Is this article correct? And how is it going to affect older buses registered as motorhomes?
https://www.rvtravel.com/california-mandatory-motorhome-emissions-testing/ (https://www.rvtravel.com/california-mandatory-motorhome-emissions-testing/)
Everyone knew it was coming ,I have friend that makes blowers for hot rods he cannot even buy a blower from 2 stroke in CA now he moved his shop here to Az,another friend has closed his injector shop in CA he could only sell injectors for 2 strokes out side of CA.CARB writes rules that are not even published for several years it sucks,they do not want a diesel engine in the state that was made before 2010,Carb has another rule if a diesel vehicle like a service truck say a 1 ton has 200,000 miles without DEF (was 300,000) it has to leave the state,those are going cheap with a crane, welder and air compressor I looked at one for 5G for sale here
Wow, the value of our coaches just keep going down, don't they?
Some of the nicest conversions in the country have CA license plates. I know. I've seen them at Quartzsite and other bus rallies.
Quote from: David Anderson on March 07, 2021, 07:12:03 AM
Wow, the value of our coaches just keep going down, don't they?
Yep you can buy 45 ft buses with series 60 in CA for 5 grand made in 2000
Looks like it was a good time to leave the state. Everyone will be registering in North Dakota now, LOL :^
Quote from: Dave5Cs on March 07, 2021, 07:41:54 AM
Looks like it was a good time to leave the state. Everyone will be registering in North Dakota now, LOL :^
Hard to give up the place where you lived but sometimes it has to happen CA is such a beautiful state to be so screwed up by politics
Quote from: luvrbus on March 07, 2021, 07:19:25 AM
Yep you can buy 45 ft buses with series 60 in CA for 5 grand made in 2000
Crap maybe I should give up on my 1980 Prevost and go for something 20 years newer. Dang I am hard headed will probably just bull through until it's up to my expectations.
Since most of our older buses don't have an OBD port, they will be doing a visual opacity test. "What if your motorhome doesn't have an OBD port that the test gear can hook up to? Then your rig is subject to an opacity test and a "visual inspection." The opacity test means your tailpipe emissions are analyzed. Essentially, how smoky is the stuff coming out of your tail pipe? If it's too smoky, you lose. Time for a repair."
And what is Good Sam, FMCA and others that we pay, doing about this???
No point belonging to a camping advocacy group, if they aren't advocating...
And they should have been on top of this before and during, not afterwards.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: richard5933 on March 07, 2021, 08:18:03 AM
Since most of our older buses don't have an OBD port, they will be doing a visual opacity test. "What if your motorhome doesn't have an OBD port that the test gear can hook up to? Then your rig is subject to an opacity test and a "visual inspection." The opacity test means your tailpipe emissions are analyzed. Essentially, how smoky is the stuff coming out of your tail pipe? If it's too smoky, you lose. Time for a repair."
LOL good old CARB electronic diesel buses don't OBD ports either tail pipe testing will pickup more than smoke FWIW
whats Good Sam and FMCA doing about it? Not a thing. Till California gets rid of the embedded political establishment, nothing will change. They have their own unwavering rigid agenda. We have 49 other states to move to. California is a place to just visit anymore. Sam Kinnison said something about deserts once thats applicable.
I guess HUGGY is exempt from traveling to California just like she is exempt from Canada.
Cannot cross the border with her armory. LOL
Right Don Fairchild. When are you coming back to NC and see something green.
uncle ned
On another forum several people said they thought this was a "scare" story and they could not see where recreational vehicles were mentioned in the 52 page draft regulations. They thought it was irresponsible for RVTravel magazine to publish this article.
Does anyone else see where rv's are mentioned?
Only place you get the true facts from CARB is from a emission testing station like my friend owns in CA,I read stuff there that is no where to be found on a CARB public published document
In regulation writing, both the inclusion, or the exclusion of words can spell disaster.
It all depends on the definitions of the words they do use.
Capturing all vehicles over a certain weight is the big capture, intended or not, that sweeps us up...
This is why our advocacy groups have to be more serious than fluffy reporting of the latest RV furnishing colours...
Maybe we could get the trucking associations to watch out for us as a side job...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I read it no where does it say RV's are exempt,like BW says it is in the wording
I wonder if the general exemptions provided to RVs owned for private use from the Truck and Bus Regulation would carry over to this set of proposed rules?
And if they are not, then here's a piece of the opacity test for older vehicles:
1.Smoke opacity test results must not exceed the applicable opacity limits as specified below.
f. 40% for any heavy-duty vehicle powered by a pre-1991 model-year diesel engine.
40% is a pretty low bar to meet, isn't it?
https://www.rvtravel.com/california-mandatory-motorhome-emissions-testing/?fbclid=IwAR1n1YGRReAp5n36a1idgkgz29tgimNkv9_9P5g2LbkLlHfCliBX-WXZCVc
This comes as no surprise to me. Maybe I'll just have to get a non-California domicile address? Montana, are you listening? How about having a Historical Vehicle registration? I know there are mileage limitations etc, but where there's a will there's usually a way.
Let's not lose too much sleep at this point. We had an old IH truck at work with a T444 engine that visibly smoked, and it still passed its annual opacity tests with flying colors.
John
Dang - stop it y'all bunch of Karens.
