BCM Community

In the topic "Time for an impact gun"(http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3503.0) a discussion started on using never-seize on lug nuts. I thought that it would be worthwhile to drag that out into a new topic so everyone could benefit. I subscribe to Fleet Owner Magazine and find that many of the topics apply to busses also. Back in Oct. 06 they had an article on just this subject. I hope this helps.

Here is the article, and the link to it appears below:

FleetOwner

Debunking a myth

BY KEVIN ROHLWING e-mail: kevinrohlwing@comcast.net

Oct 1, 2006 12:00 PM


From time to time, I'm going to use this space to dispel a myth about the truck tire and wheel industry. It will usually be a practice or procedure that "everyone does," in spite of the fact that very few actually understand the reason or the effect. The bottom line of the myth can range from an unnecessary expense to a matter of life and death. In the case of anti-seize compounds, both of those criteria are met.
The age-old practice of using anti-seize compounds as wheel system lubricants has never been approved or endorsed by a wheel, hub or fastener manufacturer. It hails back to the day of stud-piloted or Budd wheel systems when the inner and outer cap nuts were constantly "freezing" together during the removal process. Someone figured out that by coating the threads with high temperature anti-seize compounds the fasteners would come apart. The inherent rust inhibiting properties appeared to be an added bonus.
But nobody asked the question: "Why do inner and outer cap nuts freeze together in the first place?" The answers are typically things like worn or damaged threads, excessive corrosion or uneven torque between the fasteners. The use of anti-seize compounds on stud-piloted wheels keeps bad fasteners in service longer. When they freeze together, it's usually a sign that the threads are either worn or about to wear out. Anti-seize makes sure they come apart so they're put back on the vehicle. Brilliant.
If that isn't enough, stud-piloted wheel systems require a dry torque, so the use of a lubricant like anti-seize will result in more pounds of clamping force per foot-pound of torque. Among the results are accelerated rates of stud fatigue and ball seat wear. So anti-seize decreases the service life of both the stud and the wheel.
Since the people who use anti-seize are creatures of habit, many of them adapted it to the newer hub-piloted wheels for the same reasons. While they could be considered correct from the lubrication standpoint, the torque setting for hub-piloted wheels is oiled.
Once again, none of the wheel, hub, or fastener manufacturers even mentions anti-seize, and all of them agree the only acceptable lubricant is 30-weight oil, with 2-3 drops applied to the threads on the end of the studs and 2-3 drops between the flange and the nut body.
Substituting the 2-3 drops of 30-weight oil with a couple globs of anti-seize is going to reduce the amount of clamping force per foot-pound of torque. When any variation of the word "reduction" is used in association with the key component of wheel retention, everyone owning or operating a truck should pay special attention. Anti-seize on hub-piloted fasteners leads to wheel-offs and the evidence remains on the wheel end in question following the accident. It's a slam-dunk for the plaintiff's attorney.
Take a walk through your maintenance shop and look for cans of anti-seize. They represent an unnecessary expense no matter what the tire guy says. Then take a walk around your yard and look for evidence of metallic (usually silver or copper) residue around the studs and nuts. If you can see it, so can the lawyer. Whoever is responsible for installing your wheels must understand the anti-seize myth is costing them money and exposing everyone to unnecessary risk.

Link:
http://fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_debunking_myth/index.html

Wow!!! Barn Owl, thanks for screaming "wake up and smell the lawsuits" for me! Wow again, whew guess what I've been using on wheel studs for yrs! I got started doing it yrs. ago when an old man I learned tons of wrenching secrets from told me. "Take it from an old man, use anti seize on any and all big truck wheels and you won't have the problems with rusted/frozen lugs/studs, or striped or broken studs!" So I've been doing it his way for yrs! Not any more! Wow thanks again for opening my eyes again Barn Owl! BK  ;D

I agree with the article up to a point. That point is the reason for rusting and seizing threads. I think the main reason for this is going many years between wheel removal and operating or storing in very wet conditions. The only thread problems I've ever had were under these conditions.

Of course if you force a nut back onto a damaged thread it will be very hard to remove and proper torquing will not be possible, but almost everyone should know better than to do this.

I use anti-seize between wheels and between wheel and drum to keep down the rust. I also use a very small amount on stud threads, the op words here are "very small amount". So far I've never had a nut loosen much or come off. Maybe I've been lucky.

Not many things are as financially dangerous as a lawyer needing to make a boat payment.

But, is there any evidence of there ever having been a lawsuit against a company or individual specifically for using lubricants on the threads of wheel studs?

Or any evidence, other than theory, that it causes wheels to come off.  I doubt it.  Using never sieze is common practice in higher corrosion areas, like the Northeast.  Regarless of what the article states, rust does cause lugs nuts to sieze up.

Ross

http://www.wheel-check.com/wheelacc.html

"ODI says, approximately 1,000 accidents annually result from wheels falling off commercial vehicles. Left-side wheels are more likely to hit another vehicle and generate an accident report than right-side wheels, which often run off the road without causing notable damage. In some instances, however, loose right- side wheels seriously injure or kill pedestrians, sparking multi-million-dollar lawsuits against motor carriers."

I would be afraid that a good investigation could reveal the use of never-seize contributed to the wheel coming loose. A good lawyer would make the case that faulty or IMPROPER (this case)maintenance practices caused an accident. Also a good lawyer/prosecutor and his team of "expert witnesses" could make a good enough case that you might loose more than a wheel. Money & freedom come to mind.

For example:
http://www.kobtv.com/index.cfm?viewer=storyviewer&id=4719&cat=HOME

http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/AppellateCourt/2001/5thDistrict/June/Html/5990494.htm  Second paragraph.

These folks my win the appeal because the evidence was spoiled or discarded, but I would still be worried.

I agree that this is one person's opinion without any bio to give us his background knowledge and experience. Look at his statement: 

quote "Substituting the 2-3 drops of 30-weight oil with a couple globs of anti-seize is going to reduce the amount of clamping force per foot-pound of torque." unquote

I have not heard of antiseize being used to reduce torque (although it does). That is not the reason it is used,  and compared to using oil, does it affect torque more, less or the same. To make the statement that this author does, I would expect a reference to the torque reduction numbers for both products.

In addition, lubricating the threads will increase the clamping force, not reduce it, which he says himself in a previous paragraph

quote "...if that isn't enough, stud-piloted wheel systems require a dry torque, so the use of a lubricant like anti-seize will result in more pounds of clamping force per foot-pound of torque" unquote.

To win in court beyond a reaonable doubt thier lawer would have to prove that using never sieze caused the wheel to come off.  If you come up with 100 people that say it's bad, I can come up with 100 that say it's good.  Basically, unless there is a legal president or a DOT case study, anything regarding never sieze causing wheels to come off would be purely opinion.

He also refers to "globs" of never sieze.  It shouldn't be used in globs.  If you apply some to the stud, then wipe off as much as you can, you will have enough.  Just enough to prevent corrosion.

Ross

I worked as a mechanic in the trucking industry for 20 years, and we always put never sieze on the innner and outer nuts on stud piloted rims. I never heard of any of our wheels coming off. Hub piloted on the other hand we only put a couple of drops of oil on the flange of the nut no never sieze, there was no need for it, and it would affect the torque applied to the nut. The biggest issue with hub piloted rims is retorqueing the nuts after a few hundred miles, that is why wheels were coming off the hub.

"To win in court beyond a reaonable doubt thier lawer would have to prove that using never sieze caused the wheel to come off.  If you come up with 100 people that say it's bad, I can come up with 100 that say it's good.  Basically, unless there is a legal president or a DOT case study, anything regarding never sieze causing wheels to come off would be purely opinion."

I don't believe you could come up with 100 engineers and wheel fastener manufacturers that would advocate the use of never-seize. If you could, never-seize would be called for by every maintenance manual regarding wheel installations and this discussion wouldn't be happening.

I have been an expert witness in a wrongful death lawsuit and a semi-truck accident and trust me it doesn't take much for you to lose, ESPECIALLY when proper maintenance practices haven't been followed. The guy that lost the lawsuit is still working odd jobs for cash, because he still owes the family a couple million for killing their child. He can't do much until the debt is paid.

When you take it upon yourself to try to "out think" the engineers and manufacturers, then you are playing with fire. The law of averages is on your side though. Will you loose a wheel and cause death or injury?? probably not, but I personally wouldn't risk it.

Just to clear up one legal misconception.  In a civil trial the jury (or judge, not all civil trials have a jury) is charged with coming to a verdict based on a "Preponderance of Evidence" as opposed to criminal trials that require a verdict be "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt".

QuotePreponderance of evidence: Greater weight of evidence, or evidence that is more credible and convincing. Refers to the amount of proof required to win a civil case. It is that degree of proof that is more probable than not. It is a lower standard than that required in criminal a case.

