I'm staying at a KOA in North Little Rock, AR. Just receive my electric bill. ???
From Jan 27 through Feb 27 I used 2000KWH. :'( :'( :'(
At 13 cents a KWH that is $260.00. The highest in the park for the month, some prize.... ::)
Today I tested everything in the coach with a amp probe to see what each item was pulling.
More informaton: I was out of the park for two days. One week the temp. was down in the teens during the early morning.
My power cord to the coach seems to drop .22 amps.
Battery Charger for house battery .62
Rope lighting 1.46
TV 1.6
Front Roof Mount A/C with heat strip on 12.88 (has new heat strip)
Rear Roof Mount A/C with heat strip on 15.88
Space Heater 13.88
Microwave 13.14
Ref 1.4 - 3.0
Water heater,,,,,, oophs forgot to write this down
Of course not everything is on 24 hours everyday.
When it is cold, I run the two roofmounts and a space heater, But only at night, leaving one heater on during the day.
Question, does this sound out of line......Sounds high to me, but then again, I'm way over my head.
Thanks for the input.
Bill ???
Yes, The .13 a KHW seems high. The company I work for charges .08, I am on a co op and pay .11 and complain at that. I run my whole house on 700 KWH a month, but not electric heat. So maybe 2k is fair, not sure about the .13. Tom Y
I just checked my bill and I pay 0.055 / KWH, but ours is some of the lowest in the country (they like to ballyhoo about it). Our 3,500sf house used a little over 1000 KWH last month. Not electric heat, obviously... and the gas bill to run the furnace, WH, and dryer was pretty hefty.
At those rates and usage patterns it wouldn't take long to be paid back on a diesel heat setup. In the meantime, I'd give up on the heat strips and get a 1500 watt oil-filled heater from Wallyworld. They provide nice radiant heat when they get going and "swing" a lot less than forced-air elec. heat. They can also run at 700w or so and still provide heat.
BTW, you should call the elec. utility and get the rate to see how much KOA is upcharging your bill (if any).
HTH and good luck,
Brian B.
I had the highest bill in the park..... ??? I used much more power than other RV's, trailer, 5th wheels......
Why can't you use a propane heater in an RV? Fumes, hummm, but you use it in a house...... I have a huge propane tank.
???
Bill
"My power cord to the coach seems to drop .22 amps."
I got lost on this comment. I would expect a slight voltage drop in the cable, but a current drop? Always thought the current measured anywhere in a circuit has to be the same.
Maybe that's the problem. You have little amps spilling out all over the ground.
Bill,
I live in North Arkansas about 150 mi from LR. My electric bill for my three BR house for the same period was $75 for 637KWH or about 0.12/KWH including taxes. Our base rate is 0.073 for the first 500KW and 0.057 after that.
I have electric heaters in two bathrooms which are on most of the time and this includes my electric water pump. House heat is wood and sun.
The thing that shocks me is the 2000KWH, that is a bunch!!
We heat our 4104 with two small 1500W electric space heaters and don't use the AC heat strips, they make matters worse in my opinion. We usually use only one space heater at a time, especially at night, and use an elec mattress pad when really cold but LR is not that cold. It is 5-10* colder here.
Wow, you guys are living in kilowatt eden at less than .10cents. Down here in Texas where our great Aggie governor loves deregulation and all the PAC money that goes with it, the best I can get is .15cents. One thing about it, you sure remember to turn off every light you can find. Makes it tough in the summer when we hit 100 degrees, very costly to stay cool.
David
Those roof airs with the heat strips are just a complete waste of electric. Most don't have enough insulation in the metal
shrouds to keep cold in and heat out. Put that energy to creating heat directly rather than using it all to heat the great outdoors. You roofline was probably getting 90% of the energy and just radiating it away, Pushing the air around just dilutes what little heat you can get out of them.
Also if it was below 40 degrees outside and you have reverse cycle roof airs with heat strips you are just hemmoraging energy into the wind.
