As my mother would have said, I'm once again a day late and a dollar short...
I finally decided to add a cruise control to my bus, and of course the best option is now gone from the picture. Now that Cruise King is no longer selling kits, what options are there for installing a cruise to my bus.
Here's what I'm working with...
- 1974 GMC 4108
- Detroit Diesel 8V71
- Spicer 4-speed
- Air throttle
- Speedo gear on transmission works, but I'm not using it since the speedo itself was inaccurate. (Consistent, but inaccurate) I'm using GPS speedo
Not sure is all this information is relevant or not, but there is is.
Any advice on cruise options would be great. I'm mainly interested in units designed for the application if possible, not a lightweight automotive.
Rostra was a option not great but they worked for awhile I don't think they are making anything now for the machinal engines,there maybe old stock floating around on the market,I have seen new Bendix NOS in the box pop up on E bay before those are good units.
If I search for the Bendix unit, what exactly am I searching for? Is there a particular model that works with the air throttle?
I searched around for a while on this topic myself, I liked that King was both Cruise Control and Fast Idle, haven't seen that elsewhere. At the moment I'm designing and building my own with an Arduino controller because I couldn't find anything on the market to suit.
Quote from: richard5933 on August 19, 2020, 09:55:54 AM
If I search for the Bendix unit, what exactly am I searching for? Is there a particular model that works with the air throttle?
I don't have any idea now it's been so long ask Lostagain he has a Bendix on his
Quote from: Nova Eona on August 19, 2020, 10:00:25 AM
I searched around for a while on this topic myself, I liked that King was both Cruise Control and Fast Idle, haven't seen that elsewhere. At the moment I'm designing and building my own with an Arduino controller because I couldn't find anything on the market to suit.
Let me know when that's up and running. I'm hoping to do some automation with Arduino as well but I'm a bit earlier in the process.
Get a Rostra. They work fine. There was a guy over on bno that used to sell them for our coaches. Only shortcoming is no fast idle. Big deal. You should already have this anyway. They are very flexible with dip switches for tuning settings. Lots of brackets and connectors. They work nice with air throttles since the pull is less than with cable. They come with settings for clutch systems in the package. You need the all electronic version. The vacuum version, if it is still available, needs a vacuum source. You need to also buy the actuator switch, of which they have a few choices. I've used them with success on a 2003 Suzuki Vitara and a Suzuki Burgman maxi scooter. They have been used sucessfully on Honda Goldwings too. I would suggest connecting the actuator at the accelerator pedal, with the actuator unit mounted in compartment under driver. Mount speed sensor at drivers front brake drum. Your drums may already have threaded holes on inside flange for a couple of bolts or you can glue magnets to the drum, which is what I did on the scooter. They explain how to set dip switches. The whole kit should be less than 300 bucks. Oh, and they are 12 volts.
https://www.amazon.com/Rostra-250-1223-Universal-Electronic-Control/dp/B007ZCQD9S/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/135-3893330-4290907?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B007ZCQD9S&pd_rd_r=a6c52b15-0cdd-4106-b999-4a97e19e024e&pd_rd_w=PZ21Y&pd_rd_wg=JSPbq&pf_rd_p=ce6c479b-ef53-49a6-845b-bbbf35c28dd3&pf_rd_r=N68STP81KB5FC0GEQCR3&psc=1&refRID=N68STP81KB5FC0GEQCR3
Rostra may be worth a try when Pete on the BNO was selling the units I never got one to last a long period of time but they were cheap in price.try it it doesn't work you can always buy a scooter and use it 8).Geoff has one on his RTS and I know he has replaced it how many times I don't recall,The King was by far the better unit and a lot higher price too
I have a king cruise that was on the 8v71 I took out. It would need a little new wiring, but I think you could make it work.
Interested?
