Well, I spent a good chunk of the afternoon trying to rig up a contraption to bust the lugs off the back wheel to get after my leaky wheel seal project (replace seal, brake block, re-pack bearing, etc.). I used a 5:1 torque multiplier and a 3/4" ratchet w/ 12" extension, cheaters, etc... and only managed to nearly shear off the head of the extension (good old HF cheapie tools) and not even budge the first nut.
So... I'm thinking of getting an impact gun. The impact action alone might help stubborn nuts. And I don't want to spend an hour getting lugs off of a wheel when it's time to put on the spare or do maint. work.
Harbor Freight isn't too far away, and has a few models that might fit the bill. I'm torn between the 1"(link (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92421)) and 3/4" (link (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92353)) Earthquakes. They seem to use a LOT less air than the cheaper models, and that should make a big difference in using the bus air or a small-ish compressor for running it.
When I had a roadside guy replace a flat last fall, he struggled on one of the nuts with his mongo 1" IR, probably because of rust and/or an over-zealous tire monkey that put it on. So I'm wondering if "bigger is better". Anyone have particular models (HF or otherwise) that they've used with success on stubborn bus lugs.
I know that there's a school of thought that says "pay someone else to bust the tires off" and let them deal with the tools and the trouble. But I don't think I'm one of those folks. I've had two flats in the few years I've been bussing, and both times had no trouble helping the guy with the tire and getting it in and out of the well. Had I had an impact, I also wouldn't have been stuck waiting around for the service call. Also, I want to be able to get any wheel off to do maint. and repairs in my back yard.
Thanks in advance,
Brian Brown
I've used the cheap 1/2 in, 3/4 in, and 1 in. harborfrieght impacts. I could not recommend any of these, untill my friend Jerry Jenkinson aka sojourner showed me how to use an impact the right way!! My approach was to put the tool on the nut and hold the trigger until I ran out of air or the nut came loose.
Jerry explained to me that if I put an air gauge on the line at the tool I would see what was happening. Holding the trigger more than a few seconds reduces the volum and pressure. Holding the trigger for a couple of seconds and releaseing for a few seconds allows the air to "catch up" I went from taking off 1 nut to takeing 3 to 4 nuts off befor haveing to let the compressor catch up. Also lots of oil needs to be used in the impact. I can now take off almost any lugnut with my cheap HF 3/4 in impact.
The ideal set up would be an airtank close to where you are working, with say a 6 foot 3/4 or 1 inch hose. With the tank being replenished by a hose from the compressor.
Brian, My 3/4" Torque Wrench has about a 4' handle and will handle most any lug nut (and properly torque your wheels) make sure to get one that goes to at least 600 ft lbs and clicks in both directions.
I also have a 1" impact, but I use the torque wrench most of the time-you'd also need a 12" extension and bud wheel socket.
Heres on one ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Torque-Wrench-by-Central-600-Ft-Lbs-3-4-inch-Drive_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43989QQihZ005QQitemZ150096045100QQrdZ1
HTH, Chuck
I didn't think you were supposed to remove stubborn nuts with a torque wrench.
I have had a 1 inch IR for many years, but it is very heavy and tough to use. I got a new 3/4 IR from ebay. This wrench will remove any lug nut. The new titanium 3/4 is lite weight and very strong. The secret with air tools is the size of the air supply hose and fittings. My new 3/4 IR will do most heavy work with a 3/8 hose, but when a really tough task demands power, the hose size must be 1/2 and just 25feet to the air storage. Our buses easily have enough air, but a very restricted air path. To effectively use the bus air, a new 1/2 pipe line must be created. The fittings all must be 1/2 inch with no restrictions. The compressors on most buses can make about 15 - 18 cubic feet of air per minute. My 10 horse shop compressor makes about 21CFM. Frank
Brian,
You might try heating each nut for about 5 or 10 minutes with a propane torch. Then hit it with your impact wrench.
I use an IR 2135PTI 1/2" drive impact. It has 700Lbs. torque forward and 900Lbs. torque in reverse @ 85psi.
I have no problem running it from my 2HP compressor or off the bus air.
