OK so the bus I traded for and kept to convert for myself when we closed KY Lakeside Travel is a 1992 Neoplan with the 12.7 DD 60 Series.
It's been sitting a while and I have been trying to get it fired up and moved so I can finally start my project.
But when I first went to try it it would barely turn over and no start. And it would like stutter (for lack of a better description) while trying to turn over. OK so at first I was trying to start it with 2 group 31's with a pair of jumper cables on both from 2 seperate pick trucks.
Well after that failed I bit the bullet and went and bought 2 new 8D's still no luck even with a pick up jumping one battery, and a battery charger on 200 AMP BOOST on the other.
Still no start and it seemed like the "stuttering" got worse while we were trying it with spraying either in it, but still no start.
I took a fitting out of the first fuel filter (before the pump) and hooked up an electric fuel pump, still no luck!
OK I again I bit the bullet an bought a 39MT starter for it. I put the 39MT on it and tried it again. First time it pushed the rear start switch NOTHING, so I checked all the wires and everything was like it was supposed to be.
Tried the front start button, still NOTHING!
So I got in there and used a jumper from the hot post on the starter (after checking voltage) to the small post on the solenoid and it spun over like mad. While I was cramped up down by the starter I had my helper hit the rear start button, NOW it spins over like it should but starts the stuttering again.
OK so that tells me the rear start switch needs replaced.
But now I have it turning over nice an fast it still doesn't wanna run.
I will hit and run as long as I'm spraying either, but let off the either an it dies.
So I am pretty sure it's not getting a signal from the DDEC to fire the injectors.
I have checked and checked for fuses in or near the batteries for the DDEC, but I can't find NONE!
I have looked and looked everywhere for DDEC fuses and can't find them.
I opened up the junction panels and checked ALL the breakers and nothing is tripped.
I am at a loss.
BTW while I was at it I went and had a 2/00 ground cable made to go from the main ground post next to the battery and ran it to the starter ground post. (the old one just went to the chassis, next to the battery with a ground coming off a ground post on the chassis about 4 feet from the main one) So now I have GOOD ground with only about 36" cable straight from the main post and not 30" coming off a secondary post. (btw I did hook the old one up also)
I also had a new cable made from the negative post to the main ground post, and one from the positive post to the shut off switch. (I also temporarily bypassed the 12V and the 24V shut off switches by putting all 12V wires from that switch to one post and all the 24V cables on one post) Yes I know I need to reconnect those shut off switches once I have it running, just trying to eliminate problems for now.
;D BK ;D
Check the ground connection on the DDEC control box. No ground - no signal.
Sounds like you need to go over the ground connections for the ddec. clean and reconnect all of them. Sitting that long creates all sorts of ground connection problems.
Loss of fuel prime is a possibility, but a bad ground connection is most likely. It should fire fairly quickly.
Bryce have you checked voltage at the Vanner?
If the check engine light doesn't come on and go off in a few seconds it won't start,the check engine light tells you if the ECM has power
You's gots to find dem fuses. Trying to start with low batteries CAN blow the ddec fuses, been der done dat. Ddec 2 or 3? I'm sure Cliff can tell you right off the top of his head which pins to check for voltage and ground on the ecm. Btw, series 60 do NOT like to run on ether, you can dump a whole can in there and barely get a chug.
What Cliff said, if they don't come on and go off you are wasting your time doing anything else until that happens.
Jack
Bryce, Just throwing it out there but check and make sure your wires didn't get nibbled by the critters. ;)
Cut open the heat shrink on the batt cable connectors.
Creeping green and black plague?
Had that trouble on 6 year old Prevost...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Pull codes from the ECM.
It won't fire the injectors if it doesn't have a steady signal from the crankshaft position sensor. You'll also see a low voltage error if you do have a ground problem.
Quote from: blue_goose on September 10, 2020, 08:23:19 AM
What Cliff said, if they don't come on and go off you are wasting your time doing anything else until that happens.
