First post here. I'm about a month into researching bus conversions. Watched several YouTube videos of a few conversion projects and learned a bunch. I've never done a bust conversion of any kind but have some good construction and mechanical skills.
So the first big question—which bus to start with. I've read a few threads here but most are 4-5 years old. I'd really like to get some input from you experienced bus builders. I'm pretty wide open but have great interest in MCI, Setra and Temsa. Temsa because of the 30', 35' and 45' options. Temsa USA headquarters is in Orlando Florida which is just 30 minutes away which makes it even more attractive for service support. They have several 30' and 35' models in the 2012 to 2014 range that fit my initial purchase budget.
So....anyone here done a Temsa or Setra conversion who can share their experience? Photo or video you can share of your project? Why you would or would not do it again?
Thanks in an advance!
If you really, really want to do a conversion, MCI DL3 is top of the list.
But the more prudent, sensible thing to do would be to buy a bus that is already converted. Much cheaper at the end of the day, and you get to go camping that night.
You think a conversion will take you 6 months or a year... It will take 2 to 3 times as long, and 2 to 3 times the money you budget now.
JC
Welcome, aboard.
If looking for a short bus not many choices. I like my MCI 5C but it runs a drop box. The GMs run a V drive. Point being you need to see what the down side is with the ones you like. I am of no help there. I worked on mine for 6 years, but did a lot on it more than some others.
Good luck on your search and purchase.
Quote from: lostagain on September 25, 2022, 11:10:33 AM
If you really, really want to do a conversion, MCI DL3 is top of the list.
But the more prudent, sensible thing to do would be to buy a bus that is already converted. Much cheaper at the end of the day, and you get to go camping that night.
You think a conversion will take you 6 months or a year... It will take 2 to 3 times as long, and 2 to 3 times the money you budget now.
JC
Thanks JC. That would be easier but being semi-retired I have plenty of free time and in no hurry. I'm looking at this is a great project. We have looked at some builds for ideas and even regular Class As and none are laid out in a way that we like. So would rather build from the ground up. I kinda figured I would end up over budget—can't think of a protect I've done where I actually stayed under budget.
if willing to get the 40 footer, lot more common to get parts on an MCI, since so many out there. and be cheaper to pick up a used one. go with 60 series. getting too difficult to get 2 stroke repaired any more. imagine another 5 to 10 years from now. just don't try to go cheap and end up with a worn out 60, or a shell with a history of electronics problems. stay away from ones that are based in the ne.
I would stay under 40ft, but get a 102" wide bus. The MCI 102C3 is prime. But I would also NOT get anything with the old 2 stroke Detroits (6-71, 6V-92, 8V-71, 8V-92). Series 60 pre 2002 (before EGR) is prime). Get Allison automatic.
I have a Super C based on a Kenworth cabover where I had the 32ft box custom made to my specifications. MUCH EASIER doing maintenance, and any truck dealer that works on Caterpillar engines. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on September 25, 2022, 12:53:35 PM
I would stay under 40ft, but get a 102" wide bus. The MCI 102C3 is prime. But I would also NOT get anything with the old 2 stroke Detroits (6-71, 6V-92, 8V-71, 8V-92). Series 60 pre 2002 (before EGR) is prime). Get Allison automatic.
I have a Super C based on a Kenworth cabover where I had the 32ft box custom made to my specifications. MUCH EASIER doing maintenance, and any truck dealer that works on Caterpillar engines. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks Tom. For MCI absolutely staying in the D4500 model (orJ if we are really lucky) at a minimum with Detroit diesel and Allison tranny. My cousin is a diesel mechanic so anything we buy with get a full overhaul done to it.
My ONLY regret about building my bus the way I wanted it is that I should have stated 10 years sooner. By the time I got it "done" I can see that I don't have enough years left to use it up! Better get cracking! Jack
Quote from: oltrunt on September 25, 2022, 06:16:56 PM
My ONLY regret about building my bus the way I wanted it is that I should have stated 10 years sooner. By the time I got it "done" I can see that I don't have enough years left to use it up! Better get cracking! Jack
What Jack said!
Jack my 92 yo father-in-law usually gives me this line whenever I achieve a project - "ita been nice to get that done 20 to 30 years ago"- spoken from shear experience I'm certain!...
Welcome to the den of nuts that love buses and converting them. If you provide more information about yourself, what and where you plan to typically use it, realistic all in budget, upfront "deposit", realistic timeframe to be able to have it completed, what sort of tools and workshop or area where you can park it for the construction.
Almost always it is faster and cheaper to start with a converted bus, even if you don't like the layout, it is far easier and cheaper to "remodel" one, same as a house. There is so much internal wiring, plumbing, switches, relays, latches, special fasteners, and on and on, several here have gone that route and can chime in. good luck welcome aboard
With stars twinkling in their eyes, they pile on to 45 foot coaches...
And then one tries to go shopping at the grocery store with one...
And the tag steering makes wallets ache to either make right, or weld-up fixed...
And the @$# drags on the ground in and out of sloped driveways...
I drive them professionally, can put one between a bee's knees, and i bought a 40 foot D3 for the next project.
That extra 5 feet simply makes way more trouble than the volume is worth to me, for camper purposes.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Getting an already converted bus that has been carefully taken care of is the most practical way to go. Getting into a Setra or Temsa might be more expensive service and parts wise because they are not everywhere, and they may or may not continue in the long term in the US. Neoplan, for instance, is no longer around. Temsa only has locations in Georgia, Florida, New Jersey, and California. They might be big in Turkey and Europe, but not so much in the US. Setra has around a dozen locations. MCI, Prevost, and Van Hool are the current big players, but there are still GM, Eagle, and Flxible buses around with lots of fans.
A lot depends on how much you have to spend, and how handy you are at doing renovations and mechanical repairs. There are buses for sale out there that have had major work done to them and are ready to go for far less money than doing the conversion yourself. If you are just starting out with a first bus, get one that has already been done, otherwise, brace yourself for years of work and lots of expenses. Look at lots of different makes and models, and decide for yourself which sizes and models appeal to you. Some brands may be more attractive to you than others, and which engine and transmission you get are important considerations. Go to bus ralley's and club get-together's and talk to owners to benefit from their knowledge. Don't buy anything impulsively based on emotion or closeness of location. Do lots of research.
