Good morning bus folks!,
From an earlier post, we had a lot of problems getting the correct front air bags for our DL3-45 and finally resolved via Continental. But now the correct bags have arrived, and fit.
The bags are the two piece design, meaning they seal (bead?) up against the top retainers lip on the mounting plate vs. being crimped on to the plate, and then the weight of the bus on the bags as they are inflated seals them. Best I can explain it.
The seals aren't happening and the bags are leaking where it hits the plate. Mechanic tried several times - and we even ran an air hose in from the shop compressor to try to get them to seat but still no joy. We are leaving the bottom of the bag unsecured as per MCI instructions during the process.
Pictures below.
Has anyone had this issue and some hints which could help? I've got the manual but basically just says to install to top retainer first and be sure the top bead is secured in the retainer's lip.
Thank you!, Phil
Good evening Bus Folk!
Thinking about seating the bags as best as we can, then driving the bus a very short distance ( couple hundred feet ) to see whether the bags catch and seat on the ridge with the 'jostling' as the bus moves.
Any thoughts, concerns? Doomed to fail, or wild success?
Thanks!, Phil
** UPDATE 3.22.2021 ** MCI sez NO to this approach. Risk is that the air bags could rip on the lip of the metal top plate while grabbing the plate due to the increased weight of the bus.
I thought that design was superceded by a whole unit with plates attached.
Interesting, had just been replacing like-for-like. Maybe newer setup fits? Will look into that further. Not a lot of success so far w/ this approach.
Thank you!, Phil
So far bolt patterns for newer plates are not the same. [edited] Still checking......
Thanks again, Phil
Earlier 4905's used a two three piece air bag with separate plates, like yours. Is was superceded by new style with plates vulcanized to the bellows.
So much easier to have just the air bag / vulcanized like that.
Do you know whether there was any kind of 'trick' to getting them to seal properly ?
Thank you!! Phil
There was something in the GMC service manual on procedure. They show installing plates in bellows, aligning arrows on bellows with arrow on plates, making sure upper and lower plates are indexed to each other in reference to mounting studs. Inflate airbag to seat plates. Then sit assembly in arbor press and inflate enough while operating press to allow bag to fold into itself properly. Personally, I would change to the newer design if at all practible. Quicker installation and less chance of air leaks between plates and bellows lips. Did you talk to Luke about this? Maybe he would be able to get the newer style.
Truck tire places will have some heavy goop "Murphy grease" they use to bridge reluctant beads. That and hit it with a blast of air.
Thanks very much for suggestions re: procedures and grease. We'll give it another shot Thursday and I'll hopefully have a positive update. And yes, we did indeed contact Luke.
With best regards, Phil
You are gonna laugh, but there is a similar failure mode on Goodyear air bags used on the Ridewell suspension Newells that happens when the coach is raised to maximum height. That bead breaks loose from it's seal. Twice, about a quart of Slime into the leaking airbag has put the show back on the road.
Quote from: RichardEntrekin on March 24, 2021, 05:56:44 AM
You are gonna laugh, but there is a similar failure mode on Goodyear air bags used on the Ridewell suspension Newells that happens when the coach is raised to maximum height. That bead breaks loose from it's seal. Twice, about a quart of Slime into the leaking airbag has put the show back on the road.
Definitely keeping that in mind Richard. Wouldn't hurt for me to carry a couple of cans of the Slime with us.
Thank you!, Phil
Maybe maximum height setting needs adjusted if that's possible.
Did you get them to inflate? and what worked?
Curious minds want to know.
Thank you for the follow up!
Found a replacement one piece air bag, bolt pattern match, size match. Will post part #s soon. Install should be later this week.
We shall see.
Kind Regards, Phil
Great to hear!
Bah, another incorrect set of airbags received. Single post vs. double. No single piece airbag available. Anything that supersedes our airbags is single post. We need double post. Murphy grease solution may be next. Will update soon. I hope!
Meanwhile, our MC9 is running great up in Utah.
Kind regards, Phil
So...... you know what you need in terms of dimensions and stud location.
If you will take the time to study the Firestone catalog, you will see that the gazillions of air bags out there are a combo of one bellows, one top plate, and one bottom plate. Take a few minutes to identify what you have, then peruse the catalog till you identify those three components. Then you can see what is available.
On my ride, the bags for the tag were supposedly obsolete. They were. But Firestone made the SAME bag with the bottom studs at a different orientation to the top studs. Simple to loosen the bottom plate and rotate it. I had bags in hand in a week by not depending upon parts guys to send me the right thing.