Quote from: Nova Eona on August 19, 2020, 10:00:25 AM
I searched around for a while on this topic myself, I liked that King was both Cruise Control and Fast Idle, haven't seen that elsewhere. At the moment I'm designing and building my own with an Arduino controller because I couldn't find anything on the market to suit.
If you can read the coach speed off a transmission sensor, this wouldn't be hard to do. It's a pretty simple (slow) PID loop.
What are you going to use for an actuator to move the throttle ? How are you planning to sense brake actuation ? Off the brake lights ?
They fail a lot... sure Cliff🙄. Sure King Cruise units are nice, but if you have issues, who are you going to call? No more service. You are basically screwed if it fails unless you find another one on ebay or somewhere IF it works. Rostras have been around for ages and have sold 50 times more units than King and they have customer service yet. Pete RTS Daytona used to sell them and offer assistance to users. Don't know if he is still around. Hasn't posted for a few years.
I have a King Cruise on my 4905 which I saved off the 4104. Otherwise I would have used the Rostra. King units were $695 before they went out of business, btw.
I've had a Rosta on my eagle for 18 years. Never given me any trouble. I have the actuator servo up under the nose behind the eagle emblem. The cable pulls the foot feed pedal. The magnetic sensor is tie wrapped on my driveshaft.
Quote from: someguy on August 19, 2020, 05:01:09 PM
If you can read the coach speed off a transmission sensor, this wouldn't be hard to do. It's a pretty simple (slow) PID loop.
What are you going to use for an actuator to move the throttle ? How are you planning to sense brake actuation ? Off the brake lights ?
At present my plan is to use this actuator https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071DWJCPR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 with a custom mount and linkage to allow it to adjust the throttle without interfering with the air throttle - that's actually the most complicated part at present, as I'm still figuring out how I want to mount/manipulate the thing between all my other summer projects. I want to mount it at the governor so that it's not subject to the delays of air, which adds complexity but should be worthwhile.
Programming for the actuator control is done - it's got a Hall effect sensor, so it can sorta remember where it is, and I've got the voltage dividers built which will allow the Arduino to read the tach and speedo inputs without letting its own smoke out. Next up on the control side is verifying that it can read those inputs appropriately and account for random voltage dips or mis-reads. The actual control logic from there should be pretty straightforward, if demanding some trial and error and 'what if X happens' planning. For brake sensor, either a brake light tap or a switch on the pedal.
In my head this project has three phases:
Phase 1: Fast idle with user-adjustable RPM setting (side bonus - good 'stuck on a hill' emergency option)
Phase 2: Actual Cruise control based off the speedo or possibly GPS if I can get a GPS output, as my speedo gets a little jittery above 45
Phase 3: Long term project - Shift assist! With throttle control and accurate readouts of tach and speedo, it should be possible to teach the Arduino how to set the throttle for the smoothest possible shifts, albeit with plenty of trial and error. This is for fun more than necessity.
It should also be noted that I'd be way less comfortable with this project if I had an automatic transmission, particularly since if the actuator fails mechanically it will remain in whatever position it was last at - I do have some ideas here for electronic failure though, namely a set of relays which, if not powered by the Arduino's controls, automatically applies the voltage to withdraw the actuator. I don't plan to use this on significant hills and so can rely on the clutch to get me out of trouble if it starts acting up.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 19, 2020, 07:05:59 PM
They fail a lot... sure Cliff🙄. Sure King Cruise units are nice, but if you have issues, who are you going to call? No more service. You are basically screwed if it fails unless you find another one on ebay or somewhere IF it works. Rostras have been around for ages and have sold 50 times more units than King and they have customer service yet. Pete RTS Daytona used to sell them and offer assistance to users. Don't know if he is still around. Hasn't posted for a few years.
I have a King Cruise on my 4905 which I saved off the 4104. Otherwise I would have used the Rostra. King units were $695 before they went out of business, btw.
