I am trying to figure out what I should wire my bus for. I have a 20kw Powertech that was given to me. I have a Zantrex Freedom SW3012 inverter. I will have two minisplit heat pumps. I have propane Hot Water Heater and 40k LP Furnace. I'm not sure if I should use those or not. I have an induction 120v cook-top.
Here is my questions: Should I ditch the propane and use electric heat 220v or keep the propane and perhaps use the Webasto for heat? I won't use the bus very often as I am still working with kids in the house. Should I spend money on expensive batteries or just use the big generator? I would like to not have to use campgrounds while on the road getting from point A to B. I plan on building a quiet box for the gen, with remote mount radiator and exhaust out the roof. My initial thoughts are: if I have this big generator why spend the money on batteries? Am I wrong?
Redundancy is a wonderful thing.
By "wiring for 220v" you're talking about 50-amp service so that you can run actual 220v appliances, then you are limiting the use of those appliances to either when you can run the generator or when you are plugged into 50-amp shore power.
You say that you don't have intention of using campgrounds along the route, but it is nice to have the option when you need it. Lots of places we've been to, especially in a pinch on short notice, had only 30-amp sites available.
But, if you're talking about wiring for 50-amp vs. 30-amp setup while still using only 120v appliances, then definitely that's the way to go.
Even with that huge generator, you'll want to have a house battery bank. Lots of things in the bus will be 12v operated like the water pump, ceiling vent fans, lighting, etc. and it makes no sense to have to run the generator every time you want to wash your hands.
That inverter also won't do you any good without a battery bank. We really enjoy being able to camp silently, especially during seasons when a/c isn't needed. Having a battery bank will allow you to run the microwave or watch TV without the noise/vibration from the generator.
Propane appliance? If they are running well, they're already bought and paid for. I would keep them if you can, or swap them out for diesel fired alternatives if you want to eliminate the propane tank. Having electric as redundancy or for times you're plugged in is good, but it would really suck if you had to run that generator just to take the chill out of the air when a propane furnace or the Webasto could do it in virtual silence.
Richard. You make great points. I know very little about electrical wiring, so please forgive me. I plan on wring the bus for 50 amp. Is it possible to run a some baseboard heaters that are 220v on a 50 amp campground power post?
In regard to the batteries, I understand that I need some batteries. What I meant to say was with that big of a generator would I need a expensive, large battery bank? I know I wasn't very clear on that point. Anyhow, ultimately I would like to use my baseboard electric heat if possible because I have those heaters and my layout would work with them. Is that possible only when the gen is running or will they work on shore power? I can use the propane when boondocking.
quote author=richard5933 link=topic=35943.msg416233#msg416233 date=1641689325]
By "wiring for 220v" you're talking about 50-amp service so that you can run actual 220v appliances, then you are limiting the use of those appliances to either when you can run the generator or when you are plugged into 50-amp shore power.
You say that you don't have intention of using campgrounds along the route, but it is nice to have the option when you need it. Lots of places we've been to, especially in a pinch on short notice, had only 30-amp sites available.
But, if you're talking about wiring for 50-amp vs. 30-amp setup while still using only 120v appliances, then definitely that's the way to go.
Even with that huge generator, you'll want to have a house battery bank. Lots of things in the bus will be 12v operated like the water pump, ceiling vent fans, lighting, etc. and it makes no sense to have to run the generator every time you want to wash your hands.
That inverter also won't do you any good without a battery bank. We really enjoy being able to camp silently, especially during seasons when a/c isn't needed. Having a battery bank will allow you to run the microwave or watch TV without the noise/vibration from the generator.
Propane appliance? If they are running well, they're already bought and paid for. I would keep them if you can, or swap them out for diesel fired alternatives if you want to eliminate the propane tank. Having electric as redundancy or for times you're plugged in is good, but it would really suck if you had to run that generator just to take the chill out of the air when a propane furnace or the Webasto could do it in virtual silence.
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Theoretically, you should be able to run 220v appliances when plugged into a 50-amp pedestal at a campground. Actually, 240v though - that's been the standard for some time now (120v/240v).
I say theoretically because you will occasionally find an improperly wired campground. Proper 50-amp service will have two hot legs, each with 120v and out of phase with each other. If you put a meter between one hot and the neutral you'll get 120v, and between the two hots you'll get 240v.
If your generator has the ability to output the same - two hot legs of 120v each - you could install those 220v baseboard heaters and run them off the generator or a 50-amp shore power connection. But, then you'll be limited to running the only on those two options. Wind up somewhere with only 30-amp connection (which only has one 120v leg) and you'll either be running your generator or burning diesel/propane to make heat.
What about installing 120v baseboard heaters? Not quite as nice as the 220v units, but then you can run them regardless of where you are plugged in.
On our bus we have the propane furnace which can heat the bus by itself. We also have three 1500w electric toe kick heaters and a 120v baseboard heater in the bathroom. Even if we are plugged into a 30-amp pedestal we can run heat off the shore power. Not all at once, but enough to stay warm and not have to run the propane. If we're paying for a campsite I'd rather burn their electric than my propane (or my diesel to run the generator).
Like someone mentioned, it's all about having redundancies. Especially for things like heat. And options - the more options you leave yourself the better. This applies for things like heat, but also for cooking. That induction cooktop is great (we have one too) but it will require electric to cook a meal or even heat water for coffee. That's why we also have a portable propane hob for times we aren't plugged in. Makes it possible to cook a light meal or make coffee without missing a beat or having to tolerate the generator early in the a.m.
In our 4106 we had a 240v cooktop. It was nice, but it was limiting. Couldn't use it unless the generator was running or we were on a 50-amp shore power connection. When we go to the lake we are usually on a 30-amp site, and that means no cooktop since generators are not allowed there.