This is how so many nonsense lawsuits are won and civil trial lawyers get rich.  Civil trial juries are very unpredictable and often award outrageous amounts in the most rediculous cases.

While I tend to agree that never seize has been used widely in the trucking industry, I sure would hate to be at the defendant table in a civil trial and have the plaintiff's attorney bringing the issue in front of the unpredictable, non-expert jury whose emotions are being swayed by the injured party's suffering or their survivors.

You can go here= http://www.alcoa.com/alcoawheels/catalog/pdf/HDSM022004_en.pdf
they recommend lube, unless its all new hardware.
They even list different torque's for lube or non lube

WOW after a lifetime in the trucking industry I whole heartedly believe that if you loose your wheels, the is a lot more wrong than a lube situation! I think this topic came up when we were discussing removing wheels by hand in an emergency situation. Early in my career, Superman and I tried to change a flat roadside on an old KW. With a flagpole for a cheater pipe, we could not break loose one lug nut, and they were not "frozen", just normally tight. I pull the head bolts on a 855 cummins 280 ft lbs with a 6 foot long 3/4 drive torque wrench and that is pretty damn tight. On our thread we were discussing removing wheels for service work at home or on the road in an emergency by hand. I like boat trailer wheel bearing grease, (It will stay in a year on a Seattle truck in the rain). I suggested a trip to the tire shop to get them broke loose, reinstall by hand, torque to 250 lbs by hand with boat trailer wheel bearing grease, a retorque at a couple hundred miles and visual walkaround inspection per DOT every time you stop the unit. For those of you who think 250 foot lbs is light, My torque wrench is available for your use, and you will be tired by the time you get 10 inner and outers that tight. However you will be able to use the same wrench to take them off in an emergency if you have the energy and time. I have several years ago traded Superman for Mr. Ingersol Rand and we are very happy togather! The grease will stay as I know beyond a doubt that I only replace a percentage of the stripped studs on my fleet that I used to. I firmly believe in a walk around inspection every time I stop a truck or a bus and I try to look at every lug nut every time. If you don't do your walk around inspections every stop, (Its your responsibility), where are you going to be when they all go flat?

Wheels fall off for all kinds of reasons, the only one I ever lost was a broken trailer wheel, the disc wheel itself broke around the hub. Luckily, we were empty.

I think the real myth is that just because it gets publiished in a trade magazine it is gospel! These things go on for years because nobody bothers to check it out since it was written by "experts".

"ODI says, approximately 1,000 accidents annually result from wheels falling off commercial vehicles. Left-side wheels are more likely to hit another vehicle and generate an accident report than right-side wheels, which often run off the road without causing notable damage. In some instances, however, loose right- side wheels seriously injure or kill pedestrians, sparking multi-million-dollar lawsuits against motor carriers."

What does this have to do with using anti-seize??

When i torque my lug nuts with the 12:1 multiplier  i use a 19" torque wrench set at 40 lbs......40x12=480 lbs.  I can tighten lug nuts all day with one hand and not be tired, plus i know to within a lb. or two what they are torqued to!!!!

I have been in the transportation industry for almost my entire career. Things are different for operators like BK. He has a lot to worry about. EPA, DOT, OSHA, etc. Any one of these government agencies can end your life and your business as you know it if they wanted to. An operator doesn't want anymore exposure than necessary. If one of BK's buses had an accident, all three of those agencies and others would be there on the scene of the accident and in his shop going over every inch, digging through every record...blah, blah, blah. It might not have been a wheel that came off, but a lawyer will look at his shop practices and use any thing that could be considered "not good practice" to build his negligence case against him. We can all probably run anti-seize for a 100 yrs without a problem, but Happycampersrus and Hightechredneck have it right, a trial lawyer would eat you alive. To many of you are balking at the FleetOwners article. Everyone has their opinions, but those at FleetOwner are in the industry, and probably collectively know more about it than all of us put together....FWIW

There have been many salient points made here but let us be realistic. IF you own a bus or large truck AND a wheel comes off AND somebody or something is injured or damaged AND your insurance company does not settle, YOU ARE GOING TO BE SUED.

If your attorney cannot convince the judge/jury that the wheel coming off was entirely beyond your control and no amount of inspection and/or maintenance would have revealed or fixed the problem, YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO LOSE. Whether you use Never Seize, 30wt oil, goose grease, hair slickum, possum fat, air wrenches, damsels in distress, torque multipliers, flag poles, or magnetic poles will only be small cogs in the wheel of your down hill run to conviction.

The crux of the matter is maintenance and inspection. As pointed out in an earlier post, do you regularly inspect your running gear? Do a walk around EVERYTIME you stop? For those of us that use simulators, have you removed yours lately to see what's going on behind them? When was the last time you checked the tire pressure ... with an ACCURATE gauge? Have you jacked the bus up and had all the bushings, tie rod ends, pitman arm, kingpins and other steering /suspension components checked by someone who you KNOW knows what he is doing?  I was appalled some years ago to find someone I respected as a mechanic checking wear on Hendrickson suspension by driving the tractor in a tight circle. He said "Bushings are good! She's only tracking about 4 inches out of line...." When we jacked the tractor up, we could shove a ¾" punch between the trunion and walking beam. Do you know enough about your particular vehicle to judge whether or not your mechanic knows what he is doing? If not, this board is a good place to START learning. Get whatever manuals & books you can find on your equipment & read them. We don't all have to be master mechanics, but we should be able to follow the conversation. If you don't KNOW, find someone who does! If you are not comfortable with what they say, find someone else. No amount of excuses will ever make up for your or someone else's injury or death.

A lot of our buses have no required inspections because of our "camper" status. It is up to us to see that they are safe. As soon as we take a particular course of action to avoid a lawsuit after a caused accident, we have already lost that battle.

INSPECTION    MAINTAINENCE      SAFETY

MY life is in YOUR hands!

Gus,

"ODI says, approximately 1,000 accidents annually result from wheels falling off commercial vehicles. Left-side wheels are more likely to hit another vehicle and generate an accident report than right-side wheels, which often run off the road without causing notable damage. In some instances, however, loose right- side wheels seriously injure or kill pedestrians, sparking multi-million-dollar lawsuits against motor carriers."

"What does this have to do with using anti-seize??"  A bunch.  ;D

Lets just look and see what some other "experts" say

http://www.alcoa.com/alcoawheels/catalog/pdf/HDSM022004_en.pdf

If you will read the alcoa manual page 31. This is directly from a wheel manufacturer, NOT from the trade magazine.

Lubricants should not be applied to the cap nut seat or to the cap
nut-to-wheel contact surface. Oiled seats can lead to over-torquing which can stretch studs causing failure of studs. Failed studs can cause the wheel to disengage from the vehicle,causing injury or death.
Lubricants MUST be completely removed from the cap nut seats and contact
surfaces if applied accidentally.

Then see page 35
"Do NOT lubricate the face of the hub, wheel face or brake drum.

Then only lube to be used is a LIGHT oiling of SAE 30wt oil on the lug threads.

"I think the real myth is that just because it gets publiished in a trade magazine it is gospel! These things go on for years because nobody bothers to check it out since it was written by "experts"."

All of these warnings and Instructions are from Alcoa and other manufacturers. There not myths and lurban legends. The warnings come from extensive engineering and testing.

Go by the service manuals, Do your inpections, Do your preventive maintenance the correct way and on time. If you do these coupled with GOOD information you will not have very many problems.

Is Antisieze a lubricant?

http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/b_lubricants/specialty_lubricants/Permatex_Anti-Seize_Lubricant_a.htm

Well, we all have our opinions I guess, but I believe in referencing a known authority. If it concerns electricity, refer to NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code.  If it concerns propane installations, refer to the applicable NFPA code.  I don't know who publishes the standard for lug nuts, but obviously, that will be the best reference, right?  In the military, we of course had the military publications, which specified torque values on aircraft, and dictated that we torque everything twice.  It also told us to return the setting to zero on the wrench during storage between jobs, and to return the wrench to the proper technicians for recalibration not only periodically, but anytime it was dropped.  FWIW       

