I have a Powertech 8CSI (enclosed 8KW) generator with serious voltage issues. Even with a brand new regulator the voltage will be 127 volts at no load and drop below 110 volts with minimal load. Would you just replace this generator, or still try to fix it? It has a Marathon pancake head with brushes.
The back story is I take my bus out on the Blackrock Playa every year (home of Burning Man). The soil is a very fine highly alkaline dust like talcum powder. The drive across the Playa generates huge clouds of dust. I used to run the generator while driving through the dust so the generator probably ate a ton of dust. I have had to replace the brushes at least once from the dust. (I no longer run the generator during the drive in.)
One suggestion I got today is that the slip rings might be dirty. I talked to Powertech support today and parts are getting scarce for this generator. No more brushes available even though Powertech could order me a new generator head for around $3,000. I still have a set of brushes as I ordered multiple sets just in case.
IF you go for a new head, switch to brushless. But for 3 grand, I dont know, maybe get a new outfit, or maybe itll get you several hundred hours of use.
Sounds like slip rings to me too. How about replacing the head with a brushless?
The generator is in a sound enclosure. A brushless generator end is too long for the enclosure. The current generator end is only about 10" long.
I talked to Marathon about a replacement head a few years ago and they said the part number was special for Powertech.
Have you talked to Wrico about a replacement head? The one I got from them was quite short and worked great. It was much smaller than the one it replaced.
I believe Wrico uses Mecc Alte generator heads. Mecc Alte has a head that is 11" long.
I'll contact Wrico tomorrow.
That's what we got - the 13K version and I couldn't have been happier with it.
Of course, if you're replacing the head you'll probably have to reconfigure the engine controls and auto shutdown for things like low oil pressure and high temp. I did those using Murphy Switchgauges.
Made my own panel and mounted everything to the control box that came with the new head. Worked like a champ. You can see how small the 13K head is in this photo.
Though you had a Kohler, but maybe the one pictured was on the 4106?
Quote from: chessie4905 on October 02, 2020, 03:49:36 AM
Though you had a Kohler, but maybe the one pictured was on the 4106?
Yes and yes.
That was the generator on the 4106, and it did have a Kohler head on it prior to the transplant. The main reason I switched was mice destroyed the control box. It was basically the same generator that I have in my current bus, the 4108, which is still running the Kohler head on it.
Saying that reminds me that if the control box on the Powertech is in good condition, it
might be possible to use it again to control the engine after the head transplant.
That was my thought, but he should take the generator to a place that specializes in this work. Not all of them charge outrageous prices. To bad he doesn't live in PA. There are some Mennonite outfits that are good at that work.
When I ordered the replacement head from Wrico it arrived all set up with a flex plate adapter and ready to bolt directly to the engine. The head install was easy and it was ready to make electricity as soon as I got the engine going.
Nothing really too complicated in setting up engine controls either, if needed. The complications come from tying things to the existing setup in the coach so that the interior controls/gauges will continue to function. But, that's not that difficult either.
Anyone able to keep an old bus running can do this with a little research.
I have re-headed 3 generators with new ones from Central Georgia Generator. Good people, reasonable prices (about $1300 for a 13KW brushless head) and they back their products. Lots of people on the Wanderlodge board have used them.
TOM
Quote from: chessie4905 on October 02, 2020, 05:21:00 AM
That was my thought, but he should take the generator to a place that specializes in this work. Not all of them charge outrageous prices. To bad he doesn't live in PA. There are some Mennonite outfits that are good at that work.
I talked to a place yesterday about fixing the generator head. One of the issues is they want the generator removed from the bus. They also recommended a second place that could do the work. It takes a forklift to get the generator out and it is hard for me to find someone with a forklift.
I think it makes more sense to replace the generator head since I have found them for less than $2,000. I would probably still need to remove the generator to change the head.
Quote from: richard5933 on October 02, 2020, 04:03:06 AM
Saying that reminds me that if the control box on the Powertech is in good condition, it might be possible to use it again to control the engine after the head transplant.
I don't believe there is anything wrong with the engine controls on the Powertech. They use a small ECU to control the engine. I think the governor is mechanical, but not sure.
The engine controls might be the hardest part of the head swap if I had to redo the engine controls.
Can't the slip rings be cleaned or turned? Seems like there should be enough copper there to take a light cut and restore them.
Jim
I talked to Justin at Wrico and a new head is right about $2,000. He originally was saying I should try to find a different regulator, but after I explained the head has brushes he said a new head is a better option.