What JC and buswarrior said. If you ever want to park in an RV park, 35' will fit in most RV park spaces, including state and national parks and can navigate tight access points with in those parks. Less spaces for 40' motorhomes and even less than that for 45'ers.
I've had a 35' 5A and a 40' 102C3, most recomended the "C" in the time frame I searched. The raised roof from the factory and 102"s wide, better airbags and other technical advances were great. Couldn't find one for sale with the 4 stroke from the factory (Both 2 and 4 stroke were first offered with the "C") other than rust buckets. "D's were to expensive at that time.
But now "D's are abundant, have 40'ers, 4 strokes with the great series 60s and some already or partially converted. This saving you the time and effort of removal of the seats, baggage bins and the awful job of removing the toilet...
Quote from: windtrader on September 25, 2022, 06:53:55 PM
Welcome to the den of nuts that love buses and converting them. If you provide more information about yourself, what and where you plan to typically use it, realistic all in budget, upfront "deposit", realistic timeframe to be able to have it completed, what sort of tools and workshop or area where you can park it for the construction.
Almost always it is faster and cheaper to start with a converted bus, even if you don't like the layout, it is far easier and cheaper to "remodel" one, same as a house. There is so much internal wiring, plumbing, switches, relays, latches, special fasteners, and on and on, several here have gone that route and can chime in. good luck welcome aboard
Thanks Windtrader.
So I'm a retired Army guy who is now a building code inspector as a second career to pay for my fishing habit. I've done several home renovations and well as rebuilt a Jeep taking it all the way down to the frame and replacing the 4 cyl with a big hemi motor. Had to get 3 onboard computers to talk to each other which was harder than shoe horning the V-8 motor into it. Also built two motorcycles as well as redid the electrical systems on a Mercedes sedan so have a good grasp of the Mercedes Canbus systems. In the diesel arena I have a cousin who is a very experienced diesel mechanic with his own shop. I've accumulated a pretty good tool inventory over years and know building, electric, HVAC and structural concepts while also having skills in these and welding experience.
An indoor shop to work on a bus is the hard part as any storage in Florida is very expensive. This is the one limiting factor for us. We've owned one RV, a 23' Airstream which we absolutely loved except that it was it was a double twin and not a single queen.
As far as use—my wife and I want to travel the US and up to Canada and Alaska. Also want to visit our kids from time to time. We travel with 2 Chihuahuas.
I've never driven a bus but have driven a bunch of large Army trucks and semi tractor trailers so really intimidated by a bus with an automatic tranny.
Hope this kinda sets the stage for where I am in building skills and future. As far as budget, I want to keep it under $80K total but could go to $100k if need be. We won't be I full travel mode for a few years so have a couple years of build time available. We love the Class A size but down have a Class A budget so we believe a conversion is the right answer. My wife is an interior design pro so she knows how she wants it laid out. It's up to me to make sure that structure and layout can be done with the underside systems (plumbing, HVAC, electrical and such).
Oh, forgot to mention my friend is a professional engineer who works in boat manufacturing specializes in electrical systems. He a great asset to have for this build.
My build is the "Red Bus" thread in the Projects forum. With your budget and skills, a 5 year build schedule would be reasonable, start to finish. Spending a year just finding the right bus will pay off handsomely in the long run but even then you might not find exactly what you are looking for. Buying a conversion and remodeling to meet your own needs is well within your budgetary limits and will save a lot of time, even with rather extensive remodeling. Make the right purchase and the driveline rebuild becomes unnecessary, freeing up cash for other niceties such as leveling jacks or a primo interior.
The mid to late 90's MCI is probably going to be your best bang for the buck but you also might find a nice Prevost in your range. Look for the 60 series 4 stroke and the Allison B500. 102 width gives a bigger living space than you might expect. 40 and 35 footers are much harder to find and expensive when you do. The 45 has more baggage space and room for larger tanks. It can make a very luxo rig because of that. Having driven semi's I doubt you'd have much of an issue with the extra length. They are more common and considerably less expensive as a general thing. So the real job ahead of you is to figure out what will work the best for you. The difference in usable baggage space between a 35 and a 45 is quite simply enormous. Likewise inside. Probably the 40 is the best balance, if you can find one without making too many compromises.
Speaking of which, one thing the longer bus lets you do is keep more of the existing systems just because you have the room to do it. Like the HVAC system. It makes perfect sense that the shorter bus owners remove those and install a mini-split for instance, especially in the narrower buses. It frees up basement space primarily, which is at a premium, all other considerations aside. But there can be advantages to keeping it. The smaller the bus is, the more critical it is that everything have it's place and be kept there, and that space is carefully apportioned and eked out on a most needed basis. This becomes much more flexible with a larger bus. For instance, rather than using a miniature washer/dryer setup there is room for the full sized appliances should you want that. A roomy kitchen, bath and bedroom are very real possibilities, and you can escape from the impression of being cramped pretty easily. So in the end it's all a matter of what you want and it takes awhile to decide just which priorities should take precedence.
As for the build or buy question, that largely depends on whether or not you can get the features you want in a completed conversion. The vast majority are going to have 2 stroke engines. If you are OK with that it broadens your choices tremendously. If not, it narrows them. That part is simple enough but the same approach applies to every other feature. By the time you have your feature list worked out you will have narrowed your potential candidates to a small list and can then start shopping. It may be that you will find just what you want at a price you can afford to pay and it's job done. It may be that you will never find everything that you have decided that you must insist on and you will have to build. Or anywhere in between. That's where the fun begins.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on September 26, 2022, 06:57:06 AM
My build is the "Red Bus" thread in the Projects forum. With your budget and skills, a 5 year build schedule would be reasonable, start to finish. Spending a year just finding the right bus will pay off handsomely in the long run but even then you might not find exactly what you are looking for. Buying a conversion and remodeling to meet your own needs is well within your budgetary limits and will save a lot of time, even with rather extensive remodeling. Make the right purchase and the driveline rebuild becomes unnecessary, freeing up cash for other niceties such as leveling jacks or a primo interior.
