As some here know, I mostly use my bus for one 4,000 mile trip every September. We usually use the inverter at night when A/C is not needed. My issue is my battery bank is shot. I currently have six 100 amp hour AGM batteries. I can't even run everything for more than a few hours on battery.
Is it worth replacing the battery bank for something like $2,500 to $3,000, or just run the generator all the time? I figure an extra 50 to 75 gallons of diesel per trip for that. Lithium batteries are probably out of the picture due to cost. Lithium batteries can also be destroyed by excess heat, or by charging at 32 degrees F or lower. It gets way below 32F in the winter although lithium batteries can be disconnected for the winter without issue unlike most AGM batteries.
Many discount lithium which is surprising amongst us pretty capable DIY crowd. For some reason, most are comfortable with mechanical and construction projects but seem less inclined to DIY a battery system.
You can do a very robust lithium battery and/or solar system for pennies on the dollar if you are willing to put the time in to researching good sources and known how to qualify raw and already assembled battery packs.
Yes, there are operating considerations such as minimum charge temperatures. This is easily overcome by simply insulating the battery box and stuffing a low watt incandescent light to keep the pack withing operating range. You could also use a run of the mill small heating pad to the sea effect.
Excessive heat? Well, again insulated battery and well ventilated box stored in the bay will suffice in most cases. At worst case, put a small wall AC to keep within operating range,
Remember, you are not building some puny battery but one that easily exceeds 10kW to 15kW, lots of power to run all your stuff as you need.
Costs - Sure you can pay $1000 per kW for a plug-in battery like Battleborn or others. Why not DIY the same capacity for $120 per kW. When I built mine a couple of years ago, typical pricing is $100/kW; it's gone up some but not a crazy increase.
Being totally off the grid and off a genny totally is an incredibly powerful and freeing feeling. Makes it just like living at home within reason. Keep all the lights on as you want, run the microwave anytime, etc.
I already have enough things to do without spending dozens of hours learning how to build my own lithium battery bank having to deal with balancing cells and all that. Heating batteries with a light bulb works great until the bulb burns out and you lose the entire bank. (Yes, I could put in a temperature monitor.) It would be a no brainer to use lithium batteries if I used my bus more than eight days per year.
Aren't the really cheap lithium options done with used batteries from electric vehicles which may, or may not, be any good?
If you use your bus only 8 days a year, maybe just sell it and rent an RV. WAY cheaper. My comment is simply that there seems to be a DIYer mindset and an observation that DIY on the electrical supply end generates less enthusiasm.
FYI - There are all sorts of batteries available on the secondary market, That is why I stated one needs to get educated before jumping in. In your case, it does not many any sense to pursue that and I apologize if you felt I was pressuring you that way.
Why not go old school and install 4 lead acids for about 500 bucks,, should last about 6 years with care..>>>Dan
Just run the generator.
Lithium is not cost effective for the weekend camper, yet...
And any significant battery bank makes no sence for once a year use, when there is a robust generator present.
Nobody that lives in the winter uses light bulbs for anything but light. Just about useless in Brian's locale. How many BTU in a lightbulb?
Building your own lithium batteries is in the same timing as building your own computer... we're just waiting for the flood of formalized assemblers to break the high priced stranglehold, and then no one except the extremists and hobiests will build their own.
Timing is everything...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
If one is building a bus conversion today and has no generator then it would be prudent to look at lithium storage. I assure you if you are reasonably clever and willing then you can do batteries for less than a typical diesel generator. There are always naysayers, especially while in an early adopter stage. Meaning - no point in expending energy trying to convince the inconvincible.
It's a personal preference thing. If you're like me and hate disturbing the quiet of the woods running the generator all night then get some new batteries. If you camp where others won't mind the generator and you don't mind it, then run it all night long.
Me? I'd get some lower cost batteries to hold me through for a while.
We have hybrid WLA on house bank & starters with remote battery latching relays so we have compatibility with both banks together either/or for the inverter/charger and retain our first generation conventional 40A charger for backup redundancy. Otr we run rooftop A/C with start batteries feeding inverter and 200A alternator keeping batteries charged. With a little solar sprinkled on all the works. Hardly need the genny but it's there...
I just spent the summer camping on our lot waiting for power and using gennerator to charge my wet batteries when needed . It took about 3-4 hrs a day to bring them back up to 100% for the next night and so on .