Jack
Quote from: luvrbus on September 10, 2020, 08:09:37 AM
If the check engine light doesn't come on and go off in a few seconds it won't start,the check engine light tells you if the ECM has power
Yup! Until then, that pretty much sums it up. Good luck!
First start on mine after transplanting it into the Eagle was the same symptoms, but I just didn't quite have prime, one shot of ether was all it took
Fuel was at the pump but we had an extremely hard time getting it to the injectors
HTH
You can't rely on the CEL when you turn the key on to tell you if the ECM has sufficient power because the power requirement increases when firing the injectors and the starter pulls down the system voltage when cranking the engine. The ECM has a specific low voltage error, which might be occuring during cranking.
It also has errors for open injector connections.
So by pulling codes you will immediately see:
- whether or not there is a power issue to the ECM
- whether or not the crankshaft position sensor is working
- whether or not the injectors and harness are good.
I believe the S60 ECM also monitors fuel pressure. I'd have to check.
Whenever you have an issue with an electronic diesel engine, the first step is to pull codes. It will save you many hours of troubleshooting time.
Code 48 is low pressure fuel but doesn't keep one from starting and running and you can change the programed limit,2 new 8-D batteries and the MT 39 reduction starter voltage drop is not his problem since the 12.7 was machinal injection the DDEC just measured the amount of fuel
When you switch forums it takes a while for your bus to get used to the new forum and the advice from it. It should come quickly. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanks everybody.
From what Don Fairchild has told me it's a DDEC 2.
It has two multi pin plugs held in by 1/4" screws and 3 smaller clip in plugs all on the same end.
We tested the multi-pin plug for power and w/o the ignition switch up front off we found 12-13 volts on a pin in the "b" cavity. With the ign switch on we had 12-13 volts on that same pin as well as one of the pins in the "a" cavity.
Can't see any numbers on the wires and the wires are all different colors. I didn't have a good multimeter with me at the time, and was using my "Blue-Point" (Snap-on) tester it's a mutlifunction test light that does voltage or continuity either one depending on which way the switch is positioned.
It has 4 led's that light up as voltage increases 1 is 6v 2 is 12v 3 is 13v an all 4 is 24v.
It ain't fancy but it does tell you what you got fast an easy!
I do have a Simpson multimeter but it needed a new battery. I picked up a battery today so now I have use of a good multimeter.
I will move my primer to the secondary filter Sat. when I have time to work on it again.
I hadn't thought about watching for the CEL SEL lights we have been doing everything from the rear and I have been having an Amish teenager that's been helping me go turn the front switch on for me.
I don't have a Pro-link or any other type of reader. Yes I know I need one and I actually had one when we had all the buses in the charter business but when we got the S417's it was useless as Diamler had their own readers to read the whole crazy system they had built, so my Pro-Link got put away in a drawer in a file cabinet and eventually grew legs.
I replaced both positive and negative cables to the batteries so bad cables are not the problem.
At the Vanner I have 12-13v and 24v respectively but my big mistake their was I used the main ground on the battery to test it instead of the ground on the Vanner.
I need to positively identify which pins that need to have the 12 volts + and which ones would be the grounds so I can check to make sure they are good.
;D BK ;D
Quote from: luvrbus on September 10, 2020, 01:41:45 PM
Code 48 is low pressure fuel but doesn't keep one from starting and running and you can change the programed limit,2 new 8-D batteries and the MT 39 reduction starter voltage drop is not his problem since the 12.7 was machinal injection the DDEC just measured the amount of fuel
LOL <snip> - moderator edit.
Let's dial it back please! The forum is a place for bus folk to help each other out, encourage, contribute, correct, etc.. Sarcasm has a much better home out on social media. And in this case, Clifford has helped almost everyone on the forum as can be seen by checking some of his 22,000 posts.
Thanks! Feel free to PM me if any questions/concerns.
:: plyons Forum Moderator
- Phil
http://www.detroitmanuals.info/series60-ddecv-troubleshooting/421202.html
https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/downloads/DDEC%20I,%20II%20and%20III-IV%20Schematics_files/DDEC%20I%20TroubleShooting%20Guide.pdf
See Section 3, page 12 to read the codes from your CEL without a scanner.