My opinion is to limit the 240v appliances to those you can easily do without. Of course, if it's something you can easily do without then maybe it's something you don't need to waste space for anyhow.
heating with electric is not a winter design goal, if that matters for where you are using, or going to get caught using, the bus.
30 amp power pole can only make 12 283 BTU of heat, typically you'll have a pair of 1500 watt heaters running for only 10 236 BTU, anything else and pop goes the breaker...
electric is a part of your heat layering, not all of it.
Typical RV propane furnace makes 40 000 BTU...
If you could turn all of the generator into electric heat, that's only 68 242 BTU.
A US gallon of Diesel is advertised as being 137 000 BTU.
FWIW
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Layered is a good use of word for heat as BW mentioned. Our heat scheme is redundant and layered.
Basically there's the over the road heat from the engine so that shouldn't be a concern. But being parked is different. We have two LP furnaces totaling just short of 50,000 btu. Than there's two diesel air heaters totalling around 50,000 btu. Then there's the electric resistive heat. We'll never have our total btu outputting heat so there is always reserve and multiple fuel source for emergencies if something were to fail..in an extreme condition could mean life or death. Redundancy is your friend in any & all systems.
Very few RV's have actual 220 volt appliances as they would have to fire up the generator when they are in a 30AMP service RV park.
A 50AMP circuit simply means that you don't have to worry about what you switch on.
I recently had my bus on such a circuit when the temperature was down in the low teens and as others mention using layered heat sources it allowed me to do this.
there are alot of times we do not want to start the genny so we use the inverter and batteries for power . like making coffee or warming up a muffin in the microwave or using the toaster .
most times it is the early morning and we want to be quiet
keep the propane and use some 120 v cube heaters for the warm up when its not to cold
dave
We struggled with the same options. Fancy new solar is all the rage, but a belly full of batteries?? We are not ready for that.
What finally calmed us down was thinking HARD about two things.
1. How we will use the bus.
2. Why tear out what is working well.
I don't know how old your kids are but any "heat" thing needs to be safe if they are still capable of doing a "Mommy said NO the touching that space heater!".
We thought hard about what we have now. Big generator runs on diesel, drinks very little, and we have 200 gallons. The big wires from it go into sidewall behind the generator. I too am not an electrician and if I was, I'm not tearing into that. It makes a little noise, but it works every time (so far).
The 35 gallon propane tank would be equally ugly to remove since it is centered in the belly mostly behind walls.
We are 35 feet with no slides and well insulated so the square footage to maintain heat or A/C is small. We don't go to the polar bear plunge in Minnesota every winter. More likely to go to Florida or Colorado in the fall. We use space heaters when plugged in (as suggested above) and have run the furnace I think 4 times. I am old and like to hear that BTU machine kick on in the night. It gets the bus warm right now. And Rita likes the gas cooktop.
If too hot out, we look for 50 amp or run the generator. We just do. There might be a solar charged system that batteries can keep up with 2 A/C units running, but I'm skeptical.
I think some of it it comes down to personal preference, the places you like to go, and how you will use YOUR bus. For us it boiled down to "Why change what works really well?".
Going about 5 or 6 times a year for 5 to 8 days, do I really care what propane costs?
And two or three ways to do things (redundancy) may keep you from having to cut short a trip you/ wife and the kids were looking forward to.
Best of luck with your project.
I look at it this way: What would I do if I got stranded in a blizzard for a week or two? Heat would become not just the main concern but almost the only one. Well, no power pole to hook to so that's out as a primary heat source. Handy for camp sites but still just a convenience. Solar? Not the best if it's overcast but useful nonetheless. I wouldn't want to bet my life on it just yet. Generator? Yeah that's good if noisy but what if I was due for a fuel stop? Batteries, well maybe for a day or so. Main engine, similar to the genny but a slightly deeper reserve. Propane? Yeah that's a good strategy, provided I keep the tank reasonably full and it has sufficient capacity. It won't depend on distance between refueling stops either. And with the gas range I can have two ways to convert propane to heat if I want. Just have to be sure the flames are blue and don't blow out.
Now, how does all that correlate with the bus I have, is the next question. So OK, I have the gas range so propane use is covered, and since ALL of it is converted to heat it is efficient use and a tank will last a long time. Emergency survival mode is good. Have to make sure it can't burn up all the oxygen in the bus but that can be done, and on the fly if needed. A canary might be a plus, I hear there are electronic ones you can buy. The propane furnace just became a convenience rather than a primary emergency need. The bus has an Eiberspacher aux heater. This is easily set up to be primary heat. That leaves convenience heat which can be handled by 2 or 3 low output heat sources such as electric cube heaters or CDH units, dealer's choice, maybe both. This leaves the 240v heaters as a non-entry since having 240v available only means double the number of cube heaters. As far as I am concerned the ONLY use for 240v is AC and I'm working hard to eliminate that requirement as much as possible. I certainly would not bring it back in for heat.
Jim
Quote from: Jcparmley on January 08, 2022, 04:09:21 PM
I am trying to figure out what I should wire my bus for. I have a 20kw Powertech that was given to me. I have a Zantrex Freedom SW3012 inverter. I will have two minisplit heat pumps. I have propane Hot Water Heater and 40k LP Furnace. I'm not sure if I should use those or not. I have an induction 120v cook-top.
Here is my questions: Should I ditch the propane and use electric heat 220v or keep the propane and perhaps use the Webasto for heat? I won't use the bus very often as I am still working with kids in the house. Should I spend money on expensive batteries or just use the big generator? I would like to not have to use campgrounds while on the road getting from point A to B. I plan on building a quiet box for the gen, with remote mount radiator and exhaust out the roof. My initial thoughts are: if I have this big generator why spend the money on batteries? Am I wrong?
Fewer systems are better. don't bother with 220/240, not worth any advantage and from practical POV, it is far less useful. Big batteries are always super when off the pole. More energy allows you to run 120v stuff via inverter for much longer and zero noise.
