Hello all,
When we sit for a while, I disconnect the main power switch and turn on our battery tender.
I then turn off the battery tender and turn on the main battery switch. When I go to start the beast.
I'm not sure this procedure is related to my problem or not, but, the DDEC doesn't come on reliably.
Today I started the bus several times working on another thing and so far the DDEC has not come on.
Should I disconnect when hooking up the battery tender? Am I causing this to happen? What triggers the DDEC turning on?
Any other ideas?
Thanks
Seb
The DDEC power wires are supposed to be connected directly to the battery. Follow the wiring diagram and you should find they are not connected after the battery switch. If they are maybe you should change the power leads to be directly off the 12 volt section of the battery bank.
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 09, 2022, 05:21:48 PM
The DDEC power wires are supposed to be connected directly to the battery. Follow the wiring diagram and you should find they are not connected after the battery switch. If they are maybe you should change the power leads to be directly off the 12 volt section of the battery bank.
Hmmm, I don't know if they are connected before or afterthe battery switch. I just assumed after in that I assumed the battery switch disconnected everything.
Ok, well then I guess that my disconnecting the battery would not be an issue.
The mystery continues.
Seb
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 09, 2022, 05:21:48 PM
The DDEC power wires are supposed to be connected directly to the battery. Follow the wiring diagram and you should find they are not connected after the battery switch. If they are maybe you should change the power leads to be directly off the 12 volt section of the battery bank.
Hmmm, I don't know if they are connected before or afterthe battery switch. I just assumed after in that I assumed the battery switch disconnected everything.
Ok, well then I guess that my disconnecting the battery would not be an issue.
The mystery continues.
Seb
Well, now I started up again, and this time the DDEC lit up.
I wish I knew why it comes on sometimes and not other times.
It does seem that when we are traveling every day and don't disconnect main power it just works every day. It seems that when we sit for a week or a month is when this happens.
Seb
What in the world are you talking about the small panel on the dash on the DL, ;D ? the DDEC lit up or you would still be trying to start the engine , the DDEC is on all the time the disconnect switch will not shut the power off to it.All the fuses are in the battery box on the DL except for the shift pad it is under the driver's window in the fuse box,you lost me on this one
Quote from: luvrbus on September 09, 2022, 06:22:44 PM
What in the world are you talking about the small panel on the dash on the DL, ;D ? the DDEC lit up or you would still be trying to start the engine , the DDEC is on all the time the disconnect switch will not shut the power off to it.All the fuses are in the battery box on the DL except for the shift pad it is under the driver's window in the fuse box,you lost me on this one
Yes, that small panel in the middle. And when it doesn't light up, I have no high idle, or turn signals. There are probably other things that aren't functioning when it doesn't come on, IE. light up.
The engine does start with it not lit up. The second day I owned it, I drive it without it lit up, that's how I know I don't have turn signals when not lit.
Puzzling, huh
Thanks for chiming in. I truly appreciate your input. I just would like to feel confident that this will function when ready to roll and wonder what is going on and would like to address it if there is a problem.
Seb
When you start the engine do you wait till the CEL and SEL go out before starting? You are to wait till the computer runs a self diagnosis. After the lights go out you start the engine. Sounds like you have a few bad connections.
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 09, 2022, 09:00:08 PM
When you start the engine do you wait till the CEL and SEL go out before starting? You are to wait till the computer runs a self diagnosis. After the lights go out you start the engine. Sounds like you have a few bad connections.
Hello Bill,
You may be onto something here. I just hit the master switch and then the start switch.
What do CEL and SEL stand for. Geussing they may be lights on the dash to wait for?
Thanks
Seb
Quote from: Sebulba on September 09, 2022, 08:05:40 PM
Yes, that small panel in the middle. And when it doesn't light up, I have no high idle, or turn signals. There are probably other things that aren't functioning when it doesn't come on, IE. light up.
The engine does start with it not lit up. The second day I owned it, I drive it without it lit up, that's how I know I don't have turn signals when not lit.
Puzzling, huh
Thanks for chiming in. I truly appreciate your input. I just would like to feel confident that this will function when ready to roll and wonder what is going on and would like to address it if there is a problem.