Interesting discussion.  I wouldn't argue for or against lubricants on studs.  I would be interested in how many wheels came off buses...say last year?   Or whatever the period of time the described "thousands" of wheels came off. Causation is the key.  I'm sure this has been pretty will hashed around. 
Regarding liability, my guess would be that no matter what the reason, if your wheel comes off, you are responsible.  Period.  Neverseize or otherwise.  They wouldn't have to prove why it came off...the thing speaks for itself.    You may be able to share exposure if you just left a tire shop...and they had just R&R'd the lost wheel. 
The science doesn't appear to be in yet.  Neverseize is a lubricant. 
Reckon we need one of Ben Edge's polls about now...How many use neverseize or lube on the studs...how many wheels have come off buses....how many deaths may be attributed to such wheel loss.....and does wheel loss change the sound of the...sorry. 
May I posit that wheels do indeedy come off all the time.  Lubed or otherwise.  But they are falling off for reasons such as they are not rechecked, left loose, tire guys rely on air wrench to return wheels and zap'em on to 800 lbs, or 200 lbs.   Depends on whether they used the old worn out wrench or the new unit.  Some truckers are amazingly sloppy with their maint.   The get confused. 
I check my lugs every time I stop for fuel, or to make a "pit stop."
I have Alcoas and high-hats.  So the lugs are available.  If I ever found one loose, it would scare the poop out of me.  However, I'm one of the NeverSeize users...not gobs...just light smear on the stud threads.  None on the flange of my hub piloted lugnuts.  I torque them per Alcoa's specs for lube.   I believe that Alcoa must specify a lubricant so that they can appear to control the application of data.
Obviously there is considerable tolerance for lubricants, or lack thereof.  Alcoa offers two methods to torque wheels.  With lube and without. 
I also believe that if NeverSeize could be identified as an agent that could cause wheels to fall off, it would be under scrutiny and regulated by DOT. 
No matter how much lube you put on the wheel attachment hardware, if the wheels are tightened and torqued correctly, and rechecked per the manual, it's highly unlikely that those wheels will come off. 
Torquing dry lugs onto dry studs/wheels can result in low torque and possible loss of wheel.
Let's see the numbers.  Who is losing wheels and why.  I'll bet the research is all in. 
Maybe we could get a DOT report IDing causation of wheel loss.
Happy bussing!  JR   
   

"Obviously there is considerable tolerance for lubricants, or lack thereof.  Alcoa offers two methods to torque wheels.  With lube and without." 

Right, but they don't recommend never-seize, anti-seize, or grease. only recommends SAE 30wt oil. Wonder why  ???

"I also believe that if NeverSeize could be identified as an agent that could cause wheels to fall off, it would be under scrutiny and regulated by DOT."

It already is under scrutiny by both Alcoa and Accuride(steel wheel manufacturer). Both manufacturers have several warnings in their manuals about how much lube and were to place it.

"Torquing dry lugs onto dry studs/wheels can result in low torque and possible loss of wheel. "

UHH  ??? That's one way Alcoa & Accuride WANTS you to torque the lugs.

Page 32 Alcoa manual.
It is recommended that stud threads on stud located mounting systems be lubricated with SAE 30W oil and torqued between 350 and 400 foot-pounds. If threads are not lubricated, torque to between 450 and 500 foot-pounds.

Would you use, say 30wt hydraulic oil in your Detroit engine because "YOU" (not Detroit) thought it lubricated better?? Of course not, you follow the manufacturers recommendations of CF-2.

So why go against the manufacturer and slap on never-seize?

I will agree that a SMALL amount just on the threads could be a good thing for corrosion control, but there are folks using it other places during a wheel installation and that can be a real problem.

On of the major concerns I have is an OVER torqued wheel will crack and loose the wheel.

"I will agree that a SMALL amount just on the threads could be a good thing for corrosion control, but there are folks using it other places during a wheel installation and that can be a real problem"

Where else could you use it?

Jim,

Some folks have used anti-seize or lube on the beveled part of the lug nut (stud located). That will cause an over torque of the lug causing the rim to crack and possibly seperate, as in the pic I provided.

Some folks have even used a thin coat between the hub and rim and also between dual rims to try to prevent corrosion. That can and will cause an under torque situation as the grease or anti-seize is forced out the wheels loosen up. Then a loose or floppy wheel causes cracks, wollowing of the holes, and possibly separating.

The Alcoa and Accuride manuals have pictures that show some results of over & under torque. 

I have done alot of wheel and brake maintenance in my career as a heavy equipment mechanic and I have seen plenty of cracked wheels that make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I have even seen the inside dual crack that wouldn't be detected on a walk around inspection.

FWIW, the hub piloted nuts are a better system and they are more forgiving than the ball seat nuts on over torquing. The flange nut won't put as much stress on the rim as the ball seat nuts do. The ball seat nut can crack the rim if "buried" into the rim by over torquing the nut.

Ok 1st off I've been Trucking, Towing, or Busing for 20+ yrs! I've never ever even come close to loosing a wheelin all those yrs, and I used anti-seize the whole time! Opps, OK there was one time the truck (tractor & trailer) I was towing lost the left rear drive duals! But theres more to the story, first off I was told by the Freightliner dealer that called it in that it was an engine problem. Then while pulling the driveshaft the driver said I don't really think it was the engine I think the transmission locked up! Well ok, I finished pulling the driveshaft, & hooking up & started down the highway. Well it just kept trying to wander every where and "didn't feel right", so I pulled over did a walk around checking everything the hook-up, wheels, tires, 5th wheel, axle sliders, you name I checked it! Then came the phone call telling me to hurry up I was 3 calls behind and 1 of them was a 200 mile tow (from the scale house!). So away we went and again it just would not "tow right" so I proceeded using the shoulder and only running 20-25 mph and praying I could make it the last 10 miles after stopping at the scales & letting the driver there know I was gonna be a while! ( I had to go through anyway!) But as luck would have it 4 miles from the dealership, I saw those duals come off and pass me then go off down in he median. Well now what do I do? Well I called our shop and had 'em send out a tractor for the trailer, then I eased up the exit ramp and dropped the trailer on some heavy timbers. Then pulled the tractor over to the shoulder on the over pass, and dropped it. Then backed back down the ramp, rolled the duals out of the median, across I-24 and  behind the tow truck and picked them up with the boom. Then drove back up the ramp, and backed up to the tractor, hooked it up on the under reach, about the time I finished hooking up our tractor showed up for the trailer. We hooked him up and away we went! Ok so I have lost a wheel, but the lugs didn't fail!!! Anti-seize would not have helped or hurt in this case! The problem was the driver had a set of wheel bearings go down in FL and kept driving up I-75, & I-24 until the axle snapped (his tranny lock up!), and then I came along misinformed, and towed the whole unit instead of dropping the trailer & towing the tractor from the rear as it should have been in the 1st place!

Ok with all that said I've never lost even as much as a lugnut using anti-seize in over 20 yrs of use! But in this day and age of lawyers waiting for any and every accident involving a commercial vehicle, to convince the "victims" they are owed $$$$$$$$$.$$ because the commercial vehicle is at fault. There are too many stupid frivolous lawsuits these days for ME to personally take a chance anymore! I knock on my hard head I've fortunate so far, but this fat boy ain't push'n his luck no more!  FWIW BK  ;D

Clarification is in order.  I stated that I check my wheel lugs at every it stop...what I do is a "walkaround" and feel and look at the studs.
My lugnuts turn freely when loosened.  So they are easy to check for looseness.  I don't get out the torque wrench and attempt to torque the lugs at every stop. 
One other tidbit, i am not recommending that anyone attach a wheel in any manner other than the methods recommended by the manufacturere of said wheel.   
I do however, question the rationale of many articles and such that seem authored by "experts."   Show me the research.   
I'm still interested in whose wheels are falling off buses. 
Cheers, JR

JR & BK

Neither I nor any of my family or associates have ever had a wheel come off either in all our combined years in the transportation industry, but we were maintainance  crazy. My cousin used to jack the front of his Autocar up by the frame when not in use to keep the weight off the springs. I also would be interested in how many wheels have come off. How about a poll? How many wheels do we KNOW have come off? How many said wheels do we KNOW came off because of some substance that was used on the lugs or mating surfaces?

BK

As I said before, if you lose a wheel & someone gets hurt, you know it's a lawsuit anyway and if you can't prove it absolutely was no way it was your fault  and that you could not have foreseen the event you are going to lose. Remember the hot Mcdonalds coffee suit...and the idiot that cut his fingers off using his Sears lawn mower to trim his hedges? They both won! We don't have a chance in court no matter what we use on wheels! We're guilty! Get used to it! And, if we are really not guilty, we are probably guilty of something they didn't catch us at! ;D ;D So this is just payback! ;D ;D

Matter of fact, I thought I saw our pics at the post office the other day.........
Old pic though, I had more hair back then.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Jjr, Where else to use? I use it on all of my brake jobs, Where the drum slides on the hub, the bolts that hold on the drum. Also where the wheel slides over the hub. Any of these places that rust will make something hard to remove.  Tom Y   

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/1999/truckbus/initiatives.htm

September 1992 Special Investigation:

Wheel Separation in Medium and Heavy Trucks

· Wheel separation accidents constitute about 0.3 percent of all truck accidents; the leading causes of wheel separations from medium to heavy trucks are improper tightening of wheel fasteners and bearing failure, both the result of inadequate maintenance.

· Federal and State oversight of wheel inspections and recalls appeared to be adequate; however, most Federal and State reporting forms do not differentiate between tire and wheel failures.

· Trucking industry lacked uniform model guidelines for maintenance and inspection of all types of medium to heavy trucks, and the industry did not have a uniform recommended practice that specifies how often wheel bearings should be inspected.