I think I have my answer. Thank you all for your input. I won't use the 220v heaters. My kids are older so no problem with using cube heaters if necessary. I also should have mentioned that I live in Wisconsin so heat is something I think about alot. Although I don't plan to use the bus to much in the winter but you never know. I also should have mentioned that I plan to have a small mini wood stove in the front of the bus. I like the idea of having a wood stove to take the chill off and in an emergency situation it can't be beat. So the layered approach for my bus is:
Two Minisplit heat pump
Wood Burning Mini Stove in front
40k LP Furnace For Sleeping area
Diesel Air Heaters?
So what is best practices as to wring the bus in regards to setting up the panels, transfer switch, balancing loads, etc?
You just said "wiring"? I'm out.
I am lucky if I get both batteries pointed the right way in a flashlight, but some of these guys have done it all. They will help you. They talked me through my inverter problem a year ago.
I think the little wood heater is a neat idea but I don't know where I would put one? We lived in Alaska for 15 years, and I hear Wisconsin is colder so I sympathize with your concerns for HEAT. Heat is good and warmer is better.
I bet our School Bus folks will have better ideas and brand names than us over the road bus guys on a wood heat systems. I hope they see your message. Best of luck. Stay warm.
Looks like the start of a plan, but with all that you have listed I'm not sure if you need the diesel heater(s) as well. Especially if you have the 40,000 btu propane and the wood burner.
About getting all the wiring configured...
Might be easier to show you than explain to you. How close are you to me? I'm in Waukesha County, just east of Hwy 83. If we have a day with enough warmth to be outside for a little while and you want to stop by I'll be happy to show you how I've got all the transfer switch, circuit breakers, etc. configured to make all the systems play nice together.
If you're familiar with house wiring the bus won't be a problem. You've essentially got three separate systems: the bus/chassis system, the house 120vac system, and the house 12vdc system. To make it more confusing, the two DC systems can tie into each other, and the 120v system has multiple feeds - the generator, shore power, and the inverter.
I would love to come out and see your bus. I live 20 minutes west of Madison. Perhaps I can meet with you in the spring. It's not a hurry since it's to cold for me to be working in the bus now. This winter I am working in my shop building my gray water tank. Here's a link to the stove I am going to put in.
https://www.tinywoodstove.com/product/small-stove-the-dwarf-5kw/
The wood burning stove will be a big investment because it's very expensive, however I love the heat, smell and sound of a wood burner. Also, if I do need emergency heat nothing beats a wood burner to keep my family warm. So in my opinion is the cost is worth it.
Quote from: richard5933 on January 09, 2022, 05:09:19 PM
Looks like the start of a plan, but with all that you have listed I'm not sure if you need the diesel heater(s) as well. Especially if you have the 40,000 btu propane and the wood burner.
About getting all the wiring configured...
Might be easier to show you than explain to you. How close are you to me? I'm in Waukesha County, just east of Hwy 83. If we have a day with enough warmth to be outside for a little while and you want to stop by I'll be happy to show you how I've got all the transfer switch, circuit breakers, etc. configured to make all the systems play nice together.
If you're familiar with house wiring the bus won't be a problem. You've essentially got three separate systems: the bus/chassis system, the house 120vac system, and the house 12vdc system. To make it more confusing, the two DC systems can tie into each other, and the 120v system has multiple feeds - the generator, shore power, and the inverter.
Where are you in this project? Just starting or already converted? I have a master breaker within 18" of where the power enters the bus. That feeds a 220v breaker box with 220v breakers for my 220v loads, only used on 50 amp pole. It also has a 110v 50 amp breaker that feeds the 4024 Zantrex inverter. This is on the leg that is powered by the 50, 30, and 15 amp side. I have a 110v breaker box upstairs, for all normal household circuits, powered by the inverter. The inverter is powered by pole, battery bank or generator. Because the inverter is power sharing I can run it on 15 amp pole and any shortfall is covered by the battey bank. If it is long term and the battery bank gets low the inverter will start the generator. The battery bank is charged by the inverter on pole power, the engine alternator on the road, solar panels via midnight controller, and lastly the generator.
I finally have the entire bus gutted and am basically ready start figuring out how to begin building. I currently have no windows, floors or skin on the bus. As soon as the snow melts in the spring I am going to work on skinning the bus. I will also need to finish the floor and then get the interior spray foamed.
Quote from: Lee Bradley on January 10, 2022, 10:39:06 AM
Where are you in this project? Just starting or already converted? I have a master breaker within 18" of where the power enters the bus. That feeds a 220v breaker box with 220v breakers for my 220v loads, only used on 50 amp pole. It also has a 110v 50 amp breaker that feeds the 4024 Zantrex inverter. This is on the leg that is powered by the 50, 30, and 15 amp side. I have a 110v breaker box upstairs, for all normal household circuits, powered by the inverter. The inverter is powered by pole, battery bank or generator. Because the inverter is power sharing I can run it on 15 amp pole and any shortfall is covered by the battey bank. If it is long term and the battery bank gets low the inverter will start the generator. The battery bank is charged by the inverter on pole power, the engine alternator on the road, solar panels via midnight controller, and lastly the generator.
At this point, I would think about kind of heat you want. I have hot water system with pipes in the floor and toe kick heaters. Storage tank is a 19 gallon water heater with a 4,000 watt element (one of my 220v loads), diesel boiler, and heat exchanger loop to the engine also looped to a three way potable water heater to use engine heat to warm that water underway. Very comfortable heat.
If you have room for a stove, you might take a look at this one. At about 4:17.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDv4zGlQJjs
I believe I am going to get this stove. It's expensive but I think it will be a nice addition to the bus.
https://www.tinywoodstove.com/product/small-stove-the-dwarf-5kw/
Quote from: Lee Bradley on January 11, 2022, 10:59:08 AM
If you have room for a stove, you might take a look at this one. At about 4:17.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDv4zGlQJjs
Some of those Scandinavian stoves are really nice. Colored porcelin finish and really efficient. Jotul? Probably too big for a coach though.