First, I fully admit that seeing this draft surprises me that it is written as a huge net to include virtually ALL diesel powered vehicles over 14,000 that fall into the following category.
clip from draft regulations
(a) Applicability
(1) This chapter applies to all non-gasoline on-road heavy-duty vehiclesoperating in California, including those registered for use in other statesand countries, and the owners and operators of such vehicles. (2) Exemptions – this regulation does not apply to:
- (A) A zero-emission heavy-duty vehicle;
- (B) Authorized emergency vehicles;
- (C) A tactical vehicle operated by the military;
- (D) For four (4) years from the time periodic inspections begin under
this chapter, when a new vehicle with a heavy-duty engine has been certified to meet the most stringent optional reduced NOx standard as defined in title 13, CCR, section 1956.8, for the specified model years.
ODB is the primary division between how testing and compliance is conducted. For the most part all the older diesels pushing our buses do not have OBD ports. I can't speak to how DDEC technology is technically classified and whether it fall under this category.
For those of us in the non OBD category, as pointed out earlier, the testing and compliance is how much visible smoke is admitted during their testing regime.
I have not idea how to do an initial self-assessment but following is the range of smoke they will be looking for. Given the range is 5% to 40%(on vehicles 1991 and earlier), you figure out where you fall.
I'm not using any sleep over this with respect to passing with flying colors, pun intended. What makes me sigh is CA is just looking to grab more dollars off residents and even y'all out of staters.
If you got a engine that smokes a fair amount, let common sense be your judge, then you should be concerned, irrespective how old. If you have a 1991 and newer, then go deep dive and figure out if DDEC is considered ODB. If not, then do the previous how smoky is my engine test. Otherwise, if DDEC does fall under ODB, then again, common sense, how clean do I think my engine is. If is runs really well, go back to regular scheduled programming, and put some popcorn money aside for the time the CA goons will be banging on your door for testing results and begging for some new fees.
Simple as that folks.
1. Smoke opacity test results must not exceed the applicable opacity limits as specified below.
- 5%foranyheavy-dutyvehiclepoweredbya2007or subsequent model-year diesel engine.
- 5%foranyheavy-dutyvehiclerequiredtobe equipped or retrofitted with a Level 3 VDECS, regardless of its diesel engine model-year.
- 20% for any heavy-duty vehicle equipped or retrofitted with a Level 2 VDECS, regardless of its diesel engine model-year.
- 20% for any heavy-duty vehicle powered by a 1997 to 2006 model-year diesel engine.
- 30% for any heavy-duty vehicle powered by a 1991 to 1996 model-year diesel engine
- .40% for any heavy-duty vehicle powered by a pre- 1991 model-year diesel engine.
Definition of ODB(60) On Board Diagnostics (OBD)" means any system certified to meet the requirements of title 13, CCR, sections 1968.1, 1968.2, 1971.1, or future OBD requirements adopted by the California Air Resources Board.
So long as they don't pull my rig into a giant freezer for a cold start, even my 60+ y/o rig can swing under 40% no problem. Keep in mind, they may be looking to clean up the roads and harvest some extra tax dollars, but they're not likely to throw away good tourism money by locking the lot of us out wholesale.
I'd like to agree but this state has no common sense, we are not Texas. Look how brutal the clampdown was on the diesel powered trucks some time ago. They created billions of dollars of expenses when they banned all the older two strokes off the road for any commercial use, then started even more clamping down on the versions of electronic song controls. The state does this because they can get away with it.
Quote from: richard5933 on March 07, 2021, 08:18:03 AM
Since most of our older buses don't have an OBD port, they will be doing a visual opacity test. "What if your motorhome doesn't have an OBD port that the test gear can hook up to? Then your rig is subject to an opacity test and a "visual inspection." The opacity test means your tailpipe emissions are analyzed. Essentially, how smoky is the stuff coming out of your tail pipe? If it's too smoky, you lose. Time for a repair."
I wonder if you added propane injection and enabled it during the test if you could automatically pass the visual opacity test?
Add throttle delay.
Makes no difference every diesel powered vehicle in CA prior to 2010 leaves the state or has to be upgraded to 2010 emissions standards when it reaches the miles CARB has set i document says 200,000 another says 300,000 miles they are going to get you 1 way or the other in time.We here in AZ are flooded with CA trucks and buses for sale just today I was offered a 2006 truck with a 3176 Cat engine and a Allison for 2 g's lol the tires are worth the 2 grand
Try one of these maybe someone will have a sense of humour and let you go if not there are other places to spend your money
The following is a letter that a member of another board (Escapees) received from the RVIA newsletter.
"By: RV Industry Association Staff
The California Air Resources Board (CARB) is developing a Heavy-Duty Inspection/Maintenance regulatory concept to make sure that non-gasoline powered vehicles greater than 14,000 lbs. operating in California (including vehicles registered out of state) have properly functioning emissions control systems. While this is only a regulatory concept right now, the intention is for this to eventually become a regulation that would essentially establish a smog check program for heavy-duty diesels. The new requirements being considered by CARB could have huge implications for diesel motorhome owners.
The rulemaking under development, which is mandated by Senate Bill 210 (signed into law in September 2019), will require owners of diesel motorhomes nationwide to obtain an annual certificate of conformity from CARB in order to operate their vehicles on California roads. The rule would apply to all motorhomes operated in California even, for example, motorhomes registered in Virginia or Vermont which travel into California on vacation. This is despite the fact that the legislative history of the new law is clear that motorhomes are not the intended subject to be regulated.
Along with the National Association of RV Parks and Campgrounds (ARVC) and the CampCalNOW RV Park and Campground Alliance, the RV Industry Association has sent comments to CARB on the potentially negative impact this proposal could have on RV owners and RV parks and campgrounds.
Many out-of-state owners would opt to vacation in other states if this draconian regulation were in place against all diesel motorhomes. The portion of the proposal which would allow a 3-day exemption from the regulation is also unworkable for the overwhelming majority of motorhome owners who would be considering California vacations, since very few motorhome trips into California are for three days or fewer.