King didn't go out of business they sold that part off several years back,they are mostly electronics now for mobile satellite. What I didn't like about the Rostra was you couldn't mount it close to the engine governor with a cable throttle people like David mounted those on the pedal.I liked the King mounted in the rear and when I installed Jakes I could offer people a fast idle and a cruise for the price of the Jake brake combo switch kinda of a no brainer.Plus you can use a tach instead of glue on sensors with the later Kings if you had a tack the same hookup almost like the newer electronic engine use now,I never saw a Rostra on a bus from the factory it was always a King or a Bendix for the money they may be ok but I have changed a lot of those out for the Kings.$695 was cheap they cost around a 1000 bucks for a long time
Quote from: Nova Eona on August 19, 2020, 07:09:08 PM
At present my plan is to use this actuator https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071DWJCPR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 with a custom mount and linkage to allow it to adjust the throttle without interfering with the air throttle - that's actually the most complicated part at present, as I'm still figuring out how I want to mount/manipulate the thing between all my other summer projects. I want to mount it at the governor so that it's not subject to the delays of air, which adds complexity but should be worthwhile.
I agree that figuring out the actuator is the hardest part.
Here is the thing... the cruise control system should be fault proof. If it loses signal or the battery quits or whatever, it should default to the idle position. I don't think that what you are proposing will do that. If your actuator loses power or signal, your throttle is stuck. I'm not sure how to get around that problem.
QuotePhase 3: Long term project - Shift assist! With throttle control and accurate readouts of tach and speedo, it should be possible to teach the Arduino how to set the throttle for the smoothest possible shifts, albeit with plenty of trial and error. This is for fun more than necessity.
Rockwell built a shift system like this. The shift knob had a plus and minus button on it. You pressed the button, the computer figured out what gear you were in. Then it broke torque on the transmission. The driver was supposed to shift into neutral. Then it adjusted the engine RPM to match the next gear.
It never caught on. No "real" trucker needed it. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't be helpful for a newbie.
Do you have an engine pickup to read RPM from ?
QuoteIt should also be noted that I'd be way less comfortable with this project if I had an automatic transmission, particularly since if the actuator fails mechanically it will remain in whatever position it was last at - I do have some ideas here for electronic failure though, namely a set of relays which, if not powered by the Arduino's controls, automatically applies the voltage to withdraw the actuator. I don't plan to use this on significant hills and so can rely on the clutch to get me out of trouble if it starts acting up.
I'm glad to hear that this is going on a bus with a manual transmission.
Cruise control is so much easier to do on an electronic engine. Either by using CC switch pins on the ECM or sending CANBus messages or manipulating the throttle signal from the pedal.
When I got my 4905, it had a cruise control on it. Similar to a Rostra, but different brand unknown to me. The actuator cable was rusted fast. It was installed in engine compartment. If it was a Rostra, I would just have replaced it. Instead, I mounted my King under driver's compartment.. all my connections were up front. The speed signal came either from tach or speedo, don't recall. Had an issue with it not retracting during setup. Called new King owner about issue. He said, I needed to change dip switch #1 to other position, since 4905 was auto and 4104 unit was from had a clutch. It worked then. That info wasn't in my instruction sheet. The King is very heavy duty built, but with an air throttle, Rostra will be fine.
Unless Richard does a lot of flat land highway driving I question why he would even want a cruise on a 8v71,LS speed governor on the engine with a 4 speed manual transmission
Quote from: luvrbus on August 20, 2020, 07:25:00 AM
Unless Richard does a lot of flat land highway driving I question why he would even want a cruise on a 8v71,LS speed governor on the engine with a 4 speed manual transmission
I rarely drive at governor. On rolling hills or flat the bus will easily cruise at 75+ if I'm not careful to keep the speed down. Only on steep/long grades do I need to keep the pedal to the floor.
On a trip to norther Wisconsin this past weekend I tried to keep the speed at about 65, but even through the rolling hills the bus just loves to go.
