Why is nobody buying this bus for a conversion ?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-MCI-E4500-BUS-NO-RESERVE-BANK-REPO/333693899459?
2002 E4500. A few body dings but nothing serious. Odo says 487K, so either 487K or 1.487M. Series 60. Allison. Alcoa wheels. Power/heated mirrors. Retarder. Glass looks good. Idle oil pressure is 30+ PSI. Alternator looks to be working. Proheat 45. Tail lights have been upgraded. Power blinds. OTR compressor is intact. Dual alternators. Frameless windows.
Seller seems very impatient, ie no pre purchase inspection? Has it listed at $13K for a few weeks, no bites.
Seems like a pretty solid start for a conversion. Am I wrong ? Offer him $11K, he'll probably take it ? What would be the downside ? Isn't the salvage value on the components near his asking price ?
Am I missing something?
I think it would be a better platform than this bus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ85rKOT0xA
Buy it he will take less then you know, Sam in KS has a yard full being parted out if you need parts
After all your talk lately,, where is your wallet?? >>>Dan
Why?
I don't know that I'd spend that much money on a pig in a poke unless I personally knew the seller or if I was able to get more information on the bus.
Historically, repossessions are some of the most abused vehicles available. In this case, no pre-inspection is available, and all you have to go by are the pictures. Don't count on the previous maintenance to be good or up to date. The eBay seller has a good feedback rating, but that is it. If it appears to be a candidate for you, make a low offer, and keep in mind that salvage prices are at a low level now. How far away is the bus from you? It might cost a lot to get it home.
Is there really a chance that bus has 1.47 million miles? That would be about 226 miles every day for the past 18 years. Does a typical charter bus get driven that much?
I would be worried about a bank repo. Did the previous owner let maintenance slip since they didn't have the money to keep up on payments? My bus came from a charter company that went out of business. No idea if it was a repo, but the maintenance had not been kept up on. It needed new tires, new brakes (including drums), new wheel bearings, an exhaust pipe, and some other stuff I don't recall. $10,000 at the shop not including tires. The shop had me come out during the repairs to look at the wheel bearings. They were literally falling apart.
I looked closer at the listing and noticed a couple of things. The mileage is digital and appears to have room for another digit so it is likely the real mileage unless some of the electronics have been replaced. The listing doesn't mention what drive train it has. However, but looking at all of the pictures it appears to have an Allison (probably B500) and the engine is a Series 60. Isn't 2002 still a non-EGR engine?
I would almost consider this bus just for the drive train if I wasn't building a garage for my bus next year.
The B500 might be close to end of life if the fluid and filters haven't been changed regularly.
Why isn't anything selling?
This far into the pandemic?
There are NO buses on the road up here, fleets are shuttered all over North America, many people have a big hole in their bank account from reduced or lost work, those with money, are worried about their adult kids reduced/lost wages...
The potential market is WAY WAY smaller, almost non-existant, than it was 9 months ago...
Good buses are going for cheap, why buy a very likely crap bus?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on August 29, 2020, 07:33:13 AM
Why isn't anything selling?
This far into the pandemic?
There are NO buses on the road up here, fleets are shuttered all over North America, many people have a big hole in their bank account from reduced or lost work, those with money, are worried about their adult kids reduced/lost wages...
The potential market is WAY WAY smaller, almost non-existant, than it was 9 months ago...
Good buses are going for cheap, why buy a very likely crap bus?
Good answer.
But is that a crap bus ? How much lower should the price be to justify the crapiness ?
I'm looking to avoid pre Multiplex buses, but maybe I should reconsider that.
Watch out for rust, check every possible place it could rust, including under the bus...
Alabama, Watch out for rust, check every possible place it could rust, including under the bus...
Quote from: someguy on August 29, 2020, 08:27:06 AM
Good answer.
But is that a crap bus ? How much lower should the price be to justify the crapiness ?
I'm looking to avoid pre Multiplex buses, but maybe I should reconsider that.
The problem with this particular bus is there is no way to know if it's a crap bus or not until after you pay the money. You pays your money you take your chances.
I'd think you can the same or better bus for the same or less money elsewhere, probably without the mystery.