Next up for the proposed rule is a workshop that will occur in late March. A full regulatory proposal is not likely to be sent to the full Board until near the end of this year, with an anticipated effective date in 2023. The RV Industry Association and our coalition partners will continue to work with CARB staff to develop appropriate provisions that will protect the public without being overly burdensome on motorhomes.
For questions, contact Mike Ochs, Director of Government Affairs, at mochs@rvia.org."
California? Their madness reaches far, Eh?
As the statement from RVIA says, this one might come back to bite them in the rear a little bit. Not sure they're going to do much other than aggravate the 1000s of RV owners that would normally venture into/through California over a year's time when they are met at the border with this news and expense. Hopefully their own tourist board will get on the sanity bandwagon.
Here's the direct link.
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/hdim/meetings/20201217_draft_hdim_reg_concepts.pdf (https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/hdim/meetings/20201217_draft_hdim_reg_concepts.pdf)
and the devil's den
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/heavy-duty-inspection-and-maintenance-program (https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/heavy-duty-inspection-and-maintenance-program)
and the full text
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200SB210 (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200SB210)
Govt Anaylsis
09/12/19- Senate Floor Analyses (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billAnalysisClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200SB210#)
09/06/19- Assembly Floor Analysis (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billAnalysisClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200SB210#)
Like lots of other places we've been in earlier times - enjoyed it and don't need to return. Heck seven years of my carpenters pension benefits come out of CA - from one end to the other. It was one of the greatest places I'd ever been. Unfortunately ever since the bus trips to AK - we feel that way about a lot of awesome places including some of the finest National Parks - just too many people anymore. Love it when we're north of the 1/2way point of Canada. Lots of space, very few people & very few regulation. That's our story & we're stickin' toit... Carry on.
Gonna be a lot of Tiny Homes on the market. ;D
"... the National Association of RV parks and campgrounds, the camp cal now RV Park and Campground Alliance successfully lobbied the California air resources board to amend a regulatory proposal that would have required out-of-state diesel motorhome owners to get a smog check done within 3 days of arriving in California..."
I misread the post. It appears that the regulation has now added RV motorhome onto the exclusion list. If so, all you wanting to drive your bus here are free from one more regulation.
CARB hasn't been all bad for CA at least the air is clean and you can see the mountains.Carb changes the rules everyday just don't go into CA with a smoking engine they can and do issues tickets.My friend George has a 4106 with big injectors and no throttle delay he stops here when going to visit his kids in CA,I close the air gap on his governor every year for him and it makes a dog out of the engine but he doesn't smoke and doesn't get the fix/repair tickets,CA 2 strokes engines specs are in a different world than the rest of the states
Don't quit Fred!
Combat the geniuses in California by doing something rebellious! Join me at Mansfield Ohio for 3 days end of August and visit with about 40 Flxible owners and watch the parade! Bound to be a few clouds of diesel smoke to inhale there! I'm taking my 1980 no DEF Prevost there with my 90 year old Father in Law (FMCA life member 4125), and there won't be a California emission Nazi within 1000 miles. I'll be in spot 41 at the campground.
Ted
Quote from: Tedsoldbus on June 03, 2021, 01:08:48 PM
Don't quit Fred!
Combat the geniuses in California by doing something rebellious! Join me at Mansfield Ohio for 3 days end of August and visit with about 40 Flxible owners and watch the parade! Bound to be a few clouds of diesel smoke to inhale there! I'm taking my 1980 no DEF Prevost there with my 90 year old Father in Law (FMCA life member 4125), and there won't be a California emission Nazi within 1000 miles. I'll be in spot 41 at the campground.
Ted
Temping, PM me details...
How does California treat repowers? My bus came with a 3208 but it has an ISM now with a data port. Are they smart enough to know to look for it, or would I just play dumb?
Dear Freds and others maybe interested:
Brian Santin . briansantin@gmail and 614-571-8092 is host of Loudonville Flx meet/parade. He can tell you how to register for the show and has flyer on events.
Best place to stay is mohicanadventures.com campsite, about 2 miles from town. Brian reserved spots but you have to call the place to get the discount. I am staying 3 nights and it is only $105 with tax thanks to Brian. But you have to call and tell them you are BCM member. Number is 419-994-2267. There are enough people bringing cars that I am not towing anything. Two have volunteered to get me/ father inlaw with scooter to the parade. You should come Freds! Gary will be there. You can renew your BCM membership!!
hope to see you there.
Following is the correspondence with CARB about the RV exemption on this new rule.QuoteFrom: "xxxx@ARB" <kxxx.yyy@arb.ca.gov>
Subject: Re: Heavy-Duty Inspection and Maintenance Program
Date: June 4, 2021 at 9:36:50 AM PDT
To: Don@xxx
Hi Don: Thank you for reaching out to us. You are correct that the Senate Bill 210 did not explicitly exempt diesel motorhomes from the heavy-duty vehicle inspection and maintenance program requirements. However, CARB is proposing to exclude out-of-state motorhomes (non-gasoline vehicles over 14,000 lbs. gross vehicle weight rating; Class C) in our current draft of the regulatory language. Motorhomes registered in California would still be required to undergo annual testing. We have spoken to others in the RV industry who have presented the same concerns as you and we are trying to accommodate that.
Our formal proposal is scheduled to be considered by our Board at a December 9-10 Board hearing. If approved, the heavy-duty vehicle inspection and maintenance program would phase-in starting in 2023, with the requirements for periodic testing expected to begin in 2024.