Found this though. The heavier model can burn hard coal if desired.
https://www.tinywoodstove.com/dwarf-3kw-standard-vs-dwarf-3kw-lite-product-comparison/
Over in the skoolie world the word is that insurers won't cover a solid fuel heating appliance.
Oh, I guess I should look into that. I hadn't thought of that until now.
Quote from: Brassman on January 12, 2022, 05:49:13 PM
Over in the skoolie world the word is that insurers won't cover a solid fuel heating appliance.
Solid fuel? Does that include LP or diesel?
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 13, 2022, 03:45:52 AM
Solid fuel? Does that include LP or diesel?
They're both carried as liquids.
Solid fuel is things that can't be poured or pumped, like wood, coal, pellets, etc.
Won't be a happy life with coal in the bus.
I'm very happy with the little Jotul wood stove that I installed in my off grid mountain cabin (280 sq. ft.). On a 30F day I got it up to 80F inside with no trouble. The salesman said it was the best selling wood stove in the world, but then he's a salesman. That said there is no way I would put one in a mobile vehicle. Can you imagine what would happen if it busted loose in a crash, or what about the fire hazard or hassle getting wood on the road.
You never said you planned on using coal JC, so maybe a moot point, but my neighbor tried coal in his woodstove in his house in Alaska. It set off his CO2 detector a few times and the soot at the end of one season convinced him to give the coal away. We tried to find the leak since there had to be one to set off the CO2 alarm. We couldn't figure it out. When he gave up using coal it never went off again.
I was actually using coal as an example of solid fuel, not suggesting anyone actually burn it in their bus.
But, it can be done. Not sure how this translates to life in a bus, but here's a video of two guys living in a narrowboat and their coal stove. Afterall, a narrowboat is nothing but a bus without wheels floating down a canal.
See 12:20 for the stove
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SNCh-rMiTE&t=759s
And cleaning the chimney/stove at 15:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxI-sbq2K6A
I've installed probably a hundred Jotul wood and gas stoves during my contracting days. They are hands down some of the best stoves on the market. One thing about the cast or heavy steel stoves in this discussion is that they will hold heat for quite a while, opposed to some of the tiny, super thin stainless models I've seen advertised/presented on YouTube. Also, coal should not be burned in any stove that is not designed for such. Coal burns much hotter than wood, and can destroy a stove that isn't built for it in short order.
Good coal stoves are lined with fire brick or the lighter ceramic bricks and different grade of cast iron grates.
We have the small Jotul 602 & a Dovre Heirloom side loader. Both total 100,000 btu. Wood. Ironically the Jotul is in Tok & the larger Dovre is in the FL home. And ironically again AK wood is white spruce and FL is oak. Kind of wish it was reversed but that's how it panned out!
Since we went to wood heat I have ? if you are on the move how would you handle the screwed up law about crossing state line with fire wood from another state.I had a ranger in NV that took my wood for camp fires and made me a small bundle from a camp host for 7 bucks.Some laws are stupid you know he burn the wood or tossed it in a dumpster.LOL California friut fly inspection stations even ask now do you have fire wood
Quote from: luvrbus on January 13, 2022, 06:57:12 PM
Since we went to wood heat I have ? if you are on the move how would you handle the screwed up law about crossing state line with fire wood from another state.I had a ranger in NV that took my wood for camp fires and made me a small bundle from a camp host for 7 bucks.Some laws are stupid you know he burn the wood or tossed it in a dumpster.LOL California friut fly inspection stations even ask now do you have fire wood
Pellet stove? No restrictions on moving pellets that I'm aware of. Or, cut up some old pallets - no restrictions on transporting kiln dried lumber.
On the USA Canadian border stations we've see piles of wood furniture alongside the road. Wood is harder getting across international border than the states. And heaven forbid you gather local wood in Most national & provincial parks. When traveling it's diesel, LP. Or electric heat for us but we campfire on both ends - AK FL
Coal is rather nasty stuff to heat with. It stinks and it's hard to keep that smell out of the house.
Jim
Quite a bit of AK residents we met store coal only as a backup fuel as it is readily available with little excavation.
I wasn't planing on burning coal, but I understand the example. Lot's of Skoolie's have wood stoves in them. I would burn only kiln dried hard wood unless I ran out, then I would burn only hardwood to keep the creosote down. I like the idea of having a source that is cheap and available such as wood. I also like the dry heat. You can find wood anywhere you go and if I can't I can always carry those fire bricks made out of sawdust. Easy peasy.
Quote from: richard5933 on January 13, 2022, 07:22:37 PM
Pellet stove? No restrictions on moving pellets that I'm aware of. Or, cut up some old pallets - no restrictions on transporting kiln dried lumber.
Pellet stoves are a nice alternative to woodstoves in some cases. The problem is that they have too many moving parts such as a fan for heat, a fan to expel products of combustion, an auger motor and a computer board. They can be vented out the wall or through the ceiling. I don't know if a bus moving down the road would affect the power venting system (they seem to work fine in areas with high winds). Either way a vertical vent is best. We had customers that soon discovered that even though the vent had a fan in it, the little bit of natural draft from a vertical vent would be enough to keep the room from getting smoked up until the fire finally went out. If I recall, there were models out there that had battery back up, and there may be some that don't have as many moving parts.
I just found a Dovre Heirloom for sale not far from my house. $200 and still working. What a deal. The side loader will be perfect and it's UL listed and has both the side and rear shields and catalytic converter so it's insurable. Thanks for putting me on to this stove. I wouldn't have looked it up without your suggestion.