The biggest problem with running the generators
( a big 12k diesel , a 2500 gas inverter genny )
we had a problem with the diesel as if it was cool or the weather was in a low the diesel that went out the stack above the coach exhaust would then flow down ? and hug the ground ?
so sitting outside or opening the windows was a no go
so we used the small gas genny with a 75' 6 gage cord far away in the bush so you could not here it or smell it but had to turn down the charging on the magnun to 60 % so other stuff would work when needed
It was fun but if there was a choise to not run the genny I would have gone for that . We do have 400 watts of solar but because we choise to be under the shade of the trees it did not help to much
I 2nd the buy new 6 volt batteries to save some use of the genny
ps we now have 200 amps of power for the next camp out on site 8)
dave
My battery compartment is set up to use only AGM or Lithium batteries. The compartment is not vented or sealed well enough for regular lead acid batteries.
The event I go to is out in the middle of the desert with many other generators running. It isn't a quiet forest where my generator running will ruin the peace and quiet.
If I were only going on one four thousand mile trip a year I sure wouldn't invest a bunch of money in batteries when you have a generator. Years ago when we went sand railing in the boon docks we always ran our generator. Even if you have to buy 100 gallons of diesel its only once a year for you. If your boon docking all the time I under stand batteries.
Quote from: windtrader on September 30, 2021, 02:18:42 PM
If you use your bus only 8 days a year, maybe just sell it and rent an RV. WAY cheaper. My comment is simply that there seems to be a DIYer mindset and an observation that DIY on the electrical supply end generates less enthusiasm.
I looked into all options, including rental, before choosing to build a bus. A motorhome, rental or owned, does not have enough beds for the five to eight guys that go on my trip every year. Motorhomes also don't usually have as much water capacity as my bus. Class A rentals are almost always gas and would probably struggle to pull a 7,000 pound trailer. A rental gets pretty expensive when you are driving 4,000 miles in eight days and also using the generator from 12 to 24 hours per day.
My bus is very customized for what I do. I have things like an outlet in the rear to provide 110 volt power to the trailer while in tow to keep a deep freeze running and an outside outlet that can provide up to 30 amps for powering all the stuff we use while at the event.
I'm not ruling out DIY lithium batteries, but it seems quite easy to make a mistake and cause a fire, or worse. I do all my own electrical in my bus and my house and don't worry about electricity for those projects. I even get permits for work on the house and have always passed inspection first time around.
I would go with 2 smaller gas generators with parallel kit and use the batteries you have. For once a year big trip, would be the better idea. No need to have expensive batteries to take care of 11 months out of the year. Lot of expensive new age battery leg humpers here lately. Yes, those batteries are good but not desirable in your situation. Maybe adding some solar for assist though.
I already have a 12.5KW diesel generator. I am just trying to decide if getting a new battery bank to cut down running time on the generator by about 1/3 is worth it.
If you only go once a year I can't imagine you will ever wear out that 12.5 diesel generator. You already have it. It works. Lots of opinions here which is I suppose you were after but I think you already have a good option on board. I think it comes down to your personal preference. I have the roof space and belly space to do the solar panels and a pile of battleborn in the belly. Makes sense, saves money, easier on the planet, but I like what I have. Not doing it. But don't follow my lead. I just changed from a flip phone out of necessity, and wish the TV remote had less than 37 buttons.
Best of luck.
Brian
Run the generator. That is what I do when we travel in the hot summer time to Iowa and Illinois. We park on the levee at the Mississippi river and it keeps everything comfortable. I have a wrico similar to yours and it only uses about a third of a gallon an hour. We have run the generator on one trip when the inverter died for 6 days 24/7. That was when I figured out that it doesn't use that much diesel. We will even skip RV parks if it gets complicated to find one. I mean five gallons of diesel is only 20 bucks. So I say it again RUN THE GENERATOR.
HTH
YMMV
Melbo
My 4 Lifeline 8-D's charge from the engine alternator (13.1 V ) driving but if we are not plugged in at shut down on the road I still need to run my generator for a few hours to reach the 14.3 V bulk and absorption rate for the Lifelines if not they don't last through the night sometimes.With the electronic engine and transmission I am not going beyond 13.3 v on the engine charging system generator fuel is cheap
just run the genset imo. i dont have a single house battery lol
With the money invested in the generator, make use of it, unless lightly loaded. Batteries are like horses, nice to have but they still need maintenance when not used.