Once in a while I've had to heat a lugnut to get it loose on a friends semi, but haven't ever needed anything larger.
Good luck!
Dallas
What about going to a shop or a friend and have them run the nuts on/off a few times to break them free and clean up the threads, and then you can use your wrench. But it is nice to have an excuse to tell the Boss lady that you absolutely need those nice impacts and big compressor. ;)
Brian, I had to break mine loose too. I used a 3/4 rachet with a 4 foot pipe. Block up under the head and use your weight on it. However you get them off look at the threads to see what that extra torque does to them. I will run mine on with a 1/2 gun and tighten by hand. When the tire goes flat I need to know I can remove it. Good Luck. Tom Y
One of the big problems I had is with the local truck tire place uses 160 lbs of air with 1 inch IR to full torque and when I tried to remove them with my 1 in IR they wouldn't budge. I had 1/2 in hose with a backup tank and compressor with 125 lbs air. Well I thought that a little leverage would do the trick so tried a 12 foot cheater on the lug wrench and jumped on it with my 200 lbs like it was a diving board and still nothing. Well I finally cranked the compressor up to 150 lbs and finally the IR was working. Jerry
Brian you had the right idea the first time, a torque multiplier, but you just didn't have a big enough one to do the job. Last year i had to replace all of my air bags but could not get the wheels off with anything i tried until i borrowed a 12:1 torque multiplier. It worked so well that i bought my own and from now on will never let anybody else ever touch my wheels again. ;D
Where is a good source for a torque multiplier? Whats the price range?
Laryn
Good advice, all!
Now here's a crazy thing I found tonight that I thought I'd share. I seemed to recall a socket thing that came with a bunch of other bus cr*p with old Blue Velvet (the 4106 of yore), so I went out and rummaged around and indeed... it's this strange device called a Budd Tool Wrench made by Cole Mfg. A Google search did not turn up anything promising on Cole, but I found Ken Tool makes this same gadget. Here's a link to one. (http://www.alltiresupply.com/p-TR44X.html) It has this captive 1-1/2" socket welded on and an adapter to wrench out the inner stud on the dual, and a couple of cheater pipes.
The site above says it's a 3:1 ratio. So, it's not near as good as my 5:1 multiplier I tried today... although the thing seems to be built like a tank. But doing some math... Assuming I dance on the handle (like a gandy dancer), my 175 pounds + 18" of cheater x the 3:1 multiplier will only give me about 800ft#. Since I nearly sheared off a 3/4" extension with the 5:1 today, the nuts are probably well over that.
Hmm, Dallas... so it adding heat to the lugs really OK on all of the internals? I guess brakes can get pretty hot on their own... so maybe it's OK.
Wow, Ed, a 12:1 multiplier is something! I was adding a LOT of torque to mine (about 3' of cheater x 175 x 5 = well over 2,000... could that be right??). I guess the HF extension couldn't take it, but the nut shoulda busted loose. Maybe I'll go get an "impact"-able extension tomorrow and try it with the 5:1 before buying an impact.
Thanks,
Brian
www.12times.com is where i got mine. They advertise it has a max output of 3640 ft. lbs. I got the original X-12.....comes with a metal case and a 14" ratchet that extends to 22" and the right sockets and extra shear pins for the price of $619 i also needed a torque wrench so got one from them for a total price of just over $700 including shipping. It sounds a little spendy but the first time you use it i think you will agree it is money well spent. I know i did!!! ;D
Your lugs must be a lot tighter than those found on and MCI. I get mine off with this torque multiplier without problems. Takes a bit of time, but once they are all cracked, a 1/2" ratchet will remove them. You've got to have some way to torque the things when reinstalling.
Also have a 1" Harbor Freight cheapo that works fine...have to use a 3/4" hose with it. Very air hungry. Wouldn't be suitable for the bus on the road.
I'd like to know how you make out with the new "Earthquake" impact (the one that uses less air) if you buy such an impact. A 3/4" impact would remove my wheel lugs.
If an impact wrench ad describes 1200 lbs of torque, my experience is that about half that much is really available. I've got a 1/2" IR that does a remarkable job and very quiet...like to have a 3/4"...but, don't pull the wheels off the bus often enough to replace the el-cheapo.