Seb
The information panel has a plug end harness it just needs cleaning no fast idle the cruise will not work either ,the turn signals should work they just don't show, the joys of electronics will keep you busy
The SEL (red one) stands for stop engine light which will shut the engine down. It is a major fault. The CEL (yellow one) is for minor faults. It warns you of an issue but won't shut you down. You should have a momentary switch located near the lights which will put the lights into a test mode and if all good will flash 25 on each one.
Some years ago my engine would occasionally die without warning while driving, but it would always restart just fine. One day I had the engine idling, then turned on the headlights to check them: the engine died as soon as I switched on the lights. Evidently I had an electrical fault with the DDEC's power supply, but where? I eventually found that the main 100A feed from the rear start panel to the front junction box had badly corroded 4AWG cables in and out of its Class H fuse. I replaced the cables and cleaned the fuse's contacts, and I've never had the problem ever again. The corrosion was causing enough voltage drop at the front JB to make the DDEC power relay there disengage, cutting power to the ECM. Moral of the story: cable resistance will cause erratic DDEC performance.
DDEC fast idle is a product of two resistors in the PTO circuit from the DDEC Vehicle Interface Harness to the accelerator pedal that mimics the pedal being partially depressed: fast idle is not created in the ECM itself, but is part of the pedal's circuit. With Bill Gerrie's help I rebuilt my fast idle because there was corrosion at the resistors causing it to sometimes not work, or to work insufficiently. (I now have the world's only two-speed fast idle! Why not?) Again, corrosion was causing weird inconsistent glitches.
I suggest you go through and clean every wire and connector, including all grounds to chassis.
John
If I read your thread correctly. you have a 60 serries ddec late 1997ish. Prob ddec III. pre egr(that's great!) The working of ddec is not as complicated as it sounds. Your engine will not start without it!! It controls injectors Fuel supply. Also timming of them. Couple of must. Will not do this without power seperate from main elect system. requires direct battery connection for power+ and neg-.Main reason for this is memory. A seperate power supply from ign switch Wire code 439 + is required to wake unit (that is bus system source for power) =main disconnect on. Been there on this one as I have built total electrical system from burned out system on my 98 prevost. The other front end info system is exactly that. Clean connector of check grounds on coach side. Clifford has been there on this and some of novices have also. You might have DDEC IV there was a change in late 90's My 2000 -60 serries is IV. Bob
You always need to remember the Detroit responsibility stops at the ECM anything past the ECM is the OEM responsibility and that varies a lot from 1 manufacture to another, 99% of the troubles are on the OEM side
Quote from: Iceni John on September 10, 2022, 03:22:45 PM
Some years ago my engine would occasionally die without warning while driving, but it would always restart just fine. One day I had the engine idling, then turned on the headlights to check them: the engine died as soon as I switched on the lights. Evidently I had an electrical fault with the DDEC's power supply, but where? I eventually found that the main 100A feed from the rear start panel to the front junction box had badly corroded 4AWG cables in and out of its Class H fuse. I replaced the cables and cleaned the fuse's contacts, and I've never had the problem ever again. The corrosion was causing enough voltage drop at the front JB to make the DDEC power relay there disengage, cutting power to the ECM. Moral of the story: cable resistance will cause erratic DDEC performance.
DDEC fast idle is a product of two resistors in the PTO circuit from the DDEC Vehicle Interface Harness to the accelerator pedal that mimics the pedal being partially depressed: fast idle is not created in the ECM itself, but is part of the pedal's circuit. With Bill Gerrie's help I rebuilt my fast idle because there was corrosion at the resistors causing it to sometimes not work, or to work insufficiently. (I now have the world's only two-speed fast idle! Why not?) Again, corrosion was causing weird inconsistent glitches.
I suggest you go through and clean every wire and connector, including all grounds to chassis.
John
Wow! Like Luvrbus mentioned "always fun dealing with electronics"
Similar experience with a Ford van I had. I would run out of electricity. I replace starters. I bought new batteries. Everything would be fine then randomly would run out of electricity. Finally had a auto electric guy look at it. He carefully felt along the wires from the alternator and found a wire that was corroded under the insulation to the pont that sometimes it would disconnect. Replaced that wire and never had a problem.
Thanks for the input.