The mid to late 90's MCI is probably going to be your best bang for the buck but you also might find a nice Prevost in your range. Look for the 60 series 4 stroke and the Allison B500. 102 width gives a bigger living space than you might expect. 40 and 35 footers are much harder to find and expensive when you do. The 45 has more baggage space and room for larger tanks. It can make a very luxo rig because of that. Having driven semi's I doubt you'd have much of an issue with the extra length. They are more common and considerably less expensive as a general thing. So the real job ahead of you is to figure out what will work the best for you. The difference in usable baggage space between a 35 and a 45 is quite simply enormous. Likewise inside. Probably the 40 is the best balance, if you can find one without making too many compromises.
Speaking of which, one thing the longer bus lets you do is keep more of the existing systems just because you have the room to do it. Like the HVAC system. It makes perfect sense that the shorter bus owners remove those and install a mini-split for instance, especially in the narrower buses. It frees up basement space primarily, which is at a premium, all other considerations aside. But there can be advantages to keeping it. The smaller the bus is, the more critical it is that everything have it's place and be kept there, and that space is carefully apportioned and eked out on a most needed basis. This becomes much more flexible with a larger bus. For instance, rather than using a miniature washer/dryer setup there is room for the full sized appliances should you want that. A roomy kitchen, bath and bedroom are very real possibilities, and you can escape from the impression of being cramped pretty easily. So in the end it's all a matter of what you want and it takes awhile to decide just which priorities should take precedence.
As for the build or buy question, that largely depends on whether or not you can get the features you want in a completed conversion. The vast majority are going to have 2 stroke engines. If you are OK with that it broadens your choices tremendously. If not, it narrows them. That part is simple enough but the same approach applies to every other feature. By the time you have your feature list worked out you will have narrowed your potential candidates to a small list and can then start shopping. It may be that you will find just what you want at a price you can afford to pay and it's job done. It may be that you will never find everything that you have decided that you must insist on and you will have to build. Or anywhere in between. That's where the fun begins.
Jim
Thanks for the insight Jim. Much to think about. It comes down to what we wanna sacrifice I think. Going for 45 footer gives us all the space in the world, but will limit us in site selection for RVs and of course become somewhat of a maneuvering challenge. going for a 30 or 35 footer obviously makes it easier to maneuver and more options for RV parks and such but we lose space which may change our amenities that we want. We looked into buying a straight up used class A, but really don't like the quality and look of cabinets and furniture. My wife is very particular when it comes to interior design I appreciate. I am of course more concerned about. Structural integrity and having the space in the basement to do what we need to for plumbing, HVAC and electrical. It appears so far the MCI is the staple starter bus but wanted to make sure we explored all options. Lots of time to work with, so no hurry, thanks again John
For layout, decide if you want center or side isle. Everything works from there. The 'new' buses have enough height for either. I have a side isle converted Colorado built Neoplan, all U.S. running gear.
Lee, good thought. Really hadn't considered a side aisle versus a center aisle. Like a boat or an airplane. I was concerned with balance, so as to not overload one side or the other.
Thanks for more details about yourself. With a rather healthy budget of 80-100, I STRONGLY feel you need to find one already done. I wish I had that to play with because you can fine one FINE conversion in great shape.
Will it have the specific indoor style color palette, fabric choices, brands of appliances, etc. NO. Will it be super well kept, maybe even stored indoor its whole life and pampered. Will the running gear be in top shape, likely. If stored in an indoor climate controlled place, you can bet all maintenaice was 100% too.
Big benefit is getting on the road in style the day after you get the keys and have a super time years ahead of DIY. You can for sure make it yours over time, changing and updating interior to your tastes.
And given the manner and places you wish to visit, getting the smallest to fit where you want to go is best. In CA, I think they are even down to 24' or some nonsense. Personally, 40' is the sweet spot between 35 and 45.
There are many places to search for a gem. If you need soe tips there, just ask.
Last thing is timing. Since you are willing to defer road trips for at least a year or two, you have time to search for a sweet converted bus. I'm new here, like 5 years, but others who have been through more major recessions and fuel spikes can probably agree, these monster that suck gulp gallons of diesel get on the block more than less. I suspect over the next year the deals will only grow better, so time is on your side.
Oh, you mentioned having a pretty good hands on experience with vehicles. Do you lave doing that? Or is it more a chore than fun? I have enough skills to tackle some bus jobs, but i'll admint I rather do something other than getting all greased up and grimy crawing under a bus, banging my knucles from slipped wrenches, rubbing grease balls falling on my face and in my hair. i LOVE my already converted and super condition bus. best decision i ever made. Got lots of support here back then because like most who come knocking with dreams of a DIY project.
Windtrader, that's some good food for thought with an option to buy already converted. Problem is, I absolutely love wrenching on vehicles, building stuff and solving problems. Love a good "project" to work on. We'll see. I may dig into this and find I'm over my head.
ltc, check your message inbox here on the board, sent you a PM.😉
As for a side or center hall, if your 6' and over, side isle may not be for you. They all have curved sides, center isle is best for roof ACs, as drains and compressors work best on the flat area in the center. All MCIs from the "C" on have raised roofs, so not as big of an issue.
Since you live in Florida and it's mostly flat land, an 8V92 2 stroke, heating up climbing mountains isn't as big of a problem as living in mountainous southwest.
It is an almost absolute guarantee that you will get nicer cabinetry in a bus that came from one of the big name converters and this translates into a nicer and professionally finished interior. Of course it may not be what you want so there's the question of can you live with it. Somebody liked it, but it might be more for show than go. OTOH if you love cabinetry work that part gets much easier, but it is very difficult (but by no means impossible) for an amateur to pull off a professional cabinetry job. So if perfection is a goal keep that in mind.
Of course there is a trade off. You may find the functional parts of the conversion are not up to your standards. Unfortunately RVs and campers in general have not enjoyed very high standards in construction. Bus conversions tend to be a cut above but they still suffered from shortcuts if you look in the right places. Does it matter? Maybe, maybe not. That's up to you. But due diligence is needed to verify how everything was done, particularly the electrical and plumbing. I met a fellow last weekend who had been killed because he plugged in an extension cord wrong, so don't let that be you.
Jim
Drive a 45 ft MCI D you will be surprised how well they do in tight spaces ,I watched Phil Lyons leave the Caverns Sunday in his DL3 and it was tight
You must also consider the high end class As. We love our Country Coach. High quality. And this is after a life time of MCIs.
