I'm looking for the flex plate and starter ring gear to mate a Cat 34xx engine to the Allison HT755 in my Bluebird.
I'm reading online that this combo was offered in some Kenworth and Peterbilt trucks.
I called a few local KW dealers. All this stuff was made when the guy at the parts counter was still "a twinkle in daddy's eye"
I have a call out to Progressive in Jacksonville FL. No luck yet.
Does anyone have suggestions who can help me find these parts?
In fact I saw a 1970's MCI with a retrofitted 3406 and HT75x a while back. Didn't get to meet the owner. So I know it's been done before but not how.
Thoughts ??
Global in Tucson Az may have used parts 520-295-1372 ,is the engine eletronic ? the 755 is electrinoic controled,you don't want to the parts from Cat for the conversion last time it cost me almost 7G's with the adapter,depending on the applaction the Allison came from you may end up with a new torqe converter
Global/Arizona Transmission Exchange is out of business. I was there last week and spoke with the widow of Kim the owner. He died last Oct. and the place is largely empty but I did see a bunch of cores sitting in the back. Sounded like she is trying to sell the place. Don't know if she is trying to get rid of left over parts or not. Call and maybe she will answer.
Quote from: Boomer on April 07, 2021, 07:53:10 PM
Global/Arizona Transmission Exchange is out of business. I was there last week and spoke with the widow of Kim the owner. He died last Oct. and the place is largely empty but I did see a bunch of cores sitting in the back. Sounded like she is trying to sell the place. Don't know if she is trying to get rid of left over parts or not. Call and maybe she will answer.
Kim passed away over 2 years ago.I had a feeling it wasn't going to make it when she fired Bobby the son of Kim and turned it over to her boy friend
Can't really blame her. Not interested in the business herself, so sell and move on with her life. Too bad though.
Quote from: chessie4905 on April 08, 2021, 06:40:09 AM
Can't really blame her. Not interested in the business herself, so sell and move on with her life. Too bad though.
Transmissions were not their largest revenue intake ,they were into engine power plants for the oil field and I understand Bobby took that part of the bussines away when she fired him.There was some hard feelings since she wasn't married to Kim very long before he passed away,too bad but it happens when families get into pissing matches
You probably right, I only heard her say Oct. when she was telling her tale of woe. She was really knocking Richard and saying how she fired him too.
I've been digging a bit and it seems that the 755 behind a big cat was a rare combination. Detroit is the most common, cummins second most.
Lots of little 3126, 3116 cats with auto's but not the big ones
Another thing I found was that the 4000 series are all around better than the 755. More gears, more overdrive, higher ratings, and shorter. One of my limitations was the length if transmission + engine.
Although I've owned a bunch of 5,6,700 series Allisons and they never ever let me down.
Still, if something has to be custom made it seems better to upgrade.
Is there a difference between the 755 and 4000 in terms of how they mount to the engine? From what I've been able to see so far it seems the same.
Vogue,Newell,Foretravel and Country Coach all used the 4000 MH Allision behind the 3406 E,later they were using the CAT CX31 6 speed behind the E and C-15 the CX is plug play behind the CAT 3406 .I helped Sonnie install a 700 series behind his 3406 it cost and with the 1:1 final ratio we went to a 2:94 ratio rear gear to give the Cat a little breathing room it didn't like the 3:36 ratio not 1 bit
That Cat CX31 seems very expensive.
https://www.allisontransmission.com/docs/default-source/marketing-materials/sa7943en_-2017-vocational-model-guide_-vmg-lr9af07359281567eeb272ff0000a566aa.pdf?sfvrsn=13
The 44/45/4600 series have the wide ratio which is nice. You need that extra kick when you're trying to get out of a campground up a 10% grade at 12,000 feet.
And with the retarder they're only 30" long which is shorter than my HT755
I have the 3406e with a 4060 and I am very happy with all of it tons of power and good mileage and no emissions . There must be lots of this combo out there as mine is a 1999 year . The weight of my coach loaded for a trip is 42k lbs
dave
I saw a BlueBird that burn sell cheap with a C-13 and a Allison,if you have the right gearing the World Allision B500 or 4000 series is the way to go,the 4060 has a PTO used for fan drives on most RV's
Quote from: sledhead on April 09, 2021, 04:25:07 AM
I have the 3406e with a 4060 and I am very happy with all of it tons of power and good mileage and no emissions . There must be lots of this combo out there as mine is a 1999 year . The weight of my coach loaded for a trip is 42k lbs
dave
Can you get your engine serial number and arrangement number from your engine? It should be on a data plate somewhere.