Se
Quote from: robertglines1 on September 10, 2022, 05:59:50 PM
If I read your thread correctly. you have a 60 serries ddec late 1997ish. Prob ddec III. pre egr(that's great!) The working of ddec is not as complicated as it sounds. Your engine will not start without it!! It controls injectors Fuel supply. Also timming of them. Couple of must. Will not do this without power seperate from main elect system. requires direct battery connection for power+ and neg-.Main reason for this is memory. A seperate power supply from ign switch Wire code 439 + is required to wake unit (that is bus system source for power) =main disconnect on. Been there on this one as I have built total electrical system from burned out system on my 98 prevost. The other front end info system is exactly that. Clean connector of check grounds on coach side. Clifford has been there on this and some of novices have also. You might have DDEC IV there was a change in late 90's My 2000 -60 serries is IV. Bob
Hello Robert,
Going to have to digest your post, but I'm learning.
How can I tell if it is III or IV? Might be good to know in future.
Also since DDEC is always hot direct to battery, what about when a guy changes batteries, this obviously disconnecting DDEC from power? Lost memory or can it handle short disconnect?
Thanks a million.
Seb
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 10, 2022, 08:23:05 AM
The SEL (red one) stands for stop engine light which will shut the engine down. It is a major fault. The CEL (yellow one) is for minor faults. It warns you of an issue but won't shut you down. You should have a momentary switch located near the lights which will put the lights into a test mode and if all good will flash 25 on each one.
Hello Bill,
So, when I hit main power I am supposed to see lights like these? I will check tomorrow.
I have never noticed anything like this, but haven't looked for them.
The wait till they go out to start engine?
I just read the engine start procedure in my manual and it just says to turn on main power and hit start.
Not sure what I'm missing.
Thanks
Seb
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 10, 2022, 08:23:05 AM
The SEL (red one) stands for stop engine light which will shut the engine down. It is a major fault. The CEL (yellow one) is for minor faults. It warns you of an issue but won't shut you down. You should have a momentary switch located near the lights which will put the lights into a test mode and if all good will flash 25 on each one.
Hello Bill,
I just turned on main power and saw nothing like SEL or CEL light up.
The momentary switch you mentioned, do you mean the one that lights up all of the dash lights? I pressed it and saw nothing that looked like SEL or CEL.
Flash 25? Sorry don't know what youean by that.
Boy, I've kinda been a motorhead all.my life, but these are a whole knew animal
Thanks for you patience and assistance.
Seb
Quote from: luvrbus on September 10, 2022, 04:52:54 AM
The information panel has a plug end harness it just needs cleaning no fast idle the cruise will not work either ,the turn signals should work they just don't show, the joys of electronics will keep you busy
Hello Luvrbus,
Maybe the connector to that little box on the dash or elsewhere.
I did take the box off and this disconnect it and put it back. The connector looked ok, but I didn't actually clean it.
FYI these symptoms are not different before or after that removal and replacement of the DDEC dash box.
Thanks
Seb
Quote from: luvrbus on September 10, 2022, 07:06:49 PM
You always need to remember the Detroit responsibility stops at the ECM anything past the ECM is the OEM responsibility and that varies a lot from 1 manufacture to another, 99% of the troubles are on the OEM side
Hmmm,
Seb
You DDEC has a backup battery inside the ECM
Quote from: luvrbus on September 11, 2022, 05:29:23 AM
You DDEC has a backup battery inside the ECM
Ok, good to know
Thanks
The many variables...
Stock, the computers bypass the main disconnect, to keep the computers "alive" for regular operations.
For a busnut, that's a battery drain when the coach gets parked or stored for extended periods.
If changed to be switched, those computers may need time to come back to life, after being disconnected via a battery cut-out switch?
Add in the internal battery, as luvrbus notes, if it is unhealthy... never met any kind of computer that operated correctly, once the internal battery stopped functioning correctly...
The lack of start-up system check SEL and CEL, does it correspond with the other loss of function of the Driver Display, et al?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
The SEL and CEL are not activated by the main disconnect those are activated by the ignition switch on the dash ,turn on the disconnect then the ignition switch the lights should come on for a few seconds then go off ,it is not going to start if SEL and the CEL are not working
to retrieve codes you could need to turn switch to power. Stop don't start. then off and on to power again(don't start.. codes should appear. Most common problems with communication harness is corrosion at Deutch 31 pin connector.//connects engine harness to coach wiring harness. 2nd most is grounds corrosion. 3rd dang mice chewing wires..