· Undertightening of wheel fasteners usually resulted from the failure to follow recommended wheel maintenance practices; overtightening more easily resulted from an air impact wrench instead of a torque wrench.

Recommendations: The Safety Board issued six recommendations to the following recipients: American Trucking Associations, National Wheel and Rim Association, Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Association, Truck Trailer Manufacturers, and Society of Automotive Engineers (H-92-98 through -101); Federal Highway Administration (H-92-102); and Department of Transportation (H-92-103).

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1992/sir9204.htm

· Inadequate inspection guidelines, including frequency and procedures for the proper inspection of wheel fasteners and lubrication of bearings.
· Lack of uniform maintenance guidelines among manufacturers.
· Failure by carriers and mechanics to adhere to recommended maintenance guidelines published by wheel manufacturers.  ;D

These are from the National Transportation Safety Board not some magazine.
That was a quick search and the numbers have probably changed since then and I don't want to waste a whole sunny saturday just to prove that heavy equipment can loose wheels due to poor or flawed (your own way)maintenance practices. Even though it's a small percentage it does happen.

Us as bus owners mostly do are own maintenance and inspections so this will probably never happen to us, but it can happen.

Happy I always appreciate anybody that posts and can verify there postings. I dont pay much attention to an article in such and such a publication. Just becuse it is in there. My best example would be the prestigious Wall Street Journal. Who run articles by financial experts!!! Some of whom are going to have trouble coming up with the cash for there next bottle of wine!
Anyway thanks!!

quote "· Wheel separation accidents constitute about 0.3 percent of all truck accidents; the leading causes of wheel separations from medium to heavy trucks are improper tightening of wheel fasteners and bearing failure, both the result of inadequate maintenance." unquote

Doesn't that paragraph get right to the problem. Proper maintenance and proper torque will eliminate almost all wheel failures.  Whether the retaining nuts are put on dry or lubricated, the important thing is the proper torque.  A walk around to check tires, wheels and wheel bearings at every stop is good advice.

What would FleetOwner have to gain by just making crap up? How long do you think FleetOwner would keep publishing if they spread disinformation and loose their credibility? They would loose their advertising dollars and then their jobs. I'm not saying everything that is printed is gospel or perfect, that's why there are corrections in almost all publications. But the pooh, poohing going on here is surprising even to me. Just the fact that it could lead to over tightening and wheel damage would be enough to make me stop. Seems that no matter how much evidence Happycampersrus throws up there will change some minds. I say we get the author of that article to weigh in on this one. I will shoot him the link in his email and ask for a response.

Oh, and guess what I found. Yesterday I was rotating the wheels on the car I bought for my daughter, and on the wheel bolts (Yes, bolts not nuts. Seems to be a quirky European thing; this is a Volvo, I've had a VW with them also) there was anti-seize. I just put them back in and torqued them to the factory setting. Drove to D.C. and back (500 mile round trip) and didn't loose a wheel. I'm really not going to loose sleep over this one.

Magazines are pretty much alike, they publish some good stuff and some real garbage.

A while back I read an article about motor home tires supposedly written by a self proclaimed "expert" who had been a tire dealer for many years. The article was so full of major mistakes that it was painful. So I wrote the editor and pointed them out to him.

The editor agreed about the mistakes but still defended the article. What else could he do, he published it without checking the facts?  Well, he could have admitted that he had made a mistake but editors don't do a lot of that.

I repeat, just because it appears in a trade magazine doesn't make it so. A little research and a little common sense go a long way.

I agree, and for me personally, Happpycampersrus has dug up enough for me to believe that never-seize should not be used on the lug nuts. At UPS we use a lot of never-seize, but they do not use it to mount the wheels. If they thought it was beneficial they would include it in their PMI's and methods. I think this has become more of an emotional issue than one based on logic. For so many it has made them feel good to put never-seize on lug nuts it's hard to stop that feel good practice. Why not use the same logic to debunk the use of CF-2 oil?  We all accept that CF-2 40wt is the only oil you should run in your two stroke DD. Why? The manufactures, publications, web sites, etc. all say so. I have now seen enough manufactures, publications, and web sites to support the fact that it is not a good practice to use never-seize on lug nuts. I was in the other camp until I read that article, then I switched. Now after reading Alcoa's procedures, I feel that I did the right thing. I realize that probably no one on this board will ever have a wheel fall off solely because of the use of never-seize, that is not the point; it's the education gained, and the ability to share, and apply, what we learn. BTW..... I like all busnuts, whether they use anti-seize or not.

 Below is my email to Kevin and his reply:


****************************************************************************
Kevin,

Your article was referenced to on a Bus Conversion bulletin board. It has sparked a little bit of controversy. I would like to invite you to share your credentials and expertise with us. If you read the threads you will see the purpose behind my invitation.

Link:

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3536.0

Thank You,

Laryn Christley
(Barn Owl)

*****************************************************************************

Laryn,

This subject always sparks some controversy as it is a common practice in the field. Yet it is not considered acceptable by ANY wheel, hub or fastener manufacturer. In fact, the only lubricant that you will ever seen mentioned is 30-weight oil.

As for my credentials, I have been in the truck tire service business for the past 25 years, starting as a technician in my family's tire dealership. For the past 11 years, I have worked for the Tire Industry Association and currently serve as the Senior Vice President of Training. I developed a training and certification program for truck tire technicians that has currently trained and/or certified more than 25,000 people since 1997. I am an active member of the Technology and Maintenance Council of the American Trucking Associations and have chaired several Task Forces for that organization. I was also part of the Task Force that updated the TMC User's Guide to Wheels and Rims, which is recognized as the industry standard for heavy duty truck wheel and rim maintenance. I have spoken at numerous industry conferences throughout North America on a variety of subjects associated with truck tires and wheels.

I also do some expert witness testimony on the side and have witnessed first-hand how a plaintiff's attorney uses the published guidelines against a defendant. As I stated earlier, none of the current rim manuals or industry publications even mention anti-seize compounds and I personally know the top engineers with Alcoa, Accuride, Hayes-Lemmerz, ConMet, and other manufacturers of wheels, hubs and fasteners. All would agree that the use of anti-seize compounds alters the torque and clamping force relationship in a negative manner. And most can point to specific incidents of "wheel-offs" where the use of such compounds was a contributing factor.

Unfortunately, the people with 20+ years of experience who have never experienced a wheel-off even though they use anti-seize compounds can only attribute their success to luck. Should they ever have an accident, the evidence will be all over the wheel end in question and it will be used against them.

Feel free to share this with others since my intention was to educate the Fleet Owner readers on the potential consequences of using these compounds.

Regards,

Kevin Rohlwing

*****************************************************************************

Fellow Busnuts,

Whether you have agreed or not, I want to thank everyone who has participated in this discussion. I have the utmost respect for all of the posters and consider you all friends. I learn something new everyday here and I know I have only started bus kindergarten. I'm not writing this to be the end of this discussion, please keep posting if you would like to add to it.

Laryn

     I agree with gus  - - - - The article about trucking industry wheels
     is interesting, but,  we do not put on the kind of miles that trucks do.
     Our main problem is rust and a lot of years between tire changes.
     I do not speak from reading and research,  I can relate to 10 years
     of experiance and use of a anti-seize compound.
     Like Gus stated,  What does anti-sieze compound have to do with it?
                                 Good luck,   Merle.

The more letters a person has after his name the less I am impressed or the number of years experience. I am especially skeptical of engineers since engineers have caused mechanics so much misery over the years. I'm supposedly an engineer myself according to the paperwork but I'm not impressed with that either. Kevin may know what he is talking about and he may not. I'm waiting to see some proof.

Throughout all this discussion there has not been one factually supported case of a wheel coming off solely because anti-seize was used. Just because a wheel comes off and anti-seize happened to be used does not mean that anti-seize was the cause.

This whole thing reminds me of when Lycoming said years ago that the use of auto fuel in their aircraft engines would cause all kinds of airplanes falling out of the sky. When pinned down they could not come up with one supported case of that happening. Again, they told about all kinds of aircraft accidents when using auto fuel but every single one was caused by something else and just happened to be using auto fuel at the time. Today many many small aircraft use auto fuel, mine included, and I still haven't heard of a failure caused by auto fuel.

I'm not saying that these guys are wrong, I'm just saying, "show me the proof".

MCI  MC7 Service manual states where corrosion or galling is a problem, "a light application of a lubricant can be applied to the first three threads of a stud and the first three threads of inner cap nut. Care should be taken to keep all lubricant from the ball seat of stud hole or ball faces of cap nuts."

"Show me some proof"

It's this simple

If you add lubricant anywere other than the place specified, you can over torque the wheel and cause a catastrophic failure of the rim or fasteners.