You may not be a Firestone fan, but once you have the Firestone number you can cross ref to Goodyear or some other. AS Cliff said, Goodyear is now Stemco.
https://www.firestoneip.com/content/dam/fsip/pdfs/airide/airide-aftermarket/commercial-air-spring-catalog-us.pdf
https://www.doverbrakeinc.com/downloads/catelogs/STEMCO%20AIR%20SPRING%20CATALOG.pdf
here are pictures of topand bottom of 4905 bags that replaced the three piece pita.Notice the Goodyear tag.
Thanks Gentlemen for the responses. Much appreciated. Running out of time & need to be on the road this Saturday, so have ordered and will give the Murphy grease a shot tomorrow / Friday. It's supposed to arrive at the local O'Reilly store tomorrow a.m. If that doesn't work - it will be studying the catalog - it does look exhaustive so I'm confident there should be something there for our bus.
With best regards, Phil
got a local bus company that uses air bag suspension? Maybe they have an old head that has assembled them in past and will do them for you.
When you are messing with them, get all the critical info. Plate diameter, bolt size and spacing, and the number off the rubber air bag. I can help you decode the air bag catalog if you have that info.
Chessie, can you post the Goodyear number. I cannot read it clearly when I enlarge your photo.
Will do, as soon as I get home.
IR 10-030
Gm 667513A
566 202 030 0000
Have you spoke with Sam Caylor if not call him he a sharp guy on MCI's
all right, I am officially confused. Is is Chessie or Plyons that needs help locating an alternate bag?
Or is Chessie trying to say that the air bag he pictured and provided the Goodyear number for, will fit Plyons bus?
Sorry for being so dense.
Phil needs the bag if he calls Sam he can tell him what replaces the bags or may even have the newer bags .working with a air suspension on a bus is not a rocket science with a torch,welding machine and drill you can adapt other air springs on a DL3
I don't need a bag. From Plyons description of a bag he needed, I took a picture of one of my 4905 replacement model. Maybe it is the same or similar. Many coach parts are the same between brands, especially the older models.
Thank you both for the clarification.
We will wait to hear from Phil.
Cliff, I hear you. Someone had used a gas saw to punch alternate mounting holes for one of my bags, not realizing the mounting bolts could be rotated on the bottom of the bag. Only issue with what they did, was it put the nuts in a hard to access place. They worked themselves pretty hard to make the job harder than it needed to be.
Slow process - especially w/ work during the day. Spoke w/the guys at C&J Bus Repair in MN - as recommended by Luke. They do a lot of MCI coach service and sell parts as well. They felt strongly that someone had switched out the standard bags with the two piece units. And they provided model #s for the single piece bags. I ordered one as a spare and just to check it out. Their prices are much more reasonable than what I paid for the 2 piece setup. It will be interesting to see whether this bag fits. :o There may be quite a collection here soon. As C&J also handle Van Hools, they did say based on the pictures I provided, that this looks like a Van Hool setup.
Anyways - as things happen I'll post it here. Hopefully will help someone in the future.
Re: Sam Caylor - thank you Cliff, no I have not yet talked w/ Sam. I appreciate the referral.
Best Regards, Phil
Your in good hands with C/J or Sam ,it was my 1st though someone changed the bags because my D wasn't that way
Oh for...
Got the two piece air bag out from the bus, mechanic tried to seat it w/o mounting - Murphy's grease , using 20-30 psi, it obviously does not fit. Seriously - not possible. Even this two piece bag which was supposed to match the previous 2 piece was a no-go. I guess, at least it had 2 posts.
Luke had recommended C&J bus repair, and as Cliff said -we were in good hands. I only ordered one bag as collecting air bags isn't as fun as it sounds.
Installed the single bag - and the one sent out by C&J was absolutely, totally, completely, a perfect fit. Wow. Part # is :
12L-1-140 : BELLOW D & DL STEER, DRIVE, TAG ON 102DL3 #1R12-396
This is for our DL3-45 1994. Could be '95.
I just ordered 2 more (1 spare).
It's supposed to fit all 8 positions. more updates to come.
Hope this helps - someone..
On my DL3 (model year 1998) it des in fact use the same bag on all positions, however there are different part numbers for the steer than all the others. The only difference though is that the steer uses some plastic cone thingy insert that is included by using the different oem part number. The bag itself still has the same number on it as all the rest though.
Who knew there could be so much to a couple of air bags? :o Thanks Derrick, I will check that out when the other bags for the front arrive next week.
Kind Regards, Phil
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