After talking to Justin a second time it seems Powertech did everything on the cheap. He said the head they used is cheap and he thinks they probably used a less expensive industrial engine instead of a generator ready engine. I am contemplating if I just replace the whole generator, or take a gamble on a new head.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on October 02, 2020, 08:53:03 AM
Can't the slip rings be cleaned or turned? Seems like there should be enough copper there to take a light cut and restore them.
I'm not convinced the issue is as simple as bad slip rings. I would still have the issue of regulators that are easy to kill at $370 each. I am going to look at the generator again this weekend.
I have an old email from Powertech that states if I disconnect the brushes from the regulator and apply 12 volts I should get 100 volts AC from the unit so I am going to try that.
If the contact between the slip ring and brush is less than perfect you won't get full amperage and the voltage will drop under load. Often slip rings will get a groove worn in them and the corners of the new brushes are all that will hit until they run long enough to wear in. That will cut your output way down. Any foreign material on the rings can have the same effect. Before you go further you should check your brushes to see if there is a wear pattern showing full contact across the face.
Jim
Quote from: belfert on October 02, 2020, 09:13:57 AM
I'm not convinced the issue is as simple as bad slip rings. I would still have the issue of regulators that are easy to kill at $370 each. I am going to look at the generator again this weekend.
I have an old email from Powertech that states if I disconnect the brushes from the regulator and apply 12 volts I should get 100 volts AC from the unit so I am going to try that.
Brian, check PM.
I called a local truck repair place I have dealt with before and they will take the generator out for me with their forklift and put it on my trailer. I can then work on it a lot easier.
Maybe one of these to do it. I imagine the fee build up would pay for it. They make a 2 ton version also for a little more money. On sale at times.
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-capacity-foldable-shop-crane-61858.html?_br_psugg_q=engine+hoist
We bought a 2 ton Delco Remy like new used similar to that HF for $150. Worked great on the transmission R&R.
I don't think an engine hoist would have enough clearance on top to lift the generator out of the bus. I think I could spend no more than the cost of a engine hoist to have the generator taken in and out by a forklift.
I realized I have a guy with a skid loader coming by on Friday. I am trying to find out if he has forks he can bring to get the generator out and into my garage.
Engine cranes can be jerry rigged to pick up from underneath with some safety minded ingenuity.
Fork lift is the best way they were design for a fork lift,no way to use a lift than I have seen,that little CAT engine is every bit as good as a Kubota
Quote from: belfert on October 03, 2020, 08:43:32 AM
I don't think an engine hoist would have enough clearance on top to lift the generator out of the bus. I think I could spend no more than the cost of a engine hoist to have the generator taken in and out by a forklift.
I realized I have a guy with a skid loader coming by on Friday. I am trying to find out if he has forks he can bring to get the generator out and into my garage.
For future reference around here skid steers rent for around $200 a day w/ forks, bucket, auger or whatever attachments you desire. (1 attachment free w/rental an additional for an extra fee each)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on October 03, 2020, 10:01:23 AM
For future reference around here skid steers rent for around $200 a day w/ forks, bucket, auger or whatever attachments you desire. (1 attachment free w/rental an additional for an extra fee each)
That might be the best way to get the generator back in the bus after I work on it. It looks like it would be right at $200 after taxes and fees. I would need to use the bus to pick up the Bobcat. For getting the generator out it makes sense to pay the extra $50 to $75 to have the guy do it who is already coming out for another project.
I am paying someone for the skid steer work on Friday instead of renting a skid steer because the project requires a really large skid steer. The only place that rents a really large skid steer I could find in 2017 required the renter to supply a trailer. This guy has a large skid steer that is big enough for the work.
I have a 10kw Powertech with a Marathon brushless alternator-big. I have 1,800 hours and zero problems. Brushless is the way to go. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: richard5933 on October 01, 2020, 07:12:45 PM
That's what we got - the 13K version and I couldn't have been happier with it.
Of course, if you're replacing the head you'll probably have to reconfigure the engine controls and auto shutdown for things like low oil pressure and high temp. I did those using Murphy Switchgauges.
It looks like the current engine controls should work so long as I feed load and neutral from the head to the ECU for voltage sensing.
I talked to Wrico about getting the 10KW generator head. My HP is slightly low for 10KW, but I hope I can get a bit more than 8KW out of it. I need to pull my currrent head off to figure out the right SAE size to order. The cost should be about 1/3 of a new generator. I think it will cost me between $2,500 and $3,000 all in with some new wiring, misc parts, and costs to get the generator in and out of the bus with a forklift.
Speak with CAT and see if engine can be tuned for 10kw, it depends on the manufacture but most 8kw and 10kw heads are the same just a difference in engine hp
see if the 10kw version of your engine is same cu. in. If so, just fuel upgrade.