JC
Quote from: lostagain on September 26, 2022, 04:26:02 PM
You must also consider the high end class As. We love our Country Coach. High quality. And this is after a life time of MCIs.
JC
I love my CC too since Van is getting the HVAC system worked out, a friggn $889,000.00 RV when new with a mickey mouse T stat to control the AC,heat pumps a the Aqua hot,I got my new Mirco-Air T Stat JC if you want the RV Confort T Stat for a spare it is less than a year old ,Like JC said you would love the HP of higher end coaches with 600 to 650 hp they don't even break a sweat and get good fuel mileage too.Don't over look Blue Bird they have some unique floor plan and are a good bus, plus they can be found with Cummins,Cat and the series 60 engines and the length can vary from 40 to 45 ft with lengths in-between, just don't look at the older froward engine models
Quote from: luvrbus on September 26, 2022, 06:23:27 PM
I love my CC too since Van is getting the HVAC system worked out, a friggn $889,000.00 RV when new with a mickey mouse T stat to control the AC,heat pumps a the Aqua hot,I got my new Mirco-Air T Stat JC if you want the RV Confort T Stat for a spare it is less than a year old ,Like JC said you would love the HP of higher end coaches with 600 to 650 hp they don't even break a sweat and get good fuel mileage too
We better get busy then Clifford, there's at least another week and a half of this "Hot as Balls" weather lol! I guess Fall musta been canceled this year. :P
Quote from: Van on September 26, 2022, 06:51:11 PM
We better get busy then Clifford, there's at least another week and a half of this "Hot as Balls" weather lol! I guess Fall musta been canceled this year. :P
I came down the hill from Golden Shores to Lauglin and said to my self $#!% I am smarter than this back to Flag would be better for me
Come on! You guys are suggesting an already converted bus?
Where is the fun in that?
If I can do it, anyone can.
I am partial to the 2002 MCI D4500 because I have one that I'm converting. However, I have to agree with some on this board that a late 90's model would be better (like Jim Blackwood's bus). I have the module electrical system in lieu of a bunch of standard wires going from front to rear. The modules are pretty complicated and are fed by 8 pair computer style cables in lieu of a whole bunch of wires. However, I think I would rather have the standard wire system as the modules come with a level of complexity. I do not have an EGR, but I do have the 12.7-liter Series 60 and Allison B500. It's a real nice bus to convert. I like the 45 foot bus as the bays have some exterior wall area beyond the doors that is nice for installing things where a door is otherwise the same width as the bay. I have my tank outlet coming right out the side of the bus, and I do not have to run the drain hose through the open bay door, or up through a hole in the floor. I also have my 50 amp inlet mounted right on the side of the bus next to the bay door thanks to the extra wall area. I personally like the style of the E or J series (I don't recall which is which) as they have (I believe) the spiral entry stairs and a fancier looking exterior. The D series is a little more "utility" looking and is a work horse. I had to change out the double doors with a sedan door and I did not have a rear restroom (I hear those are a real pain to remove). You can follow my build on YouTube under 'Glennman' (a shameful plug for myself). Whichever you choose, have a great time. I think I enjoy building the bus more than I will using it, but it is a lot of fun to drive around. The 45 foot is not a problem at all for me, but as some have mentioned, it may be an issue with some parks. I am building mine to boondock for the most part, but... we'll see.
Quote from: Glennman on September 26, 2022, 11:05:48 PM
I am partial to the 2002 MCI D4500 because I have one that I'm converting. However, I have to agree with some on this board that a late 90's model would be better (like Jim Blackwood's bus). I have the module electrical system in lieu of a bunch of standard wires going from front to rear. The modules are pretty complicated and are fed by 8 pair computer style cables in lieu of a whole bunch of wires. However, I think I would rather have the standard wire system as the modules come with a level of complexity. I do not have an EGR, but I do have the 12.7-liter Series 60 and Allison B500. It's a real nice bus to convert. I like the 45 foot bus as the bays have some exterior wall area beyond the doors that is nice for installing things where a door is otherwise the same width as the bay. I have my tank outlet coming right out the side of the bus, and I do not have to run the drain hose through the open bay door, or up through a hole in the floor. I also have my 50 amp inlet mounted right on the side of the bus next to the bay door thanks to the extra wall area. I personally like the style of the E or J series (I don't recall which is which) as they have (I believe) the spiral entry stairs and a fancier looking exterior. The D series is a little more "utility" looking and is a work horse. I had to change out the double doors with a sedan door and I did not have a rear restroom (I hear those are a real pain to remove). You can follow my build on YouTube under 'Glennman' (a shameful plug for myself). Whichever you choose, have a great time. I think I enjoy building the bus more than I will using it, but it is a lot of fun to drive around. The 45 foot is not a problem at all for me, but as some have mentioned, it may be an issue with some parks. I am building mine to boondock for the most part, but... we'll see.
Glennman, thank you. I will follow your YouTube feed. Sounds like you are doing what I would like to do. Yeah, wiring is a pain. When I dropped a V-8 in my Jeep Wrangle a few years ago, getting the engine into position and engine mounds welded in was the easy part, rewriting and getting 3 computers to talk to each other took a couple of months. But as you stated, I actually enjoy doing that stuff.
I do want to find a newer bus (2007ish and newer) and am willing to pay a little more for it up front understanding I will be dealing with newer technologies. The J model does look good but so far haven't seen one for a reasonable price yet. I'm hoping to stay below the 600k miles mark but for the right bus will go above. So far my search has been online. Next month I'm actually going to start physically looking at them in person. Like car buying, they always look different in person. I did see a beautiful Temsa bus in Saint Augustine a few weeks ago.
Good luck on your build! John
Another thing. When I was looking I found an MCI chart that listed the turning radius for all models of their buses and what I found interesting was that the DL had the same turning circle within about a foot of all the earlier coaches. That doesn't take into account the overhang or maybe the width but it was an eye opener. Ground clearance may be another matter.