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 13, 2022, 05:24:30 PM
We have the small Jotul 602 & a Dovre Heirloom side loader. Both total 100,000 btu. Wood. Ironically the Jotul is in Tok & the larger Dovre is in the FL home. And ironically again AK wood is white spruce and FL is oak. Kind of wish it was reversed but that's how it panned out!
fine for a house. Would roast you out in a coach.
Quote from: Jcparmley on January 14, 2022, 01:56:42 PM
I just found a Dovre Heirloom for sale not far from my house. $200 and still working. What a deal. The side loader will be perfect and it's UL listed and has both the side and rear shields and catalytic converter so it's insurable. Thanks for putting me on to this stove. I wouldn't have looked it up without your suggestion.
Great buy on a great stove! Heck new in 1990 we paid $525 for the Heirloom! The 6" catalytic is $100 these days. We burn oak from our woods - great stuff. With the stove loaded and catalytic engaged it'll do an 8 hour burn with coals enough to start another round. Love the ash tray for easy dump. It's a 60,000 btu stove @ 23" log. We have a screen for open burning like a fireplace for social aesthetics but it eats wood in that mode. In the photo we've been using a 1500W heating element in the stove - it maintains 400F & warms the living room & loft above so far this winter. Tomorrow the chimney cap comes off for all out wood burning as our winter finally is arriving (low 30s) We bump it's max temp on catalytic @ 1800F.
The 2nd photo is our smaller Jotul 602 @ 16" log- It's in a small shelter in Tok AK side by side with a vintage Sears & Roebuck oil burner at 60,000btu total.
Nice find!...
You don'tneed to run it full bore.
Probably won't need to run another heat source. It's 29 inch wide by 16 inch deep, so it's not as big as it looks. Only 60k btu full bore.
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 14, 2022, 03:32:11 PM
fine for a house. Would roast you out in a coach.
Where would I get a screen for the stove? Do you remember where you got yours?
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 14, 2022, 04:36:25 PM
Great buy on a great stove! Heck new in 1990 we paid $525 for the Heirloom! The 6" catalytic is $100 these days. We burn oak from our woods - great stuff. With the stove loaded and catalytic engaged it'll do an 8 hour burn with coals enough to start another round. Love the ash tray for easy dump. It's a 60,000 btu stove @ 23" log. We have a screen for open burning like a fireplace for social aesthetics but it eats wood in that mode. In the photo we've been using a 1500W heating element in the stove - it maintains 400F & warms the living room & loft above so far this winter. Tomorrow the chimney cap comes off for all out wood burning as our winter finally is arriving (low 30s) We bump it's max temp on catalytic @ 1800F.
The 2nd photo is our smaller Jotul 602 @ 16" log- It's in a small shelter in Tok AK side by side with a vintage Sears & Roebuck oil burner at 60,000btu total.
Nice find!...
Quote from: Jcparmley on January 14, 2022, 08:28:30 PM
Where would I get a screen for the stove? Do you remember where you got yours?
The screen came with the stove but it's not shown anywhere in the instructions nor parts list. It would be easy to fabricate one.
Speaking of creosote buildup, I have a friend who used to intentionally create a chimney fire at least once a year just so he wouldn't have to hire a chimney sweep. He had little concern for what wood he was burning since as he said it, he was going to burn it all out anyway and afterwards the chimney was cleaner than any sweep could get it. Sounds risky doesn't it? But I guess he figured as long as it was a controlled burn (using the damper so that flames didn't shoot too far out of the top) it wouldn't get hot enough to crack the fire tiles or burn out the mortar. He got by with it but every year his neighbors would call the fire department on him. So he got in the habit of giving them advance notice and they got in the habit of calling before rolling trucks. Be a bit more challenging to do that in a bus but they do have some very nice triple wall stainless flue pipes now.
Jim
That sounds risky :o :o
I would use at least double wall but triple wall would be even better. I read a skoolie blog where the guy goes up every few months and runs a brush that attaches to his drill down the chimney. Seems like a good plan. Burning hard wood is the key. I can get tons of free pallets as well. Most of them are hard wood. If this stove is to big I will just refinish it and sell it. I am only going to pay 200 for it. We'll see how it goes.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on January 15, 2022, 05:20:18 AM
Speaking of creosote buildup, I have a friend who used to intentionally create a chimney fire at least once a year just so he wouldn't have to hire a chimney sweep. He had little concern for what wood he was burning since as he said it, he was going to burn it all out anyway and afterwards the chimney was cleaner than any sweep could get it. Sounds risky doesn't it? But I guess he figured as long as it was a controlled burn (using the damper so that flames didn't shoot too far out of the top) it wouldn't get hot enough to crack the fire tiles or burn out the mortar. He got by with it but every year his neighbors would call the fire department on him. So he got in the habit of giving them advance notice and they got in the habit of calling before rolling trucks. Be a bit more challenging to do that in a bus but they do have some very nice triple wall stainless flue pipes now.
Jim
Man, I would love it if our winters were in the low 30's :^ Our winters in Wisconsin are brutal with negative digits and lots of wind. Sometimes the windchill is down to -30. Our kids school won't close unless it's below zero. It's just crazy what you can get used to. The other day it was 35 and it felt like a heat wave. I drive school bus in the mornings and it takes those Cummins a while to warm up!
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 14, 2022, 04:36:25 PM
Great buy on a great stove! Heck new in 1990 we paid $525 for the Heirloom! The 6" catalytic is $100 these days. We burn oak from our woods - great stuff. With the stove loaded and catalytic engaged it'll do an 8 hour burn with coals enough to start another round. Love the ash tray for easy dump. It's a 60,000 btu stove @ 23" log. We have a screen for open burning like a fireplace for social aesthetics but it eats wood in that mode. In the photo we've been using a 1500W heating element in the stove - it maintains 400F & warms the living room & loft above so far this winter. Tomorrow the chimney cap comes off for all out wood burning as our winter finally is arriving (low 30s) We bump it's max temp on catalytic @ 1800F.
