Justin from Wrico recommends that air blows out through the radiator rather than sucking in through the radiator. In my case, that could mean trying to blow air out the side of the bus. Will I run into issues with air blowing out the side of the bus while driving down the road?
My previous generator had a factory enclosure similar to an Onan Quiet Diesel. It sucked air in through the radiator which didn't seem to cause any issues. The air was pulled in from the side of the bus and exhausted out the bottom.
Two things come to mind,,air pulled in from the side will also do well cooling the engine after being pulled thru the radiator,, air pulled from the bottom off hot asphalt is hotter than it would be from the side at three feet off the pavement..>>>Dan
Mine pulls air from the driver's side of the bus, through the radiator, across the gen head/engine, and then out through the floor of the bay by way of the large squirrel fan.
What is cooling the electric generating bits? At full pop, there's a lot of heat... fresh air or heated radiator air?
Cooking the head gets expensive in a hurry.
Controlling the uncontrolled... Suction on the enclosure controls where exhaust leaks go, out the rad. Blowing into the enclosure pressurizes it and then every seam and crack is a potential CO problem.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
All the large (750KW) commercial generators that are enclosed blow through the radiator that I work on
Quote from: buswarrior on March 13, 2021, 07:00:36 PM
What is cooling the electric generating bits? At full pop, there's a lot of heat... fresh air or heated radiator air?
This question is just about the radiator which is planned to be external of the radiator enclosure.
My remote mount radiator on my Eagle blew through the radiator ,my 12500 Onan with the radiator laying flat blows through the radiator and creates a lot of dust in some parking lots ? is do want the dust sucking in or blowing out
My generator blows out the radiator and yes the air flow out going down the road stops so my generator would shut down (over heat) it would run for hours when your not moving. So I put a 14" Hayden electric radiator fan with a thermostat on the grill to push the air out it has worked great ever sense. in regards to air intake from the bottom of the bus I put a weatherproof air filter kind of like a furnace filter and yes its washable.
I have four different generator setups, and the only one that gave me trouble was the remote radiator one that had the intake in the center of the front baggage bay. It would cool fine sitting still, but going down the road it was in a low pressure area and the engine would get hotter. The entertainer Eagles have a grille on the side vertical wall, and the exhaust on the other side of the coach. Whenever there are intakes or exhausts on the underbelly, dust clouds will form outside or everything inside gets dirty quick, if you go on dirt roads. A filter might help temporarily, but not long term.
It seems logical that if the air flows past the engine and then past the radiator to the outside that the most heat would be taken away, but the air flow volume has to handle the generator, the engine, and the radiator. The remote radiators can handle the heat with the correct size, but then you might need a second fan to move air from the generator compartment. Two different sizes of squirrel cage fans is what Martin Diesel recommended for their setup (the bigger one was for the radiator), but I think both fans should have been bigger, and had variable speeds.
where the exhausted air comes out, so does noise. Coming out the bottom, the ground absorbs most or all. Dust? Lay down apiece of mud flap or wet ground. If it comes out the side, which side? Drivers side, could blow dust, heat, possibly diesel and fuel odor towards close by campers.Pass side, could blow where you sit and lounge. Just things to ponder. Personally, I prefer ground blow. Both my coaches are set up that way. But whatever works for you is best.
Like every other system on a bus conversion, in the end it's going to be a compromise. If you try and incorporate every suggestion made to cover all the possible situations it will never get done.
A good starting point is the physical layout of your particular install. I think that far more important to generator/engine cooling is air flow rather than the direction it's going. And, if you plan it correctly you can use the motion of the bus to increase air flow rather than have to fight it.
Wrico sold me two squirrel cage blowers. One large one for the radiator, and a second smaller one for cooling the generator compartment.
I will probably suck the air in from the side and exhaust it out the bottom. That is basically the same way my previous generator worked and no cooling issues going down the road.
My air intake I did two, one that goes directly to the head of the generator, the second to the box itself. the radiator exits between the front wheels. Installed two fans, one on the box intake side (relieve negative air pressure) and the big boy on the radiator. Works going down the road & no dust when stationary.
Quote from: chessie4905 on March 14, 2021, 04:35:05 AM
where the exhausted air comes out, so does noise. Coming out the bottom, the ground absorbs most or all. Dust? Lay down apiece of mud flap or wet ground. If it comes out the side, which side? Drivers side, could blow dust, heat, possibly diesel and fuel odor towards close by campers.Pass side, could blow where you sit and lounge. Just things to ponder. Personally, I prefer ground blow. Both my coaches are set up that way. But whatever works for you is best.