If you are interested in more information on the Senate Bill 210 Heavy-Duty Vehicle and Inspection and Maintenance Program, please see the HD I/M webpage at: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/heavy-duty-inspection-and-maintenance-program (https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/heavy-duty-inspection-and-maintenance-program). From this page, you can also subscribe to get email updates on our public meetings and when we release new information regarding the program.
Best Regards,
xxx yyy
Heavy-Duty Inspection and Maintenance Program | California Air Resources Board
Senate Bill (SB) 210 (Leyva; Chapter 298, Statutes of 2019) was signed into law by Governor Newsom on September 20, 2019, and directs CARB to develop and implement a comprehensive heavy-duty vehicle inspection and maintenance (HD I/M) program in consultation with the Department of Motor Vehicles and the Bureau of Automotive Repair. The full text of SB 210 is available from the California ...
ww2.arb.ca.gov
From: Don xxxx
Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 9:58 PM
To: <kxxx.yyy@arb.ca.gov>
Subject: Heavy-Duty Inspection and Maintenance Program
Hello,
I've come to learn about SB 210 2019 and implementing out of state testing for diesel vehicles over 14k pounds. RV diesel pushers were not shown explicitly in the exclusion list. Please consider enduring these are added to the exclusion list as California has always been a vacation destination and making a visitor entering the state to get a smog check seems uncalled for. There are plenty of other rules that will ensure that vehicles staying for any length of time in the state would need to go through the long established DMV regulations. There is no need to discourage visitors to the state nor subject them to unnecessary regulations when they are here for a brief time.
thank you
don xxx
Quote from: Bearmtnmartin on June 03, 2021, 11:10:16 PM
How does California treat repowers? My bus came with a 3208 but it has an ISM now with a data port. Are they smart enough to know to look for it, or would I just play dumb?
I'm no expert but I suspect much will hinge on how it is titled. If it is titled as a RV "house car" and it is pre 1990? then you'll probably get a pass.
I know for fact that the older 2 stroke buses that are converted and registered as a RV/house car in CA are exempt from all smog requirements.
Whatever the case, get your ducks lined up before heading to the DMV. If you are going to title in CA, the DMV will do a vehicle inspection. I have heard that CHP can do this too but mine was verified at the DMV. Also, I had a title and was doing a retitle to CA so might have skipped a couple steps. Good luck.
It said they would exempt class C RV's but most Bus Conversions are class A diesel pushers so that make more problems. FMCA and Escapees more than likely will get into this one and the politics of it to try and throw their weight into it too.
Again, note that the beauracrats tried to include everything from the start, as they have done before, and as they will again.
Which camper group do you support with membership money? And are they leading the fight, or waiting for things to go wrong?
The war of attrition, fewer members of the camping groups, less money for qualified observers and advocates, more focus on just keeping membership, and none on political activism...
Sound familiar?
DEMAND your camping membership funds political observation and lobbying for camping issues, or take your money elsewhere...?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Hopefully the wording is an error since other than super C rigs most class C are gasoline powered.
Also, I'm wondering if there is actually anything on a vehicle registration which states which class motor home it is? Mine just says 'motor home'. The terms class A, B, or C are more marketing terms than legal terms since there is not to my knowledge a legal distinction between them.
Well, the wording might be a bit unclear but remember to consider this whole issue is very specific about vehicles weighing more than 14,000 lbs. and diesel
quote direct " Heavy-duty diesel vehicles (14,000+ lbs.) are major contributors to California's air quality challenges."
BW talks about political watchdogging and some RV special interest group is watching and the exemption has been recognized they are not looking to go after the handful of OLD RV diesel vehicles.
One could argue that over time these same groups might watch and care less about us old 2-stroke conversions but my guess they will address all related issues that come up, no matter how old the RV. It'd be in their best interest to keep a wide net cast and scoop all that gets caught as it shows they are doing the work of the folks who pay to keep them fed.
Windtrader said,
"It'd be in their best interest to keep a wide net cast and scoop all that gets caught as it shows they are doing the work of the folks who pay to keep them fed."
Since when did politicians do the work of the people anymore? They get paid by the corporations not the people. That money just goes into their pockets... :^
So with that thinking maybe they want all those Diesels that won't pass to go buy new ones so they make the money on them and sell many more new RV's?
Quote from: Dave5Cs on June 07, 2021, 11:04:58 AM
Windtrader said,
"It'd be in their best interest to keep a wide net cast and scoop all that gets caught as it shows they are doing the work of the folks who pay to keep them fed."
Since when did politicians do the work of the people anymore? They get paid by the corporations not the people. That money just goes into their pockets... :^
So with that thinking maybe they want all those Diesels that won't pass to go buy new ones so they make the money on them and sell many more new RV's?
"Congressmen should wear uniforms, like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"
The comment was about special interests groups watching out for the interests of RVers such as the RVIA, RVxyz, not the government agencies. That is how RV diesel pushers got added to the exemption list. now back to regular programming.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on June 06, 2021, 09:45:22 AM
It said they would exempt class C RV's but most Bus Conversions are class A diesel pushers so that make more problems. FMCA and Escapees more than likely will get into this one and the politics of it to try and throw their weight into it too.
From One page back Hello? ;)
You not going get any help from FMCA they are to big in travel trailers now and the Escapees are mostly a full time group, to me camp ground owners are the best bet since they pay big dollars in taxes in CA
OK, I get the point is the specific class as in "C". I'll follow up and reply here with her response.
I'd be surprised if anything in the actual law specifies a class of motor homes, as in "Class C" since in most states there is nothing that legally separates a "Class C" motorhome from a "Class A" motor home.
Weight rating is a different story, as the registration shows that. Class? Not so much.