All he needs to do is enter his model number on a Cat site and it will give him the HP range all diesel engines have a KW rating and Cat will have the rating on a tag that you never can read,I took a 12v92 from 650kw to 750kw with a setting on the DDEC
I found the manual for the 10/12KW version of the same basic generator. My CAT engine is 15.8 HP and 69 cubic inches. The CAT engine for 10/12KW is 19.8 HP and 91 cubic inches.
Maybe I am better off with the 8KW head.
has an 8 mostly fit your needs?
Quote from: chessie4905 on October 04, 2020, 07:09:36 AM
has an 8 mostly fit your needs?
Not if I want to run three A/C units, an electric water heater, and an electric refrigerator. It has been a number of years since I have been able to run a full load due to constantly fighting issues with low voltage and popped circuit breakers from the low voltage increasing amp loads.
If I was starting over with a new generator I would go at least 10KW and probably 12KW.
Well, there you go. Spring fo r a new setup.
Quote from: chessie4905 on October 04, 2020, 08:25:04 AM
Well, there you go. Spring fo r a new setup.
Are you saying get a whole new generator? I would much rather fix this one for 1/3 the cost even if it couldn't run everything at once. I'm talking $10,000 plus weeks of work to install a new generator. My current generator is enclosed and the new one would required building out some sort of generator compartment that will take a lot of work. I might have to also figure out where I could put a remote radiator.
I was initially resigned to buying a new generator until I found out that Mecce Alte has a pancake generator head that would fit. My understanding prior to that was that nobody but Marathon made a generator head short enough and I didn't want another Marathon head. It would take some time to replace the generator head, but probably not as long as it would take to build out a generator compartment.
With my luck I would probably end up with a new generator that overheats going down the road, or is loud enough to wake the dead in the next state. My first used Onan generator I installed could wake the dead in the next state and vibrated so bad the bus would have shaken apart. I asked Justin at Wrico about an enclosed generator and he said to get a Cummins Onan if I want enclosed.
Onan is not the only enclosed generator for a RV a advertiser here EPS has a enclosed generators but they are not cheap
Quote from: luvrbus on October 04, 2020, 10:51:04 AM
Onan is not the only enclosed generator for a RV a advertiser here EPS has a enclosed generators but they are not cheap
I will have to call them tomorrow, but probably out of my price range. Some of the new enclosed generators are a lot longer than mine and won't fit in my bay. That is a big part of why I was looking at open generators.
Wrico and I believe Martin Diesel are also advertisers here, not just EPS.
Can your engine series be uprated to higher horsepower? With increased pump output?
61 to 91 cubic inches is a big jump for 5 hp,the C1.5 CAT is a 91 CI engine and they can produce 40+ hp from a 3 banger and I never saw one set at 19hp,the C1.1 is 68 CI and produces 20 hp
Do they list an 8-10 cat somewhere?
This is a Perkins engine painted CAT Yellow and given a CAT model number. Mine is a CAT 3011C. The CAT that Powertech used for the 10/12KW models is a 3013C. I'll have to get the Perkins model number off the engine. (It has both a CAT and Perkins data plate.)
If the 10kw head is roughly the same price, and will fit, go with that. It won't make a noticeable difference on efficiency and may give you that extra production if the engine can drive it. Most military generators have larger gen heads than the engine can drive and I was told that is for reliability, not pushing the windings to the edge of their capacity.
Here is a photo of the Perkins data plate.
I think the extra cost of the 10KW head is maybe $200 if that.
Okay, would you guys buy a 10K generator head for my CAT/Perkins engine for about $2000 plus shipping, or get a new 12KW generator for about $9,000 shipping included? I have 15.8 HP engine and WRICO runs a 17.8 HP engine on their 10KW generators.
The background is I have three 15K BTU rooftop A/C units, an electric water heater, and a 15 CF household fridge along with a battery charger. I only had two A/C units when I bought the generator. Also, I thought an 8KW generator would be plenty for even three A/C units since the total load is only around 5,000 watts. I wasn't aware at the time of the compressor starting load and how much larger a generator is required to handle that.
The Powertech generator is coming out on Friday. I either put it in the garage to change generator heads, or get rid of the Powertech generator by selling it or whatever.
New head, easy starts on the ac's, set up the water heater to not turn on when all three ac's are on or the one you can leave off if you need hot water.
3-15,000 btu units will always be a problem for a 8kw unit ,in hot weather and high altitude they become a 6.5 or a 7kw in a hurry Cummins (Onan) has a site to show you numbers on how heat and altitude affects a generator
Quote from: chessie4905 on October 04, 2020, 06:35:39 PM
New head, easy starts on the ac's, set up the water heater to not turn on when all three ac's are on or the one you can leave off if you need hot water.