The dust problems I have had are when going over dry dirt roads and lots, or fairground grassy areas that have been pulverized and are like talcum powder. Big clouds of dust get stirred up easily, even the tires throw some dust while moving.
While parked it is possible to put something on the ground, but it might need to be bigger than a mud flap, and wetting might work for a little while. I think the best overall solution is a side wall intake high enough above the ground, and rooftop exhaust. The problem is finding the space inside for that exhaust chimney, but it could be combined with the exhaust piping. Keeping both the exhaust cooling air and the engine exhaust in a long run up to the roof might make it easier to muffle the noise as well. Maybe the waste tank vent pipe could included also. One passage-way for everything you want to get rid of quietly without offending the neighbors.
Quote from: silversport on March 14, 2021, 09:09:22 AM
My air intake I did two, one that goes directly to the head of the generator, the second to the box itself. the radiator exits between the front wheels. Installed two fans, one on the box intake side (relieve negative air pressure) and the big boy on the radiator. Works going down the road & no dust when stationary.
That looks like a great setup, but you must have an entire bay from one side to the other for your generator. I am sure it is quiet with all the foam and baffling. I wish I had the space to do something similar. I am a bit confused about how you duct the exhaust air between the wheels. How do you get the air down below the sides of the bus?
My Dina is 43 feet long, but has less luggage bay space than most 40 foot coaches. The wheelbase is very short so they had to sacrifice bay space. There are two full width bays about 50" wide and a third bay that is about 36" wide. One of the wide bays has 1/3 of the bay partitioned off for the A/C condensers and I used that space for the generator.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on March 14, 2021, 10:49:28 AM
While parked it is possible to put something on the ground, but it might need to be bigger than a mud flap, and wetting might work for a little while. I think the best overall solution is a side wall intake high enough above the ground, and rooftop exhaust. The problem is finding the space inside for that exhaust chimney, but it could be combined with the exhaust piping. Keeping both the exhaust cooling air and the engine exhaust in a long run up to the roof might make it easier to muffle the noise as well. Maybe the waste tank vent pipe could included also. One passage-way for everything you want to get rid of quietly without offending the neighbors.
How would you exit the roof and not have water getting into the bus? The couple of people I have talked to about exhaust through the roof have not really recommended it. My interior is complete so I would have to think long and hard about how to make a roof exhaust work. If the vents are set to pull air in they might very well pull in exhaust with the generator running.
Hmm... so the idea I'm getting from this is that the hot air exit might do well ducted through into the wheelwell with the intake through the door on the driver's side and the exhaust going up the outside of the bus, maybe with one of those double wall stainless rigs they sell at the RV stores, only permanently mounted. That sound about right? Then airbags for feet and an insulated box around the metal enclosure and it should be fairly quiet. At least I hope so.
Jim
maybe my bus is special but in between the front tires on my bus is positive pressure going down the road.
I have proof because when we were driving it down the road with a bunch of the inside missing, we had a few holes that you could see the wheels thru, and we had an unbelievable amount of air coming thru there. it was a 90 degree day that day, super hot in the front, as soon as we covered the holes with tape we could feel the air conditioners again.
Quote from: belfert on March 14, 2021, 11:03:14 AM
How would you exit the roof and not have water getting into the bus? The couple of people I have talked to about exhaust through the roof have not really recommended it. My interior is complete so I would have to think long and hard about how to make a roof exhaust work. If the vents are set to pull air in they might very well pull in exhaust with the generator running.
The setups I have seen had double pipes running continually from the bottom to the roof top. Any rainwater would drain straight down through. It has the advantage of a natural chimney draft as the hot air rises even if the fan is off. Of course, it would have to be a insulated continuous pipe or carefully sealed sections that are flashed at the roof joint. The flashing could be riveted and caulked just like the roof sections are. Some people have used cement fiber pipe as the outer pipe, but I think that would be more difficult to blend into the metal roof. Screening would keep birds and wasps out.
If you have fresh air vents with fans they would need to be a safe distance away, but usually the fan is blowing out drawing air in the windows, not blowing in from the roof. Space wise, since you have a finished interior, perhaps go through a closet area, or box in a corner.
It's a lot of work, but having the exhaust on the roof increases the chance of the fumes and noise not being offensive to neighbors. It's why people have gone through the effort of installing exhaust pipes on the outside of the coach for generators, either for temporary setup, or permanently. I think the outside pipes are more of a burn hazard, and they don't look particularly attractive. Having exhaust pipes coming out from just under the baggage floor, which is common, is offensive to the people in the campground and in neighboring cars when in stopped traffic. In these days of diesels being targeted as offensive and noisy, I think it is prudent to do what we can to keep a lower profile. Pipe might cost a few hundred or more, the main thing is the time of your labor, because I doubt that anyone is selling a kit to accomplish something like this.