Quote from: richard5933 on August 29, 2020, 08:58:11 AM
The problem with this particular bus is there is no way to know if it's a crap bus or not until after you pay the money. You pays your money you take your chances.
I'd think you can the same or better bus for the same or less money elsewhere, probably without the mystery.
Where ? Show me an E4500 in that condition for $10K.
The engine might be worn out. S60s are easy to do an inframe on. Parts and plentiful and cheap. The Allison might have issues. But if you rebuilt them, you'd have a bulletproof drivetrain.
Quote from: lvmci on August 29, 2020, 08:45:26 AM
Alabama, Watch out for rust, check every possible place it could rust, including under the bus...
I've looked at several southern and northern E/Js. Rust has certainly not been an issue with these buses. Generally everything is completely free of rust except the front and back bogies area. (MCI calls the sub frames that hold the front and rear axles bogies.) And even in those areas the rust is not compromising anything and nor is it bad. Just usual chassis rust. If find this a big change from earlier generations of buses, ie MCI9s with rotted out air beams.
Quote from: someguy on August 29, 2020, 09:15:40 AM
Where ? Show me an E4500 in that condition for $10K.
The engine might be worn out. S60s are easy to do an inframe on. Parts and plentiful and cheap. The Allison might have issues. But if you rebuilt them, you'd have a bulletproof drivetrain.
My point is that you're buying a pig in a poke - you have no idea what kind of hidden problems are in that bus. It bothers me that inspection is not allowed at all and that you are required to buy based on only a few photos.
It's your money - if you think it's a great deal then I look forward to seeing the photos of your new bus soon.
You asked for opinions on why that bus isn't already sold, and I gave you mine. Not trying to start an argument and you're perfectly free to spend your money as you like.
I bought my bus without laying eyes on it. The only thing I saw about the bus were the photos and videos from the previous owner. But, I did my research and found that Luke's shop had recently worked on it and knew the condition of it, and Luke was able to personally vouch for the seller as an upright dealer. This is the part I see missing here - you don't have any way to verify through a trusted & known source.
If you feel confident in it then carry on.
I agree to some extent. You could part it out if it was bad. S60 cores are getting hard to find.
Nobody that is hoping to stay in business are openly advertising... that is certain death in a customer service business... nobody will book or give a deposit, if they get even a whiff of potential closure.
Fleets are going so far as to hide some of their equipment, to maintain appearances around their usual place of business.
You want a coach, start calling around to see what might be quietly for sale, that was on the road, before it all hit the fan.
Stuff is not going to come served on a platter.
The fleets that have gone under, nothing is for sale openly, because there are no potential commercial buyers and the finaciers can afford to wait for awhile.
Busnuts do not enter into the picture, too few, too cheap.
The bus industry is stalled, kaput, non-moving.
The deals require connections, phone calls, and effort. The carnage to the living and the dead is unprecedented.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: someguy on August 29, 2020, 09:24:18 AM
I agree to some extent. You could part it out if it was bad. S60 cores are getting hard to find.
Part it out to who?
Current conditions are no demand and over supply.
Ask the rebuilder if they want that S60 out of a BUS, and at what price, before you gamble. They don't make money having to screw around swapping it to truck configuration.
This is not the time to be trying to turn a bus into money.
It certainly is a good time to turn money into a bus, ignoring the rest of our economic disaster for a moment.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
COVID isn't going to last forever. And when it is done there is going to be a tidal wave of cooped up people looking to travel.
Truckers are still going strong.
I've got a line on another bus but this one is cheaper. I didn't give this bus much thought until I created this thread last night.
I've contacted the seller. We are going to go through some things on Monday.
Quote from: someguy on August 29, 2020, 09:24:18 AM
S60 cores are getting hard to find.
Really? How many do you want? Lol!
1st rebuild cores ? That aren't cavitated around the liners ?
Quote from: someguy on August 29, 2020, 11:17:19 AM
1st rebuild cores ? That aren't cavitated around the liners ?
"How many do you want?"
Better not count on scrapping it out. That's a fool's game unless you're already set up for it, and $10K is too much to pay for a total. You'll be spinning your wheels instead of building a bus. Not the best plan.