Good luck with removing your wheels....someone has overtightened them I'd bet. Have they been off since you bought the coach? If not, I'd pull all of them and retorque. Be sure that they can be removed while you're at home. Save some grief on the road when tire changing time comes around.
JR
Ed,
I don't think that link goes to where the tool is.
Laryn
oops! i think i screwed that up! try www.Times12.com/
Well Ed and JR's multipliers look like nice pieces of engineering, for sure. The thing I was using today (wouldn't you know I didn't take a picture) is this offset affair and must weigh 10 pounds all by itself. Using it is not fun. The X12 especially looks like a breeze to crack nuts with. And no air, compressors, and hoses to worry about. Or even electricity for that matter. Nice.
Hmm....
Ok that gets you there. Just as a further note, last year when i was trying loosen the lug nuts i was using a 4-5 ft. cheater bar with no luck. When i was using the 12:1 multiplier i could pretty much only use one arm as i was still recovering from dislocating a shoulder about four months earlier......took 8 months before i completely healed up from that.
Although the Ken Tool that Brian describes can be used to remove drive axle outer nuts, it is awkward to use and it is made for a specific purpose. It is designed to remove the outer nut when the inner nut tuirned and you can't get the wheels apart. I sold mine at a yard sale for $25.00.
The X-10 certainly applies lots of torque to the outer nut. I borrowed one to use on a stubborn nut and it developed enough torque to twist off the square end of the inner nut without the outer nut coming loose.
At some point, the best answer is a cutting torch and then replace the studs and nuts because they are likely stretched.
A 1" ratchet head makes a torque multiplier easier to use. That's the round gizmo in front of the torque head. With a torque head, the lever will move over a long arc with almost no socket movement...results in a lot of socket repositioning, which is a PITA, or moving the pull handle which often ends up in a bad position. Ratchet head solves this problem.
One other thing is to wrap duct tape or something similar around the socket if you have nice wheels. The socket will fall off occasionally and damage alloy wheels.
I agree with Stan that lugnuts that are that difficult to remove should be replaced....along with their studs.
An air impact large enough to twist off the studs would make short work of removal...still have to repair the studs. Air impact is best way if you have an air supply of sufficient capacity.
Brian, I've got an idea for removing your problem wheel...let the air out of your difficult tire and call road service and tell'em you have a flat. They'll get it off. ;)
JR
Just to state the obvious, remember that the driver side of the bus has reverse threads on most bus and truck lug nuts.
These problems are why I changed all my studs and wheels to Hub piliot. My hubs will work and now plan to run 4 alumium wheels and 2 steel. I do not have a large enough raised area on my rears to run dual alumium wheels. Just another idea. Tom Y
Tom Y: Are the hubs for the newer Hub piloted Wheels the same as the old hubs for Stud Piloted or did you change all your hubs?
If you buy an off brand gun its gonna use a lotta air. If you buy the IR tire gun it will work all the time and use very little air. My best one will do ten lugs on a KW with a little 1 lung cummins compressor with 2 compressor cycles. (2 minutes to rest while it rebuilds air). My 3/4 IR composite hand gun works almost as well. It wasn't designed for tires, watch your fingers. I always coat all threads with boat trailer wheel bearing grease, It makes a huge difference on stud life and workability. If I didn't have air plumbed, I would have the tire shop pull the wheels. I'd grease the studs and nuts and put them on with my 3/4 torque wrench by hand at about 250 lbs, check them @ 300mi again with the wrench then do daily visuals for loose nuts. Thats a lot of work and I truely admire Mr. IR.
I think those threads are supposed to be assembled dry.
Tom Caffrey
Quote from: Tom Y on March 04, 2007, 10:18:08 AM
These problems are why I changed all my studs and wheels to Hub piliot. My hubs will work and now plan to run 4 alumium wheels and 2 steel. I do not have a large enough raised area on my rears to run dual alumium wheels. Just another idea. Tom Y
Most alloy wheels are combined with steel dual inner wheels.
An inner alloy will be useless if turned around anyway. The hub flange damages the wheel.