Quote from: someguy on September 11, 2020, 12:43:32 AM
http://www.detroitmanuals.info/series60-ddecv-troubleshooting/421202.html
https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/downloads/DDEC%20I,%20II%20and%20III-IV%20Schematics_files/DDEC%20I%20TroubleShooting%20Guide.pdf
See Section 3, page 12 to read the codes from your CEL without a scanner.
Thanks for the reminder of using the CEL lights to read the codes. That's how we did it in the past before I had a Pro-Link.
;D BK ;D
Quote from: someguy on September 11, 2020, 12:38:26 AM
LOL "machinal injection" huh ? DDEC measures the fuel ? With a cup ?
Hey wise @$# you ever saw a injector from the 12.7 series 60,I bet you never saw a injector timing pin for a series 60
Quote from: luvrbus on September 11, 2020, 06:42:16 AM
Hey wise @$# you ever saw a injector from the 12.7 series 60,I bet you never saw a injector timing pin for a series 60
Someguy, please learn to curb your know it all attitude until you get some real world experience!
Clifford aka Yoda has probably forgotten more than you'll ever learn from GOOGLE and his IS HANDS ON EXPERIENCE from before their was GOOGLE!
I'm not saying you can't learn or even be helpful from googling, but common sense and REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE goes a LONG WAY!
YODA has helped more of us than the rest of us all together have helped others!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: someguy on September 11, 2020, 12:38:26 AM
LOL "machinal injection" huh ? DDEC measures the fuel ? With a cup ?
I miss Kadletz.
That bit of childishness would be the pleasant end to this distraction.
Gary, punt this agitator?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote[
This forum is like some sort of a strange twilight zone of crotchety old anti CAN bus men dissing ABS and hugging their oil leaking 2 strokes. Time has stopped here. It's sad./quote]
Square peg in a round hole Much? Sounds like this boy's cheese dun slide off his cracker ;D
Quote from: Van on September 11, 2020, 09:05:43 AM
Quote[
This forum is like some sort of a strange twilight zone of crotchety old anti CAN bus men dissing ABS and hugging their oil leaking 2 strokes. Time has stopped here. It's sad./quote]
Square peg in a round hole Much? Sounds like this boy's cheese dun slide off his cracker ;D
He is harmless and has some good ideas, he just spends to much time with Google to try and make a point,I knew he didn't know much about the series 60 when he was going to check and see if it monitored fuel pressure
Quote from: Van on September 11, 2020, 09:05:43 AM
Quote[
This forum is like some sort of a strange twilight zone of crotchety old anti CAN bus men dissing ABS and hugging their oil leaking 2 strokes. Time has stopped here. It's sad./quote]
Square peg in a round hole Much? Sounds like this boy's cheese dun slide off his cracker ;D
LOL! Thanks for the laugh Van, I hadn't seen this as I guess Phil modified it before I spied it!
Ya know funny thing is he ain't the first one to come in here thinking they knew it all (If I remember correctly back when I was about 11-12 yrs old I was the same way!)
And he won't be the last!
But if he'd take some well intended advice and listen and learn he'll find he will be welcome and learn a lot as well as be able to contribute.
I admit he did remind me of something long forgotten! About using the CEL light to count and read codes.
And I really have to laugh at this part! crotchety old anti CAN bus men dissing ABS and hugging their oil leaking 2 strokes. Time has stopped here.
He obviously hasn't been on "grease monkey" and if he had they'd bounced his @$# a long time ago!
;D BK ;D
For some it's hard to realize that there are more than one aspect to the hobby. For some it's just about making a bus into a motor home. For others it's the added challenge of doing the conversion with a vintage bus.
Takes a bit of crazy to decide to make a bus into a motor home, but it takes a special kind of crazy to do it with a vintage or even antique bus.