Bottom line is that you need to verify the condition of the bus. Sounds like you know enough to do that yourself. So go look at it. If it's close enough to bring home it's certainly close enough to drive to see it. If the seller won't accept that, drop your offer to 25% or less and ask him to reconsider the inspection. If he doesn't get the idea from that, give it a pass. Better deals will come along.
Jim
I wouldn't buy a bus to scrap. But if you found something wrong with it, you wouldn't be far out scrapping it. A running S60 sells for $5K, plus the core charge, which is $2500.
https://www.vanderhaags.com/Search-Results.php?items=50&subcategory=engine-engine-assembly&manufacturer=detroit&model=60-ser-12-7&inventorytype=engine-assembly&typesetid=3000
time for a road trip to check it out in person. make you are setup with insurance and some kind of paper work or tags to take it along if it checks out. Unless you buy brand new, there are always some kind of issues, hopefully none that are a deal breaker. a good test drive with your prior experience should alleviate most issues, ie engine, trans, brakes. No engine service light issues especially. Maybe if the location is reasonable, you could have a company mechanic come and run a scan tool on it if necessary. Make sure the service light comes on when started, then goes off.
Another idea would be to check with Luke if he knows of any of that model near him for sale that he has serviced.
Quote from: buswarrior on August 29, 2020, 07:33:13 AM
Why isn't anything selling?
This far into the pandemic?
There are NO buses on the road up here, fleets are shuttered all over North America, many people have a big hole in their bank account from reduced or lost work, those with money, are worried about their adult kids reduced/lost wages...
The potential market is WAY WAY smaller, almost non-existant, than it was 9 months ago...
Good buses are going for cheap, why buy a very likely crap bus?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Uh. Read the business journals. Retail sales are trending up and recreational vehicle sales and support are booming. Thank you US Goverment for printing 3 trillion dollars in funny money and blowing it all over the us like these recent hurricanes. More to come to with the elections. Nobody wants to defend chocking off all the free money. There will be a day of reckoning, always settled with devastating conflicts and terrible suffering to humans and countries.
Here is a J, one year newer, a little cleaner... $60K
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-MCI-J4500-For-Sale/392907813527?hash=item5b7b217297:g:YywAAOSwGz9fNiR0
Here is a 2000 EL3, 602K miles... $19,900
https://www.truckpaper.com/listings/trucks/for-sale/27146071/2000-mci-102-el3
Here is a 1998 EL3, 620K miles... $17,900
https://www.truckpaper.com/listings/trucks/for-sale/29536377/1998-mci-102-el3
Here is a 2008 J, 480K miles... $100,000
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-MCI-J4500/174398605160?hash=item289af78768:g:A3YAAOSwoaFdeTfl
If the 2002 really has 480K on it, it is a good deal for ~10-12K. There aren't enough changes between 2002 and 2008 to warrant paying $90K more for the 2008.
most of stimilus has been spent by consumer. tiny home sales and busses and shells has slowed now. notice how many are now for sale on facebook and craigslist?
bus companies going under or offloading assets to keep from going under, bank repossesions, loancompanies repossesions, etc. good time for next few months to score a deal. If a reliable vaccine comes out, things "may change quickly". or get worse. it is just a gamble.
FYI - Bus just sold at $14k, 10 day on this listing, earlier post implied it was posted previously. 2 bidders. bid it up $1k from $13 to $14k
Quote from: windtrader on August 29, 2020, 12:21:02 PM
FYI - Bus just sold at $14k, 10 day on this listing, earlier post implied it was posted previously. 2 bidders. bid it up $1k from $13 to $14k
Doesn't surprise me that it sold. Looked like a pretty solid value at that price.
Now that it sold, I'll give you the back story. A pastor purchased it for his church. It passed safety inspection in December. It was being used in early 2020. Covid hit and he couldn't afford to make the payments and it got repossessed.
It's bus number 61873.
Bid history.