Quote from: 6805eagleguy on March 14, 2021, 01:56:28 PM
maybe my bus is special but in between the front tires on my bus is positive pressure going down the road.
I have proof because when we were driving it down the road with a bunch of the inside missing, we had a few holes that you could see the wheels thru, and we had an unbelievable amount of air coming thru there. it was a 90 degree day that day, super hot in the front, as soon as we covered the holes with tape we could feel the air conditioners again.
Yep, your Eagle is special as it is now, but when it is all back together in original layout, there will be high and low pressure areas here and there. My Model 05 had the air intake for the generator compartment cooling located up high in the middle of the first baggage compartment, and it got less air the faster I went. Parked, everything was fine. If I was using it now, I would run ducting from under the front bumper to feed that area at highway speed.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on March 14, 2021, 02:12:18 PM
Yep, your Eagle is special as it is now, but when it is all back together in original layout, there will be high and low pressure areas here and there. My Model 05 had the air intake for the generator compartment cooling located up high in the middle of the first baggage compartment, and it got less air the faster I went. Parked, everything was fine. If I was using it now, I would run ducting from under the front bumper to feed that area at highway speed.
Looks mostly normal to me?
It is special tho. Just stating my experience ;)
Yes, I know that's exposed fiberglass on the front... :o
DoubleEagle, I like the way you think...
I have been fooling with ideas of a thru chamber, ground to sky, that everything offensive dumps into. Generator exhaust and cooling fans, the coolant boiler, tank vents...
Idea sort of germinated out of the "sea chest" concept in larger boats for access to cooling water...
No intrusion or bother to neighbours, or self, when the wind is blowing the "wrong" way. Sound, heat or stink.
Likely some baffling and a dog leg in it to some degree...
An out of coach mock-up to fool with the idea comes in the warmer weather.
I have the luxury of a new build to fool with...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Just because it goes out the roof doesnt mean it doesnt drop back down to gag somebody. Depends on location when running it.think about wood stoves or coal furnaces.
Quote from: 6805eagleguy on March 14, 2021, 02:38:36 PM
Looks mostly normal to me?
Your entrance door sets you apart from all other Eagles, is that the slanted edge window that came from the left front? It looks like you might be missing part of the covers for the spare tire area. That is maybe why you are scooping a lot of air and eliminating low pressure areas in the front. You definitely have done a lot of work, and now you only have a few thousand things left to do.
Quote from: chessie4905 on March 14, 2021, 04:52:56 PM
Just because it goes out the roof doesnt mean it doesnt drop back down to gag somebody. Depends on location when running it.think about wood stoves or coal furnaces.
It is a lot more likely that the exhaust will go away without bothering people at roof level than at ground level.
That said, there is a sod farm I drive by daily that heats the house/office and other buildings with an outdoor wood boiler. Some days the boiler is just pouring out smoke. Occasionally there will be a day when the wind is calm and the whole area just reeks of smoke.
Quote from: buswarrior on March 14, 2021, 04:45:41 PM
DoubleEagle, I like the way you think...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Well thank you, it's because of all the time I spent up in Canada, and watching Red Green.
I think the rough idea of a single chimney for several purposes has potential. I've only been toying with it for twenty years, but now it's time to put up or shut up. I figure my Model 15 will be the one to try it on. The only complication is that it has two generators, and I'd like to get the Series 60 exhaust up on the roof as well. I might gag some people on the ground, but at least everything will be more dispersed and higher up.
Quote from: belfert on March 13, 2021, 11:54:57 AM
It sucked air in through the radiator which didn't seem to cause any issues. The air was pulled in from the side of the bus and exhausted out the bottom.
Brian -Below are three photos of the genset configuration in my coach. As you can see in the first photo, there's a screened opening in front of the radiator for cooling air to be drawn in from below. Behind the rad is a squirrel cage blower that sucks thru the radiator, then discharges the hot air out the bottom thru a louvered vent that directs the airflow toward the drive axle. In two years, I've never seen the genset temperature gauge read over 175º, both moving and sitting still.
In the second photo, you can just barely see the squirrel cage blower that pressurizes the genset compartment on the left side of the genset in the rear. This blower draws air in from under the coach thru a similarly screened opening and blows the air over the generator head.