The 2nd photo is our smaller Jotul 602 @ 16" log- It's in a small shelter in Tok AK side by side with a vintage Sears & Roebuck oil burner at 60,000btu total.
Nice find!...
Hard coal doesn't create creosote. Can be left out in rain. Doesn't soak moisture. Does require enough draft to burn. Probably with your short chimney, would require draft blower with thermostatic control.
Some pellets can be less than up to spec. Have a neighbor that uses a pellet stove to heat his house. Of course, it has the round plate that air blows up through and pulleys gravity fed. He's had to deal with sub quality pellets year to year. Sometimes good brand quality changes one year to another. And the burner head needs cleaned regularly from a creasote like build up.
Has anyone used those pressed mini logs that TSC sells? Might be pricey, never checked. I burn soft coal 8 to 11 tons a year since 1979.
We have our own chimney sweep & do it once a year- never a problem. Yes FL's winters are a lot like our place in AK's summers - really. Have to run the heat most nights in AK summer. Schools close when temps F go below -30 so it is all relative by geographical area. Of coarse Tok AK being interior can plunge to -70F in winter. Full time residence say the only thing worse than those deep cold temps is the constant darkness of winter. At any rate you got a great buy on a great stove. If it were convenient - I'd trade you for the smaller Jotul you need for your bus. Wish we had our Heirloom in AK but also love it in our FL home!
Oh, I thought you meant Arkansas not Alaska. That make a big difference. ;D Anyhow, I will probably refinish the larger stove and if it's to big for the bus I would sell it to purchase a smaller unit.
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 15, 2022, 06:45:25 AM
We have our own chimney sweep & do it once a year- never a problem. Yes FL's winters are a lot like our place in AK's summers - really. Have to run the heat most nights in AK summer. Schools close when temps F go below -30 so it is all relative by geographical area. Of coarse Tok AK being interior can plunge to -70F in winter. Full time residence say the only thing worse than those deep cold temps is the constant darkness of winter. At any rate you got a great buy on a great stove. If it were convenient - I'd trade you for the smaller Jotul you need for your bus. Wish we had our Heirloom in AK but also love it in our FL home!
When you find out it is way too large, you can just leave the windows open. Lol
Two propane furnaces rated at 40k each, would just run a couple times per hour. That stove is going to be pumping out a lot of heat constantly, even on slow burn and all that metal will cool down slowly. And slow burn, the smoke will find all the cracks in your coach to creep in. Especially on heavy damp days with no air.
Your probably right. But at that price and a couple hours work I can easily resell it for double and have a good start to saving for a small unit. On a small budget I need to think outside the box to finance this build.
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 15, 2022, 10:20:45 AM
When you find out it is way too large, you can just leave the windows open. Lol
Two propane furnaces rated at 40k each, would just run a couple times per hour. That stove is going to be pumping out a lot of heat constantly, even on slow burn and all that metal will cool down slowly. And slow burn, the smoke will find all the cracks in your coach to creep in. Especially on heavy damp days with no air.
try this site for ideas as a small wood stove will heat any coach unless there is zero insulation and all windows
if you had to you could burn 2x4 s cut inb to small 8-10 " pieces and that would throw a lot of heat , but hard wood skids would be the best if cut up small . in a small stove there should not be a problem with any chimney cleaning as it would burn the wood fast enough .
I have heated with wood all my life and it is the best warmth you can get . but it's a lot of work
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1105670137/small-wood-stove-mini-for-tent-van-rv?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_a-toys_and_games-sports_and_outdoor_games-camping&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAiA_omPBhBBEiwAcg7smQ2z0-yZpcB8kPqorD6ULXRQhqUZjY4q7ltQYVJ6vroTYdNPYnYObBoCpj0QAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12569403118_122509909907_507439671839_aud-301856855998:pla-353721143480_c__1105670137_511959531&utm_custom2=12569403118&gclid=CjwKCAiA_omPBhBBEiwAcg7smQ2z0-yZpcB8kPqorD6ULXRQhqUZjY4q7ltQYVJ6vroTYdNPYnYObBoCpj0QAvD_BwE
dave
Oh yeah, everyone says hardwood skids...
Are you handy with the chainsaw file?
Burns great, but there's a cost...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
The Heirloom stove is a tight unit and when closed down produces less than 12,000 btu. If I were heating with wood in a bus to help the furnaces or diesel air heaters it wouldn't be fired up unless it was deep cold and at that point wouldn't be too hot. I agree - nothing feels as good on the bones as wood heat does. IMO
The smaller Jotul 602 retails for over $1,500 - yikes! Inflation floats woodstoves too!
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 15, 2022, 06:01:02 PM
The smaller Jotul 602 retails for over $1,500 - yikes! Inflation floats woodstoves too!
Adjusted for inflation, that stove you bought in 1990 would cost over $1200 in 2021 dollars. So yes, that little stove is an increase but not as serious as it initially looks.
So you think that stove could be used in a bus? Or is it too big?
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 15, 2022, 04:09:25 PM
The Heirloom stove is a tight unit and when closed down produces less than 12,000 btu. If I were heating with wood in a bus to help the furnaces or diesel air heaters it wouldn't be fired up unless it was deep cold and at that point wouldn't be too hot. I agree - nothing feels as good on the bones as wood heat does. IMO
Quote from: Jcparmley on January 16, 2022, 01:28:54 PM
So you think that stove could be used in a bus? Or is it too big?
Depends on your point of reference. If wintering in the bus in the great white north - no way is that stove too big but if galavanting in the 48 states - it would be an overkill. IMO
It's side loading feature is tempting though...
Well I just picked it up for 200 bucks. It's in great shape. The catalytic converter is in good shape. I will have to decide at some point if it will go in the bus. If not I will clean it and sell it and use the funds for something smaller.