If I had a way to ask questions of someone official, it would be if the mention of "Class C" was just his way of trying to explain it or if it was referencing something actually in the bill.
Just sold my 1991 XL to a Fella outside Sacramento Cal. 2 weeks ago. He didn't have any problem getting it home from Texas where He flew in and picked it up. Of course mine didn't have a oil leak or smudge anywhere on the engine. Pretty clean with no smokie. Hope He'll be okay as he was a nice Gent.
Quote from: windtrader on June 07, 2021, 09:20:27 PM
OK, I get the point is the specific class as in "C". I'll follow up and reply here with her response.
You have the super "C" to Don they are all forward diesel engines built on truck chassis ,some states issue 2 titles for those like "toy hauler or Super "C "RV
Well I don't know about the rest of you'all but I think we will Just junk our Bus because of this maybe law down the road by this group of Political ne'er-do-wells stretching their importance which isn't much. Anyone want to buy it for $350,000.00. has good tires only 7 years on them and 10K miles, I think it was rebuilt according to the guy we bought it from 12 years ago but no paperwork or some but you can't read it because of water damage to the paper. Ran the last time we drove it to the field too. ;)
Quote from: Dave5Cs on June 08, 2021, 12:31:33 PM
Well I don't know about the rest of you'all but I think we will Just junk our Bus because of this maybe law down the road by this group of Political ne'er-do-wells stretching their importance which isn't much. Anyone want to buy it for $350,000.00. has good tires only 7 years on them and 10K miles, I think it was rebuilt according to the guy we bought it from 12 years ago but no paperwork or some but you can't read it because of water damage to the paper. Ran the last time we drove it to the field too. ;)
I wouldn't worry to much CARB changes from day to day .A guy here that owns a rock quarry had 5 loaders with 2 strokes CARB told him he could only have 1 in the fleet he is still running the 4 and 6-71 2 strokes
Here is the reply from CARB.
Quote[/size]Hi Don: I made a typo; I meant class A. I was trying to be clear and ended up not providing clarity at all! And you are correct that in our draft regulation text the legal distinction will be non-gasoline over 14,000 lbs. gross vehicle weight rating. We currently don't reference Class A for motorhomes. I hope that helps and I apologize for the confusion.
Best regards,
Krista Fregoso
Again we are not Class A like Richard said these classes are for selling SS RV's and we are Bus conversion Diesel Pushers......
And by the time that starts or before we will be registered in another state, LOL
Pretty much what I thought. It would make no sense for the law (or the exemptions) to mention any particular class of RV since that is not a legal definition.
This is what happens when people with little to no true understanding of an issue are put in charge of writing regs about it.
Think I might just register my '96 as an Historic Vehicle.
Jim
Quote from: Dave5Cs on June 08, 2021, 07:45:51 PM
Again we are not Class A like Richard said these classes are for selling SS RV's and we are Bus conversion Diesel Pushers......
And by the time that starts or before we will be registered in another state, LOL
LOL Prevost has been try to shed the class A and Bus name for years now,Prevost are always listed for sale as a class A,both Prevost and high end RV manufactures have a new class now called (Premium) we will see if that catches on
Have there been any updates to this mess?
I'm in CA and all I know is CARB is on the move! Recently either they ruled, or a law was passes in Sacramento which makes purchasing gasoline powered lawnmowers and other landscaping equipment illegal here in CA after the first of the year. That will apply to gasoline generators too.
Based on that, I can't imagine they will let old two strokes slide. At one time there was someone on the boards named Don Fairchild who has a method of modifying the two strokes to run clean mainly for the oilfields, but I don't see him around anymore. Windtrader is more knowledgeable on all this that I, so hopefully he will chime in.
Mike
I went up and read the law (SB 210) as it was passed and I could not find motorhomes as exempt. Anything 14K GVWR and diesel is already in the heavy truck and bus program now, so I have to think that this is aimed at diesel motorhomes registered in CA, and those of us wanting to travel to the Great State of California. I still have friends and family there so it is now on my radar. Maybe I missed something?
Maybe this is an opportunity to sneak in a few chainsaws or weed whackers in to pay the diesel bill to travel to CA.
Oh you guys always blow these things out of proportions thanks to a few on here. I lived in California and still have an address there for 58 years and they don't care if you are traveling from other states or through it. The only problem traveler need to know is buy fuel in other states if coming in or through California because it is very high there.
True the CARB is trying to outlaw some things and have for Commercial company trucks not personal vehicles (Yet). If you want to register a Bus conversion all they care about is a VIN check at DMV and that is only if it comes in from another state. If you live there and buy one then they don't care at present.
Its like taxes they are high there and that is why fuel is so high there too0. We are in Kansas right now and were surprised at how expensive food was here and then found out that they unlike California tax food at the grocery stores. Never had that before. Its always something.
Everyone compares other states to California because they think everything there is like Los Angeles, We up north call that the other state. Up north it is way more laid back and a few places have traffic but not like LA.
Where I lived we were 1 hour form the ocean and 1 hour from the mountains. Some of the best fishing in the world like Idaho. Lots of rivers and lakes.
I always laugh about a government entity regulating anything. Enforcement is almost impossible.
I own a painting business. Every painter I know got their undies in a bunch over the Lead Safe work practice.
Truth is there was no one to enforce the rules. It was a money grab. Everyone had to be certified to work on a project with lead paint. All of these certification firms popped up.
I never got certified...
My wife's family does stained glass. The big stuff. Catholic Churches all over the northeast mainly. Four generations. All glass in all those big panels are joined by that same toxic grey stuff, but nothing else works joining stained glass. Not meant as a political slam, they have told me that they endure the enviro Nazi inspectors and fines whenever the democrats are in charge. When republicans rule, they go away. Glad you were not invaded by the same guys.