In the third photo, you can see the hot air discharge "chute" in the upper RH corner of the genset compartment. Like the radiator, this chute discharges thru a louvered opening that's also aimed at the rear axle. Both blowers, I might add, start automatically once the genset stabilizes and comes online. There is a small green light on the systems monitor panel that tells me they're operating.
BTW, the radiator is located in the adjacent bay.
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
Quote from: RJ on March 14, 2021, 10:59:26 PM
Below are three photos of the genset configuration in my coach. As you can see in the first photo, there's a screened opening in front of the radiator for cooling air to be drawn in from below. Behind the rad is a squirrel cage blower that sucks thru the radiator, then discharges the hot air out the bottom thru a louvered vent that directs the airflow toward the drive axle. In two years, I've never seen the genset temperature gauge read over 175º, both moving and sitting still.
How does the hot discharge air from the radiator not just get pulled right into the air intake?
I see you used the egg crate foam. Doesn't that stuff tend to start to turn into dust with time?
Brian keep in mind your engine is the latest tier model exhaust fumes are not a problem,the older Kubota engines were sorta of nasty burning ,lol a factory hush box generator would have been a lot easier IMO
In hindsight I should have just purchased the Cummins Quiet Diesel. I can't recall that there were any fit issues. I almost certainly would have gone with an enclosed generator if I could have found one not from Onan or Powertech. I've heard a lot about electronics failures with Cummins QD and that the boards are quite expensive which was a big reason not to choose Cummins QD.
My Kubota is tier 4 final, but I don't know how much the exhaust is really cleaned up. There is no SCR, EGR, or DPF so far as I know. Wrico did say the generator has been derated from 13KW to 12.5KW due to changes with the Kubota engine to meet tier 4 final.
Mine is the same, tier 4 whatchamacallit, it still smells pretty bad upon start up, when it was 20 degrees it made more smoke then the s60... :o
Quote from: belfert on March 15, 2021, 07:16:40 AM
In hindsight I should have just purchased the Cummins Quiet Diesel. I can't recall that there were any fit issues. I almost certainly would have gone with an enclosed generator if I could have found one not from Onan or Powertech. I've heard a lot about electronics failures with Cummins QD and that the boards are quite expensive which was a big reason not to choose Cummins QD.
The board hasn't been a problem with Onan in the past 15 years .the inverter model boards were a problem
My Kubota is tier 4 final, but I don't know how much the exhaust is really cleaned up. There is no SCR, EGR, or DPF so far as I know. Wrico did say the generator has been derated from 13KW to 12.5KW due to changes with the Kubota engine to meet tier 4 final.
There are quite a few internal changes to those little engine some are ok some are not lol they are not lasting 20,000 hours now I know that,Gary Hatt has a new model from Wrico it starts and burns clean
Quote from: DoubleEagle on March 14, 2021, 06:18:01 PM
Your entrance door sets you apart from all other Eagles, is that the slanted edge window that came from the left front? It looks like you might be missing part of the covers for the spare tire area. That is maybe why you are scooping a lot of air and eliminating low pressure areas in the front. You definitely have done a lot of work, and now you only have a few thousand things left to do.
Walter, that was a decent condition double pane window I got from another bus for free, so I decided to see how it would look...
well it looks ::)
But I think it's fine. Everybody knows it's mine ;D
It is quite possible the spare tire compartment pressurizes the under side of the bus.
Quote from: belfert on March 15, 2021, 04:44:12 AM
How does the hot discharge air from the radiator not just get pulled right into the air intake?
Brian -You must have missed that the hot air discharge from the radiator squirrel cage blows out thru a louvered vent that's pointed towards the drive axle (actually the RR duals.) The genset and rad are on the driver's side. If you walk around the bus with the genset running, you can feel the warm air flow standing by the RR duals, but there's no air flow near the LR duals. So the louvered vent is doing what it's supposed to do - blowing the hot air away from the intake area.
Quote from: belfert on March 15, 2021, 04:44:12 AM
I see you used the egg crate foam. Doesn't that stuff tend to start to turn into dust with time?
This is the original installation/insulation done by Vantarè in 1992, so the egg crate foam is now 29 years old. Hasn't started turning to dust yet. That being said, I'm sure that there are better products on the market today.
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
Brian, whetever you do, make sure serviceability reasonably easy.
Quote from: RJ on March 15, 2021, 11:45:08 AM
Brian -
You must have missed that the hot air discharge from the radiator squirrel cage blows out thru a louvered vent that's pointed towards the drive axle (actually the RR duals.) The genset and rad are on the driver's side. If you walk around the bus with the genset running, you can feel the warm air flow standing by the RR duals, but there's no air flow near the LR duals. So the louvered vent is doing what it's supposed to do - blowing the hot air away from the intake area.