I bought easy start units for my A/C units last year and got one installed. What happened last year is the A/C unit refused to run because the voltage was dropping too low. Last year's voltage issue turned out to be a loose neutral and most, but not all, of the issue was resolved.
if it were me I would get the 10 k head if it is the same size as said and put a switch on the water heater so you can turn it off ad on when you want to . plus I would put soft start caps. on all the a/c units and you should be fine . I only have 30 amp x 2 when I am in Florida and had to do this and never had a problem other then remembering to turn back on the w/h . Now I can run one of my a/c units with my tiny westinghouse 2500 watt inverter genny because of the soft starts .
dave
https://www.amazon.com/SPP6-Capacitor-Increase-Starting-Torque/dp/B0002YTLFE
https://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-iGen2500-Portable-Inverter-Generator/dp/B01MTGJGCN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=XL9K0L3EE9N&dchild=1&keywords=westinghouse+generator&qid=1601899870&s=hi&sprefix=west%2Ctools%2C191&sr=1-2
If you can swamp in a mini-split that'll ease the power load, seems like you are fairly close and maybe saving a 1kW load can make the difference.
Quote from: windtrader on October 05, 2020, 10:37:30 AM
If you can swamp in a mini-split that'll ease the power load, seems like you are fairly close and maybe saving a 1kW load can make the difference.
I would love to do a mini-split and get rid of one or more rooftops. The problem is where to put the condenser. I have a 43 foot coach, but the wheelbase is so short I only have two full size bays and one 2/3 size bay. One of the full size bays is for water tanks, water heater, and the generator. The other full size bay and the 2/3 size bay are kept open for cargo. I carry a ton of tools in about half a bay to make repairs as necessary. I used nearly every one of the tools over the years.
I could probably build some sort of shelving/racking to make better use of space to free up space, but it also limits what I can put underneath.
Not saying it looks appropriate for our kings of the road but the schoolie crowd mounts them externally on the back. May be possible to make an external cover that looks nice enough to work. Something simple made of fiberglass with a few rounded, contoured edges/sides.
Quote from: belfert on October 05, 2020, 11:36:18 AM
I have a 43 foot coach, but the wheelbase is so short I only have two full size bays and one 2/3 size bay. One of the full size bays is for water tanks, water heater, and the generator. The other full size bay and the 2/3 size bay are kept open for cargo.
What did you do with the original a/c condenser area that took up that other 1/3rd bay?
That's where I would have put a generator if I had removed the OTR A/C. (which I remember you did)
:D BK :D
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on October 05, 2020, 12:31:17 PM
What did you do with the original a/c condenser area that took up that other 1/3rd bay?
That's where I would have put a generator if I had removed the OTR A/C. (which I remember you did)
The generator is in the old condenser bay. For those not familiar with a DINA the rear most luggage bay has 1/3 of the bay sectioned off for the condenser bay. My generator is in the condenser bay area and the water tanks are in the remainder of that bay.
Quote from: belfert on October 05, 2020, 11:36:18 AM
I would love to do a mini-split and get rid of one or more rooftops. The problem is where to put the condenser.
I am still looking into the repercussions of this idea, I don't know anything about Dina's coaches, and don't know much about others either. :)
I can't do roof warts on mine. Not with the twelve inches of roof lift it has.
Since the PO of my MC9 already destroyed the rear cap by sticking a window A/C unit through the back ::) I am considering having a custom cap made and using that space for two or even three condensing units. I would first build a waterproof bulkhead and floor above the radiators to eliminate any ingress for water and provide support for mounting. The rear cap/removable cover would have side air inlets and rear outlets. Because of the extra 12" of height I have plenty of room to work with above the radiators.
Just an idea I have been kicking around in my mind.
Is the rear cap fiberglass? If so, not that difficult of a repair.
Quote from: lovetofix on October 06, 2020, 07:32:01 PM
I am still looking into the repercussions of this idea, I don't know anything about Dina's coaches, and don't know much about others either. :)
I can't do roof warts on mine. Not with the twelve inches of roof lift it has.
Since the PO of my MC9 already destroyed the rear cap by sticking a window A/C unit through the back ::) I am considering having a custom cap made and using that space for two or even three condensing units. I would first build a waterproof bulkhead and floor above the radiators to eliminate any ingress for water and provide support for mounting. The rear cap/removable cover would have side air inlets and rear outlets. Because of the extra 12" of height I have plenty of room to work with above the radiators.