My problem is not lack of top end. My problem is lack of low end. Getting started on any type of incline is slow and tedious, sometimes to the point I worry I'll make it at a stop sign with a steep uphill.
I wonder why you couldn't consider an all electric unit from one of the later generation Ford cars? (Mid 90's on) They use an electric motor driven actuator, probably a stepper motor, and have three components: the actuator which is reasonably compact and usually has a fairly long cable, the brain which is built into the actuator, and the switch module which can be popped out of the steering wheel. I think that's all there is except the wiring. It'll need a speed sensor of some kind, either road speed or engine speed. I've used them successfully in sports cars. I've heard the late model GM units are good too but I haven't looked at them yet. The switch module works on discrete voltage levels so it is just switches and resistors and you could probably get by with only one wire going back to the engine. I think the four connections are B+, B-, signal, and signal ground.
Jim
For now I'm going to try and install a Rostra electronic unit. A few details to work out, but I think that with a few magnets mounted on the back edge of a front brake drum I should be able to install without any modifications other than running the cable to the accelerator pedal and the control switch wiring to the dash.
The trick to steady speed on the pedal is musical.
Listen to the machine, set the tone, keep it humming in tune.
Everything makes noise, engine note, exhaust, tires.
Find the rhythm that sings your desired speed.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Starting to get the install started on the new cruise, and have a question about the speed sensor...
My bus has the OEM electric speedometer installed by GM. The generator works but the speedometer itself was having problems so I switched to a GPS speedo.
Is there any way to use the output from the speedo generator for the cruise control's speed signal? Not sure if the speedo generator is producing a steady voltage or a pulsed signal, so hoping someone here will know. If it is pulsed, my thought is that this might be usable and mean that I don't have to mount magnets on the brake drum.
My King runs off the speedo signal. Just needed to select wire at the head. I'd try it. Just be sure to get the signal wire. If that doesnt work, epoxy magnets to brake drum flange and mount the optional speed sensor. I used two magnets opposite distance on Burgman. Btw, my speedo is a Dixson.
You can also contact Rostra if it doesnt work.
FYI, BadAndy over on the Wanderlodge board used all 90s model GM components to replace the Bendix cruise that came on the 6V92s. Works like a charm.
Of course, he is a electronics wizard and runs all his ACs on a battery setup that actually works. LOL! He says the cruise hack was easy but that's like Clifford saying something on a Detroit is an easy fix! ;D
TOM
Continuing with the install prep...
The installation guide calls for putting the magnets on the driveshaft or a front axle. I called tech support at Rostra today to get information on how to set the DIP switches if mounting the magnets on the back edge of the brake drum. The guy wasn't much help.
He said that if I followed the instructions and did it on the driveshaft, I'd end up with 2,000 pulses per mile and use that setting. A bit confusing, because the number of revolutions per mile would really depend on the rear axle ratio & tire size, but he was dead set that it's always 2,000.
So, my tires (Firestone FS561 12R22.5) are spec'd to rotate 487 times per mile. Assuming that means my brake drum will also rotate 487 times per mile, and with 4 magnets mounted on the edge of the brake drum, I'll have 1,948 pulses per mile.
My only fear is that the thing needs to see the 2,000 pulses precisely, but I don't see how it can be a hard number like that. I'm assuming that the Rostra cruise will be fine with this and continue to function. Does anyone see a problem here?
On the Burgman, I glued two magnets on rear wheel and it worked fine. Remember you are selecting the vehicle speed you want it set to. It uses that signal to maintain that speed, it doesn't know what that speed in mph is. it just knows what the sensor speed signal is and locks on to that. I don't like the magnets on the driveshaft idea. The shaft is too short to work with, requires long wires, tricky to mount the sensor,and is hard to access. I would try the signal wire from speedo too. Could make wire up really easy.