This is the original installation/insulation done by Vantarè in 1992, so the egg crate foam is now 29 years old. Hasn't started turning to dust yet. That being said, I'm sure that there are better products on the market today.
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
Sorry, I missed the part about a louvered vent. I am still surprised it works, but it has been 29 years. This may very well be something I use.
There must be different grades of eggcrate foam. I have seen a lot of it that just crumbles at 29 years old when you touch it.
some pics of mine:
Quote from: chessie4905 on March 15, 2021, 04:19:38 PM
some pics of mine:
Do you have issues with extra noise due to not having a remote radiator? A setup like yours would work better for me, but the larger air ducting would seemingly allow more noise.
Quote from: chessie4905 on March 15, 2021, 04:19:38 PM
some pics of mine:
Your setup is similar to how my Powertech must have been set up in the past. I bought it used and the radiator is still in the same configuration as yours. I have a couple questions about your set up. First, do you like your Powertech and how loud is it in the quiet box? Also, what kind of fan do you have blowing into the quiet box?
Pretty quiet, although a relative term. Works fine, has brushless gen head. Love the way it can be rolled out of the bay enough for service. Currently setting up a separate fuel tank for it.
Another solution to the dust blowing while the generator is running would be t mount a mud flap horizontally under the discharge front to back. That will defuse the air to the side instead of straignt down.
We used to use this trick on charter buses for the air being discharged from the A/C condensers and it work like a charm!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on January 07, 2022, 08:23:09 PM
Another solution to the dust blowing while the generator is running would be t mount a mud flap horizontally under the discharge front to back. That will defuse the air to the side instead of straignt down.
We used to use this trick on charter buses for the air being discharged from the A/C condensers and it work like a charm!
;D BK ;D
What was the horizontal mudflap mounted with? This might be handy under my OTR a/c fan to keep the dust down as we roll into a campsite.
My concern would be making it low enough to have adequate air flow from the fan, but then it seems it would be constantly getting in the way of ground clearance. Just hang it on chains? Cables?
Chain.
Leading edge tucked up a shade more, the rest hangs loose a couple inches.
Think of it as somewhat sacrificial, if it occassionally drags on something, well, it doesn't matter.
Conveyor belt material stands up well.
There are still places you need to shut it down, but they sure do make a difference to the cloud.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I made a wedge with sides under the genny fan discharge out of aluminum
tight at 1 end and 3 & 1/2 " down towards the outside edge.
works great as now all the hot air blows out the driver side with no dust storm
looking under the coach it is a lot higher than all the other things that hang down including the IFS front end
dave
Quote from: richard5933 on January 08, 2022, 03:12:32 AM
What was the horizontal mudflap mounted with? This might be handy under my OTR a/c fan to keep the dust down as we roll into a campsite.
My concern would be making it low enough to have adequate air flow from the fan, but then it seems it would be constantly getting in the way of ground clearance. Just hang it on chains? Cables?
Richard yes as BW mentioned hang it by chain we used 1" angle iron with the mud flap bolted to it on each end of the mud flap. Then we bolted short chains onto the angle and bolted it to the bottom of the bus front to back allowing it to droop in the middle. It doesn't matter if it drags the ground occasionally, it's not going to hurt it.
;D BK ;D
We tried unsuccessfully several times to quiet our Onan that has the Vacu FLo cooling system (air cooled). We were always going after exhaust noise and insulating the compartment for engine noise. Our recent & last attempt was the most successful. We added a horizontal duct at the hole in the generator floor that blew the Vacu Flo cooling air down to the ground which like has been said raised lots of dust BUT no more with the horizontal duct. It blows the air back. The inside of the duct has a sound attenuating thin layer of 3/8" fiberglass HVAC insulation that quieted the exhaust cooling air tremendously. So to our surprise of the total noise DBs created by: engine exhaust (added full flow muffler and a sound resonator) engine noise (totally closed off air inlet in genny compartment and lined the interior or the adjacent LP compartment with shag carpet & draw the air through that compartment) and exhaust cooling air was of the loudest of all three. We're festinated of the quietness of the genny now. Also added the exhaust system that puts it up over the roof line for congested rallys - works tremendous.
I like the " shag carpet "
dave
Quote from: sledhead on January 09, 2022, 06:48:27 AM
I like the " shag carpet "
dave
Thanks Dave, we have some on the interior too! It's very dated & we love it. Sort of like a "beam us up Scotty" attitude when we're in it...