Actually the ideal would be the bellhousing number, it should look something like this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3406B-Caterpillar-Bellhousing-7N8367/164802180788?hash=item265ef9b6b4:g:j3kAAOSwiHVf4Pyx
Quote from: luvrbus on April 09, 2021, 04:56:18 AM
I saw a BlueBird that burn sell cheap with a C-13 and a Allison,if you have the right gearing the World Allision B500 or 4000 series is the way to go,the 4060 has a PTO used for fan drives on most RV's
Interesting you mention the PTO. My wanderlodge has the hydraulic fan drive directly on the engine (camshaft) but the Cat engine doesn't have such a provision so I need an alternative. Electric fans get nowhere near the power of the hydraulic ones. A PTO would be a possible solution. Although that makes the transmission about 10" longer.
The pto on the 4060 is on the side mine is ,it is amazing the hp and torque the 4060 handles mine is behind a ISX 15 Cummins 600 hp and 2050 ft lbs of torque
I misspoke it's only 3" longer. According to the Allison specs , the 4000 series without PTO is 30.54" long and with PTO it is 33.41"
The HT755 is listed at 43" , I think that's the 10" difference that was in my brain somehow.
Waterlodge I sent you a P M
dave
Is your engine a 3406e?
I called up several Allison dealers. One of the Dartco engineers I spoke to was extremely helpful. He found that all the parts to mate my engine and transmission were readily available from them new. Or at least they seem to be -- I need to send them some measurements to make sure their computer came up with the right stuff.
They also convinced me to upgrade the transmission as well. They can sell me a 4560 transmission with new computer, wiring harness, mechanical TPS, flexplate, all ready to plug and play. It's pricey but it will be a good upgrade from the HT755. I must say the 755 has served me well, never had issues. It's just getting old and the 4500's have higher HP ratings, lower starting gear, overdrive, all good things to have.
I was originally going with a 3408 cat but I couldn't help myself and bought a 3412. It's badass. It needs to be completely rebuilt so before buying expensive Allison stuff I first need to go over this engine and make sure there aren't any showstoppers, like the broken crankshaft that the Cat engines 3408 and 3412 can suffer from.
LOL you are joking ,with the 3412 you would need another axle to carry the the 3412
It does, it has a tag axle
Quote from: waterlodge on April 16, 2021, 04:33:44 PM
It does, it has a tag axle
You will need another one ,I service one at the mine the friggn radiator is 7 ft x 5 ft by 8 inches thick
Meh, I calculated it will increase the overall weight of the RV by about 7%.
Go for it
I have an 8V92 sitting here , ready to be installed.
Then I was watching Bus Grease Monkey to inframes on one after the other 8V92
Then I remembered how I've already had several 8V92's go south on me as well.
Then I remembered how I could barely get in and out of campgrounds in Colorado.
The 3408 has a lot more torque than the 8V92 so that's what I was thinking of when starting this thread.
It ended up that the one I was looking at was a PC engine. The 3408 PC's are kind of lame.
Found a 3412 DI
It was cheap because it's in unknown condition , so I'll be going through it before even pulling the old engine out. The achilles heel of these engines seem to be broken crankshafts so that'll be first on the checklist.
Do you know of any cheap parts sources?
The 3408 is 18L engine sure it has more torque than a 13L 8v92 ,I had the 3408 in 3 CAT scrapers only problem I ever had was they cracked heads or break head bolts never broke a crank in one They were good engines just that they were thirsty for fuel like 200 gals a day.The 3412 is a monster of a engine and a heavy sucker
Wouldn't be simpler to set up a V12-92?
Quote from: chessie4905 on April 16, 2021, 07:40:20 PM
Wouldn't be simpler to set up a V12-92?