What I think I will do is just buy two batteries (I am running 24 volts.). I already have the inverter. We have to shut off the generator while crossing the desert, or the generator will ingest a bunch of dust.
The generator is running with little load at night. A CPAP machine or two, an electric blanket, some phone chargers, and a deep freeze/frig/water heater running periodically.
Quote from: belfert on October 02, 2021, 05:41:31 AM
What I think I will do is just buy two batteries (I am running 24 volts.)
Brian -You mentioned that you have four 100 amp/hr batteries that are shot right now, but you never mentioned what "size" they are. Are they Group 31s? The monster 8Ds? The semi-monster 4Ds? Group 27s? Group 24s? The way you describe their use, it sounds like they're deep-cycle for the house side of things.
If you can share with us what battery Group size they are (NOT the amp/hr rating), perhaps we can better assist you making an intelligent decision.
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
Says he has 6 =100 amp AGM probably 6 volt standby commutations batteries ,makes no difference 6 - 100 amp batteries on 12 or 24 volt won't make a cup of coffee
Five 100AH batteries will power an inverter to run a rooftop air conditioner for over two hours.
sure is nice to make coffee and toast a bagel in the morning without starting the genny
dave
6-100 aH batteries at 24 volts is not much,he would be better off buying 3 - 8v golf cart batteries most of those are 200AH and you can buy the take outs for 50 bucks ea new they cost around $150.00 ea
These batteries made it through the night just fine when I first installed them. They are 12 volt. I was incorrect on the amp hours. They are 170 amp hour batteries. They are set up essentially as three 24 volt 170 AH batteries. I use equal length battery cables for all batteries.
That is still only 500 amp hours @24V that is not much when using a coffee pot or a microwave oven for a light load like a Cpap it should do fine
You have a very decent set up! We love our recent diy decent inverter/solar addition which is only 500AH @ 12V. Like Dave said can do lots of things that would have normally required genny power.
Yep we have 8, 6 volt deep cycle 232AH batteries with 1500 watts of solar panels. Can run everything to include one of the two AC roof tops. The Vctron Charge controller keep the bat charged even while using battery power through the 4024 Hybrid magnum Inverter. When cloudy or even rainy the batteries are kept charged to 28.6 and the lowest I have seen them was after running stuff all day like TV and coffee two computers etc was 25.5 and then as we sleep and wake up to full batteries again.
We use the genny only when we need both AC's like in stinkin hot Arizona or Texas, LOL
I think about solar :^ but cannot bring myself to install that ugly stuff on top of my RV lol these generators run for 20,000 hours without problems so with 1410 hours showing I can put it off for while
Clifford - Ugly panels? What about ugly being the shades bolted onto the side of the bus? And let's not forget the generator noise groaning along and disrupting and masking the sound of nature? All tradeoffs - I say ditch the generator and go silent!
Our panels are hardly noticeable but we have a supplement solar setup - not trying for off-grid. Will always have a genny because the sun is moody at times - especially in AK winters & anywhere darkness... Lol
I'll bethca whoever has primary solar don't prefer a shade tree anymore! Just saying.
Quote from: windtrader on October 03, 2021, 09:58:48 AM
Clifford - Ugly panels? What about ugly being the shades bolted onto the side of the bus? And let's not forget the generator noise groaning along and disrupting and masking the sound of nature? All tradeoffs - I say ditch the generator and go silent!
You cannot tell my awning are on the side of my RV 2-20ft built into the flaring not bolted to the sides and no arms
So those would hide your solar panels. :^
Quote from: Dave5Cs on October 03, 2021, 12:04:53 PM
So those would hide your solar panels. :^
I am not going solar Dave I don't like the looks and it would not be a advantage for me I am on the road not parked most of the time lol I have a wife nagging about solar as you know so far I am winning
I would need to completely cover my bus in solar panels to come close to meeting my electric needs. There isn't really a chance I could avoid running my generator with three 15,000 BTU air conditioners. I have an extra solar panel I could put on my bus, but not sure it is worth it.
I have DIY solar at home that provides 150% of my electric needs. I currently have a $450 credit with my electric company. Whatever is left after winter I will cash out. From Thanksgiving to late February I will likely not produce enough solar to cover my electricity usage.
Quote from: windtrader on September 30, 2021, 02:18:42 PM
FYI - There are all sorts of batteries available on the secondary market, That is why I stated one needs to get educated before jumping in. In your case, it does not many any sense to pursue that and I apologize if you felt I was pressuring you that way.