Baseboard heaters, Oil type radiator heat and spot heaters should keep you warm enough providing you have any insulation at all that is working.
Other than that, My coach can spin a meter if both roof airs and the water heater is on. Yup $260 a month during the summer is not all that hard to believe here in Florida.
If you use 8,000 watts when everything is on, you will be using a lot of power if left running for a month.
Oh... Guys, .13 cents per Kwh is not that rare.. If you figure the fuel charge, useage charges, taxes, Fuel recovery charges, Meter rental and combined on and off peak charges. Then factor in the fact that a campgound is "commercial" rate on power.
I am residential and mine costs .11 per khw with all that crock of charges added.
If I plug the bus in and run the air conditioning my power bill jumps another $200 a month.
Also. The normal desktop computer, monitor and printer can use up to $30 or more a month to leave on all the time.
so there goes the first $60 of my power bill right there..... ::)
I will be so glad to get out of Florida..... Cost of living and taxes now exceeds Income... Your Mileage may vary.....
My power cord to the coach seems to drop .22 amps."
With everything off in the coach, using a current probe, I'm reading .22 amps, on the power cord, which was a little of a surprize. Thinking I need a larger power cord.....
Bill
Bill, you can certainly run a properly-vented forced air propane furnace intended for RVs. They're about $600 for a 35k BTU. There's also ventless propane radiant heaters (they do create some moisture, and you have to crack a window for make-up air). http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-furnaces/olympian-wave-heaters.htm
Time to "cut the cord" on electric heat?? 8)
Keep us posted,
Brian
btw, 20-ish watts in your power cord could just be a phantom load on a clock or something, or it's simply under the measurement capacity of your device. I wouldn't worry about the tens of watts... but the 1,000s! ;D
:'( I bought a used furnace in Arcadia, haven't had the time (or all the material) to install it. Need a good baseboard heater and a few other items.
Keep the information coming.
Will try not running the overhead heat strips, and just use two space heaters.
If you don't hear from me tomorrow, I froze to death tonight.... :D
Bill
Bill:
The .22 amp reading on your power cord is not resulting from it being undersized. An undersized cord could cause a voltage drop because of the resistance of the small wire. But the current going into one end of the cord HAS to equal the current coming out the other end. Simply put, your coach is using the .22 amps for something inside.
It sounds like there is something else that is still "on" in the bus. At .22 amps that translates to only about 25 watts, so it is not a big load. Could be the power draw of a TV that is turned off but still plugged in. Or maybe clocks?
Certainly your high electric bill is not affected much by this drain, so you have other things to chase. I just don't want you rushing out to buy a new cord thinking it will save you the .22 amps.
WEC
Up here in NJ
Electric- 13 cents per KW
Nat Gas- 25.50 per cubic ft.
Diesel- 2.76 gal
Gas- 2.59 gal
Knowing you pay the most for everything- "PRICELESS"
Nick-
What Nick doesn't tell you is a refrigeration tech in NJ get $500/hr!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
TOM (retired refrigeration tech in MD, only $200/hr :'( )
Nick:
I got a chuckle out of your post, but you get no pity from us folks on the west side of the Delaware River.
My latest electric bill shows $0.1483 per KWH. (thank you PECO)
Gas and Diesel prices vary from station to station, but as a rule your NJ prices tend to be 10-15 cents a gallon less than what I pay in PA. Everytime I visit Luke, I make a point of tanking up before I cross the bridge.
Of course a primary reason for the price difference between NJ and PA is tax related. Take a look at the attached file which shows a breakdown of the gasoline and diesel taxes paid in each state. Everybody from PA, let's all chant together: "We are No. 1! We are No. 1!..." :'( :'( :'(
Bill, try unplugging your shore cord at the coach. If you are still reading 220 ma, then your current probe is probably defective and not returning to zero.
If that is not the problem, then I suspect there is a light bulb on somewhere out of sight. I had a similar problem on an old car I was restoring one time, and it was the light bulb in the glove compartment not going out when the compartment was closed. What a bitch to find.