Check the bulb sockets for corrasion on the SEL and CEL
Here is another way of checking out what is going on.
On the right side of your DDEC you will find two plugs. The upper will disengage if you use a hooked tool or small screwdriver to release the latch.
The lower is held in place with a bolt that has a 1/4 head. A nutdriver is the tool for removing.
Take them both loose from the computer. On the upper, which is main power supply, the red and black wires are about 12g. You should have 12Vpos on the reds when comparing to the grounds on the plug (blacks).
On the bottom plug, second row from the bottom, position B3 (pink wire) you should have 12V Pos when the ignition is on.
This quick test is going to tell you if the DDEC is getting the power it requires. If it is, then your problems are all up front with the lights or circuits that power the indicator lights.
Be very careful in replacing the lower 30 pin connector to ensure you don't bend any of the pins on the computer.
Quote from: luvrbus on September 11, 2022, 07:13:46 AM
The SEL and CEL are not activated by the main disconnect those are activated by the ignition switch on the dash ,turn on the disconnect then the ignition switch the lights should come on for a few seconds then go off ,it is not going to start if SEL and the CEL are not working
Ok, I still don't find SEL or CEL.
Are they in the right and left idiot light panels?
If so, I looked in my operators manual and see nothing saying that.
Thanks.
I really appreciate your help.
Seb
Seb, does this website help you at all? I can hear the frustration you are having.
https://busdoc.i.daimler.com/public/fct/_neutral/obd/usa_DDEC_IV.pdf (https://busdoc.i.daimler.com/public/fct/_neutral/obd/usa_DDEC_IV.pdf)
From what I see in your posted pictures, the SEL is Stop Engine and the CEL is Check Engine.
Looks like both the CEL and the SEL are lighted.
Sebulba
How about some pictures of the dash light area. It would help us that are not familiar with your coach help you. All DDEC units operate the same whether GM or MCI or whatever. Need to see your light and intermittent switch set up to help you. Maybe a phone number when you are at the bus might help also.
My son worried with his RV for months,it would throw cat eyes on the shift pad and would not start or just shut down driving,WW Williams spent a month try to find out the problem ,Williams could never get it to duplicate his problems, so they changed a few parts and sent him on way for $3700.00.
He started on his 250 mile voyage from Scottsdale to see us it quit and he had it towed to our place 150 miles.I started checking like always at the battery and found his ECM power lead had 1 strand of wire left in the connection terminal,cut the wire back about 2 inches,installed a new terminal 6 months and it hasn't missed a lick, those things are pretty simple.
Your information center on the D is dropping a ground,the info center is ground energized. Open a account with MCI Tech support and they will tell you what is going on they know their side pretty good .The MCI D has a chassis computer you have to deal with too for lights and gauges
The two lights are lit in picture 1 near the low air light. Now to find out the diagnostic switch or trigger to make them flash out codes.
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 11, 2022, 05:01:07 PM
The two lights are lit in picture 1 near the low air light. Now to find out the diagnostic switch or trigger to make them flash out codes.
The diagnostic switch is on the side of the panel on the driver's side was on our DL,some have a diagnostic switch in the first bay drivers' side behind the door for the breakers on the tunnel,they have test ports there also for the Allison and the engine .DEC the 25th is not far off he needs to ask Santa for a SliverLeaf
Read luvrbus's post. He is very knowledgeable around bus's.
On your instrument panel, check engine and stop engine are the modern equivalants?
Get them to flash the codes.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Flashing codes still require you to take to a shop to clear the codes,the backup battery prevents one from draining the power from the ECM to clear any codes,the Sliverleaf will display the codes, but you cannot erase any codes with the Sliverleaf
I can see you asking Santa for a ProLink for Christmas. HO HO HO
Quote from: usbusin on September 11, 2022, 12:45:33 PM
From what I see in your posted pictures, the SEL is Stop Engine and the CEL is Check Engine.
Looks like both the CEL and the SEL are lighted.
Aha! That was my frustration. I was looking for something that said SEL and CEL.
Thank you.
Seb
Quote from: buswarrior on September 11, 2022, 07:37:44 PM
On your instrument panel, check engine and stop engine are the modern equivalants?