And weight isn't typically an issue on a bus conversion.
There's a disc that isolates the wheels. No electrolysis.
This is also a reason to use steel spares...if you carry a spare.
JR
OK, I made my way to HF this afternoon. After handling the 3/4" Earthquake, I couldn't bring myself to buy it, knowing I'd have to put an extension on it and keep it all together as I bust 'em off. The 1" guns just seem made to take off lugs. I also passed on the Earthquake 1" since it was three times the money of one older model I found on clearance for $99.
It's fairly lightweight (28lbs), twin hammer, and has a max. torque of 1400ft#. 3 "speeds" L and R. Air consumption is a whopping 12cfm, so I'm going to have to be patient with this thing.
I also picked up a 1" impact socket set that weighs more than the gun. It includes a handy Budd socket with the 1-1/2" and 13/16" sq. drive built in. I also bought a 1/2" hose to cut up and use for supply. My plan is to use a 6' or less run of 1/2" hose to an 11 gallon "punk" tank. And the rest of the 1/2" hose teed off the dry tank of my bus (or my cr*ppy Craftsman compressor, if need be). I'm working through the "plumbing" aspects now, trying to make wide-open connections at the "punk" and on downstream to the dry tank.
Weather here is supposed to be in the 60's tomorrow, so I'm hoping it'll sound like a NASCAR pit tire change around here in short order. I'll keep 'ya posted.
Thanks, folks!
Brian B.
a pic, naturally...
Keep that dude oiled. It's the life of the tool.
I also picked up a 1" impact socket set that weighs more than the gun. It includes a handy Budd socket with the 1-1/2" and 13/16" sq. drive built in. I also bought a 1/2" hose to cut up and use for supply. My plan is to use a 6' or less run of 1/2" hose to an 11 gallon "punk" tank. And the rest of the 1/2" hose teed off the dry tank of my bus (or my cr*ppy Craftsman compressor, if need be). I'm working through the "plumbing" aspects now, trying to make wide-open connections at the "punk" and on downstream to the dry tank.
When you make up your "plumbing", use the large 1/2" air quick connects. This eliminates a common restriction that limits the air gun output. When we plumbed our shop there is a 1/2" quick connect in the 1" air line the feeds my shop near each corner of the bus. Hope this helps, Jack
Stan, I did not change my hubs. I have an 80 MCI 5C. The rear hubs have a raised area the right dia. but does not come out enough for 2 alumium wheels. The front has a ring to support the wheel, where some trucks have 4 tabs. I had the Buds on my last RV and I really do not like them. Tom Y
Thanks Tom: I have never used hub piloted wheels and what I have read on the BBS indicated that they were completely different from stud pilot and use different studs with just one different kind of nut. Now I wonder if it is possible to change the wheels on any bus. Does anyone know?
Stan, I changed all my studs. I will post a couple pictures to show what I have, Maybe tomorrow. I was happy when I started to measure. Tom
Stan, The wheels are completely different. The hub piliot center on the Hub. The stud piliot center on the stud. It may be hard to see but there is a raised area on my hub next to the drum which will center the wheel and the nuts hold it tight to the drum. Hope this makes sense. Tom Y
Stan, Sorry I missed the front. Tom Y
Hi;
After reading all the replies, I have two more things to keep in mind.
First check if you are turning the nuts the right way. My MCI has
left hand threads on one side and right hand threads on the other
side. Look at the center of the wheel stud for a letter.
Second, when you get the nuts cracked loose, use anti-sieze
compound on the threads, then torque to specs. I use a cheater
bar and breaker bar and have no problems. Least I know I can change
a tire any where when needed.
Good luck, Merle
Tom Y: Thanks for the info. It got me curious, so I looked up specs on the two types of wheels. Bolt ring and bore are the same, so the major requirement is to have a hub that fits the bore along with new studs and nuts. On a stud pilot, the hub size is not important.
It is interesting to note that the Accuride web site says that stud pilot is "the industry standard" while most people shopping for aluminum wheels say that used hub pilot are easier to find.
Quote from: pvcces on March 04, 2007, 07:09:43 PM
I think those threads are supposed to be assembled dry.