Jim
The Temsa is a Turkish bus mostly with parts from China I would not buy one for the long run,a casino here owns 2 and are not happy with the buses for service and parts
Another source is auctions. Richie Brothers is a good place to start as they keep alot of info on the website. Particularly, sold and past auction detals. I have watched a number of crazy good deals and was seriously considering buying to flip. I think based on watching the auctions and actually talking to some tire kickers during preview at one, there are foreign buyers so there is some support to prices but it is very low as they have lots of costs to deal with duties and transport.
Given you can see something dozens at one time, it could be worth the cost to make the trip if you are serious about this path. One consideration with good and bad is the ones that just came out of service, you can tell by various dated random stuff if you look. This means they were running, coming from commercial service means all the safety checks were done and passed, mechanical stuff is more debatable.
Some will say, units planned for decommishing will defer maintenance. This is reasonable for stuff that is not safety or critical for basic mechanical operation. I do agree, what can be deferred is delayed, why put money into something that is out of the fleet soon.
Taking that to the next step, big stuff like engines and much stuff starts getting long in tooth around 700-800k. No surprise you see many on the block uner 1m and plenty in this 600-700 range. So be careful you are not buying potential big ticket problems.
But, overall, there are a lot of adnvantages to get a bus that was on the road in the not too distant past.
One more time - just go buy an already converted bus with your budget. You and your wife will be trilled to be cruising and enjoying life. There are too many unfortunate failed dream stories not just here where many just don't get done to enjoy the fruits of all the passion, hard work, and money spent.
If you want to get greasy even on a bus, get an old classic and have at it between your great road trips. Really.
addendum - Man, it is hard to take that route. I so wanted to do a DIY early on. But sage advice and wisdom sunk into this knucklehead's thick stuff, reality seeped in enough to take that route. I found an incredible conversion and man did I do the right thing. It has worked flawless over 5 years. Tires, oil, small stuff. Best decision ever.
But, I still get the urge do do a DIY today. I watch the actions and man, do I want to do it but it just doesn't work for me.
One last thought, I am so lucky that I have so few basic mechanical/electrical issues. There is a lot of crap that breaks all the time. Propane refrigerator pilot flame goes wonky, the fantastic fan thermostat quits, the windows stick, water leak around one window that I can not figure out where it leaks, blinds keep not staying uo=p, and on and on so much little stuff. I have solar and lithium that takes time to fine tune etc. Some sort of corrosion in the headlight ground keeps lights from full brightness. There is a never ending punch list. Good luck
You want to enjoy it now or in 10 Years when done? And coach just keeps aging. Buy one converted now. You'll have PLENTY of things to repair, rebuild, modify as long as you have it. Cliff finally figured it out and bought a converted one. What if your health takes a dive in 3 or 4 years and only partially finished?
Again, depends on what you want. I've been real happy with building my conversion so far but it was a little scary at first. Lots of bad stuff could have happened but so far I've met every challenge. There is a lot of satisfaction in that. Of course, I'm not everyone and never wanted to be. My 68 years have taught me some mad skills and I have a well and broadly equipped workshop perfectly suited to my abilities. Without that I don't think it would have been such a great idea and certainly would be a bigger challenge. For instance I just put the last coat of urethane on the custom mahogany cabinet doors I built for the custom cabinets I built to go under the custom countertops I built and had Spring Grove Sheet Metal cover in stainless. That was all cabinetry work and I am not a cabinet maker. But some skills cross over. It's not a showpiece but that was never my goal and perfection is and always will be the enemy of good enough. That's not to say it doesn't look good, but I can tell the difference between that and professional work. Hard to say if anyone else will notice.
Next will probably be to build the waste tanks. I have very little experience at all with welding plastic, yet I will be ordering hundreds of dollars worth of 5/16" thick plastic sheet just so I can cut it up into smaller pieces and then try to stick it back together, an entirely new thing for me. Can I do it? If I didn't think so I don't think I would try but who's to say? Tune in next week etc, etc. It just goes on and on that way, practically every thing you touch. Lots of new challenges and lots of new things to learn. This all takes time of course but if you Have the time and the interest it can be pretty rewarding. As rewarding as jumping in a complete CC or something and hitting the road? Maybe. Maybe not.
Jim
Jim,
I think it's great you have provided a constant and regular presence her, starting from i think even before getting the bus. I remember you stated on day one, this is a five year project. What each person needs to do is some serious soul searching on what they want from doing it from scratch.
It seems there is satisfaction from the challenge of having to ponder, research, evaluate options, develop a design, gather materials, figure out how to build that piece, do it, maybe do it again but you get what you wanted in the end. Repeat for most all larger components of the build.
You also have a wide variety of skills and time to invest in all the necessary steps to do it properly. You must have a place to you can layout all this stuff for a long time. You also demostrate a lot of perserverence and tolerance for adversity.
Sounds like I am heaping a lot of adjulation on you and I am. Fottunately, your health and other distractions in life have not derailed your dream build.
I'd love to tell every new DIY that think about it but go for it. Most won't make it.
That said, you see plenty of skoolies converted so what do they do and think differently that seems to get them on the road? Maybe the level of done and what is built is a lower bar than we busuts.
I sure don't want to send new DIY off discouraged but they really do need to research fully before such a massive undertaking.
Quote from: luvrbus on September 27, 2022, 08:00:28 AM
The Temsa is a Turkish bus mostly with parts from China I would not buy one for the long run,a casino here owns 2 and are not happy with the buses for service and parts
Thanks for the advice. They sure look good though. There are several available at the Temsa headquarters in Orlando. I may go look at them just to gauge them and have a basis to compare to others. Again, I'm not in a hurry so will research the crap out it before diving in. As far as parts from China, that almost to impossible to avoid with todays parts shortages...
Quote from: epretot on September 26, 2022, 07:35:39 PM
Come on! You guys are suggesting an already converted bus?
Where is the fun in that?
If I can do it, anyone can.
I feel you on this one. I am extremely picky about how things are built. My wife calls this anal retentive. I also just plain want to do it myself. I get the advice to buy an already converted bus and appreciate everyone's desire to help me avoid the pain of a build, but I wont learn as much by buying a finished product. My travel plans can't be realized for another couple of years when I fully retire. Until I have plenty of time to build.
That said, after I get a chance to research all this, I may decide it's not worth the pain. But for now, the research continues.
If you go the DIY route I'd suggest you visit and explore as many bus conversions as you can before doing any final planning. Doing this will give you a much more realistic idea of what you'll be working with, which methods & techniques work well, and which only look good on paper but not so much in a bus.