Quote from: richard5933 on September 11, 2020, 01:15:19 PM
For some it's hard to realize that there are more than one aspect to the hobby. For some it's just about making a bus into a motor home. For others it's the added challenge of doing the conversion with a vintage bus.
Takes a bit of crazy to decide to make a bus into a motor home, but it takes a special kind of crazy to do it with a vintage or even antique bus.
Yeah or even a 28 yr German bus built by a company that folded long ago!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on September 11, 2020, 02:28:36 AM
Thanks for the reminder of using the CEL lights to read the codes. That's how we did it in the past before I had a Pro-Link.
;D BK ;D
You aren't the only one reading this thread. Did I say it was for you ?
For those that aren't familiar with DDEC on S60, the ECM controls the timing and fuel delivered for the mechanically (camshaft) operated injectors. The DDEC computer does not measure the fuel delivered. It relies on the injector being properly calibrated and installed and when it fires it with the correct injection timing pulse that it will deliver the proper amount of fuel.
Both the 2 stroke DD diesel injectors and the S60 injectors rely on spill ports to control the timing and volume delivered. On 2 stroke DD injectors the spill port is controlled by a scroll moved by the rack. On the S60 the spill port is a high speed electric valve that is controlled by the ECM injector signal.
The S60 was one of the earliest diesel engines to have electronically controlled injectors. The 2 stroke DD engines were some of the earliest to have unit injectors. Most engines prior to that used an inlne injection pump with injection lines that went to each individual injector.
Bosch and Robert Bosch or whatever conglomerate was used post war, made a ton of money on every diesel engine because most used a Bosch inline pump. DD went its own way with unit injectors.
The DD 2 strokes also used direct injection. Many engines used indirect injection with precups long after the DD 2 strokes were on the market. And DD 2 strokes were never available with a pony engine. They started much better than old indirect injected engines. But still no where near as good as modern day diesel engines.
Another thing a lot of people don't know about DD 2 stroke engines is that they can be made to run CW or CCW with the same basic engine parts. Normally the only big change is the camshaft because the upslope cam profile is different than the downslope profile. I think that the cam can be swapped end to end on some engines to even reuse that, but I'm not sure. I don't think it could be swapped on every model.
On twin engine boats the engines are sometimes (usually ?) set up to run in different directions. The shop manuals have have a page that shows where to put the idler gears to make the engine run in each direction. The blower turns the same direction regardless of the engine direction. This is achieved by moving the idler gear that drives it to the other side.
I wrote this all from memory, without consulting Google.
Moderator??
Getting tiring watching a constant pissing match on the threads. If you have something to contribute, please do so. If not, please sit back and read quietly.
Don't think anyone is here to prove anything to anyone, or at least hope not. For me, I ask when I need help and offer advice when I can. Thought that's what we're all here for.
Not directed at anyone in particular, but rather collectively.
Dude,
I am so confused now, more than usual. Just why are you here? It seemed the original goal was to gain knowledge about bus conversions, that is what this group is about. We were more than willing to help you progress toward that goal. I know I asked about your personal criteria so we can help you better. Parameters like what is your budget, what is your timeframe for buying, building, getting on the road, destinations like parks with electricity, boondocking in the desert, and on and on. You refused to provide anything to us.
Over time, you are just swinging your dick around trying to show us how big it is and how much you know about all this esoteric commercial vehicle crap. Who the foaak cares? Nearly 90% of this BS has nothing to do with the goal of you buying a bus.
Most of us think you are a big fat oaf, drive a big diesel pickup, and have a tiny dick. So why don't you swing it in some other forum and let us rub ours in peace. Like Van knows, boulders kind of do their own thing, so go do it somewhere else.
To dear Phil, I try to be polite and not sure how many rules I busted but how about giving a poor slob a break. I am sure there are a few here busting a gut about now. thanks don
btw - i got the Shurflo water pump fixed. Not proud it is a small thing swinging but at least I got one and it works.