Get them to flash the codes.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Gotcha,. Thanks
Seb
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 11, 2022, 01:54:00 PM
Sebulba
How about some pictures of the dash light area. It would help us that are not familiar with your coach help you. All DDEC units operate the same whether GM or MCI or whatever. Need to see your light and intermittent switch set up to help you. Maybe a phone number when you are at the bus might help also.
Hello,
I posted some pics a couple posts back, but here they are again.
Thanks
Seb
Hello all,
Now I need to find out what a Silver leaf and Pro Link are.
Any links you can share?
Thanks
Seb
Quote from: buswarrior on September 11, 2022, 06:56:59 AM
The many variables...
Stock, the computers bypass the main disconnect, to keep the computers "alive" for regular operations.
For a busnut, that's a battery drain when the coach gets parked or stored for extended periods.
If changed to be switched, those computers may need time to come back to life, after being disconnected via a battery cut-out switch?
Add in the internal battery, as luvrbus notes, if it is unhealthy... never met any kind of computer that operated correctly, once the internal battery stopped functioning correctly...
The lack of start-up system check SEL and CEL, does it correspond with the other loss of function of the Driver Display, et al?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Hello Bus Warrior,
As for battery drain I got the NOCO Genius 2 battery maintainer as per your recommendation. I like it very well. Mounted it in the living area above the batteries and know my batteries are charged every day
Don't use a battery cutout switch. Just the main disconnect that came on the bus. Until this thread I thought that did disconnect everything.
Don't know if the internal battery is functioning or not. Have never disconnected the batteries.
The only loss of function I have noticed when display doesn't light is high idle and turn signals. I know about the turn signals because I drove it once when we first got it with the the DDEC not lit and the signals didn't work. On that instance, I shut it down and started back up after done shopping at Home Depot and the DDEC lit.
Now, of course, I will watch for those two light after turning on main power, and hopefully they will go out then hit start. As I understand that is the correct start procedure.
The operator manual mentioned none of of this.
Thanks
Sevb
Quote from: luvrbus on September 11, 2022, 03:41:19 PM
My son worried with his RV for months,it would throw cat eyes on the shift pad and would not start or just shut down driving,WW Williams spent a month try to find out the problem ,Williams could never get it to duplicate his problems, so they changed a few parts and sent him on way for $3700.00.
He started on his 250 mile voyage from Scottsdale to see us it quit and he had it towed to our place 150 miles.I started checking like always at the battery and found his ECM power lead had 1 strand of wire left in the connection terminal,cut the wire back about 2 inches,installed a new terminal 6 months and it hasn't missed a lick, those things are pretty simple.
Your information center on the D is dropping a ground,the info center is ground energized. Open a account with MCI Tech support and they will tell you what is going on they know their side pretty good .The MCI D has a chassis computer you have to deal with too for lights and gauges
Ok, I will talk to MCI
Thanks
Seb
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 11, 2022, 06:26:46 PM
Read luvrbus's post. He is very knowledgeable around bus's.
I know. I wish I knew a half a percent of what he knows.
Seb
Further to BusWarrior's post about keeping the DDEC always connected to the start batteries even when the main battery disconnect is Off, I discovered why this is important some years ago. I had inadvertently connected my DDEC to the output side of my Cole-Hersee battery disconnect switch, and strange things began to happen. The CEL and SEL would briefly flash on while driving, even with everything showing OK, but the engine never stopped or hiccuped. When starting the engine, the CEL and SEL sometimes would not light at all, or sometimes would flash erratically. This was before I bought a Pro-Link scanner, so I had no way to tell if a real code was being flashed or not. After I realized that the DDEC must always be connected and I had rewired it correctly, there never were any more of these weirdnesses.
DDEC II draws only about 8mA when the engine's not running, so there's no risk of your start batteries running down if they're healthy or they have a maintainer.
John
When you turn the 'ON' switch to run wait for the CEL and SEL lights to go out on their own. About 15 seconds then start engine. This is the DDEC computer self diagnosis.
You will have to find the momentary switch on the dash or side dash. It will be marked diagnostic request or overrule. You have to know where it is to flash codes and also if the computer shuts the engine down in the middle of an RR crossing you have the ability to overrule the computer to move the bus off the road. It will give you a few seconds to get to safety.
I have a pro link scanner with DDEC II & III cartridge to loan locally. (Mesa/phoenix)
In reading all of this, it is my understanding that the ECM has its own internal battery? Something we should be swapping out?
NO. I have never seen one go bad.