The proof is in the NTSB reports I referenced and they cited this. The proof is in the wheel manufacturer manuals and they cited this. 

Do you not believe the wheel manufacturer has tested the idea of Anti-seize and found it to cause over torquing damage??


Kevin Rohlwing wrote

"I also do some expert witness testimony on the side and have witnessed first-hand how a plaintiff's attorney uses the published guidelines against a defendant."

I have first-hand knowledge of this also. That is exactly what is going to happen at a trial when Anti-seize is found on the wheel.

 We should send a letter to Permatex, see what thier opinion is!

Since NTSB and all other experts quoted in this thread state that the problem of using anti seize is incorect torque, I would expect them to do some tests and tell everyone what is the correct torque when using anti seize.  They have gone to the trouble of doing tests with 30 weight oil (engine oil, straight mineral oil or can you now use 15-40?) so why not do the same tests with antiseize since it appears to be used by so many trucking companies.

The quote from MCI to oil the threads to prevent galling is interesting, but oil is very poor for this application, compared to anti seize, over long periods of time.

More wheels and studs have been ruined on both cars and trucks by idiots with impact wrenches than by any kind of lubrication on the threads.  Has anyone on this board ever bought a used vehicle that didn't have some stretched studs?

"Since NTSB and all other experts quoted in this thread state that the problem of using anti seize is incorect torque, I would expect them to do some tests and tell everyone what is the correct torque when using anti seize.  They have gone to the trouble of doing tests with 30 weight oil (engine oil, straight mineral oil or can you now use 15-40?) so why not do the same tests with antiseize since it appears to be used by so many trucking companies."


Simply because 30wt oil is the only thing the manufacturer recommends using and that is the only product they want you to use.

The wheel manufacturer and the wheel fastener manufacturer evidently feels that anti-seize is not the PROPER product for their application, so they don't recommend using anti-seize.

IF the wheel manufacturer thought that anti-seize was a good idea:
(1) They would endorse it.
(2) They would list the proper torque for Anti-seize on lugs.
(3) Don't you think they would have their own Anti-seize type product to use on their wheels to make $$$ off of ??

Don't panic guys I have an email request in to Alcoa to get their opinion on this. I am waiting on a reply.

There are many things going on when you bolt a wheel on. Hub piloted mounting causes less stress in the rim. The ball seat or taper on stud piloted wheels induces more stress in the rim itself. That's why they changed to hub piloted.

For those that don't know, friction is what makes a bolted connection work. If there was no friction, the parts would freely slide around. The nut would turn, the rims would slide around on the hub, etc. Those putting lubricants on the mounting surfaces scare hell out of me! This lubrication allows the wheel to shift & that adds more stress to the studs. If corrosion is a problem, there should be a better solution (not easier, BETTER).

The use of 30 weight oil has been tested so that the results are known & predictable. The various anti-seize compounds have different additives in them which affect their lubricity. That makes publishing torque values for them impossible.

IF things were so simple & it didn't matter what you use, then why do the rim manufacturers post so many warnings?

Why do so many think 'proper torque' is important even tho they have no idea what 'proper torque' is, how the engineer arrived at the specified number, & how clamping force is affected by lubricants, wear, abused parts, etc.

I'm also amazed by the number of people who delight in engineer bashing (Although, I do know a few who would benefit from a good bashing  ;D ) when all they know is what they have seen & know damn little of the real reasons behind it.  (OOPS, didn't see that soap box, sorry.)

The real reason you don't see more wheels falling off is the fact that it is an abuse tolerant design. If you think your wheel hardware needs anti seize, I'm guessing that the hardware was abused last time & needs replacement. OR the environment is causing corrosion & the hardware should be replaced & proper anti corrosion measures taken. OR it has been too long since the wheels were removed & you need to deal with that issue.
NONE of the proper solutions to the problem should involve compromising the integrity of the stud - nut interface.

Be careful so you can spend more time enjoying your trip!

Kyle, Ma man.

I was just thinking about coming to get your input on this.  ;D  ;D

"The use of 30 weight oil has been tested so that the results are known & predictable. The various anti-seize compounds have different additives in them which affect their lubricity. That makes publishing torque values for them impossible."

AAH HAA!!

Thank you for that explaination as I knew what I wanted to say, I just didn't know how to put it so well.

"30 weight oil" is a real generic term and applies to many kinds of oil that have different lubricating qualities. Is just any kind of "30 weight oil" OK?

The different anti-seize compounds I have seen/ used had differing ingredients ranging from aluminum, graphite, molybdenum disulfide, copper, nickel, teflon, etc.

Yes, different 30 wt oils may varry in their lubricating properties (I'm guessing most of the real differences are in the detergent packages). But I'm sure they won't vary enough to be significant like the differences in antiseize components.

They don't call molybdenum disulfide an extreme pressure lubricant for nothing!

"I have first-hand knowledge of this also. That is exactly what is going to happen at a trial when Anti-seize is found on the wheel."

This proves nothing, he is saying it is going to happen?? This is not first-hand knowledge? Lawyers may be good but they aren't this good. I can bash lawyers too because my dad, father-in-law and son were/are lawyers.

I'm still looking forward to even one documented case of a wheel coming off because of anti-sieze.

Manufacturers are probably afraid to say that it can be used because some dope will use a whole handful on the theory is some is good a whole bunch is really good.

That bit about using 30wt oil was probably written in the '30s  or '40s when there was only one kind of 30wt!!  Today there are probably 50 different formulations of 30wt.

I have first-hand knowledge of this also. That is exactly what is going to happen at a trial when Anti-seize is found on the wheel.

"This proves nothing, he is saying it is going to happen?? This is not first-hand knowledge? Lawyers may be good but they aren't this good. I can bash lawyers too because my dad, father-in-law and son were/are lawyers."

Gus, Have you ever been a witness in a wrongful death lawsuit?? I have and it was not a pretty sight!

I have seen first hand were a fellow thought he knew it all.

To make a very long story short a fellow just like everyone else that thought he knew more than the engineers. One day he decided that he would repair his air brake system on his large tandem axle dump truck.

Naw, heck I'm smarter than anybody that designs air brake parts or any engineer that recommends a certain type DOT approved hose, so I'm gonna pop into lowes hardware and get me some tubing and fittings. After his repairs, he goes and gets a load of gravel. After coming out of the quarry, he heads to the job site and goes down a long grade to a stop light, but the light is red and he steps on the brakes. POP goes an air line and before the spring brakes slow him down he plows a minivan resulting in a death of a child and injury of the mother.

Fast forward abit to the civil trail and he was convicted because of poor maintenace practices (ring a bell?). NOT just because of the plastic water pipe for air brakes, but any thing they could find from lights that didn't work to worn steering parts.

He lost 2.5 million for his stunts. He is working odd jobs for cash, because he can't own or earn a damn thing until he pays the family.

It takes very little to loose everything you own and if you don't think a good lawyer will roast you over loosing a wheel, you are mistaken.

I've seen this. the lawyers are going to ask you just as they asked the guy with the dumptruck:
(1)do you perform your own maintenance?  (to put the blame on you)
(2)were did you get the idea to use anit-seize? (to put the blame on you)
(3) is that in ANY maintenance manual for installing wheels? (to help prove you were negligent)

A civil trial is a court of opinion, not so much on facts. If they believe you did the wrong thing during your maintenance procedures you will lose your case. Good luck.

"That bit about using 30wt oil was probably written in the '30s  or '40s when there was only one kind of 30wt!!  Today there are probably 50 different formulations of 30wt."

The manual that recommends this is from Febuary 2004

The lawsuit issue over using anti seize is a distraction from the facts.

The fact is that the manufacturer says dry or 30 weight oil only. (I'm no lubrication engineer, but I suggest the differences in 30 wt oil are relatively minor & involve how they age/ break down in certain environments.)

If you have ever properly designed a bolted joint like this, you know how much is going on & why there is such a high safety factor margin. Abusing that margin thru mis-information or ignorance is not the safest way down the road. The reason you won't find many reports citing anti-seize as the cause is because it will have been just one contributor in a chain of events. Has anyone else noticed the required mounting flange diameter spec in Alcoa's instructions? Do you suppose this is more nonsense from idiot engineers dated to the 30's?

If 3 strings should hold up a weight & there are 30 strings attached to it (some strings may have hidden damage & some weren't tied properly), how many strings can you safely cut?

If your lunch is under the weight?
If your hand is under it?
If your baby is under it?
If your life depends it?

If you ignore the manufacturers specs by using anti seize, how many strings are you cutting?
(Just because you don't know all that is going on doesn't make the potential for failure go away, even if it is percieved as a small potential.)

Is everyone really afraid of getting sued????  You guys should just hire out all maintenance and hire a professional driver because if you are in an accident and someone dies, it doesn't matter what they find...or don't find on your wheels, they will find something and try to make a case out of it.  If you do your own maintenance, that's probably all they will need.  Can you prove that the last time you had the wheels off they were installed to the proper torque with a calibrated torque wrench?  You guys that use torque wrenches...how many of you have any calibration papers at all, never mind anything recent? 