@ windy
:^
BK, when you get a chance you should buy a Pro-Link scanner if you have a DDEC engine, and the Detroit DDEC Troubleshooting Manual. Instead of guessing, those two will save you countless hours and frustration. The cheapest way to buy a Pro-Link for DDEC is to buy a Pro-Link for 1990s GM cars, throw away the cartridge (unless you still have a 1990s GM car!), and buy the appropriate DDEC cartridge separately. You can then get what you need for not much over $200 if you're lucky, instead of a lot more for a DDEC-ready Pro-Link. And why a Pro-Link for old GM cars? They use the same expensive 12-pin adaptor that DDEC uses which will cost you $60 if you buy it by itself, and NOBODY wants to buy Pro-Links for those cars!
John
Quote from: Iceni John on September 11, 2020, 09:22:32 PM
BK, when you get a chance you should buy a Pro-Link scanner if you have a DDEC engine, and the Detroit DDEC Troubleshooting Manual. Instead of guessing, those two will save you countless hours and frustration. The cheapest way to buy a Pro-Link for DDEC is to buy a Pro-Link for 1990s GM cars, throw away the cartridge (unless you still have a 1990s GM car!), and buy the appropriate DDEC cartridge separately. You can then get what you need for not much over $200 if you're lucky, instead of a lot more for a DDEC-ready Pro-Link. And why a Pro-Link for old GM cars? They use the same expensive 12-pin adaptor that DDEC uses which will cost you $60 if you buy it by itself, and NOBODY wants to buy Pro-Links for those cars!
John
Thanks John I never knew about that. I had a Pro-link way back in the day when I had the "Hot Rod Setra" with the DDEC 8V92.
(which BTW SOMEGUY 60 Series was NOT the first engines to use electronic injectors as the DDEC 2 strokes had them first!)But when we upgraded to the newer Setra S417's with their complex system that the Pro-link wasn't compatible with, the Pro-link got put in a drawer in a file cabinet in the shop office and ended up growing legs as it was never used and who knows when it took a hike to a home that would use it.
I'll check around for the older gm set up.
;D BK ;D
Apparently someone doesn't understand the meaning of the phrase "one of the earliest". Notice I didn't write "the first".
I think the 8V92 came out with an early version of DDEC in about 1985. It used electronically controlled injectors. But I don't think they shipped very many and I think they were problematic. I think a lot of those engines were converted to mechanical injection.
So yes, the 8V92 had electronic injection before the S60 (1987?). But the S60 was the engine that mainstreamed electronic injection control. If you want to talk about mainstream engines with electronic unit injectors, the S60 was first. If you want to talk about engines with electronic unit injection in small volumes that had issues, that would be the early DDEC 8V92.
Keep looking the Pro/Link 9000 are out there,I paid Tom a 100 bucks for this one with the case, manuals.cables and 6 different cartages,I didn't need it but bought sight unseen heck of a buy looks new. I have one of the Kent/Moore for a DDEC l plus others (3) and the programming software on a laptop,all I wanted was the Allison 700 cartage those are getting exspensive to buy now
Quote from: someguy on September 11, 2020, 10:55:06 PM
Apparently someone doesn't understand the meaning of the phrase "one of the earliest". Notice I didn't write "the first".
I think the 8V92 came out with an early version of DDEC in about 1985. It used electronically controlled injectors. But I don't think they shipped very many and I think they were problematic. I think a lot of those engines were converted to mechanical injection.
So yes, the 8V92 had electronic injection before the S60 (1987?). But the S60 was the engine that mainstreamed electronic injection control. If you want to talk about mainstream engines with electronic unit injectors, the S60 was first. If you want to talk about engines with electronic unit injection in small volumes that had issues, that would be the early DDEC 8V92.
They got that straighten out when DD changed manufactures and went to Motorola for the ECM they changed cams in 92 series and firing order too,you could change the DDEC l and early DDEC ll 8v92's back to mechanical without changing cams but that went away lol but people still try,then I get stuck with pulling the heads to change cams.I personly think the DDEC 92 is a better engine than the mechanical 92 engine and could never understand why they would change