Richard
Quote from: Kwajdiver on March 05, 2007, 08:54:09 PM
My power cord to the coach seems to drop .22 amps."
With everything off in the coach, using a current probe, I'm reading .22 amps, on the power cord, which was a little of a surprize. Thinking I need a larger power cord.....
Bill
New Hampshire is 14.95 cents/KWH. When I lived there and was working on my bus, I found it cheaper to buy diesel for the genset than run the bus AC from grid power. The Dometic fridge on 110VAC, which is nothing more than a dead short (heating element) like the heat strips, cost over $150 to run for one month. It wasn't long after that I hooked up the propane to the fridge.
Ross
As others have said, something in your coach is drawing power. It ain't the power hose.
Mine draws about the same amount and call me crazy, but I'm now believing that GFCI outlets themselves draw power. I have five of them, and haven't yet bothered to unwire them to verify this, but with everything unplugged inside and outside I still get about that amount of draw.
I think they have a relay inside each which seems to stay energized whether the GFCI is 'tripped' or not.
Hmmm...
Like others have said also, though, your big challenges lie elsewhere in the big power hogs.
As to the current draw... automatic transfer switches have large contactors in them. Mine defaults to the generator, so when the power cord is plugged in, the contactors are drawing a bit of power, but I don't know how much.
David
Quote from: WEC4104 on March 06, 2007, 06:10:45 AM
Nick:
I got a chuckle out of your post, but you get no pity from us folks on the west side of the Delaware River.
My latest electric bill shows $0.1483 per KWH. (thank you PECO)
Gas and Diesel prices vary from station to station, but as a rule your NJ prices tend to be 10-15 cents a gallon less than what I pay in PA. Everytime I visit Luke, I make a point of tanking up before I cross the bridge.
Of course a primary reason for the price difference between NJ and PA is tax related. Take a look at the attached file which shows a breakdown of the gasoline and diesel taxes paid in each state. Everybody from PA, let's all chant together: "We are No. 1! We are No. 1!..." :'( :'( :'(
All Right!!! We're number one and have no roads to show for it. The state has added about 50 miles of new road in the last 40 years. We are getting a new bridge as a public/private project; the company builds the new bridge and the state gives them the exsisting bridge and the company collects tolls on both. They have been building this bridge since 2000 and it maybe completed late this summer but the company is making noises about another year, it will probably come in at about 1 billion dollars. Mean while a private company in France built a bridge that is a little longer, higher and the public retained ownership of the exsistng roadway which they can use if the tolls get to high. The bridge in France started in 2001 and was done in 39 months at a cost of about 350 million.
http://bridgepros.com/projects/Millau_Viaduct/
As for the 25 watts the TV and microwave have computers and clocks in them that are running even when the units are off. The only real way you can check for useage ia to diconnect everything or pop your master breader off so there is no way to have any load on the buss. Jerry
I made it through the night..... No overheads, just two space heaters. Going to check the draw on two space heaters v. two roofmounts.....
When the cord is disconnected, the meter goes to zero. Okay,,,, the TV and Home Theater System are the .22 in an off position. Both turned on pull 2.0 amps.
Two space heaters, pull 23.4 amps
Two roof mounts on heat 26.9 amps
Two roof monuts on high cooling 6.1 amps
Can someone tell me what their overheads pull on heat?
Comes down to, my bus is a power hog..... During the winter.... :-[
Next question, how much fuel does a gen set burn in an hour?
Thanks for the input, keep them coming.....
Bill
2000 KWH or 2 megawatt hours / month
equals about an AVERAGE of 23 amp continuous power
2000kwh / 30 days per month / 24 hours per day / divided be 120 volts = approx 23 amps (average continous)
based on your post - running one space heat during the day and both rroftops at night
That could be correct ??