I've done more research on DIY LifePO4 and it may not be as bad as I thought it would be. I can get twice the capacity of a Battle Born battery for the same price. Battle Born is certainly easier. The worst part seems to be finding a good supplier of the LifePO4 cells.
Quote from: belfert on October 03, 2021, 08:11:45 AM
These batteries made it through the night just fine when I first installed them. They are 12 volt. I was incorrect on the amp hours. They are 170 amp hour batteries. They are set up essentially as three 24 volt 170 AH batteries. I use equal length battery cables for all batteries.
Brian -OK, they're 12vdc, 170 amp hour batteries, but again, what "Group Size" are they?
They're not a standard group size as you would buy off the shelf from anywhere. Specialized, golf car, etc. Group 31s are usually 100 to 105AH each in the WLA arena.
It seems to me that it would be good to have some level of battery coverage so that the genset would not need to be started for trivia. Other than that regarding the original question, according to your requirements one could get by depending on the generator instead of an expensive battery system that may or may not be good for your trip next year. The criteria I would be looking at is what others around you do and what they can be expected to cordially tolerate. If many are using generators (or playing loud music), it may not be an issue to add yours to the general din. However, if everyone else is in silence mode it would be obviously obnoxious to run it.
Quote from: RJ on October 03, 2021, 05:12:21 PM
OK, they're 12vdc, 170 amp hour batteries, but again, what "Group Size" are they?
They are a telecom battery which is not really a standard group size. See the attached image I found with Google.
It really doesn't matter what I have now as these batteries are junk. I am not going to buy more telecom batteries. I got these batteries for free and they lasted me four or five years.
Thanks Brian now RJ knows Dan had it figured out they were off the wall type batteries by the amp rating :^
Hey I get lots of positive comments about my solar panels!!!
(https://www.crystalpoint.com/cpdownloads/public/outgoing/Freds/buscurrent.png)
Current mulling around spending money on fixing the diesel generator or yanking it out for more battery storage space.
Quote from: belfert on October 04, 2021, 04:14:13 AM
They are a telecom battery which is not really a standard group size.
Brian -Thank you. Now I have a better understanding of what you're talking about.
Just for a point of reference, I have four deep-cycle AGM 8D batteries powering the house side of things in my coach. I can easily go overnight running the household fridge, but I do need to run the genset during the day to top them back off - just like most other all-electric coach owners have to do.
As a curiosity question - and since you've been considering a DIY LiPo battery project - in the space available, might you be able to build a LiPo battery that is equal to or even greater capacity than the telecom batteries you're removing?
I could put in LifePO4 batteries that would have slightly more amp hours than my AGM batteries for around $2,500. I would have more usable amp hours since LifePO4 batteries can be discharged much further without damage. I have enough space that I could put in even more LifePO4 batteries for double the amp hours of my AGM batteries, but it would cost me around $5,000.
I can buy a lot of generator fuel for $2,500.
Sounds like you came to the same outcome as a few already posted earlier. Run the Genny , just doesn't make sense to invest anything more then just running the generator imo based on your planned yearly use. I mean have new batteries these just sitting around for 11 months each year for once a year trip? Even buying a replacement Lead acid bank doesn't really make any sense being you have a genny already to handle your one time use yearly trip already. Best hope your Genny doesn't fail due to prolong yearly sitting , other then that just use what you have already.
Quote from: belfert on October 05, 2021, 05:55:57 AM
I could put in LifePO4 batteries that would have slightly more amp hours than my AGM batteries for around $2,500. I would have more usable amp hours since LifePO4 batteries can be discharged much further without damage. I have enough space that I could put in even more LifePO4 batteries for double the amp hours of my AGM batteries, but it would cost me around $5,000.
I can buy a lot of generator fuel for $2,500.
Actually with the LifePO4 batteries you have double the usable power as you are not supposed to discharge AGM batteries below 50%.
There are many finer points about lithium that one just has to believe or spend the time researching and learning the principles of nominal vs full capacity, DOD, SOC, C charge and discharge rates, continuous vs peak discharge, chemistry, effects of DOD on charge cycles, etc. That is just the raw cells. then there are all the factors such as BMS functions, cell balancing, wiring, chargers, etc. Some here go on about operating in cold but get way off track on a trivial consideration as it takes practically zero engineering to have a battery box keep batteries in operating range. All these other factors are what matters a lot more. The other one that really is a waste of time trying to convey is the difference in charging for lithium vs lead batteries.