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 16, 2022, 03:53:39 PM
Depends on your point of reference. If wintering in the bus in the great white north - no way is that stove too big but if galavanting in the 48 states - it would be an overkill. IMO
It's side loading feature is tempting though...
You got an excellent deal on your Dover Heirloom stove! I just uncovered a 2009 receipt for a replacement catalytic @ $127 for it as we've been using the stove since the early 90s. It's almost unbelievable what the word inflation has done to our economy. Heck I remember when inflation only pertained to tires and beach rafts!
Geeze!
There is also a space issue with the wood stove. You pretty much need enough room to be able to get around it to the sides and back for cleaning and maintenance. No practical way to put it in the basement, so it takes up living space that you could otherwise use. And then there's the fuel supply. While it's true you can get wood almost anywhere, campground bundles aren't gonna cut it. So you have to carry your wood and it isn't exactly a dense power source. And then there's the daily ash clean out to deal with. So over all, lots of work and inconvenience that would be perfectly acceptable for a workshop but maybe isn't the ideal solution for a bus.
Jim
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on January 17, 2022, 09:43:12 AM
There is also a space issue with the wood stove. You pretty much need enough room to be able to get around it to the sides and back for cleaning and maintenance. No practical way to put it in the basement, so it takes up living space that you could otherwise use. And then there's the fuel supply. While it's true you can get wood almost anywhere, campground bundles aren't gonna cut it. So you have to carry your wood and it isn't exactly a dense power source. And then there's the daily ash clean out to deal with. So over all, lots of work and inconvenience that would be perfectly acceptable for a workshop but maybe isn't the ideal solution for a bus.
Jim
Jim
You forgot to mention IMO one of the most important things...
Most of the fuel for it you can get for FREE! Just imagine running a bus with a steam engine and free fuel!
Now that's a thought...
Space is an issue in a bus, however I have a space planned out in my floor plan. Yes, a wood stove is more work but since I am not going to be full timing and only using the bus on short trips I think I can deal with the extra work involved. It would be nice to be able have a nice warm wood fire in the Wisconsin winters, which do get down to - digits. This stove might be over kill but I can always test it and move to a smaller unit if I need to.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on January 17, 2022, 09:43:12 AM
There is also a space issue with the wood stove. You pretty much need enough room to be able to get around it to the sides and back for cleaning and maintenance. No practical way to put it in the basement, so it takes up living space that you could otherwise use. And then there's the fuel supply. While it's true you can get wood almost anywhere, campground bundles aren't gonna cut it. So you have to carry your wood and it isn't exactly a dense power source. And then there's the daily ash clean out to deal with. So over all, lots of work and inconvenience that would be perfectly acceptable for a workshop but maybe isn't the ideal solution for a bus.
Jim
Jim
Quote from: Jcparmley on January 17, 2022, 04:13:45 PM
Space is an issue in a bus, however I have a space planned out in my floor plan. Yes, a wood stove is more work but since I am not going to be full timing and only using the bus on short trips I think I can deal with the extra work involved. It would be nice to be able have a nice warm wood fire in the Wisconsin winters, which do get down to - digits. This stove might be over kill but I can always test it and move to a smaller unit if I need to.
If you are not full timing are you really planning this bus to accommodate Wisconsin winters?
If so, I'm really interested in hearing your plans to keep the plumbing from freezing. That's a big step - making a bus suitable for sub-zero weather.
The gray tank/water bay will be heated. The fresh water tanks will be in the cab under the master bed. All the plumbing will go through the ceiling of the water bay into the cab and be run throughout the cab. So as long as the cab is heated and the bay is heated the plumbing shouldn't freeze. This is my hope anyhow. There are a few places in the north that I would like to see in the winter, so I need to have good heat. Plus, if I ever want to go way north to Alaska (Bucket List Item) I will need to have all the plumbing protected. Any other advice from you all who use your bus in winter please send me. I don't want to make a mistake and forget something.
Quote from: richard5933 on January 18, 2022, 03:08:03 AM
If you are not full timing are you really planning this bus to accommodate Wisconsin winters?
If so, I'm really interested in hearing your plans to keep the plumbing from freezing. That's a big step - making a bus suitable for sub-zero weather.
Haven't read (or don't remember reading) about your batteries, but if you are using lithium then obviously you'll need to keep them warm enough to charge.
Also, if you're relying on solar for any power needs be sure to use the winter sun angles when calculating their usefulness.
If use in sub-zero weather is planned I'd strongly suggest researching dual pane windows and some type of insulated curtain to hang between the cab up front and the rest of the bus. Really hard to keep that area warm with all the glass.
Good idea to run all the plumbing downhill to a single drain if you can. (Obviously separate drains for hot/cold/etc)
Jim
Might also be a good idea to build the freshwater system with extra low-point drains with easy access. Same for building in a way to blow the lines with water while on the road.
I can see lots of reasons why you might need to leave the vehicle unheated for a length of time and being able to reduce the chances of burst plumbing would be nice. A simple breakdown that requires the bus to spend a few days at a shop might turn into a minor catastrophe if pipes freeze.
Filtered compressed air can also be used to blow water pipes dry. 10-4 on Alaska being on your bucket list. It was on ours and finally after 38 years we made it! Twice now. As you progress with your build out having that item (AK) in your bucket is good plus the knowledge & suggestions on this board. Having completed our in service bus conversion build out over 42 years ago prior to internet and forums - our conversion is dated to say the least but self contained by every measure of the words including the -67F antifreeze mix. :^
Good point on the batteries. I assumed I would have lithium but haven't purchased any yet. My windows for now are stock MCI, however they are dual pane. Eventually I will like to get new peninsula windows, but not quite yet. No solar yet. Just can't fit that in the budget, but perhaps in the future. Blowing compressed air through the system is a great idea. I was planing on making it possible to fill the fresh water system with antifreeze when necessary. Also, i was planing on having LP instant hot water that can be removed from the bus when not in use. Am I missing anything else?
