passengers just want them to work as prescribed. All it would take is one or two times of a broken down bus to turn people off to these. Until all BEV's can get these bugs worked out, they have a long way to go before they can earn people's confidence but again it will take some time first.
Diesel power is going to be around for many more years
A city BEV that goes 50-100 miles max is going to totally replace diesel? Not in this lifetime. OK I grant you that they have proven it is POSSIBLE. Not better in any way, just possible. Honestly electric trolleys had a better chance. The energy density just isn't there, and it may never be. Despite the advances in modern battery technology, the advance that is needed to make that happen is one complete order of magnitude greater than what is now available. That's a factor of 10. Ten times better is what it will take. That gives you a 500 mile range with the same bulk and weight or a 250 mile range with half the bulk and weight which would be what is needed for general acceptance. Battery technology has not advanced by a factor of 10 over the entire history of batteries so going from here to there would take a technological breakthrough the likes of which the human race has probably never achieved in the entirety of human history.
Yeah it'd be nice but it's wishful thinking and any chemical engineer will tell you so. How long did it take 4 stroke diesels to push all 2 stroke diesels completely off the roads? Oh wait, hasn't happened yet. To say nothing of marine and stationary.
Jim
Valley Metro in Phoenix has never taken the bait yet on electric buses because of heat and the long routes lol hell they cannot keep the electric rail system up and running
Wishful hoping never wins against thinking.
Quote from: Lee Bradley on September 28, 2022, 11:13:52 AM
Wishful hoping never wins against thinking.
Unless luck is in the equation!
Looks safe to me lol! No diesel bus' were harmed in this inccident
https://youtu.be/T71cVhxG_v4
Quote from: Van on September 28, 2022, 01:22:52 PM
Looks safe to me lol! No diesel bus' were harmed in this inccident
https://youtu.be/T71cVhxG_v4
Not all of these video are factual. Apparently some recent videos claiming to show an electric bus on fire were actually videos of propane/diesel buses.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-bus-fire/fact-check-clip-does-not-show-a-battery-electric-bus-on-fire-idUSL2N2WN1L4
There are over 500 bus fires a year, nearly all of them diesel or propane.
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/06/09/more-than-500-bus-fires-a-year-reported-in-us-roadshow/?preview_id=6191909
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on September 28, 2022, 10:13:29 AM
A city BEV that goes 50-100 miles max is going to totally replace diesel? Not in this lifetime. OK I grant you that they have proven it is POSSIBLE. Not better in any way, just possible. Honestly electric trolleys had a better chance...
Jim
There are more than a few projects working to extend the range by utilizing overhead charging. One I read about can charge enough in the time it takes to drop off/pick up passengers at a bus stop to get to the next stop and beyond. The batteries would be used for times when the stations are further apart.
Obviously this is a better solution for cities and urban areas than for rural routes, but with the number of these type of experiments in place I foresee more and more of these systems going online in the coming years.
Would be interesting to see them combine the old trackless trolley overhead lines with a BEV bus, allowing it to charge while on the portion of the route with the overhead power lines, and the run on batteries were there aren't.
Very few transit buses run on propane if any they are mostly CNG engines made by Cummins ,CNG is 1/2 the cost of propane is why it is so popular for Transit buses fleets,the school here has some LNG (liquid natural gas) they can run on propane because propane is a liquid
Quote from: luvrbus on September 28, 2022, 03:26:26 PM
Very few transit buses run on propane if any they are mostly CNG engines made by Cummins ,CNG is 1/2 the cost of propane is why it is so popular for Transit buses fleets,the school here has some LNG (liquid natural gas) they can run on propane because propane is a liquid
It might have been CNG or some other similar thing. I was using 'propane' generically (as opposed to gasoline or diesel) which was not very accurate.
CNG & Propane are similar in that there both gaseous. Any appliance that runs on LNG can easily be converted to burn LP with an affordable conversion kit and visa versa.
The local transit authority a few months back ordered a large number of new buses for the routine 12 year replacement. Environmentalists are up in arms because most of the order is for diesel engine buses. They are not yet ready to go 100% in on electric buses. They have a dozen or so electric buses now that spent more time unused in the garage during the first 18 months than on the road. They were for a fixed route, but the contactless chargers at the end of the line simply didn't work reliably and took months to get working. The electric buses did not have the range without charging for 10 to 20 minutes during the layover at the end of the run.
Quote from: dtcerrato on September 28, 2022, 06:45:31 PM
CNG & Propane are similar in that there both gaseous. Any appliance that runs on LNG can easily be converted to burn LP with an affordable conversion kit and visa versa.
LNG and propane are similar,propane is liquid till it goes through the vaporization process when it leaves the tank, CNG is a gas under pressure it is not a liquid
I know some have regenerative braking. Or how about some form of an axle driven generator? They used to use such a setup on some railroad coaches and cabooses? To reduce drag, they could be engaged or disengaged as needed.
Not sure what the debate is but EV bus is coming to all public transit agencies. Read the CARB mandatehttps://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-transitioning-all-electric-public-bus-fleet-2040
Commercial revenue buses? One would have to look at the numbers, how much a percentage of manufactured OTR vs public buses. Yes, they are different platforms but you can be sure for profit compaines that invest hundreds of millions to meet the technical manddates for public buses will seek ways to apply to all other parts of their businesses.
Stories like this will cause the real BEV zealots to say..."See, this wouldn't happen if buses were electric." So the bus would be loud for a day or two. They didn't have to take them out of service.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oshkosh-school-bus-service-hit-again-and-harder-by-catalytic-convert-thefts/ar-AA12puEA