Hope he takes photos stuffing a 27L (1650CI) 3412 engine in a Blue Bird
WAIT!!!!!
You want to some how fit a 3412 in a BB, AND find "cheap" parts?
If the place you got the engine from GAVE you 20K to haul it off, You're still WAY upside down.
BTW, I'm all for creativity, But I prefer to stay reasonable.
I'm sure the frame, suspension and axles will handle that without any issue.
I hope it goes as planned for you.
He should have plenty of power the 3412 is the C-27 used in the D-10 dozers that weighs 155,000 lbs
I looked at the Mack E9's but they're a 90 degree V and very wide.
The 34xx series is a 60 degree V so even though the cylinders are bigger it's about the same width as the 92, I think we got 37"
The height is also about the same. The 8V92 is actually kind of tall because it has the airbox, aftercooler, supercharger and turbo all stacked on top of each other.
The big difference is the length. The 8V92 came in around 44" and the 3412 at 60" so that's an extra 16"
I can get it down to about 56" if I take the huge fan drive pulley off.
I plan to cut a corner out of the bedroom that gives me an extra 22" at the top end.
I'll also make a hatch there so you can reach the back of the engine. Currently it is almost impossible to reach the alternator, air compressor and hydraulic pump on the back of the engine. Ask Bus Grease Monkey about changing out the compressor coolant hoses on a Wanderlodge.
The 3412s in loaders are wider because the turbo's are on the side.
This one has the turbo's above the bellhousing. It looks like this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG6Rr-J_UEM
If I read their dyno screen it says 1170 HP at 1800 rpm that's incredible. I'm not shooting that high, we're going for 850-900, we're building to an existing cat OEM configuration that has that rating. They have higher ones too >1000 but it will be too much to try and build a transmission and cooling system.
From everything I read online it's the PC engines that are more thirsty but the DI engines work well. I have a Freightliner semi with a 3406B and it's been a good engine.
I have a few 3306PC engines, one in a 235 excavator and a 14E grader. They use a lot of fuel but I don't have a comparison.
Anyway it's an RV , not a daily driver.
Yes I was thinking of taking videos as I go and make a montage.
As said for now I'm still pathfinding and figuring things out.
The common setting on the 3412 was from 550 hp to 650 hp ,I had 988 loader on lease it had a 15 cy bucket with a C-18 engine .The 8v92 is a good engine if done right but you cannot keep throwing liners and pistons at one and call it rebuilt that is just a band aid
Quote from: azdieselman on April 16, 2021, 08:25:03 PM
I prefer to stay reasonable.
This forum is about bus conversions is it not?
I've walked through the car shows. Rows and rows of model A's and model T's.
"kustom" with a small block chevy, aluminum intake, chrome one wire alternator, headers, cherry bombs. Extra points for a skull shifter.
All the stuff you see at Jeg's and Summit Racing all day long.
What's the point of customizing if you're doing all the same things everyone else does?
Of course there are a lot of benefits to doing the same things other people are doing , such as being able to get answers on forums, cheaper parts, etc. But if that is your preference it seems better to just keep things stock.
That, and, well, I grew up in Europe. We would go on vacation with a bicycle and a tent. So I guess from my perspective if you go on vacation in a 35,000# bus, "reasonable" is already long out of the picture 8)
Quote from: luvrbus on April 17, 2021, 08:26:55 AM
The common setting on the 3412 was from 550 hp to 650 hp
Correct. mine is at 575.
They did have 1000+ HP available from Cat. Look at this quad turbo monster
https://www.powergenenterprises.com/item-e4636-caterpillar-3412-diesel-1250hp-2100rpm-industrial-engines-2-available.html
""Rated at: 1250HP @ 2100RPM - Rebuilt by local CAT Dealer ""
That looks like a 3412B or C. It has the mechanical injection pump but I see some electronics on top , it may be the cat "PEEC" system, it's a mechanical injection pump with electronic governor.
But, you know, I prefer to stay reasonable. I'm going for only 900HP :P
I'm glad to see someone with push. :^ Make sure to take lots of pics, also it seems like you might need a radiator on both sides? Just my thought
Thanks! :D
Yes I'm planning to have a radiator on both sides. One will be a typical radiator setup. The other one will be in the feed line for the aftercooler which runs up the side of the engine. That way the aftercooler gets the coolest water available. Put a thermostat electric fan on it so you don't over-cool the engine in cold weather.