Quote from: richard5933 on January 18, 2022, 12:02:03 PM
Haven't read (or don't remember reading) about your batteries, but if you are using lithium then obviously you'll need to keep them warm enough to charge.
Also, if you're relying on solar for any power needs be sure to use the winter sun angles when calculating their usefulness.
If use in sub-zero weather is planned I'd strongly suggest researching dual pane windows and some type of insulated curtain to hang between the cab up front and the rest of the bus. Really hard to keep that area warm with all the glass.
Quote from: Jcparmley on January 18, 2022, 06:46:01 PM
Good point on the batteries. I assumed I would have lithium but haven't purchased any yet. My windows for now are stock MCI, however they are dual pane. Eventually I will like to get new peninsula windows, but not quite yet. No solar yet. Just can't fit that in the budget, but perhaps in the future. Blowing compressed air through the system is a great idea. I was planing on making it possible to fill the fresh water system with antifreeze when necessary. Also, i was planing on having LP instant hot water that can be removed from the bus when not in use. Am I missing anything else?
NEVER put antifreeze in the freshwater tank itself. You'll spend the entire season trying to get the taste and foaming out of the water. Instead make sure that the tank has a well-placed low-point drain with the valve in a heated area.
To run the antifreeze through the rest of the system (where it is relatively easy to flush back out) all you have to do is incorporate a T fitting and a valve just before the water pump. When it's time to pump antifreeze through the system you switch the valve so it pulls from a jug of antifreeze rather than the freshwater tank.
Make sure that your water filter can be removed easily so you can take it out before winterizing the system.
If you're not going to install solar right away it would be a great idea to do some calculations to determine the wire size you think you'll need and install that now. Go up a size or two in case your plans change, and then run the wires from the electric bay where you plan to put the solar charge controller all the way to the junction box just below the roof. Install a waterproof connection point on the roof and just cap it off for now. This way you won't have to snake those wires through a competed conversion later on.
While you're running wiring, you should also plan to run at least a few extra pairs of wires from the nose of the bus to the engine bay, and possibly a few others to key points such as from your interior house system control panel to the electrical bay. You'll make changes later on, so you might as well have the wiring in place.
You do know I hope if the wood stove causes a fire in a rv the claim from the insurance carrier will be denied most carriers have that clause hidden in the fine print.I have a friend that has been in a battle for 4 years over his bus fire because of a wood stove ,do your home work
That's a good point. I will need to talk to my insurance company. That may be a deal breaker.
Quote from: luvrbus on January 19, 2022, 08:15:11 AM
You do know I hope if the wood stove causes a fire in a rv the claim from the insurance carrier will be denied most carriers have that clause hidden in the fine print.I have a friend that has been in a battle for 4 years over his bus fire because of a wood stove ,do your home work
Richard, that's a great idea to install wiring for future solar. I hadn't even given it a thought but it makes a lot of sense. I'm so glad we have this forum. The advice I get from here is priceless.
Quote from: richard5933 on January 19, 2022, 04:25:44 AM
NEVER put antifreeze in the freshwater tank itself. You'll spend the entire season trying to get the taste and foaming out of the water. Instead make sure that the tank has a well-placed low-point drain with the valve in a heated area.
To run the antifreeze through the rest of the system (where it is relatively easy to flush back out) all you have to do is incorporate a T fitting and a valve just before the water pump. When it's time to pump antifreeze through the system you switch the valve so it pulls from a jug of antifreeze rather than the freshwater tank.
Make sure that your water filter can be removed easily so you can take it out before winterizing the system.
If you're not going to install solar right away it would be a great idea to do some calculations to determine the wire size you think you'll need and install that now. Go up a size or two in case your plans change, and then run the wires from the electric bay where you plan to put the solar charge controller all the way to the junction box just below the roof. Install a waterproof connection point on the roof and just cap it off for now. This way you won't have to snake those wires through a competed conversion later on.
While you're running wiring, you should also plan to run at least a few extra pairs of wires from the nose of the bus to the engine bay, and possibly a few others to key points such as from your interior house system control panel to the electrical bay. You'll make changes later on, so you might as well have the wiring in place.
Quote from: richard5933 on January 19, 2022, 04:25:44 AM
NEVER put antifreeze in the freshwater tank itself. You'll spend the entire season trying to get the taste and foaming out of the water. Instead make sure that the tank has a well-placed low-point drain with the valve in a heated area.
Excellent advice - you only need to put AF in your drinking water once to never forget the taste.
QuoteTo run the antifreeze through the rest of the system (where it is relatively easy to flush back out) all you have to do is incorporate a T fitting and a valve just before the water pump. When it's time to pump antifreeze through the system you switch the valve so it pulls from a jug of antifreeze rather than the freshwater tank.
Make sure that your water filter can be removed easily so you can take it out before winterizing the system.
There's no harm in a low point drain on the tank(s) but its overkill. A large flat surface with a relatively shallow amount of ice will do no damage. The pump is what you need to worry about. A 3-way ball valve between the tank and pump will allow you to easily switch between tank and AF jug as needed. You don't want AF in the filter for the same reason you don't want it in the main tank - don't ask how I know.
Yes, I remember the taste of AF. I once had to start a siphon with AF and it does taste awful.
Quote from: bobofthenorth on January 19, 2022, 09:07:20 AM
Excellent advice - you only need to put AF in your drinking water once to never forget the taste.
There's no harm in a low point drain on the tank(s) but its overkill. A large flat surface with a relatively shallow amount of ice will do no damage. The pump is what you need to worry about. A 3-way ball valve between the tank and pump will allow you to easily switch between tank and AF jug as needed. You don't want AF in the filter for the same reason you don't want it in the main tank - don't ask how I know.