Those of us that have taken the time to research, learn, and apply understand the vast benefits. I'm getting close to not bother replying except to those who post specific questions that show the basics are understood and need help sorting out options or tradeoffs etc.
To be fair, this a forum for BUS topics and the nitty gritty of lithium storage and solar power really need to be done in their appropriate forums, not here.
Quote from: windtrader on October 16, 2021, 03:18:50 PM
There are many finer points about lithium that one just has to believe or spend the time researching and learning the principles of nominal vs full capacity, DOD, SOC, C charge and discharge rates, continuous vs peak discharge, chemistry, effects of DOD on charge cycles, etc. That is just the raw cells. then there are all the factors such as BMS functions, cell balancing, wiring, chargers, etc. Some here go on about operating in cold but get way off track on a trivial consideration as it takes practically zero engineering to have a battery box keep batteries in operating range. All these other factors are what matters a lot more. The other one that really is a waste of time trying to convey is the difference in charging for lithium vs lead batteries.
Those of us that have taken the time to research, learn, and apply understand the vast benefits. I'm getting close to not bother replying except to those who post specific questions that show the basics are understood and need help sorting out options or tradeoffs etc.
To be fair, this a forum for BUS topics and the nitty gritty of lithium storage and solar power really need to be done in their appropriate forums, not here.
quote
Lol I thought you were writing a article for BCM to publish to help us just kidding.I know I will need to do a lot of research on solar and storage since we bought 173 acres in Globe where the summers are milder than here.Power is about a mile away and ARP wants $185,000.00 to run the power to the land so solar and batteries here I come we are going to be off grid I think they call that
]
Good memory. I did inquire about writing about DIY lithium battery project, then decided to wait for a couple reasons. Article would carry a lot more value if presented after some time in service. With over a year, that is now met. The other major aspect, at least for me, was the off grid system which includes solar panels. So, now with a year of solar feeding the battery system, there is no excuses. LOL I'll follow up with Gary as it is time to get that submitted. thanks
Quote from: windtrader on October 16, 2021, 11:07:09 PM
Good memory. I did inquire about writing about DIY lithium battery project, then decided to wait for a couple reasons. Article would carry a lot more value if presented after some time in service. With over a year, that is now met. The other major aspect, at least for me, was the off grid system which includes solar panels. So, now with a year of solar feeding the battery system, there is no excuses. LOL I'll follow up with Gary as it is time to get that submitted. thanks
Good deal I do better reading black and white,I did some searching last night on utube and google.Utube is boring to me everyone has a different opinion and to wrapped in their self. With google this morning I have about 100 ads people trying to sell solar and batteries lol some offering free solar, that is going to happen nothing is free in this world
Who is buying 173 acres? Windy or Clifford cant tell the way that reads?
not me. i own 5000 acres with a few other owners. Staging area for the retreat when the collapse comes. :(
Rick and I bought the 173 acres in Globe at the foot of the Pina Mountains and Tonto National Forest flat with good water and plenty of pine trees @ 5400 ft elevation,I'll send you some photos
Quote from: windtrader on October 17, 2021, 11:44:12 AM
not me. i own 5000 acres with a few other owners. Staging area for the retreat when the collapse comes. :(
Oh no another Coast to Coast listener. A friend of ours keeps talking about all this, LOL :^
Quote from: Dave5Cs on October 17, 2021, 12:49:51 PM
Oh no another Coast to Coast listener. A friend of ours keeps talking about all this, LOL :^
Do people really listen to him ??? tuning the radio one time he was on,in about 10 seconds I found another station
He who laughs last laughs best. And can laugh at all! Cheap insurance and sure nice to know you got a place to go where you have rights of access. Not getting political but the way the public is losing their minds and forcing less laws being enforced and the increase of crime, my view is this persistent trend leads to less personal safety. Who knows where it ends up, people wake up or ignore it all until it snaps and too late. My view is one of taking care of others, family and close friends who would benefit from living in a safe haven while it gets sorted out. Just like insurance, you don't need it until you do, then it's too late.
Quote from: windtrader on October 17, 2021, 11:44:12 AM
not me. i own 5000 acres with a few other owners. Staging area for the retreat when the collapse comes. :(
In Hornbrook?