Although this engine does have two thermostats and two radiator exits (but only one return) so you could make a dual radiator setup that way. But the second radiator will be smaller so I'm not sure if you would have trouble with the flow rate.
It'll be slow going but I'll take videos and pictures as I go. I have a million projects , this is just one of them :)
What year is your bb? I took apart a 2000 , seemed very solid, probably one of the better buses to support a huge engine :o
Quote from: 6805eagleguy on April 17, 2021, 05:33:07 PM
What year is your bb? I took apart a 2000 , seemed very solid, probably one of the better buses to support a huge engine :o
1993 Bluebird Wanderlodge.
This thing was well kept, it's almost 30 years old and the paint and interior are still very fresh looking.
Drives (or, drove) like a dream. It feels like you're floating 5' above the road surface.
Yes they are crazy heavy duty. In the back it has a double (stacked) frame that's probably about 2x8" tall .
A lot heavier duty than the old MCI buses where the engine's basically hanging from the roof.
I like these 90's ones better than the >2000 ones when they started doing slide-outs which IMO are too prone to leaks and mechanical issues.
Gm buses hang from the roof the MCI is part of the body, I own a 45ft Country Coach Magna on the Dynamax Chassis that has more beef than the Blue Bird.I was shopping for a Blue Bird 450LXI and decided the Magna had more to offer I still like the Blue Birds,the Vogues have the double frame too
Adelman's has some military 903's. Both new and reman.
www.adelmans.com
Quote from: azdieselman on April 18, 2021, 11:17:39 AM
Adelman's has some military 903's. Both new and reman.
www.adelmans.com
There you go those make good boat anchors :^
Quote from: luvrbus on April 18, 2021, 01:56:49 PM
There you go those make good boat anchors :^
yes cummins are quite handy for holding boats
Quote from: 6805eagleguy on April 18, 2021, 03:03:40 PM
yes cummins are quite handy for holding boats
Not all Cummins are the v8/903 has been around a long time and I never understood why it was a dog ,a few buses had the left turning Cummins 903 and were dogs too
I was thinking that military build is probably the 600hp. That should be enough for most folks.
The 903 is the only V series Cummins I trust.
Find a wrecked truck with the DD16 600hp and DT12 automated 12spd. You'll have 600hp and 2050lb/ft of torque. The DD16 produces maximum torque at 975rpm! Gear for cruising at 1200rpm and you'll get towards 12mpg. Good luck,TomC
The 450LXI Blue Bird offered the ISX 15 Cummins 600 hp they easy to bump to 700 hp .I don't why you would need any thing larger my ISX 15 Cummins pushing a 45 ft weighing 48,000 lbs down the high way and up mountains and the Allision never drops below 4th gear and averages 7 to 7.8 MPG
The 8V92 was a dog too. It did ok in Texas at low altitude and rolling hills. But in Colorado 25mph up the hill, and on the steeper hills it flat out would not move at all. I'd have to back down the hill and make a long run for it. Happened several times in the one vacation we got with it.
Quote from: waterlodge on April 19, 2021, 06:44:37 AM
The 8V92 was a dog too. It did ok in Texas at low altitude and rolling hills. But in Colorado 25mph up the hill, and on the steeper hills it flat out would not move at all. I'd have to back down the hill and make a long run for it. Happened several times in the one vacation we got with it.
If it weren't for our four down toad(s) we too would have not been able to get the bus either up some hills or into some precarious pristine spots. The wife has that move (in the toad) down pat. Walky talky & no hand on the steering wheel in the toad! :^
Quote from: waterlodge on April 19, 2021, 06:44:37 AM
The 8V92 was a dog too. It did ok in Texas at low altitude and rolling hills. But in Colorado 25mph up the hill, and on the steeper hills it flat out would not move at all. I'd have to back down the hill and make a long run for it. Happened several times in the one vacation we got with it.