Most bus owners are happy to show off their bus, and depending on where you are there might be quite a few within an hour's drive that you could learn from.
Quote from: ltcinfantry on September 27, 2022, 06:30:32 PM
I feel you on this one. I am extremely picky about how things are built. My wife calls this anal retentive. I also just plain want to do it myself. I get the advice to buy an already converted bus and appreciate everyone's desire to help me avoid the pain of a build, but I wont learn as much by buying a finished product. My travel plans can't be realized for another couple of years when I fully retire. Until I have plenty of time to build.
Itcinfantry -IIRC, you mentioned that you're in the Orlando area? If so, and after Ian blows thru, perhaps you should do some intelligence gathering research by taking a few relatively short road trips - one down to Stuart, one to San Antonio, and one to Sanford.
Stuart is the FL base for Liberty Coach.
San Antonio is the FL base for Marathon Coaches.
Sanford is FL's base for Featherlite/Vantaré Coaches. It's also the home of Donnie Myers Luxury Coach, who does all types of refurbishments.
I would start at Liberty in Stuart. Go down, take a close look at several of their rigs. Meander thru the interiors, closely looking at how things are put together, the fit and finish, the space utilization, the various layouts. Have your wife poke thru drawers, cabinets - all the household things that appeal to her. Examine the bays, see how they're laid out, look at the plumbing, the genset bay, the house electrical bay, the storage bay. Take copious notes and lots of photos.
Next go to San Antonio to check out the Marathons. Folk say these are often "rolling bordellos," but that type of interior appeals to some people. But, just like at Liberty, look closely at the interior construction, the system integrations, the various floorplans, the layouts in the bays, and so forth. Marathon's philosophy is different than Liberty's, you'll see the contrast. Again, copious notes and lots of photos.
Now it's time for a ride over to Sanford, home of Featherlite/Vantaré and Donnie Myers Luxury Coach. Go to Featherlite first, and take a look at their Vantaré line of conversions. Again, a different philosophy that may, or may not, be along the lines of what you're envisioning. I, personally, have a 30-year-old Vantaré, and I thoroughly enjoy it, especially since I live in mine 24/5/365. I especially like the simplicity of their house systems and the accessibility of items downstairs. More notes and photos again!
To Donnie Myers shop next - he's only a few blocks away from Featherlite. Donnie does a lot of refurbishing of the majors, so he's familiar with just about all the pro conversions out there. The man is a wealth of information, and can give you valuable information concerning what to look for and what to avoid. But he also has a business to run, so be respectful of his time.
These three trips are going to really be an eye-opener, for both you and your wife. You're both going to see that the majority of interiors are bedroom in the back, the bath, the galley, and finally the front lounge. So not a lot of wiggle room, because some item's placement is dependent on downstairs, too (like the toilet being directly over the black water tank, for example.) Also, since you're wife's an interior decorator, she's going to look at the interiors far differently than you will, not only from a decorating standpoint, bus also functionality. (And I'm sure you know about making sure mama's happy!)
From my perspective after 35 years in the bus industry, the best "bang for the buck" right now in the conversion market is a 1995 - 2000, non-slide, forty-foot coach. It will have the more desirable Series 60 Detroit Diesel with the least amount of smog equipment on it, and an Allison automatic transmission, it will be 102" wide, which makes a LOT of difference inside, it's the most popular size, and they can go nearly anywhere a 35-footer can go. I would stick to the two major players - MCI and Prevost, primarily due to parts and service availability nation-wide. My personal preference is also a non-slide out chassis, as they're less prone to water leaks and mechanical issues (they're also often less expensive, since so many people want slide-outs nowadays.)
Now, one last item: You're in FL. That gives you a huge advantage over other people looking for a bus conversion, simply because of the sheer number of coaches in that state. Which also means, should you decide to go the more intelligent route of buying a pro conversion and remodeling, that tremendous deals can be found, especially if you go searching via uncommon routes: auctions, estate sales, consignments, etc. Somebody once said that FL is "God's Waiting Room," thus the opportunity for picking up a rig where the owner has "aged out" of his ability to drive can happen - that's how I got a smokin' deal on my Vantaré!
So there you have it, my nickel's worth of suggestions, but you get 3¢ change!
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
RJ
Quote from: RJ on September 28, 2022, 05:04:44 AM
Itcinfantry -
IIRC, you mentioned that you're in the Orlando area? If so, and after Ian blows thru, perhaps you should do some intelligence gathering research by taking a few relatively short road trips - one down to Stuart, one to San Antonio, and one to Sanford.
Stuart is the FL base for Liberty Coach.
San Antonio is the FL base for Marathon Coaches.
Sanford is FL's base for Featherlite/Vantaré Coaches. It's also the home of Donnie Myers Luxury Coach, who does all types of refurbishments.
I would start at Liberty in Stuart. Go down, take a close look at several of their rigs. Meander thru the interiors, closely looking at how things are put together, the fit and finish, the space utilization, the various layouts. Have your wife poke thru drawers, cabinets - all the household things that appeal to her. Examine the bays, see how they're laid out, look at the plumbing, the genset bay, the house electrical bay, the storage bay. Take copious notes and lots of photos.
Next go to San Antonio to check out the Marathons. Folk say these are often "rolling bordellos," but that type of interior appeals to some people. But, just like at Liberty, look closely at the interior construction, the system integrations, the various floorplans, the layouts in the bays, and so forth. Marathon's philosophy is different than Liberty's, you'll see the contrast. Again, copious notes and lots of photos.
Now it's time for a ride over to Sanford, home of Featherlite/Vantaré and Donnie Myers Luxury Coach. Go to Featherlite first, and take a look at their Vantaré line of conversions. Again, a different philosophy that may, or may not, be along the lines of what you're envisioning. I, personally, have a 30-year-old Vantaré, and I thoroughly enjoy it, especially since I live in mine 24/5/365. I especially like the simplicity of their house systems and the accessibility of items downstairs. More notes and photos again!
To Donnie Myers shop next - he's only a few blocks away from Featherlite. Donnie does a lot of refurbishing of the majors, so he's familiar with just about all the pro conversions out there. The man is a wealth of information, and can give you valuable information concerning what to look for and what to avoid. But he also has a business to run, so be respectful of his time.