Bidder
Bid Amount Bid Time
o***l(1349feedback score: 1349) US $13,999.00 29 Aug 2020 at 14:59:05 EDT
4***6(226feedback score: 226) US $13,899.00 29 Aug 2020 at 14:59:03 EDT
o***l(1349feedback score: 1349) US $13,699.00 29 Aug 2020 at 14:58:33 EDT
4***6(226feedback score: 226) US $13,699.00 29 Aug 2020 at 14:59:00 EDT
4***6(226feedback score: 226) US $13,399.00 29 Aug 2020 at 14:58:28 EDT
4***6(226feedback score: 226) US $13,199.00 29 Aug 2020 at 14:58:20 EDT
o***l(1349feedback score: 1349) US $13,099.00 29 Aug 2020 at 10:53:20 EDT
4***6(226feedback score: 226) US $13,099.00 29 Aug 2020 at 14:58:17 EDT
Starting Price US $12,999.00 19 Aug 2020 at 14:59:08 EDT
When I started looking at bus conversions back in 2006, an MCI9 with 800,000 miles was selling for $20K.
See where 24 years of waffling has got you.??>>>D
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on August 29, 2020, 01:24:52 PM
See where 24 years of waffling has got you.??>>>D
I'm so glad I didn't buy an MC9.
Are you also glad you didn't buy anything,?? You could be camping and traveling in one by now and bragging about it.... :-\ >>>D ( 24 years is a long time to be indecisive,, it's a trap!!.)
I didn't think it was worth my time to do a conversion on an MC9 so I dropped it. I hate 2 strokes, the bus is only 96" wide, rust everywhere and hard to put a slide into it. Now I can get an E4500. No rust, good diesel engines, 102" wide, easy to put a slide into, much better electronics. Much better use of my time.
Since 2006 I upgraded my 5er and bought a new Superduty and "made do" without a conversion. Believe me, I haven't been suffering.
Quote from: someguy on August 29, 2020, 12:36:03 PM...Now that it sold, I'll give you the back story. ...
Curious why the need to wait till it sold to give the back story? If you knew all of this, then why ask us all the questions instead of just bidding on the thing yourself.
Quote from: richard5933 on August 29, 2020, 03:21:32 PM
Curious why the need to wait till it sold to give the back story? If you knew all of this, then why ask us all the questions instead of just bidding on the thing yourself.
That is why he is a massive troll and ASSH**. Sure comes here to take knowledge then not only does not share about a coach another member might be interested in but does not even bid himself knowing it seems fairly sound based on the story. Maybe he can Rip van Winkle and disappear for another decade then return saying he didn't want to buy a E/J MCI, too old.
I found out about 20 minutes before bidding closed. I contacted the seller and he called me.
You guys are such a bunch of hissy girls. I've never seen anything like it.
I'm looking to avoid pre Multiplex buses, but maybe I should reconsider that.
Oh god, don't tell me your considering buying one with -wait for it-"relays". The horror.
First, not sure but I think you just insulted all the hissy girls of the world.
Second, I was only going off the way you worded it, "Now that it's sold, I'll give you the back story." Sure sounded like you waited till the auction was over before telling the back story. Not trying to feed the fire, just letting you know what my comment was based on.
You guys are such a bunch of hissy girls. I've never seen anything like it.
You are absolutely right. I can't figure out why you would waste your time here.
He may have been concerned someone might out bid him. Natural reaction. I'll give him more time. Can be tough to pull the trigger on that first one, especially with all the coach woes that have been posted over the years.
Quote from: windtrader on August 29, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
That is why he is a massive troll and ASSH**
You forgot one *, now you are spot on. ;) According to the Urban Dictionary "hissy is ... A term used by the non-binary/genderqueer community as an alternative to girl/boy". I had no idea bus nuts were gender confused, or is someguy? :o
Quote from: Fred Mc on August 29, 2020, 06:52:22 PM
I'm looking to avoid pre Multiplex buses, but maybe I should reconsider that.
Oh god, don't tell me your considering buying one with -wait for it-"relays". The horror.
If you want to spend your money on gold bricks, go right ahead. Ditto on 2 stroke diesels. Rebuild your hearts out. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt, done graduated. Ditto on fixing rust bombs.
Time is money and buying a good quality coach as a base for a conversion saves a lot of both in the long run.
This forum is like some sort of a strange twilight zone of crotchety old anti CAN bus men dissing ABS and hugging their oil leaking 2 strokes. Time has stopped here. It's sad.
I can see where you might come to that conclusion,,but,, after almost 30 years of being a member of this forum ( and the bus conversion crowd ) I have found a that certain bus types and "looks" will grab different people and pull them in different directions..