That was a easy fix you should have had someone adjust the fuel delay (modulator) or replace it ,I ran my 8v82TA in my Eagle all over the Rockies for 15 years lol I could average 48 MPH on I 17 from Phoenix to Flagstaff and that is a long climb when you leave Black Canyon.I have a dislike for for fuel modulators on a 2 stroke I have barrel full I have removed from the Detroit's go figure they don't take fuel if the turbo is not boosting and the turbo will not boost without fuel,you have the same problem with the DDEC 8v92's
Quote from: luvrbus on April 18, 2021, 08:18:45 PM
Not all Cummins are the v8/903 has been around a long time and I never understood why it was a dog ,a few buses had the left turning Cummins 903 and were dogs too
hehe ::)clifford i was only joking. How ever the isx 15 is the only cummins i have ever seen that is not a dog
Quote from: 6805eagleguy on April 19, 2021, 07:19:47 AM
hehe ::)clifford i was only joking. How ever the isx 15 is the only cummins i have ever seen that is not a dog
The ISX likes to work they are kin to the old 2 strokes when it comes to idling they do not like idle with their EGR system,they are new to me but I have Kevin (Azdieselman) and my buddy at Cummins in Phoenix that guide me lol
Clifford, could the fuel modulator on My DDEC2 be the cause of the turbo not spooling and the coach not moving when starting from a full stop at 6 degree plus grades? Tac just pegs at 1000 rpm
BTW I don't even know that I have one 😅
Quote from: niles500 on April 19, 2021, 02:19:10 PM
Clifford, could the fuel modulator on My DDEC2 be the cause of the turbo not spooling and the coach not moving when starting from a full stop at 6 degree plus grades? Tac just pegs at 1000 rpm
[/quote
DDEC don't use the modulator they have a boost sensor if the 1/4 inch hose has cracks or broken or if the sensor is bad the DDEC 11 can be a real pain we have Vans DDEC ii spooling up check the hose and the BAR rating on the sensor the sensor is not exspensive and 1 does go bad over time some just jump the sensor and forget about it I don't like to do that myself
Quote from: luvrbus on April 19, 2021, 02:41:44 PM
Quote from: niles500 on April 19, 2021, 02:19:10 PM
Clifford, could the fuel modulator on My DDEC2 be the cause of the turbo not spooling and the coach not moving when starting from a full stop at 6 degree plus grades? Tac just pegs at 1000 rpm
[/quote
DDEC don't use the modulator they have a boost sensor if the 1/4 inch hose has cracks or broken or if the sensor is bad the DDEC 11 can be a real pain we have Vans DDEC ii spooling up check the hose and the BAR rating on the sensor the sensor is not exspensive and 1 does go bad over time some just jump the sensor and forget about it I don't like to do that myself
On mine the hose was ok but still no power off idle. I had the same issue, 1000 rpm and no go. It would be blowing a hint of black smoke so that's just all the air it got. Replaced air and fuel filters to no avail.
Once it hit 1600 rpm it would start boosting and take off. The boost would peak around 2000-2100 rpm at about 22 psi. IIRC the gauge only went to 25 so it would be almost pegged.
I agree rigging sensors sucks although blowing smoke for a few seconds might get you over the hump. Maybe make a "knight rider" style boost button on the dash LOL.
It's worse on the higher HP models. I had a 1989 Setra S-215 with , I think, a 430 or 450 HP 8V92 and it did better off idle than the 500HP one. The 500HP has a huge turbo that doesn't make any boost off idle.
Thanks for the replies, I did replace the sensor but I'll check the hose for cracks or leaks
Check the hose to the bypass on the blower to,not knowing the mileage the bypass valve may need cleaning or replaced they stick and then depend on the turbo for all the air just the opposite of the way they were design to work
My truck has the Caterpillar 3406B 400hp mechanically controlled with Allison HT740 mechanically controlled. I picked the HT740 since the 4000 series 6 speed would have been twice the money and then have electronics. With my 11R-24.5 rubber (476rpm) and 3.55 rear axle ratio, I have a comfortable cruising rpm of 1690 @ 60mph, 1830 @ 65mph, 1971 @ 70 mph, 2112 @ 75, 2253 @ 80. Considering my normal cruise is 60-65, I'm right in the correct rpm range. Good Luck, TomC