We all know the post's title subject matter but wanted to point out a product that has been a hot number on this and other bus forums. The two files attached are very similar items - if not similar than they may be exact. I say this because in an earlier day we spoiled western consumers would almost pay a little more for a better quality product - but unfortunately as time passed even the better quality name brand stuff has been swapped for cheaper generic (bootleg knockoff) stuff with prices increasing from there! I personally would pay more for better quality but not at a 10+ fold rate! We are our worst enema is the way I like to put it - ya know like XXXXing one's self. Geeze.
can be expected when Webastos are,crazy priced just because of German prices. If everyone went for best, everyone would be buying Mercedes, Prevost, Snap on, instead of Fords, Schooling, Craftsman. There will be always be someone that will try to make a cheaper buggy whip. Remember when BIC brought out cheap ball point pens?
And the casting looks better on the cheaper one, funny. :^
I am always torn by the dislike of buying Chinese and wanting to support the company that developed the original product. Webasto had to develop something that worked through years of research and trial and error, they had to build the market, secure safety certifications and spend millions on advertising and marketing. It takes a certain price point to pay for all that and make a profit. All China did was take a popular, well engineered product and copy it. Wendy's used to watch McDonalds do market research to decide on a location for a new restaurant, and then put their own on the opposite corner. Sneaky, smart and legal. Having said that I sell a Japanese made pump. I compete very well price wise against all the cheap Chinese knock offs. My pump is a bit more expensive but not by much, and it is so much better that I get most of the business. I wish Webasto was close enough on price to make the decision easier.
We are faced with these types of choices all the time. Often when buying something I look to find someone other than Amazon. Sometimes is works but many times the alternatives are just more expensive and offer less service. In one instance it ended up taking almost a month to get something that would have come in 2 days from Amazon.
If the brand part was at least reasonably priced, I would go with it. Ten times the price is not acceptable though.
I look at it this way...
There is simply no way that cheaper knock-off was produced using the same quality, same production methods, and in a way that fairly compensated their employees. At least not without their government subsidizing the operation. That component is not just a simple widget stamped out on a single assembly line - it's a complex piece of equipment requiring multiple parts, accurate fitment, and skilled assembly.
Either shortcuts were taken, workers were shafted, the government subsidized, or a little of each were done to get the price down this low.
I've seen lots of knock off products that looked exactly the same on initial look, but when examined more closely were vastly different. Pressed-on components instead of screw on, disposable parts instead of serviceable, etc.
Does Webasto greatly overcharge? Don't know. I suspect that the OEM part will last ten times as long as the replacement though. At least if my experience with other knockoff parts is any clue.
If the Chinese used something besides a yard stick to measure tolerances with some things would be ok
counterfeit air valves were a very dangerous situation, not so long ago.
Outer view was fine, looked just like a Bendix part,
however, castings were found to be perilously thin, materials used wouldn't hold up.
Sure, there's profit taking, established less than efficient business practices, research and development to recover, reward for those who risked their capital, all good stuff.
But at some point, you end up struggling with whether there's a reason, or are we being gouged?
pays yer money, takes yer chances?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
There is a curve. New products are typically aimed at the well heeled buyer in order to recover costs quickly while also turning a profit. Then depending on the product and the market, versions are made for the mass market at a lower price point with some or occasionally no cost cutting methods applied, then another stage providing an economy product, and again depending, there may be more or less steps in this curve, and all versions may be offered at the same time as well as those from competitors. Patents are intended to guarantee an extension to the natural process so that the originator may profit and bring additional items to market, but it is limited to allow the natural process to continue. So what you are seeing is this process in operation, and that accounts for every product available. As the buyer you are free to choose whichever one best suits your needs and only you can make that choice. As soon as an individual product stops providing the needs of it's market segment it will fade away. So the best advice is to buy based on your own personal needs and trust the marketplace to adjust accordingly. Which it will, with or without you as the individual.
Jim
remember several years ago with defective fasteners? Require labeled of manufacturer origin fasteners at least used in highway products now.
The Chinese started copying Webasto/Eberspacher/Espar/etc after their original patents ran out. Even before that happened, those companies were being investigated by European authorities for price rigging and monopolistic practices. Those same companies' products are now being made in China simply because it's cheaper to do so. The Germans were doing very well for all those years, but all good things eventually end. What we're now seeing is the inexorable and inevitable transition of manufacturing power (among many other things) from "the West" to China and Asia, as old empires wither and die and others rise up to take their place. Nothing is sacrosanct or off limits any more. America and Europe have had their day, and now it's the turn of others. Obviously the waning empires will squeal loudest when they find they are no longer top dog any more, but change is inevitable. Isn't this what free-market economies are about: competition, survival of the fittest, adapt or die, etc.
John
"Either shortcuts were taken, workers were shafted, the government subsidized, or a little of each were done to get the price down this low."
It was mentioned but under recognized that it is the absolute theft of the intellectual property involved with the product by countries like China. The investment by legit companies needs to be recouped and having their product copied and ripping off the original patent holders is what contributes a lot to a lower price. There are other factors but avoiding all investment expenses plus the cheap labor, lack of environmental protection, and government schemes makes it impossible for countries to be competitive. Whether it be tariffs or our own domestic subsidies or such to make prices competitive, unless something is done it will be business as usual.
Quote from: windtrader on November 22, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
...It was mentioned but under recognized that it is the absolute theft of the intellectual property involved with the product by countries like China. ...
Good point. I'll have to add that to my list for the next time this comes up.
You drive a late model Ford diesel truck you have the DFC Chinese engine it was a piece of $#!% for awhile but they got it right now with the 6.7 like it not the Chinese are here in our lives. I try not to buy the Chinese made parts of any kind
Quote I try not to buy the Chinese made parts of any kind
Clifford, what you smoking tonight? If you are still alive and kicking you consume a boatload of stuff from China, whether you like it or not.
It would be very interesting to seriously and fully living here today on 100% domestic products and services, nothing imported and what your standard of living would be. Would you have all you desire to be comfortable, how much spare change would you have left after spending more on nearly everything? It seems you may be walking around with nothing on except some hand knitted underway with a Made in USA label hanging off the back. lol
It hard to buy anything made in US lol I paid 65 bucks for a shirt with the US made label Sat .The big box stores control us with the over priced junk . American companies with plants there are not bad the knock off is junk