As an example, I have no use for a "schooly" but some folks love them to death..>>>Dan
The guy seems to know the bus he wants and is waiting it out till the right deal comes along,prices have changed I gave 55k for 1972 model 05 Eagle in 1998 with a 8v71,4 speed and no power steering and spent a small fortune to convert, lol hind sight I should have kept my Vogue Prevost with the problems it had
The heading on one of his first posts(FRAME DIMENSION PLEASE) basically told me everything I needed to know about him.
I don't believe he has any intention of ever buying a bus. Once he does that he will have to either put up or shut up and it looks like that might just be too intimidating for him. Talks a good game but has yet to do one thing concrete to show he's anything other than talk. Anybody can post links to u-tube videos. Getting in there with your hands and sweating is quite something different. Here we have the very picture of a Wannabee. All bluster, trying to hide what he isn't. And when called on it, resorts to sexual insult. Not an honest bone in his body, show me one thing about this guy that isn't totally fake and totally flakey.
Jim
No need to take things personally or respond in kind. People do have bad days.
Well?
I would also note that since the back story said it was owned by a minister it may be lucky that he did not by it. Those owners often leave the maintenance to God, who generally seems to be occupied with other things.
Quote from: Lin on August 30, 2020, 10:41:12 AM
I would also note that since the back story said it was owned by a minister it may be lucky that he did not by it. Those owners often leave the maintenance to God, who generally seems to be occupied with other things.
Good one Lin but his name his mention a lot working on a bus
Quote from: luvrbus on August 30, 2020, 11:44:30 AMGood one Lin but his name his mention a lot working on a bus
His name - rip van Winkle and all that work is him dreaming for a couple decades. Good riddance. You are a lot kinder than I thought Cliff; maybe you simply got heat stroke.
This board is starting to feel like the old day's when Kadletz owned it..>>>Dan ::)
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on August 30, 2020, 01:22:21 PM
This board is starting to feel like the old day's when Kadletz owned it..>>>Dan ::)
Hatt will never let happen there no reason for it happen like the old days,did I miss something did Someguy take his marbles and go play somewhere else ?
Someguy is just a troll pissing people off don't respond to his questions ignore him and he will disappear eventually
I wouldn't dislike him that much. Obviously spent a lot of time researching. Good discussions about the differences in the newer MCI models in one post. Learner a lot about them. Maybe he'll get a coach, maybe not. Maybe he can come back and discuss Prevosts.
I'd agree with that. The guy had some positive input. But his arrogance was pretty disruptive. After awhile it became increasingly hard to pass that off as unintentional. I mean, is anybody actually that stupid in real life? Maybe?
Jim
Quote from: someguy on August 29, 2020, 08:10:08 PM
If you want to spend your money on gold bricks, go right ahead. Ditto on 2 stroke diesels. Rebuild your hearts out. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt, done graduated. Ditto on fixing rust bombs.
This forum is like some sort of a strange twilight zone of crotchety old anti CAN bus men dissing ABS and hugging their oil leaking 2 strokes. Time has stopped here. It's sad.
Yes give him time and encouragement, he'll come around lol.
QuoteYes give him time and encouragement, he'll come around lol.
Van, I'm confused. You mean he'll Rip van Winkle for a decade or two or buy a bus? LOLx2
I dunno. Pretty revealing that when we called him on actual provable accomplishments he folded up and blew away.
Anybody can do internet theorizing and brag big. The real world isn't nearly so nice or so clean.
When, after claiming to have a $150K budget he passed on what to all appearances was a real cream puff at a bargain basement price according to him, his intentions became pretty clear. To me it looked like a move of desperation in the face of diminishing credibility.
But if he does come back I've got no issue with it, provided he can pull in his horns a bit and quit telling such outrageous lies. Hey, I have a couple guys in my family who are like that, they've gotten better over the years. (And I know which ones are the lies, I've made the rounds.) It's a kind of addiction I reckon. So any true busnut should be able to relate, in a way.
Jim
Oh yeah, I forgot about having a $150,000 budget. Considering that and all the other bravado, it might be that he is a teenager having a good old time pretending to be a busnut. Unless he comes clean and becomes relatable, we should not bother responding.