Really guys...If getting sued is such a concern, maybe doing something as "risky" as bussin' isn't for you.

Ross

"Is everyone really afraid of getting sued?"

Nope. My maintenance is done by an ASE certified heavy equipment mechanic that goes by the recommended maintenance practices listed in the service manuals.

"Can you prove that the last time you had the wheels off they were installed to the proper torque with a calibrated torque wrench?"

Yes.

I'm done here. Some believe it's ok to substitute their ideas for proper maintenance practices set in place by manufacturers that have spent millions on design, research & development, and extensive testing, so who am I to disagree.

For anyone interested in how lawyers and engineers look at the problem of losing wheels, here are a couple of web sites:

http://www.mcmathlaw.com/tread-separation.htm

http://www.peo.on.ca/publications/reports.html 

On the second site go down to the link  on Wheel Separations on Tractor Trailers

In any legal suit, there will be a parade of expert witnesses with completely opposite opinions and the jury will likely be people with no technical knowledge at all. I read on another board the comment that you will be tried by people not smart enough to get out of jury duty. Even the judges are not infallible and have different opinions which creates work for all the lawyers and judges in appeal courts.

For every one thing I do right, there are probably one thousand I do wrong. So I would probably be roasted by the system if anything bad happens. Now, should that stop me from doing the right thing? What happened to doing what's right for rights sake? "I'm screwed anyway so why bother" is following a logic that I don't get. I agree with Kyle's analogy, and with Happycampersrus, until proven otherwise, why not do what we know is right by following the industry standards. We should lead by example, for the sake of our lives, the lives of others, and for the benefit of our hobby. Is it really worth it to do otherwise?

I'm done here. Some believe it's ok to substitute their ideas for proper maintenance practices set in place by manufacturers that have spent millions on design, research & development, and extensive testing, so who am I to disagree.
   One thing I have learned here is to question everything!! I started out by going by DA book. Now I question DA book. And I would like to give a lubrication example. DA book for my MCI5C calls for SAE 30 oil for the front wheel bearings. A poster asked what wieght oil to use in wheel bearings? The responses were everthing from SAE 5 to grease. Front wheel bearings are an important part of the system.
ClarkeEcholes as a writter of tech manuals. Stated that the engineers who wrote the manuals would spec whatever was commonly available! So much for extensive research. Actually my bus uses SAE 40, it seems like that should be the called for lube, if useing commonly available materials.
So if I use SAE 40 instead of SAE 30 and cause an accident becuse of a front wheel bearing failure. I'm liable! I am not following the service manual.

I use anti sieze on my wheels, I'm not going to pull the wheels and remove it. I  may not use it again. But I'm not changeing the oil in the wheel bearings.
 

Quote from: jjrbus on March 13, 2007, 05:56:21 PM
.  .  .  .ClarkeEcholes as a writter of tech manuals. Stated that the engineers who wrote the manuals would spec whatever was commonly available! .  .  .  . 

Just because a commonly available item is spec'd, doesn't mean they didn't research it. AND, just because it is in Da' book doesn't mean it was researched either.

So, when the question is answered with reasonable thought vs "I done it this way fer years & aint kilt no one that anybody noticed", you should think for your self & decide which opinions are rubbish & which are best for your needs.

I've worked with some amazingly lazy engineers, and I've also worked with some idiots with a Professional Engineer's license too. But for the most part, the engineers I've worked with are smarter than they get credit for & do excellent work.

Stan gave a link to an article that explained a little better about how a budd wheel connection can fail when the nuts are screwed on too tight, be it from a wrench monkey with a 2000 ft lb impact gun or from the use of improper lubrication. The article's editorial slant was a bit biased towards hub piloted wheels & made it sound as tho the budd wheels should be outlawed, but the description of how the lug nut's taper affects the stresses in the rim was pretty good at clueing in the un-informed.

I'm going with jjrbus here.

I think what he is saying is to use your own brain, do some thinking, do some research and don't get all balled up in reading too many long-winded tech articles written by experts.

The world is composed of leaders and the led. The led don't bother to think so they follow rules written by others--who may or may not know what they are doing!

Gus,

I believe you are a pilot right? I once was, until I had children and I didn't have the time or financial resources to stay current. (My first solo was a 1939 J-4 Cub, Wow! It was fun!). Do you follow that same logic when you calculate your weights and balances? I bet you go by the book. Cowboy pilots don't live long. BTW, I am an engineer; we don't just sit around and make this stuff up. What am I missing?

It sounds like the engineers are most comfortable with these wheel threads riding around in a stuck or frozen condition. When I do tires at nite I see sparks fly if I run them down dry. The threads are being destroyed pretty fast. Its not a big deal to grab a new inner or outer (as they show wear) and mix used with new each time the wheel is off and back on. It is a big deal to grab a new stud and throw it in every time you need one. I know my operation is rare in that I have 10 real good studs on all my trucks. I keep the lug threads like new by continually using lube for assembly. I can get 20 or more wheel switches out of a set of studs using lube before they have to be replaced. Replacing studs properly is another issue, (they are press fit). If I put in 10 new studs with my bad boy IR and don't use lube, there is a 50-50 chance I will damage one of the new studs the first time I run them down. If I continue this practice dry, by the time I have done 6 wheel switches at least 4 of the 10 studs will have thread damage and at least 1 will be dummyed using an over the counter tool sold at tire service stores just for this purpose. This is not the me you want to share the road with, and the studs and hardware will just continue to go downhill. What the engineer hasn't told us is how often to change the studs if we do it his way. Possibly every time? I can't torque a head bolt dry for the obvious reasons, (it ain't good enough). I can't keep wheel hardware in service without lube, unless I spend alot of time in the shop and a ton of money that doesn't need to be spent. I don't use much never-seize but it seems like it says on the can one of its uses is truck lug nuts. Anyone want to take a shot at left and rights? Should we reverse them if our bus motor turns left?

Expert witnesses, there are plenty of those, the question is just how much of an expert can you afford? Lawyers have mothers too........................don't they? ::) What ever happen to Perry Mason? I actually liked him! Being quilty or cupable have no bearing on a case, it's all in how you twist those tiny little words! Ethics...........lol.....now there's a funny word!  Integrity, is another one. I'm old enough to remember what those were! ;D  It's so simple, "Even a Caveman can do it"!         

I'm amazed that anyone would think that "the engineers are most comfortable with these wheel threads riding around in a stuck or frozen condition." That is plain dumb! Do you really think someone looking at the whole picture would ignore that? If you would READ & pay attention, the engineers NEVER said that! What has been said is to find the proper way to address the corrosion issues without compromising the bolted connection. IE: without cutting strings. The un-controlled use of lubricants in this joint can cause catastrophic failure. That is why those that understand all that is going on in this joint are so concerned with the use of lubricants.

I'll bet there are corrosion preventers out there, but no one sells them because no one is buying them. Things are sold based on demand, not need (who NEEDS french fries, whoppers, super size, twinkies, Thump-thump stereos, neon lights under car, old buses  ;) etc).

Some said they used an impact gun to put on the nuts, I don't! I may use a small one to run them up but NEVER to tighten them. The reason is that even tho I was using torque sticks (& was doing it as the included instructions recommended), I was sometimes getting damage to the studs & nuts. since I have stopped using the impact gun, I haven't damaged any more studs or nuts. Impact guns are for production where current shop time is more important than future replacement cost of a few studs/ nuts.

Have you ever used an impact gun on a coil spring compressor? You WILL blow the threads out of it, BTDT when I loaned out MY coil spring compressor to someone who was trigger happy  :'( .

Do it your way, at least you have been exposed to the right way, wether you believe it or not .

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.  ;D

BTW, I have pointed out that there are several different  types of anti seize. I'm sure some of them have similar initial lubricating qualities of 30wt. I would imagine if, by dumb luck (have YOU ever compared them), you were using one of those, you would be fine.

Another thing, those advocating using anti seize, where & how much are you using it, threads, tapered seat, hub pilot, flange? AND do you properly recheck the nut torque as recommended?

Inquiring minds & all.

BTW, do you know what is happening when you torque the lugs? You are stretching the stud to get the required clamping force to retain the wheel. Excessive force will over stress & deform the components which reduces their effectiveness. Since no one wants to buy the tools necessary to measure this stud stretch, the engineers had to come up with something else - applied torque to the threaded fastener. The problem with this method is that there are so many variables that affect the resultant stud stretch for a given torque. Extensive testing has shown dry torque is the most repeatable.

Something else that has been proven here, people don't follow instructions given by the producer they paid to design & manufacture something for them. So the engineers also have to try to anticipate the results of those 'field experts' & still provide an abuse tolerant product.