You will get code 46 warning you if the battery is getting low keep the batteries charged and they don't bad often www.dieselcontrol.services.
You will need to locate the DDL connection to see if it is a 12 rectangle type or a 6 pin round one.
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 14, 2022, 01:21:36 AM
When you turn the 'ON' switch to run wait for the CEL and SEL lights to go out on their own. About 15 seconds then start engine. This is the DDEC computer self diagnosis.
Will do. I just turned on the main switch and waited a few seconds and those lights went out like you all said.
Now I willoficy my start procedure to include this step.
Thanks
Seb
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 14, 2022, 08:51:35 AM
You will have to find the momentary switch on the dash or side dash. It will be marked diagnostic request or overrule. You have to know where it is to flash codes and also if the computer shuts the engine down in the middle of an RR crossing you have the ability to overrule the computer to move the bus off the road. It will give you a few seconds to get to safety.
Ok, I will start investigating this.
Thanks
Seb
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 15, 2022, 06:33:11 PM
You will need to locate the DDL connection to see if it is a 12 rectangle type or a 6 pin round one.
Oh brother, there is so much to digest in this thread
Where would a guy look for the DDL connection?
Thanks
Seb
Quote from: Sebulba on September 19, 2022, 07:38:57 PM
Oh brother, there is so much to digest in this thread
Where would a guy look for the DDL connection?
Thanks
Seb
HOW DO YOU EAT AN ELEPHANT?
ONE BITE AT A TIME! :^
Generally the DDL connector will be under the dash or in the electrical panel at the side.
Quote from: dtcerrato on September 19, 2022, 08:06:25 PM
HOW DO YOU EAT AN ELEPHANT?
ONE BITE AT A TIME! :^
You got it!
Seb
Once you get the hang of how the DDEC system works it is a nice feature to have. I know a lot of guys on here don't like an electronic engine but it is the fear of the unknown. I carry one of each sensor and a spare computer so I could fix almost any electronic issue at the side of the road. Very seldom does anything go wrong.
I was introduced to them in 1980 when GM went to Computer Command control. Mileage on all models picked up 3 mpg right off the batt. Some teething issues early on but by 83 they were reliable.
Lucky they went with them on the Detroits. Better fuel economy and less annoying smoke, unless jacked up a lot. You definitely need the scan tool and good manuals. A better one that describes how each sensor works, normal running and stopped voltages, whet episodes can trigger a fault.
GM manuals were great back then in all the help to understand them and properly diagnose problems. Biggest problem was that many mechanics refuse or can't or can't comprehend it. Seems little has changed.
GM needs proprietary scan tool to work on them, or an really expensive aftermarket one now.
DDEC are simple it is best to have a scanner owning one they pay for self,-one trip to a DD dealer to scan and replace a 50 buck sensor will cost you from $1200.00 up scanners have their limit they are not a cure all though
yes, you still need to measure voltages and resistances with a good vom, wire tracer, test light. most sensors vary voltages by engine temp, rpm, throttle angle, neutral- drive position, engine on stopped or running.
Agree witth you both but just having tools and a diagnostic manual does not make an experienced bus electrical diagnostic tech. I read these posts and shutter at the thought of having to do much in depth diagnosis on this stuff. Particularly, since you clear one fault and another or several new ones pops up. And given the mass of the bus, wires go a long way and there are so much to deal with. Hats off and good luck. I got my popcorn and easy chair all set. lol
I do agree that spending the money on the DDEC diag tools are a cost but essential. Seems like there should be if not already some tool sharing group going on amongst the busnuts. Must have come up in past times.
Tool sharing?
Does that not fly in the face of 'merican individualism and independance?
Survival of the fittest, pay to play, dare we even suggest socialism?
This Board and the internet already sails mighty close to those winds...
If John Wayne was still alive...