Tom Caffrey
I don't know what the actual specs are but I used NeverSeize on every lug nut & stud on every truck I ever owned. I used a 1/2" impact to remove and install wheels. I never had any problems doing either or with wheels loosening after installation. I would not let tire dealers tighten lugs after installation because they would usually wring them off.
I might mention I did not come up with this on my own. I learned it from my uncle who was also in the trucking business. Between all of us, we put over 10,000,000 miles on trucks without problems.
harbour freight is junk. northern toll has an impact called aircat very good impact the 3/4 drive has i think 1180 ft pounds of torque and the cost is 299.00
FWIW, Alcoa's website offers two torque specs for alloy wheels...one with lube and one without. I don't know if neverseize is good or bad, but I use it on the stud threads...not the lugnut flange (hub piloted wheels). I check the wheels occasionally and have never had any loose or undertorqued lugnuts.
Alcoa has several pages of wheel attachment data on their website...I've got a link somewhere. If interested, I'll find it and post same.
JR
Quote from: doug mars on March 07, 2007, 03:48:46 PM
harbour freight is junk. northern toll has an impact called aircat very good impact the 3/4 drive has i think 1180 ft pounds of torque and the cost is 299.00
Junk or no, the $99 gun busted off the lugs
"like buttah". For the outer nuts I used my plug-in compressor. For the inners, I used the bus air. FWIW, the bus' compressor runs
rings around the old "Crapsman" oiless, obviously. The punk tank set up with a 5' run of 1/2" hose will drop from about 120psi to 90psi to bust off one. Only one outer nut needed more than one "wave" of air, but a few were stubborn and needed a few seconds to coax them to twist. The inners were a cakewalk... probably because they weren't exposed to the elements.
I also used the impact to tap off the outer axle nut this afternoon. Buttah! I'll post some nasty grease-filled drum info on a separate thread.
Seriously, the HF is cheap and inefficient. But I'm only going to do a few tires a year. And I'll spend the $200 on something else.
Lastly, here's a pic of my eldest "having a go with it". Actually, there's no way I'd let him do this single-handedly... but he did like to pull the trigger for me and watch them spin off. Fun!
Brian "Here's to cheap Chinese junk!" Brown
Brian I have the same impact from HB, and it works very well, the secret being volumn of air and no restrictions in the fitting if you use a 3/4" hose and 3/8" or 1/2 fittings your restricting the flow. My only problem is the trigger being unguarded, that can get you into trouble. If I keep it oiled, I can change all the wheels I need to for a long time. I'm sure those 700 or 400 dollar tools are the cats meow! I don't plan on working in Nascar anytime soon, or hossing that jack around the bus at high speed! ;D I do have a problem with bouncing on a cheater bar breaking lugnuts loose, that just waves a red flag, and warrants a trip with blue cross expenses!
Pat
http://prevostlemirage.blogspot.com/
"I do have a problem with bouncing on a cheater bar breaking lugnuts loose, that just waves a red flag, and warrants a trip with blue cross expenses!"
I personally watched a fellow loose 3 teeth to that idea.
Happy - How many did he start with? - LOL
I tried using the twin hammer impact gun that was rated @ 1500 from HF 1/2 inch hose 30 gal tank, and only managed to free up about half of my lugs >:(, next thing is a cut of wheel and air chisel after all i've got to replace the studs anyway
Quote from: ulaff on March 08, 2007, 06:40:27 PM
I tried using the twin hammer impact gun that was rated @ 1500 from HF 1/2 inch hose 30 gal tank, and only managed to free up about half of my lugs
I don't know if you tried this already: but a short hose fed by BIG fittings will help the cheap, inefficient HF guns reach their full potential. Simply going through a regulator on many compressors is too much restriction. My "punk" tank is 11 gallons, and I replaced the tap (there is no regulator on it) with 1/2" iron pipe going into 1/2" hose barbs, 5 feet of 1/2" hose... and made sure I had 120psi every time I pulled the trigger. 11 gallons won't give me much more than a few seconds... but it's hammerin' pretty good for a few seconds.
HTH,
Brian