Just an idea I have been kicking around in my mind.
My Dina doesn't have radiators above the engine like a lot of MCI coaches. It does still have a raised area in the back that is about three feet high. I made that area a storage closet, but it doesn't get used much. I've been thinking that maybe I could put mini-split condensers back there, but I don't know how I would vent the area and keep it from getting water inside. I would also have to seal that area from the rest of the bus.
I wonder if anyone has tried to reconfigure the working parts inside the outdoor half of a mini split to allow it to be mounted horizontally instead of standing upright? That would allow it to be mounted in a bay with the fan blowing out through the floor, and it would be simple to rig up an intake to draw fresh air in through the side of the bay either through a door or a bulkhead.
When I first got my Bus it had an auxiliary AC in the back that I removed (shouldn't have).
The condenser was mounted on the Curbside engine access door, the evaporator was on the inside back wall, and the compressor was above the squirrel cage drive.
I have been toying with the idea of getting a minisplit and blowing it apart and using the components in the place of these parts, except the compressor, that could probably go up where the original MCI blackwater tank was.
Peter
Quote from: richard5933 on October 07, 2020, 05:48:43 AM
I wonder if anyone has tried to reconfigure the working parts inside the outdoor half of a mini split to allow it to be mounted horizontally instead of standing upright? That would allow it to be mounted in a bay with the fan blowing out through the floor, and it would be simple to rig up an intake to draw fresh air in through the side of the bay either through a door or a bulkhead.
OT now talking about mini-splits but turning the compressor on its side would be a major alteration to its original design orientation. Not an experiment for me. Remember even a slight off vertical mounting of the fan unit causes drain water accumulation and leak problems.
Of turning a unit on it's side! IMO the condensate issue would just be the tip of the issue. Turning a sealed compressor on it's side would probably be catastrophic after revealing how compressors are oil cooled & lubricated at the bottom of the sealed unit they operate in... Again no expert just IMO.
Re-read what I wrote - I wasn't suggesting turning the unit on its side as is. My suggestion was to deconstruct the unit and remount the internals so that the form factor could be changed. For a residential install the tall slim unit works well, not so much for some buses.
I don't believe there is any condensate in the condensing unit either - isn't that in the evaporator unit up inside the bus?
The Custom Coach a/c units are basically a mini split setup. Here's a photo of the internals - the only thing not showing is the actual condenser coil and fan, but you can figure out from the external view where they are. The rear of the fan (motor) is showing at the bottom of that photo.
My basic point is that it's not necessary to be beholden to the form factor in the outdoor unit of a mini-split system. As long as the compressor maintains the same orientation, it can be moved inside the cabinet. By laying the cabinet flat and venting out through the floor of the bay like CC did, you gain a lot more potential for positioning things in a bay without losing the entire bay. Be creative.
The Custom Coach units I have saw were just copies of the Cruise Air units
Could one modify a mini-split to work in a different orientation, probably. Would it really make sense to do so unless you just like to tinker, no. You would have to get someone to recover the refrigerant and you would have to be able to braze the lines back together.
Custom Coach almost certainly had those units manufactured in that configuration. It is unlikely took apart A/C units and put them back together in a different configuration.
Quote from: chessie4905 on October 07, 2020, 04:03:35 AM
Is the rear cap fiberglass? If so, not that difficult of a repair.
I don't want to highjack this thread, it is already wandering OT.
I'll start a new thread.
Quote from: belfert on October 07, 2020, 07:31:42 PM
Could one modify a mini-split to work in a different orientation, probably. Would it really make sense to do so unless you just like to tinker, no. You would have to get someone to recover the refrigerant and you would have to be able to braze the lines back together.
Custom Coach almost certainly had those units manufactured in that configuration. It is unlikely took apart A/C units and put them back together in a different configuration.
Without a doubt the CC units were spec built to be mounted the way they were. I was just thinking that with the low cost of the mini-split units it seems like a good way to get all the components, even if they need to be recharged.
For a guy that has basic a/c skills and equipment, it's also possible to buy the components off-the-shelf to build one from scratch. An option that would probably allow for higher-quality components chosen for a spec built unit that would fit exactly where you want it.
I looked at a very early CC conversion built on a Flxible recently. The CC a/c unit had the condensing unit mounted in the space above and to the side of the engine in the rear cap. A vent was cut to provide air to cool the coil.
A/C units can be tucked in all kinds of places with a little creativity.
I have decided to replace my generator with a new 12.5 KW model. A 10KW might work, but the price difference isn't all that much to go to 12.5KW. I am pretty sure it will be a WRICO. Justin has been very helpful.