Ya Don is that it Hornbrook, LOL :^ In the State of Jefferson, Hummmmmm
Quote from: luvrbus on October 17, 2021, 02:02:56 PM
Do people really listen to him ??? tuning the radio one time he was on,in about 10 seconds I found another station
I knew a bunch of people who listen to C to C and Alex J and they believe all this stuff.
I always tell them who cares live life and enjoy it we will all die someday and I would of hated to miss it ya know because of IF's or it could happen or when if. LOL
I know a lady that keeps going around telling people the electric will all stop soon and we all will not be able to do anything. She said she read it on the internet??????......
Quote from: Dave5Cs on October 17, 2021, 07:08:34 PM
I knew a bunch of people who listen to C to C and Alex J and they believe all this stuff.
I always tell them who cares live life and enjoy it we will all die someday and I would of hated to miss it ya know because of IF's or it could happen or when if. LOL
I know a lady that keeps going around telling people the electric will all stop soon and we all will not be able to do anything. She said she read it on the internet??????......
Who is Alex J lol I need to get out more the world is ending and I didn't know ,I haven't watched the tv news in 3 years things I don't have control over in my life I let go and it pisses some off like my wife :^
Yes, the ranch is in/around Hornbrook. Perfectly situated to a mass amount of remote, as far as CA goes, land. Hard to find better location for staging for off-grid.
Yes - Dave - State of Jefferson country. I know there is some association with right wing types but all my dealings do not find that prevalent. https://soj51.org If you believe what they state as their primary platform, then it is pretty much all about politics and desire for independence from the jaws of government, particularly overbearing CA regulations and under-representation of rural communities.
What I do find is a lot of illegal grows are present and many are operated by the Hmong, those displaced Cambodians who assisted the CIA and US military, and were pretty much left behind like those today that assisted in Afghanistan. The local authorities spend a fair bit of energy finding and shutting the farms down but it goes on. I know this because every single time I go to local hardware stores and see "gardeners" in the plumbing isles, hands full of all sort of fittings and such.
Encountering illegal grows is my number one concern when escaping to the massive open lands, not stumbling into some right wing radical although there must be survivalists and other such folks out there.
I been to Hornbrook before just south of the Oregon border off I 5 on the Klamath River right,rode with friend from Weed to Hornbrook not much there as I recall.Nothing wrong with being a survivalist, I know a lot of people you could call a survivalist and are not nut cases about 1/2 are Mormons that live off the land
windtrader said: "Yes, the ranch is in/around Hornbrook. Perfectly situated to a mass amount of remote, as far as CA goes, land. Hard to find better location for staging for off-grid."
I mentioned Hornbrook as I remember you were moving trailers from there to Sacto?
I have bluegrass friends that live in Hornbrook. They are in their 90's now. Great people, Christians. I believe I know the ranch you speak of, actually north side of Hornbrook if I remember correctly.
Quote from: windtrader on October 18, 2021, 11:52:45 AM
Yes, the ranch is in/around Hornbrook. Perfectly situated to a mass amount of remote, as far as CA goes, land. Hard to find better location for staging for off-grid.
Yes - Dave - State of Jefferson country. I know there is some association with right wing types but all my dealings do not find that prevalent. https://soj51.org If you believe what they state as their primary platform, then it is pretty much all about politics and desire for independence from the jaws of government, particularly overbearing CA regulations and under-representation of rural communities.
What I do find is a lot of illegal grows are present and many are operated by the Hmong, those displaced Cambodians who assisted the CIA and US military, and were pretty much left behind like those today that assisted in Afghanistan. The local authorities spend a fair bit of energy finding and shutting the farms down but it goes on. I know this because every single time I go to local hardware stores and see "gardeners" in the plumbing isles, hands full of all sort of fittings and such.
Encountering illegal grows is my number one concern when escaping to the massive open lands, not stumbling into some right wing radical although there must be survivalists and other such folks out there.
Don you told us you got out of there because it was freaky and you were worried about the people. I guess sign of the times.
Well, it is insurance so hopefully not needed but IF sh...t hits the fan, then heading for the ranch seems a lot more attractive than staying put in this already crazy filled lunatic town. If there are even fewer police around, the increased lawlessness is what people apparently want around here anyway. And, yes, I am as nuts as everyone else these days. LOL
now back to bus topics.
The nut cases are the ones people are trying to survive from this country is in a mess and getting worse, times have changed. I worry about the future it is not looking good IMO man I miss the 50's :^