Comedy in truth?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Don
Very rare to have multiple codes that are not indicated by the sel and cel lights
They read out any codes active or stored. It is almost a necessity to have a tool like a Prolink.
like GM products, many times a fault will trigger multible codes because the ground or voltage feed is interconnected. wires going from front to back can be checked by disconnecting plugs or connectors at both ends and using a wire tracer to verify correct wire. then wire checked for resistance. Most computer circuits are fed 5 volts and the return wire voltage or resistance is read by computer to be in a specified range. Each component in a Computer system is expected to be in a certain range when engine is operating. Find a GM computer command control diagnostic manual from Oldsmobile, for example. It explains how computer command control (ccc) works for each component. Basically what they used in DDA engines till they started using frequencies on the same wire in the latest computer systems. This is a manual everyone should obtain to make your life easier if your coach has a computer.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403802509970?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=4TOpVwFhTEa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=QbPh_E0WTG6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=MORE
People need the scanner for the World Transmissions to like the B500 the Allison World can trigger a engine code to.the World Transmission are a electronic marvel their self ,the newer generation of the World controls the engine it tells the engine what it wants and needs.With a 500 page trouble shooting manual for the DDEC life is not all that easy sometimes
So, it seems something like a Prolink or other expensive, low use tool could be shared amongst those needing one from time to time. Pool some funds, buy one, pass around as needed (yes, shipping costs). It's just that I have no recollection of recent times where that practice is done here.
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 20, 2022, 05:27:47 AM
Once you get the hang of how the DDEC system works it is a nice feature to have. I know a lot of guys on here don't like an electronic engine but it is the fear of the unknown. I carry one of each sensor and a spare computer so I could fix almost any electronic issue at the side of the road. Very seldom does anything go wrong.
That sounds like a good plan. How much $$ do you think would cost to have those sensors and a spare computer?
Seb
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 20, 2022, 08:07:02 AM
I was introduced to them in 1980 when GM went to Computer Command control. Mileage on all models picked up 3 mpg right off the batt. Some teething issues early on but by 83 they were reliable.
Lucky they went with them on the Detroits. Better fuel economy and less annoying smoke, unless jacked up a lot. You definitely need the scan tool and good manuals. A better one that describes how each sensor works, normal running and stopped voltages, whet episodes can trigger a fault.
GM manuals were great back then in all the help to understand them and properly diagnose problems. Biggest problem was that many mechanics refuse or can't or can't comprehend it. Seems little has changed.
GM needs proprietary scan tool to work on them, or an really expensive aftermarket one now.
I guess I can see the benefits....until something goes wrong. Then it's nice know that all you need is fuel air and compression to run a diesel engine.
I have a lot to learn.
Seb
Quote from: luvrbus on September 20, 2022, 09:55:26 AM
DDEC are simple it is best to have a scanner owning one they pay for self,-one trip to a DD dealer to scan and replace a 50 buck sensor will cost you from $1200.00 up scanners have their limit they are not a cure all though
That sounds like a plan. Where would you suggest looking for a scanner and which one do you advise looking at?
Thanks
Seb
Quote from: Bill Gerrie on September 20, 2022, 05:49:11 PM
Don
Very rare to have multiple codes that are not indicated by the sel and cel lights
They read out any codes active or stored. It is almost a necessity to have a tool like a Prolink.
Hello,
Here Prolink is mentioned again. I would like to learn more about this tool. Do you have a link?
Thanks
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 20, 2022, 06:09:50 PM
like GM products, many times a fault will trigger multible codes because the ground or voltage feed is interconnected. wires going from front to back can be checked by disconnecting plugs or connectors at both ends and using a wire tracer to verify correct wire. then wire checked for resistance. Most computer circuits are fed 5 volts and the return wire voltage or resistance is read by computer to be in a specified range. Each component in a Computer system is expected to be in a certain range when engine is operating. Find a GM computer command control diagnostic manual from Oldsmobile, for example. It explains how computer command control (ccc) works for each component. Basically what they used in DDA engines till they started using frequencies on the same wire in the latest computer systems. This is a manual everyone should obtain to make your life easier if your coach has a computer.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403802509970?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=4TOpVwFhTEa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=QbPh_E0WTG6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=MORE
OK, so I see that Ebay auction. It is for GM. Is this manual transferable to MCI?
Thanks
Seb
I think I have a Prolink at home but need to check on the DDEC II III card. I am on vacation till Oct 10 in MI. Call me at 416 580 3048 and I will check later.
Quote from: windtrader on September 21, 2022, 12:20:03 PM
So, it seems something like a Prolink or other expensive, low use tool could be shared amongst those needing one from time to time. Pool some funds, buy one, pass around as needed (yes, shipping costs). It's just that I have no recollection of recent times where that practice is done here.
A more serious responce...