After being abused by sales & marketing, 'field expert' abuse is a cake walk!  ;D

Ok, I have been thinking about this disconnect the two camps seem to be having and I am not really sure I understand why, but I will give it a shot. I think the problem arises as some of us are talking about a very specific thing (anit-sieze on lug nuts) and others are talking in generalities. If we go with the general route, then I will admit that I don't always follow procedures. Engineers don't have it right 100% of the time or there would never be any improvements or we would never have any failures etc. I can give an example that I know of. A mechanic shared this with me: There is a sensor located on the top of a transmission on the bell-housing. The service manual says to access it you must remove everything on the top of the engine, even the manifold. It required several hours to do the job. Someone figured out that if you removed the drive shaft, undid the rear transmission and motor mounts, and drop the transmission six inches (enough to get your hand up there) you could access that sensor from the backside. Now it only took 30min to complete the job. So which way was better? No contest there. But, specifically talking about anti-sieze on the lug nuts I will accept the industry standards and use the 30wt oil. If I am mounting correctly, inspecting regularly, and doing the maintenance that I expect to do, I don't feel that I will have a need for a product like never-sieze in that application. Give me some feedback. Am I way off on this one?

Barnowl: Did you read the two links I posted re lawyers and engineers. The lawyers viewpoint, with ample evidence to back him up, is that the stud mount wheel is a design defect and Firestone (now Accuride) should be held liable for all wheel failures. I guess that is the go after the deep pockets theory.

The Ontario Professional Engineers Association did extensive research on wheel failures and really makes it scary to use stud mount wheels. For example, in one of their tests, they found that wheels properly torqued in the shop, lost torque when taken out in cold weather. Even on hub mount wheels, there is no easy way to check the studs for nitrogen/hydrogen embrittelment.

The criteria to hold torque is to put the fastener in tension but not to exceed the elastic limit of the material. I think we all fortunate that most fasteners are used well within their elastic limits and will withstand a lot of abuse. If this were not the case, wheel separation would be a common thing.

I see some shops now make extensive use of torque wrenches when working on vehicles, but the majority of engines, transmissions and drivelines were installed, by mechanics, by guess and were usually tighter than the recommended torque (unless the bolts were difficult to access).

As Kyle points out, no amount of education, training or licensing can overcome the fact that some people will be lazy, stupid or both.  After a long list of unsatisfactory work done by certified people in tire shops and garages, I decided that I would do my own maintenance whenever possible.

Stan, I agree with you. I read the articles last night and they were a real eye opener. One of my shortfalls is not being able to communicate as well as I would like. I haven't jumped ship.

OK, How about if I muddy the waters a little?

Anti-seize, aka: Never-seize is not strictly a lubricant. That is a misnomer.

Only the carrier is a lubricant, whether that is petroleum based, water based, or some other base.

Anti-seize is actually doing the ame job as the anode rod in your waterheater.

The metals in the compound are sacrificial in order to keep the stud and the nut from rusting together or rusting away.

Depending on the type of metals you are using, there are different compounds containing different metals. Anything from aluminum, copper, zinc, iron, tin, etc., on up to silver and gold.

They are also built for different temperature extremes. Anything from -40° C or F (It's the same), to over 2500° F

With all the differences in compounds, how much research would be required to evaluate each one, and who would pay for it?
Just my pair of Dinars

Dallas

My opinion on this is that I would defer to the commercial driving manual in the area of pre trip inspections, which if everyone were to actually do them in completeness, would likely alleviate a large percentage of accidents.  It has been said here in the posts that you should check your vehicle at every rest stop.  That is also good advice although not a legal requirment in British Columbia.  I have used never seize for many years on many different applications including wheel studs, (sparingly).  Torqued to spec and then rechecked later at apprx 100 km and yes even again at another not to distant date.  For information to some that may not know.  Part of a pretrip is an actual visual and hands on inspection of wheel nuts.  When doing the visual, I am looking for rust stains from around the nut(first possible sign of problems)  Looking for obvious signs like missing lug nuts, etc.  If needed, pull out the wheel wrench and leverage multiplyer and physically check for wheel nut tightness.  While inspecting in pretrip, you are also looking for and physically checking tire status and oils, etc leaking.  Checking for cuts, inflation, cupping, etc, the more adept we become at this, the safer we all will be.  Pretrip inspection sheets are likely available at your local DMV.  Anyway this one has been beat up, and yet they are all good opinions and information.  Remember stay safe to stay alive, and there are no dumb questions.. ; ;D
Dave, PD4104 in finally sunny Victoria.

NJT5573,

I can't disagree with a thing you said. You have the actual experience (Something missing in too many posts) and you have experimented and thought this thing through. Too bad there isn't more use of your kind of system. A little bit of common sense goes a long way in making life more enjoyable.

The last thing we need is a bunch of poorly written rules blindly followed by mentally lazy people.

Barn Owl,

I've been a pilot for 50 years, now have an Aeronca 7AC for fun flying. Most light planes don't require W&B computations every flight. Once it has been done you know very closely what it will be for each flight. Not so with the big boys, theirs are very critical. You also quickly learn your normal fuel consumption so there is no need to do all the math for every flight. Experience and thinking!

Gus,

You put anti-seize on lugs because it makes them easier to remove? Right?

So when you have part high time on an aircraft, why not use fishing line because its easier to remove than .032 safety wire.

Or susbstitute coarse thread fasteners for fine thread, because they unscrew faster? Might work just as good. (experiment)

If you got a brand new Whirlwind Prop for fathers day (BTW there nice),  I would bet my bus that you would follow the manufacturers installation instructions or the MIM's for your aircraft. Or at least I hope you don't fly around me.  ;D

Do you guess at any torque values on your aircraft?? That's what you are doing by playing with the lubrication of the wheel fasteners on your bus.

I run a maintenance garage for a large sawmill and logging outfit. Do a search for Turman sawmills, Turman hardwood flooring, Turman group, and Turman log homes. Between all the trucks and equipment we have well over 1k pieces in various locations and we do heavy equipment repair for some smaller companies.

I have over 35 years experience in vehicle maintenance, I'm licensed to saftey inspect in Virginia, and at one time I was a licensed Airframes & Powerplants mechanic. I have been a CDI and a QAR on real aircraft.

I have the experience and the proper training to work on just about anything, so does that give me the knowledge or right to experiment with something that can get someone hurt or killed?

In my company you wouldn't have a job after you got caught using never-seize or substituting (your own way)maintenance practices on anything we service or repair. We don't want the LIABILITY when something comes loose. We have to be on our game and trust me our guys are top notch or they don't make it long.

Gus,

I love the Aronica! I loved flying the tail-draggers! I never flew an Aronica but always wished I could. I know they are better than the cubs, and back when I was dreaming about owning a plane, they seemed more affordable. I flew out of New London Airport; I don't know if you ever heard of Rucker Tibbs, he seems to be somewhat of a legend around these parts with the flying community. All of his students had to first solo in the J4 before moving on to a plane with radios. One of these days I would love to meet and see your plane and your bus. Just talking about it gives me the fever.

Laryn

Quote from: Happycampersrus on March 15, 2007, 05:55:47 AM

So when you have part high time on an aircraft, why not use fishing line because its easier to remove than .032 safety wire.

Probably because the aviation industry doesn't widely use fishing line in place of safety wire.  Nice stretch though. :)  That's what you seem to choose to ignore.  A large portion of the industry DOES and will continue to use never-sieze on lug nuts.  Whether it's right or wrong, it's been done for many, many years...and I've yet to see an incident where never-sieze was named as the cause.  The cause is almost always improper torque.  You can try to connect the two by saying that never-sieze caused the improper torque, but you know as well as I do that most shops don't use torque wrenches and that this is the real cuprit.

If you're really worried about being on the road beside a vehicle using never-sieze, you better launch this crusade against the industry.  If you're rolling beside a truck with plates originating from a northern state, there's a good chance there is never-sieze on the lugs.

Ross

"Probably because the aviation industry doesn't widely use fishing line in place of safety wire.  Nice stretch though."

Not a stretch at all. People are substituting their own ideas for proven maintenance practices by trying to out think the manufacturers widely used or not.


"If you're really worried about being on the road beside a vehicle using never-sieze, you better launch this crusade against the industry.  If you're rolling beside a truck with plates originating from a northern state, there's a good chance there is never-sieze on the lugs."

Does make me wonder what kinda other stuff folks have rigged up.

The crusade is already launched. If you will do a search of and count the million responses of lawyers just waiting to fry you and finding an UNAPPROVED maintenance practice is just going to add to their case.

If you do another search and read were companies with poor maintenance practices have already been fried.

Do another search and read were the NTSB has cited poor wheel maintenance practices for causing accidents.

"That's what you seem to choose to ignore.  A large portion of the industry DOES and will continue to use never-sieze on lug nuts."