These three trips are going to really be an eye-opener, for both you and your wife. You're both going to see that the majority of interiors are bedroom in the back, the bath, the galley, and finally the front lounge. So not a lot of wiggle room, because some item's placement is dependent on downstairs, too (like the toilet being directly over the black water tank, for example.) Also, since you're wife's an interior decorator, she's going to look at the interiors far differently than you will, not only from a decorating standpoint, bus also functionality. (And I'm sure you know about making sure mama's happy!)
From my perspective after 35 years in the bus industry, the best "bang for the buck" right now in the conversion market is a 1995 - 2000, non-slide, forty-foot coach. It will have the more desirable Series 60 Detroit Diesel with the least amount of smog equipment on it, and an Allison automatic transmission, it will be 102" wide, which makes a LOT of difference inside, it's the most popular size, and they can go nearly anywhere a 35-footer can go. I would stick to the two major players - MCI and Prevost, primarily due to parts and service availability nation-wide. My personal preference is also a non-slide out chassis, as they're less prone to water leaks and mechanical issues (they're also often less expensive, since so many people want slide-outs nowadays.)
Now, one last item: You're in FL. That gives you a huge advantage over other people looking for a bus conversion, simply because of the sheer number of coaches in that state. Which also means, should you decide to go the more intelligent route of buying a pro conversion and remodeling, that tremendous deals can be found, especially if you go searching via uncommon routes: auctions, estate sales, consignments, etc. Somebody once said that FL is "God's Waiting Room," thus the opportunity for picking up a rig where the owner has "aged out" of his ability to drive can happen - that's how I got a smokin' deal on my Vantaré!
So there you have it, my nickel's worth of suggestions, but you get 3¢ change!
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
RJ
Wow—nice post RJ. Sounds like a really good idea. I didn't know all these places were in Florida—I transplanted here 3 years ago when I retired and got tired of being cold. I'm still in my 50s and in great health so still young enough to do a conversion and have plenty of time to travel. So once things settle down around here we will venture out to these places.
This may be a dumb question but what do you think a good price range is for a used professional conversion? So far when I'm looked at used Class As they are in the $200k-$400k which is way outside my budget. I wanted to have a finished project preferably below $100k. Is this even realistic or do I need to adjust my expectations?
Quote from: richard5933 on September 28, 2022, 04:07:47 AM
If you go the DIY route I'd suggest you visit and explore as many bus conversions as you can before doing any final planning. Doing this will give you a much more realistic idea of what you'll be working with, which methods & techniques work well, and which only look good on paper but not so much in a bus.
Most bus owners are happy to show off their bus, and depending on where you are there might be quite a few within an hour's drive that you could learn from.
Richard, thank you. Following yours and RJs recommendations I will do that. I'm very cognizant of layout restrictions related to plumbing, AC, electrical. My wife and I work together on this with me usually being the spoiler with "you can't do this" due to structural constraints. We've don't this with house remodels in the past.
Quote from: ltcinfantry on September 28, 2022, 05:50:57 AM
Richard, thank you. Following yours and RJs recommendations I will do that. I'm very cognizant of layout restrictions related to plumbing, AC, electrical. My wife and I work together on this with me usually being the spoiler with "you can't do this" due to structural constraints. We've don't this with house remodels in the past.
I think this is a good plan. As I saw other buses I often said to myself something like, "Oh - that would have been much easier than what I did."
Good to see how others have conquered a problem, especially if you get to see their 3rd or 4th version and learn what didn't work on the earlier iterations. Saves a lot of time, money, and aggravation.
When you go window shopping at the Prevost dealers in FL don't tell the salesman you are looking to spend a 100k,new coaches are loaded with electronics but who needs to sit in a recliner with a remote that controls everything but the toilet,All the electronic in my coach is the only thing I don't like about my Country Coach they are a PITA for older guys lol
An electric recliner comes to mind,, there is no way to exit one in a hurry,, you are "trapped" for what seems like 5 minutes until it becomes upright before you can get out of the damn thing..>>>Dan
I think RJ's advice is dead on the money. Then after you have seen and done all that, with eyes wide open you can begin to plan your features list and with that start shopping. At that point you still may not have decided whether to build or buy but you will know what you want and have some idea of what it will cost you either way.
For example, your list may include the S-60 and B500, alloy wheels, and leveling jacks just for starters. That's enough to begin narrowing the choices right there. How many full sized rigs have leveling jacks?
In my case two things lobbied massively for the build route: An unreasonably low budget, and my absolute insistence that I have jacks, and the two are directly opposed no matter what you do. For me building it was the only way I even had a chance. BUT, as a result of that decision I am now the proud owner of potentially the best leveling jacks to ever have been installed on a bus and my cost was in the ballpark of a grand. Which left more for the rest of the build. One of my greatest joys in fact has been finding (often unconventional) ways to stretch the budget. I have a 275 gallon stainless fresh water tank because I was able to re-purpose an old piece of equipment and I doubt I have more than a hundred bucks in it. On some things you just have to spend money, but I started this build with about a $15K bankroll and I still have a third of it left. Granted I've made purchases out-of-pocket when I could, but to me a $100K budget would look like incredible luxury. If I had that and found a bus with jacks in that price range? Well it'd be hard not to buy it.
BTW Windtrader, thanks so much for the compliments. It means a lot coming from you. You guys gave me guidance when I knew next to nothing about what I was getting into and helped me see a reasonably clear path forward. I don't recall who mentioned it but I'll never forget the suggestion about using semi-trailer landing gear for the leveling jacks. That was a major contribution.
Jim
and Florida is a good place to hit the bus gathings and talk to people that have done conversions.
It is kinda of dirty word here on the board but the school bus people have amazing ideas for bus conversions plus the detail of the interior work just blows you away on some of the school buses
Quote from: luvrbus on September 28, 2022, 09:38:24 AM
It is kinda of dirty word here on the board but the school bus people have amazing ideas for bus conversions plus the detail of the interior work just blows you away on some of the school buses
Yeah, I've looked at a bunch of the layouts on Skoolie.net and on Pinterest. We were looking at those first but after some research decided the base chassis and drivetrains were not suitable for long range highway use. Also lack of basement or at least space for HVAC, plumbing and electrical components sealed the deal.