Enough on that. This is about buses. For now, I still get a tickle when I fuel up and can ignore the DEF pump....
No worries on our old buses at this point. AFAIK there is no pending legislation that sweeps in our old buses. That boat already sailed when they did the massive extinction of the 2 strokes on commercial vehicles, and that took nearly a decade. I am almost certain the last of the ones that got extra time are done.
It is possible they could put spend our tax money to target us but there are so few of us they can put the hurt on a lot more people by targeting free fields. You mention CARB going after gardening equipment and that is true, trying to ban them all and force to batteries. I read somewhere that running a two stroke blower for an hour spews out pollution equal to driving a car a 1000 miles.
CARB has their folks chasing the auto and heavy truck folks to go to electric and fuel cells.
Just my take on CARB these days. I sleep fine and not worried about further restrictions on converted 2 stroke buses registered as house cars. If you have a newer bus outfitted with a 4 stroke, you might be unable to buy/register one in CA as CARB forces them to be sold out of state. DPF was required but some got exemptions so if something like that came out of a fleet you can't buy it.
It takes one a month to read all the CARB bs,some farmers could have 1 old engine that goes away Jan 2022
The safety for personally owned vehicles resides in the lobbyists who look out for us, and similar owners.
We need to actively make it known to Fmca/good Sam that we expect them to stand up for older unit owners, otherwise, why would we be members.
Everyone makes that email, it registers, if we wait for someone else, their bread and butter is new vehicle advertisers... they won't give a rats a$$ unless we remind them what we, the members, are expecting for our membership.
Also, the collector car folks are affiliated in the legislative wording. Personal vehicle or historical, regardless of size, same thing.
But if we don't support and encourage those who are representing our interests...
Sit there like a bunch of old a$$holes and losers in a coffee shop, complaining about stuff we aren't going to take action on...
Ours to choose.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Okay, I just sent an email to FMCA asking what they are doing to help us. If I get a response I will post it.
My buddy with a big class A showed me drone shots of attending the big FMCA gathering in Georgia this summer. I saw 4 older buses. Not sure they hear us anymore. Plethora of 5th wheels and a huge number of newer Class A rigs that perhaps comply with California - made up the majority.
I have to wonder how long a California fire fighter can cut fire line with a battery operated chainsaw? My neighbors Ryobi leaf blower lasts about 8 minutes on one battery and can maybe blow out candles. Changing times but still headed for Florida next week and happy about it. Just focusing on the positives. Like the word DEF still means: hard of hearing
lol
DEF something I mix with roundup to make it work better. On the weeds around my bus of course.
If CARB does come after the 2 strokes in RV's people that have CA plates maybe the most lucky bus nuts around.LOL CARB spent millions of tax payers dollars changing engines for Greyhound.
DaveC now you need the emission sticker for the year of the engine to register a bus in CA that came about 2 years ago
Listening to a 6-71 or a 8v71 droning up a long grade sounds better than the guitar intro in Stairway to Heaven! The smell of straight weight 40 delo leaking just adds to the pleasure. Kinda like the smell of pot at a stones concert at selland arena in the 1970's.
lol Clifford take your meds please? or have you been drinking again. They do not care about the year of your engine. That was only commercial. :^
I must be really bored. Did a data dive into the CA DMV vehicle records and put this report together. Interesting, so worthwhile, at least to me.
This is current as of Jan 1, 2020
Heavy duty vehicles registered
| CALIFORNIA Heavy Vehicle Total1,041,412 |
Tables below.
One shows total heavy diesel by make, 2007 and older.
The other shows total heavy diesel by all years.
Main point was to show how few our old buses are of the total. I'll take any bet that CARB has zero interest to target us directly or indirectly. We really are viewed as antiques at this point.
Quote from: s2mikon on December 05, 2021, 06:45:42 PM
Kinda like the smell of pot at a stones concert at Selland arena in the 1970's.
Hmmm. . . I never saw the Stones at Selland, but I did see The Beach Boys, Three Dog Night, Fleetwood Mac, and Garth. Because of the crowds, I remember parking at the spiral garage at Inyo & VanNess and walking over to the Arena for the Garth concert.
I think the Stones played at the Save Mart Center?
I preferred Roger Rocka's anyway - had season tickets there over 30 years, watched six-time Tony Award winner Audra McDonald grow up in that little theater!
Ah. . . memories. . .
Quote from: Dave5Cs on December 05, 2021, 07:06:52 PM
lol Clifford take your meds please? or have you been drinking again. They do not care about the year of your engine. That was only commercial.
Check it out big guy lol I am out of emmisions tags from the valve covers and I don't do meds :^:^
Quote from: windtrader on December 06, 2021, 12:43:41 AM
I must be really bored. Did a data dive into the CA DMV vehicle records and put this report together. Interesting, so worthwhile, at least to me.
Don you cannot replace the engine in the older buses without Carb destroying the the take out FWIW it is the same for any antuqie even boats,There are still 2 strokes in boats in CA and they are still giving grants to replace those.I have a ? why do they track diesel engines in CA
This is current as of Jan 1, 2020
Heavy duty vehicles registered
| CALIFORNIA Heavy Vehicle Total1,041,412 |
Tables below.
One shows total heavy diesel by make, 2007 and older.
The other shows total heavy diesel by all years.
Main point was to show how few our old buses are of the total. I'll take any bet that CARB has zero interest to target us directly or indirectly. We really are viewed as antiques at this point.
Quote from: windtrader on December 06, 2021, 12:43:41 AM
I must be really bored. Did a data dive into the CA DMV vehicle records and put this report together. Interesting, so worthwhile, at least to me.