Sensitive electronics will not survive in a shared tool environment.
Who is paying to repair it when someone burns its brains out doing something foolish?
Who is being blamed for burning it out?
Way too easy for friendships to be destroyed.
Measure the value a different way, how many tires worth of electronics to prevent being taken to the cleaners when trapped out in the world with a problem?
Scan tool is one of the best value to potential disaster expences one can make.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
that manual on ebay will give you the basics on exactly how these computer systems work. particular engine sensors won't be identical, but their function and testing is still the same to current systems. This will take away the mystery of engine control systems in easily understandable language.
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 21, 2022, 03:53:09 PM
that manual on ebay will give you the basics on exactly how these computer systems work. particular engine sensors won't be identical, but their function and testing is still the same to current systems. This will take away the mystery of engine control systems in easily understandable language.
Thank you
Seb
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 20, 2022, 06:09:50 PM
like GM products, many times a fault will trigger multible codes because the ground or voltage feed is interconnected. wires going from front to back can be checked by disconnecting plugs or connectors at both ends and using a wire tracer to verify correct wire. then wire checked for resistance. Most computer circuits are fed 5 volts and the return wire voltage or resistance is read by computer to be in a specified range. Each component in a Computer system is expected to be in a certain range when engine is operating. Find a GM computer command control diagnostic manual from Oldsmobile, for example. It explains how computer command control (ccc) works for each component. Basically what they used in DDA engines till they started using frequencies on the same wire in the latest computer systems. This is a manual everyone should obtain to make your life easier if your coach has a computer.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403802509970?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=4TOpVwFhTEa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=QbPh_E0WTG6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=MORE
I just bought that book, Thanks for the suggestion.
Seb
The big difference since the early 80's, is how to go about the diagnosis. Started out using a VOM. (volt,amp,ohm multimeter) to do measurements. As years progressed they came up with scan tools that did the diagnostic work, saving a lot of time. For a decent technician, that is. For a clueless inexperienced tech, just swapping parts without sucessful repair is the result. A dealership is only going to pay good income for one, maybe two good techs. They dont want to pay higher salaries for basic repairs and oil change employees.
That manual will help remove the mysteries of these systems.
The student hand book for the DDEC is simple if you can find one,I used to let people use mine too make copies I started with 6 and now I only have 1 left since people would never return the manuals, I have the Allison application manual too I let people make copies of and it has always been returned
https://silverleafelectronics.com//?page_id=2434
Quote from: luvrbus on September 22, 2022, 06:11:42 AM
The student hand book for the DDEC is simple if you can find one,I used to let people use mine too make copies I started with 6 and now I only have 1 left since people would never return the manuals, I have the Allison application manual too I let people make copies of and it has always been returned
Perfect, I'm looking forward to digging into it.
Thanks
Seb
I know this is another person's thread, but without knowing much of what a DDEC is, I believe someone said somewhere that they stopped using them in 2002(?). My bus is a 2002 MCI D4500 12.7 Series 60/B500. How would I know if I have the DDEC or whatever other thing replaced the DDEC?
DDEC was in use in 2002 for sure. It probably DDEC IV. A Prolink will tell you what version you have.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://dieselengineparts.highwayandheavyparts.com/blog/detroit-diesel-ecus-explained%3Fhs_amp%3Dtrue&ved=2ahUKEwjC17mQt6n6AhX7D1kFHbBfC2EQFnoECBwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2AdpjhClBdPwRyIeD_SFi8
The DDEC is alive and well only the 60 series for highway use went away when M/B introduced the DD13 in 2011, the 60 series is still made for marine and industrial use, it owned by BMW now
Nice (sorry for stealing your thread Sulbulba!). I thought the model of Pro-Link a person bought had to be specific to which system you had.
The Prolink is universal. It is the card you put into it that is specific to a certain engine.
Quote from: Glennman on September 23, 2022, 12:27:42 PM
Nice (sorry for stealing your thread Sulbulba!). I thought the model of Pro-Link a person bought had to be specific to which system you had.
You're fine. We're all trying to learn this stuff.
Seb
Hello all,
Short update. Since waiting for the lights to out have had no issues. We went from Yellowstone to Rapid City, SD with one stop in Pierre, SD Walmart for the night. Then on to Minnesota and now in Enid, OK with a few more stops between.
Thanks for the help
Seb