Pete RTS/Daytona
We just finished a 10 day dry camping trip. No AC or heat but running the 8KW, 3 cylinder Kubota powered PowerTech generator to keep house batteries charged, water heater and occasional microwave, we run the generator 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening. We burn approx 1 gallon of fuel per day. Of course, we would use more if we were consuming more power. If I remember correctly, PowerTech chart for our 8 KW shows an average fuel consumption of .3 GPH at 25% load, .5 GPH at 50% load, .7 GPH at 75% load and 1.1 GPH at 100% load. I don't have the chart in front of me but these numbers should be pretty close. Jack
Jack,
If I average a 50% load, I would use .5 gph. .5X24= 12 gallons a day. 12 gallons x $2.50 a gallon for fuel = $30.00 a day. That times 30 days = $900.00 monthly in fuel...... Makes the electric power seem cheap.
At .3 gallons an hour that would be $540.00.......
::)
Bill
Quote from: Kwajdiver on March 06, 2007, 03:38:07 PM
Two roof mounts on high cooling 6.1 amps
Bill, keep in mind that your compressors were surely
not running when you tested the rooftop units' draw under cooling. Must have been fans only. When the compressors are on, they'll pull almost 20a each. It's probably not hot enough where you are to cycle the compressors on.
A/C loads are even higher than those of electric heat.
HTH,
Brian
Bill, why would you run a genset 24 hours a day. You are not in it for several hours per day are you?
Brian, my rooftops run about 11 amps while the compressor is running.
Richard
Brian, That is true.....thought that was low.
I wouldn't run the gen set 24 hours, unless it was really cold. Just throwing some numbers out there.
Bill
Thought,
All theese RV A/C manufactors have not jumped on the band wagon yet with the new DC compressors for Air conditioners.
I wonder why.?
I think I should test one in a roof top. Hummmm?? ??
The equipment now exists in residential systems we sell. The compressors are DC and are able to be ramped down [variable speed]
at night time for high efficency. The speeds very from 900 rpm to 3600 rpm. I will have to do some research because the compressors
are made in japan and are still the "scroll rotary" type. So they can be mounted Horrizonal in our units.
This could be the answer we need for our conversions to be able to boon dock over night without the gen running and still have A/C.
Nick-
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on March 07, 2007, 06:32:56 AM
I will have to do some research because the compressors are made in japan and are still the "scroll rotary" type.
And we anxiously await the results of your research!
Nick,
I have been wondering the same thing for sometime. Super efficient DC motors have been around for some years now; why aren't they showing up in these applications? Maybe too much money invested in current designs to throw it out. Hope you can find some answers.
Nick, what about using a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD)?
Several years ago I put one on the blower motor for my home A/C and increased the frequency up to about 70 hertz. definitely improved the amount of air flowing thru the system. I do not see why you could not only slow down the compressor as well as the blower fan to reduce energy consumption.
Richard
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on March 07, 2007, 06:32:56 AM
Thought,
All theese RV A/C manufactors have not jumped on the band wagon yet with the new DC compressors for Air conditioners.
I wonder why.?
I think I should test one in a roof top. Hummmm?? ??
The equipment now exists in residential systems we sell. The compressors are DC and are able to be ramped down [variable speed]
at night time for high efficency. The speeds very from 900 rpm to 3600 rpm. I will have to do some research because the compressors
are made in japan and are still the "scroll rotary" type. So they can be mounted Horrizonal in our units.
This could be the answer we need for our conversions to be able to boon dock over night without the gen running and still have A/C.
Nick-
I found a company who handels a compressor that fits our needs.
I wish I had more time right now to study this, but I'm jammed up with my customers.
I'll supply the link and the co. Maybe one of you can do some reading on theese variable comps.
Then I can easily come up with a prototype.. It looks like theese compressors can run from 9 to 30v's DC. Thats great!
It looks like a 9400 comp will put out 14,000 btu's. and of course needs a controller.
http://www.masterflux.com/ I'm gona start a new thread with this post..Don't want to steal other topics...
Nick-
Here's the one D.C. air conditioner company that's been around a while...
http://www.dcairco.com/
Thought you would be interested....