This is current as of Jan 1, 2020
Heavy duty vehicles registered
| CALIFORNIA Heavy Vehicle Total1,041,412 |
Tables below.
One shows total heavy diesel by make, 2007 and older.
The other shows total heavy diesel by all years.
Main point was to show how few our old buses are of the total. I'll take any bet that CARB has zero interest to target us directly or indirectly. We really are viewed as antiques at this point.
Are the totals in the first table for commercial or for privately-owned vehicles, or for both? Just in the Crown Coach Junkies group I think there's more than 21 preserved or converted Crown buses in CA, and there are probably other Crowns in CA owned by non-CCJ members. Some CCJ folk have a lot more than just one bus! And that doesn't include all the preserved Crown fire trucks whose owners have a separate group.
Just wondering.
John
They may be hiding them with out of state registrations. I would.
Quote from: s2mikon on December 06, 2021, 11:25:31 AM
They may be hiding them with out of state registrations. I would.
I doubt that people in CA are asked to report vehilces if they notice the same vehicles driving day to day with out of state license plates,just the way it is there
Quote from: luvrbus on December 06, 2021, 06:30:19 AM
Check it out big guy lol I am out of emissions tags from the valve covers and I don't do meds :^:^
California does not do Smog checks on Private coaches that are older than 1987 diesels so not worried. Soon we won't be registered there anyway. Missouri doesn't care in Waynesville and a lot of other state so who knows, LOL
Quote
Just wondering.
John
From reviewing the stats, I'm thinking quite a few old buses are assigned as UNK, primarily because the clerks at DMV gave up or did not try hard to find the correct code for some oddball make when it was entered into the system; something like that.
I think this database is for current registrations and we know many buses sit more than on the road. But whether it is 10 to 100, the numbers are invisible in the grand scheme. It would have much more interesting to see the category of older than 2007 units, like pre 2000. the numbers must really plummet.
@Dave - right. if anything related to further restrictions on our old buses, more will just disappear from CA and some other lucky state will pick up a few coins for adding it to their DMV roles.
Regarding the generator ban, apparently it doesn't include diesel generators. Not sure if this was discussed much in this thread, but it seems appropriate to the conversation. Seems like what I just read shows that it is for spark ignition engines 25 hp or less.
Quote from: richard5933 on December 06, 2021, 07:06:38 PM
Regarding the generator ban, apparently, it doesn't include diesel generators. Not sure if this was discussed much in this thread, but it seems appropriate to the conversation. Seems like what I just read shows that it is for spark ignition engines 25 hp or less.
I've not followed that specific CARB attack but it follows where they are heading - ban all ICE gas engines on everything. The larger house generators are less affected as they are running on natural gas or diesel, not regular gas.
It is one thing to use batteries to run a mower or blower but can't run for days.
What is the product replacement strategy to fill that need? The new crop of battery-powered energy generators are not built to run for long.
UPDATE: Quick scan of the specific bill in the CA legislatureis what is stated above, just continuing the push to get all portable gas engines gone.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220AB1346 (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220AB1346)
They do make the assertion that alternative battery powered solutions are viable. Not sure about that. And why all the hoopla now, it was introduced two months ago.
But let's all stand and clap for PV panels and lithium house batteries - SILENCE! LOL
This is why voting is so important. I voted with my feet over 2 decades ago. I made the right choice.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on December 06, 2021, 06:23:04 PM
California does not do Smog checks on Private coaches that are older than 1987 diesels so not worried. Soon we won't be registered there anyway. Missouri doesn't care in Waynesville and a lot of other state so who knows, LOL
No one said anything about testing ,all I know for a fact is you cannot register a 2 stroke bus conversion from another state with out the emission year standard plaque on the engine.There is a young lady in Needles her dad passed away and she brought the 4106 in from New Mexico and cannot register it in CA till she installs CA camshafts and injectors so the bus has been sitting for over a year.It is a joke she has good running clean burning 6v92TA engine in the 4106
simple answer - if was working in NM, don't change reg to CA. Curious why an old bus had issues, something about the 6v92TA? 4106 was surely old enough to be exempt.
I see many commercial vehicles at auction that are stamped as out of state only sale. As you say, this has been going on for quite some time with the buses too.
Diesel generators may have already been dealt with in earlier legislation.
Any new truck with a generator, the exhaust has to be routed into a DPF, its own, or the big engine's, according to the trade press a few years ago now...
Same for the reefer trailer, and older units, same as trucks, banned from entering the state.
The challenge is watching all the other states, and their legislative wording accidentally, or purposefully, capturing RV, as they evolve into these matters.
Still waiting to hear from fmca...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: luvrbus on December 06, 2021, 06:30:19 AM
Check it out big guy lol I am out of emmisions tags from the valve covers and I don't do meds :^:^
So you are putting emission tags on vehicles that don't pass in California? :o
Quote from: Dave5Cs on December 07, 2021, 09:02:10 AM
So you are putting emission tags on vehicles that don't pass in California? :o
Nope I find the tag that matches that year of the engine and give to the person what they do with it up to them. All the tag says it is it meets the emmisions requirements of the year manufatured and where it is a CA engine or US standard engine lol even CA has to have their own Detroit.Look on the valves covers of your 6v71 it will have it.The tag is a joke none of those old engines are original,Ca now requires one when bring a MH or conversion into the state with a 2 stroke
Quote from: luvrbus on December 07, 2021, 09:25:24 AM
Nope I find the tag that matches that year of the engine and give to the person what they do with it up to them. All the tag says it is it meets the emmisions requirements of the year manufatured and where it is a CA engine or US standard engine lol even CA has to have their own Detroit.Look on the valves covers of your 6v71 it will have it.The tag is a joke none of those old engines are original,Ca now requires one when bring a MH or conversion into the state with a 2 stroke
When I had Jake Brakes installed on my 8V71 the valve covers were replaced with the tall covers. The mechanic made a point of removing the old plates to give me for remounting on the engine. He couldn't do it but seem to be encouraging me to do so.