Most of those guys will admit they wished they could have found a activity model of school buses with the bays Thomas and Blue Bird both make those and they bring more money at sales too
ltcinfantry
Quote:[This may be a dumb question but what do you think a good price range is for a used professional conversion? So far when I'm looked at used Class As they are in the $200k-$400k which is way outside my budget. I wanted to have a finished project preferably below $100k. Is this even realistic or do I need to adjust my expectations?]:Quote
You could look in the classified right up here on BCM and there is a nice Prevost for $59,000.00 and some others too.
https://www.prevost-stuff.com/
People on here constantly want to add elaborate systems to their coach. 10 years down the road will you remember how to repair, or diagnose? Kiss is to be remembered for long term satisfaction. Some forget the goal is to travel and enjoy the experience of getting away. I guess to others the goal is the challenge of building one rather than use it much. With the incredible fuel costs anymore, maybe just something to busy oneselves with. What are the plans if fuel ends at $7.00 Per gallon or higher permantly?
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 28, 2022, 03:31:23 PM
People on here constantly want to add elaborate systems to their coach. 10 years down the road will you remember how to repair, or diagnose? Kiss is to be remembered for long term satisfaction. Some forget the goal is to travel and enjoy the experience of getting away. I guess to others the goal is the challenge of building one rather than use it much. With the incredible fuel costs anymore, maybe just something to busy oneselves with. What are the plans if fuel ends at $7.00 Per gallon or higher permantly?
Leave it home and fly. The road trip is always an adventure but the most expensive part of the trip now!
Summary: fuel expense... FL-AK-FL
10,000 mile round trip fuel expense.
2016 $4700. .47/mile
2019 $5400. .54/mile
2022 $8000. .80/mile
The 3rd most recent trip was more like work but now yields us a place w/o the bus...
Priorities shifted but the ability to make the trip remain.
202? $2000. Total transportation flying for two & use the rest for play.
:^
Dan is an excellent example of a person who plans ahead and has a backup plan. Fuel costs are forcing everyone (except the super wealthy) to plan shorter trips and longer stays. Manual transmissions might even make a comeback (not likely), but there are automated 10 speeds that would help fuel mileage.
Transmission don't get any better than the Allison World B500 with the double overdrive in a bus IMO
This whole bus thing is bring out the underlying groups of interest.
Like Jim and some others like new huy, wha'ts your name, update your signature, thaking on massive 5 years projects and wantng a big DKIY project, go for it. Some enjoy it and get to get it on the road and do wiat others want straight away.
Group two is the RV crowd. Want to buy and go, enjoy, and have fun. Tomorrow you can be dead.
Grouo three is those where value is not really in their vocabluarly. I'd best those buying new Marathons for personal use, tax shelter aside, are going to use it no matter what it costs to fuel up, pay dealer maintenance costs, pay to store in a climate and humity controlled hanger. They probably even have access to at least a prtial-ownership in a private plane to take them to their vacation home in Vail. Very small group that is.
Group four - mostly us here. Have limited funds to throw into this discretionlary recreational vehicle. Many here work on their own coaches for fun and to save money and not wanting to feel pain if paying dealer/shop rates for everything,
Group five - Those full timers that need to keep their coaches in running order, both for daily living and for moving on down the road as season changes. They are going be very cost conscious and DIY when they can.
So, all that said, what is the point? New folks just need to think through all the variables before writing any checks. List all these considerations and vote and rank them. It will sharpen your thinking about what you want and need to shop for.
There is no one answer. I am guilty of almost universally saying go buy a used converted bus but upon reflection of what I just wrote, I am changing to a jukebox answer. Lots of different ways to go, do what works for your needs and desires.
People with cash buy the Prevost to get the $3000.00 a day deprecation,my Doctor buys a new Prevost every 5 years for taxes lol he is in group 3
Thanks Don. Very thoughtful and helpful post. I would put myself partially in group 1 and mostly in group 4. I enjoy a good project but have a somewhat limited budget and expectations of finishing in under 2 years start to finish. Buying a rig straight out doesn't appeal to me but understand. I did all my suspension work on my Tundra myself while my friend who owns a Jeep and has little skills (or patience) paid a lot of money to have his Jeep lifted. Needless to say I spent a great deal less for labor allowing me to use higher end components for my lift. That's my mindset. Don't pay for work you are capable (and willing) of doing yourself.
Quote from: luvrbus on September 29, 2022, 12:13:48 PM
People with cash buy the Prevost to get the $3000.00 a day deprecation,my Doctor buys a new Prevost every 5 years for taxes lol he is in group 3
Ha I still have Clifford to thank for talking us out of a Gorgeous H-3 45 Marathon a few years back. Or first bus a model 15 Silver Eagle was to be my DIYer but building coaches @B&B Coachworks was taking up all of my time. Building it with the intent of fulltiming some day it got put in the back burner. Sold it to someone that wanted to finish it. We are fulltiming now and still ended up buying the bus we fell in love with, Ace Rossi' H-3 40 as it was pretty much done and now are just doing upgrades. Being retired and fulltiming affords us the luxury of traveling as much as we want for as long as we want, if we want with no worries.
Get a pre owned conversion (or new) if you want to travel now or build your own, no wrong way in this hobby/lifestyle. Camp or Glamp just do it ;)
Retired Armored
Cavalry Soldier.
Quote from: windtrader on September 29, 2022, 11:47:27 AM
This whole bus thing is bring out the underlying groups of interest...
Maybe also a Group 6... The guys that are into vintage vehicles and choose vintage buses because of what they are, maybe you could also say in spite of what they are.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on September 29, 2022, 07:02:35 AM
Dan is an excellent example of a person who plans ahead and has a backup plan. Fuel costs are forcing everyone (except the super wealthy) to plan shorter trips and longer stays. Manual transmissions might even make a comeback (not likely), but there are automated 10 speeds that would help fuel mileage.
Thanks for the kind words Walter. The word "forced" in front of your mention of backup plan fits better.
Want to make mention of You & the Mrs. coming to the Random Acts of Camping rally in Napannee IN w/o your bus to meet people like us that have been chatting Forum for a spell. It is great to put a person to the name.