Quote from: Buffalo SpaceShip on March 06, 2007, 08:33:33 PM
Quote from: Kwajdiver on March 06, 2007, 03:38:07 PM
Two roof mounts on high cooling 6.1 amps
Bill, keep in mind that your compressors were surely not running when you tested the rooftop units' draw under cooling. Must have been fans only. When the compressors are on, they'll pull almost 20a each. It's probably not hot enough where you are to cycle the compressors on.
A/C loads are even higher than those of electric heat. Brian
FWIW, one of my Dometic heat pumps (15K AC, 12K heat) pulls 11A to 12A on cool with the compressor running, and 15A when the compressor's running in heat cycle. Now I don't understand this factoid, but I've got watts, amps, cycles, etc monitor and that's what it is. There are no heat strips in these rooftops. What I expected to be a large start surge doesn't seem to exist...it cycles on and off without problem. I'm acutely aware of such power use due to my 30A service. Obviously, the two heat pumps in heat mode use the entire power availability. Cooling leaves a litte headroom...T's hairdryer will suck that right up. Terri hasn't quite figured the "power management" gig out yet.
Some day I'm gonna add an additional panel in order to utilize 50A service when available. Split the ACs, use only the rear AC on one leg. Rest of coach on existing 30A system. Use an adaptor if only 30A. No different from what I'm doing now. I frequent a lot of older campgrounds that don't have 50A service. That's the rationale for the 30A system. LP makes up the difference.
And, it made the generator install much easier. But the capacity to use 50A is going to happen soon...maybe next year. After my little window awnings that I just received today are installed. ;)
I ordered a tube of various moulding for myself and another busnut, and FedEx managed to drive a forklift over the tube. Driver stands there and sez he'll make a claim and that I owe him $91 bucks for freight. Reckon that happened? Not! >:( Some of the moulding was gutter/awning track which was damaged. Found that the A&E window awnings came with awning track in the tubes. Cool.
Sorry for hijacking the thread.... ;)
JR
Guys and Girls,
Thought I would bring this subject back to the foreground. When I started this, I was in Little Rock and cold. Now, I'm in Phoenix and HOT.
Richard, AKA DrivingMissLazy ask, why would I run the genarator 24 hours a day? When it 90 degees at sunrise, 100 by 10am, then it really gets hot, you have to run the gen 24 hours so the air can keep up with the heat. Inside the coach would reach 110 by four. Turning both A/C on will not cool down the coach.
This is why to run the gen 24 hours. I believe my gen is using more than a gallon an hour. Since I've moved to the "pole", it's cheaper, I have power 24/7 and it's cheaper.
Bill
We have found that if it is hot or cold and we have to use the generator to keep us bearable, it's cheaper to find a place with utilities. When we boondocked with the generator running 16 hours a day, 7.5 Onan, we used at least the $26 a day most places charge with hook ups.
The Oil space heater does the best job of keeping us warm and using the least amount of electricity.
Don and Cary
GMC4107
Bill - If you don't have awnings, they can be a great help in hot weather. It is amazing what the difference is when you an keep the sun off the glass. We have Low-E, dual pane, reflective windows in our bus; supposed to cut the heat gain a lot. Pulling out the awning makes a HUGE difference in how much and how fast the bus heats and what it takes to cool it. I need to order up the rest of the window awnings; I am behind on this summers bus improvements.
HTH,
Craig - MC7 Oregon
I can confirm Craig's comments. I too have dual pane, reflective glass windows, and the awnings make a huge difference in heat coming in to the coach. I have front to back awnings on both sides, and mostly I don't need them, but when I do, Very happy to have them.
Do any of you guys know a good (and possibly cheap) supplier of window and big awnings? Makes/ models to consider/ avoid??
Thanks!
Brian B.
Zip Dee 800-338-2378
Girard Don Mollers (west coast) cell phone 949-279-1069
not cheap
The lateral arm type are the cadilac of awnings, very nice, electric motors, no side arm supports to run your face into. but very very pricey.