The Blue plates.
Yup. Here are what mine looks like, complete with text about US and California laws.
I don't recollect seeing such tags on my bus. It was registered and titled in CO before I brought it into CA. The DMV inspector wanted to see the VIN, had a look around, not much into the engine compartment as i recollect. He did do a pretty thorough check over but my hunch is he was mostly comparing what was on the title with the bus. Then again his cap said DMV, not CARB cop
Yep same on ours. It was titled in Missouri when Charlie brought it to California and titled it before we got it.
Things have changed in the last 2 years in CA,I have friend Eric with a Eagle that lives in CA his bus is from Oklahoma they are dealing him problems to get his bus converted over to CA plates for over a year now,they found a way to crack down a little is all it is for
Very interesting. Details? Year of bus, stock/mod engine, seated or converted. We know newer ones can't even be in the state any longer and I thought the old ones (2 strokes) were clearly exempted. And we know the early 4 strokes had to have DPF added, then all got kicked out anyway.
Eric has a 1983 Eagle with a 6v92TA engine fully converted to a MH
Quote from: luvrbus on December 07, 2021, 01:50:31 PM
Things have changed in the last 2 years in CA,I have friend Eric with a Eagle that lives in CA his bus is from Oklahoma they are dealing him problems to get his bus converted over to CA plates for over a year now,they found a way to crack down a little is all it is for
Could a private (non-DMV) vehicle registration service in CA help him? I had one such company re-register my bus as a Motor Home recently because it had a CARB hold on it when it was an AUTO BU previously, and it was a quick easy process.
John
Just what is the hassle they are making for him? I'm pretty sure those specs should get an exemption.
There are specialty shops that do modifications then get through the BAR Referee and CARB regulations to bring non-CA cars into compliance. As you can imagine it is a lengthy and expensive project but it should not be needed in this case.
I was in Home Depot this morning. There were 2 gas push lawn mowers and 7 different brands of electric ones. Including a monster looking Dewalt. I have 2 acres so I have a small riding mower, but we know anything that runs on gas is the next target.
I say Nooooooooooooo! I think that since I now draw Social Security and am therefore officially deemed by the government to be old, I can claim the too old to change exemption! I am going to buy all the air and oil filters and blades I can find for my John Deere this weekend. Unless they stop selling gas, I can keep mowing with my dinosaur juice grass annihilator.
But all kidding aside I have a sick feeling in my stomach my bus will be harder to hide.
Quote from: Tedsoldbus on December 08, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
I was in Home Depot this morning. There were 2 gas push lawn mowers and 7 different brands of electric ones. Including a monster looking Dewalt. I have 2 acres so I have a small riding mower, but we know anything that runs on gas is the next target.
I say Nooooooooooooo! I think that since I now draw Social Security and am therefore officially deemed by the government to be old, I can claim the too old to change exemption! I am going to buy all the air and oil filters and blades I can find for my John Deere this weekend. Unless they stop selling gas, I can keep mowing with my dinosaur juice grass annihilator.
But all kidding aside I have a sick feeling in my stomach my bus will be harder to hide.
Just get some goats and be done with it. They'll even eat your Kudzu.
Goats will probably need to have a catalytic converter attached to deal with methane emissions.
Anyone here remember the GE electrak battery riding mowers from the 60's? Many buyers and most were parked never to run again in 2 to 3 years. Battery power just wasn't there yet. There is a following today for some still around. They had some unique features. Our neighbor had one. GE transferred production to Wheel Horse, then it went to someone else then again.
From the Truck and Bus Truck Stop page on the CARB Site:
Personal use Motorhome and RV are exempt.
Truck and Bus icon Truck & Bus Regulation
Regulation Text
PROGRAM
HOMEPAGE ►
Open reporting for 2022 is now available. Vehicle owners subject to the Truck and Bus and Solid Waste Collection Vehicle regulations can now update flexibility options for the 2022 compliance year in the Truck Regulation Upload, Compliance, and Reporting System (TRUCRS). Report or update compliance options before January 31, 2022 to avoid your vehicle's DMV registration being denied. Learn more about flexibilty options below.
Regulation Basics & Exemptions Learn More ▼
Diesel trucks and buses with a gross vehicle weight rating(GVWR) that are greater than 14,000 pounds (lbs), must reduce exhaust emissions by meeting particulate matter (PM) filter requirements and upgrading to a 2010 or newer engine model year (EMY).
The Regulation applies to:
Diesel vehicles with a GVWR greater than 14,000 lbs.
Privately and federally owned trucks and buses that operate in California
Any person, business, school district, tribal reservation, or federal government agency that owns, operates, leases or rents affected vehicles.
The Regulation does not apply to:
Vehicles fueled exclusively with gasoline or alternative fuelss
Public Agency and Utility Vehicles (Not Federal)
Drayage (Port or Rail) Trucks (Until January 1, 2023
Transit/Urban Buses
Personal use motor homes or recreational vehicles
More info on excluded vehicles ►
Another Link
https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/truckstop/tb/excluded.htm
https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/ElecTrak/ElecTrak.htm
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=300hp+ev+bug minute 24 comment is especially wild
911GT3 RS vs EV VW bug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6iGXL0Q4wc
first project when the new workshoip is done. lol