I'm not ignoring anything here. Those that choose to make up their own ideas about maintenance, make my job that much harder. Just because alot of folks do it doesn't make it a good practice.


"The cause is almost always improper torque."

Right!

What you and others in the trucking industry are choosing to ignore is that after you use an UNAPPROVED lube, There is no way you can acheive a proper torque spec! so why use a torque wrench anyway. ;D

Yeah yeah yeah yadda yadda, come on don't beat up on the pilots Happy, lol ;D.  One thing i forgot to mention in my post yesterday was that allot of the so called "experts" or trained or certified technicians do not actually use a torque wrench when putting lugs on cars, trucks, coaches, and yes maybe even planes, lol.  Seems they forgot that part of the learning curve.  So my advice is if I take my coach in for repairs and i see some trained monkey or "expert" as they are referred to in the posts banging away with a 3/4" or 1" or bigger air gun to tighten my lugs, I might tend to use some expletives, but most definitely not going back to that shop and nor would i recommend them.  Again, as for the use of never seize.  Maybe mythbusters should do a series or a show on it.  Because it is a lubricant as water is, I think i am hearing the possibility or inference that you should not change a wheel in the rain or when the studs or lugs are wet, because water could potentially cause improper torque to be applied to the stud, lol.  Come on guys relax and ligthen up.  I think we all know that if and when the lawyers get involved, two things are gonna happen, someones gonna lose a house and a car, oh sorry wrong situation, but i think you get the idea.  I have taken business law which covers of tort and liability and a few other scenarios.  I have acquaintance who is a lawyer.  One of the industry (law) sayings is that all lawyers are shysters, the only difference between the good and the bad ones, is the good one is working for you!!!!
As usual though i find these posts and others a good source of debate and informative.  My own opinion is that I will still use the never seize sparingly on the studs/lugs of all my vehicles as I have always done with not one ever coming lose to date.  This is probably due to pre trip type of checks as previously posted.   A pre trip is far from just checking tires, its about over all driveability and safety of any moving vehicle.  I know pilots do them or are at least supposed to do them, as I once carried a private pilots license.  And as noted previously, these pre trip inspection sheets should or could be available from everones DMV or even online.  If you have never done one, or seen one, it will likely be an eye opener and very informative.  They cover off quite a bit and just think of it as potentially saving you money.  A friend just got back from Tuscon for the winter, and mentioned that he had a blow out on his toad coming through portland.  I did not ask him if he did a pre check on the toad prior to starting or noticed if the tire was low.  Result for him.  Needs new rim and tire and bodywork to right rear quarter panel of toad.  So again, do pre trips work and potentially save money.  I can't really say, but i have never had  wheel come off or a break down yet due to any of the related symptoms, so maybe if i stop them, that might change. 
Cheers and remember stay safe to stay alive.
PD4104 Dave out

  I did a search on anti/never  seize type products. Did you  know there was one for nuclear applications? After a lengthly search I have learned which one to use where. Actually I will probobly forget it in a day or two, but I know where to look it up again.
  None of the products that I checked show lugnuts as a suggested application.
I may not use it again but I'm still not going to take off the wheels and remove it.
Kyle suggested that there may be a anti/never seize product with the same propertys as 30 wt oil, but I can not find it.

Great threads vs. many that are helpful but don't contain much technical data.  I thought I'd jump in with my experience regarding loosing wheels. 

I used to be VP of Engineering for a large company that also manufactured boats.  We also produced our own trailers.  The trailers that lost wheels were mainly aluminum rims, only 14" diameter and five bolts and we used to experience a few times when nearly new trailers would loose a wheel.  After the trailler was used for a while it didn't happen.  Having very deep pockets to afford to fix safety problems and protect the company assets we had Professional Engineers, metallurgists and "experts" inspect, measure, dissect and evaluate our lugs, nuts, rims and hubs as to why.  We instituted several manufacturing processes to be absolutely certain that the lug nuts were torqued, inspected and re-torqued.  We also had decals that instructed owners to re-torque at certain miles.  With all the experts we never got a reason as to why and finally went back to steel rims that seemed to lessen the problem.

In spite of everything, that parent company went bankrupt (nothing to do with lost rims) and I was without a job for a few months.  The vendor that sold us tires and the rims hired me to do further work on this problem so they could sell product to others with no problems.  I tested, torqued, measured, changed parts and other things for weeks.  Finally I began to find patterns that emerged when you have a big enough pile of product.  My finding was that when the trailer (without wheels on) was going through the paint shop that excess paint was being applied to the hubs.  That paint crushed from the torque of the wheel and flexing while underway and the lugs loosened.  That was in 2000.  About three years later the DOT figured out the same thing and has had training and bulletins for trailer builders to not apply paint to hubs.  It doesn't seem to bother new automotive vehicles because they ED paint and it is thin, but this was urethane and sprayed heavily to resist corrosion.

While this doesn't relate to using never seize, I think it shows that there is a lot going on that isn't obvious.  I also found from talking to many wheel and hub manufacturers a consensus not to lube or use never seize, but they didn't give a good reason why.  The failure in this case was due to the crush of a few mils of paint.  I never have used never seize, but I have used spray oil films in areas that salt the highways.  Now I will use just 30 wt., thanks to all the discussions here. 

I can see why the paint problem came as a surprise. Urethane paint tends to set up almost as hard as metal and one would not expect about 80 ft/lb  of torque on five studs would crush the paint under an aluminum wheel.

It is curious why re-torgueing  didn't work when the trailer was new but worked later on. Presumably the crush occured on the initial torqueing.

My guess is that the movement between the rim % hub was scraping the paint away. You may be surprised at how much trouble a few .000001" of movement can cause in clamped parts. BTDT

Kyle: I don't think ten millionths will have much effect on wheels with tapered holes. That would be less than the stretch in the studs. Trailer wheels are not like drive wheels, there is nothing trying to rotate the wheel on the hub

Good point Stan, but I'm not talking movement in the direction of the studs. I'm talking about movement perpendicular to the studs (the rim sliding against the hub).

The weight of the trailer puts a shear load on the assembly. For a ~24" dia tire, that is ~840 cycles per mile. It doesn't take long for those cycles to add up & the movement of the high spots to work their way thru a few thousandths of paint.

My steel budd wheels are 3/8" thick, If the nuts are tightened to 2% yeild of the stud, the stud will stretch .0075". But, since nuts are softer than the studs, you will strip the nut before you get that much stretch. (I gotta figgure those people who are having to replace the studs frequently are over tightening them, but that is just my guess.) So, If the paint is .004 thick, that is a significant reduction in stud stretch. That's one reason why the lugs need checked after being returned to service.

There is a lot more going on in this type of joint than most realize. We haven't even mentioned loss of preload due to the torsional relaxation of the stud (applying torque to the nut twists the stud a little. In use this twist can relax & reduce the clamping force. - But this is usually a very small issue that doesn't make much difference when compared to other issues.)

More about bolts than we would probably ever need:

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/info.htm

Home page for Bolt Science (This site could keep you busy for a while):

http://www.boltscience.com/index.htm

"Trailer wheels are not like drive wheels, there is nothing trying to rotate the wheel on the hub"

Brakes?

happycamper,

I use anti-seize so I CAN get the lug nuts off, not to make it easier. I though I made that pretty clear.

You wrote a lot of interesting stuff, some of it a bit off the wall, but didn't say anything about anti-seize actually causing wheels to fall off.

Barn Owl,

The Aeronca 7AC is not a lot different from a Piper J-3 Cub except it is soloed from the front or rear and the Cub only from the rear. I started instructing in Cubs many years ago and really like them but think the 7AC is a bit better and it is quite a bit faster.

I've done quite a bit of flying in the east, got my multi-engine, instrument and CFI ratings at Zahns airport on Long Island and flew around CT quite a bit. The airways there weren't quite so congested then, it is really a mess now.

Don't just think about flying, do it. It is never too late!! If you're ever down in Ark drop me an email and we'll go flying and talk about buses.

I almost forgot to tell you, I got my 4104 from a guy just SE of Roanoke last Aug.

Well, the paint on the wheels is a good story. My steel wheels are painted on both sides, go figure. Only a jam nut holds the wheels and hubs on at the bearings and it runs in gear oil. You set the bearing by pulling it until the wheel won't turn and then back it off about 30 degrees. Wonder what percentage of that .03% was not lug nut related but jam nut problems, releasing drum and all? I'd be afraid of legal BS if I didn't have a large ins. policy in my pocket. THATS what the attorneys are after and everyone should have a million $ policy out there for them to chase. Your ins. co. will take care of the rest. I don't scare easy but i'm not stupid either. Trucks normally run 1-5 million liability. As a group, I understand we are somewhat elite with our outstanding safety record. Insurance is cheap. Buy the uninsured motorist in case you are badly injured and your damages go over the $25,000 lots of people are driving with. Don't forget to help the engineers merge!