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 30, 2020, 11:06:43 AM
On the Burgman, I glued two magnets on rear wheel and it worked fine. Remember you are selecting the vehicle speed you want it set to. It uses that signal to maintain that speed, it doesn't know what that speed in mph is. it just knows what the sensor speed signal is and locks on to that. I don't like the magnets on the driveshaft idea. The shaft is too short to work with, requires long wires, tricky to mount the sensor,and is hard to access. I would try the signal wire from speedo too. Could make wire up really easy.
Thanks.
I did look into using the speedo, but it looks like the OEM unit uses voltage rather than pulsations to make it work.
I understand about the cruise just comparing the pulsations from one moment to the next. What I'm confused about is why there is a DIP switch setting for this at all. Why does it need to have a setting of 2,000 or 3,000 or 4,000 and up to 38,400? Maybe to give it a frequency to look for?
Also confused why the tech said that all cars with rear wheel drive using magnets on the driveshaft will have 2,000 pulses/mile - there is no way all cars spin their driveshafts the same speed.
I think you are over thinking it. I think the dip switch setting is probably what works best for response or accuracy of setting you can always change it to see if a different setting works better
The cruise control unit needs to know the pulse rate in order for the increase or decrease speed functionality to work for the +/- 5 mph functions.
Also some units have a 20 MPH minimum engagement speed.
Likely, too few pulses, the unit will surge speed up and down. Had one like that years ago in a car... useless...
If the tech is adamant about this 2000 setting, it is for a reason, whether how he explains it is any good, matters not.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
In general terms I don't have any problems with what he was saying, but there was one thing which seemed odd.
He was insistent that ALL rear-wheel-drive vehicles with magnets on the driveshaft will have 2,000 pulses/mile. With the wide variety of axle ratios and tire sizes on the road, even just in passenger cars, there is no way they all have exactly the same rotation count per mile.
I'm hoping he was just trying to say that all vehicles using the magnetic pickup are to use the 2,000 pulse/mile setting even though there will be a slight variety between them. The 2,000 pulse/mile setting is the lowest possible, and then it jumps to 4,000/mile.
the cruie doesnt care what the tire diameter or axle ratio is. it just maintains the speed that the signal was generating at the driveshaft when cruise speed was selected. It doesnt give a damn what the actual road speed was. theyve found the 2000 rpms worked good as far as dip switch settings. yrmv.
check the archives under cruise control. Pete Daytona rts sold them and offered tips on setup. Dont know if he is still around though.
Finally getting around to doing the install on the cruise for my 4108.
My plan is four magnets epoxied to the back edge of the brake drum, with the pickup bracket being held by the bolt which holds the brake pin locking plate.
When putting that bolt back in place, is it supposed to have a thread locker applied to it? Anti-seize? Or, just clean and dry? Can't find any reference to a torque setting, so I assume tighten till it's tight.
You can check a bolt size torquing chart for tightness. I would use a new grade 8 bolt with some blue or red loctite. Do your drums have at least two threaded holes on the back flange?
Quote from: chessie4905 on March 13, 2021, 12:11:58 PM
You can check a bolt size torquing chart for tightness. I would use a new grade 8 bolt with some blue or red loctite. Do your drums have at least two threaded holes on the back flange?
I don't see any threaded holes. My plan was to use the Dremel to grind clean spots, and then to connect with epoxy.
Should there be threaded holes on all the drums?
Mine and others I've seen have them. They are only 1/4 ×20 uss. Could have some dirt or surface rust obscuring them. Could be some dont have them.
Quote from: chessie4905 on March 14, 2021, 04:20:43 AM
Mine and others I've seen have them. They are only 1/4 ×20 uss. Could have some dirt or surface rust obscuring them. Could be some dont have them.
I'll look again. Didn't see them yesterday but I didn't try scraping or digging under the surface rust.
Just to confirm, we're talking about on the inner edge of the drum, where the magnets will mount, correct?
If there are no threaded holes, do you see any problem just using epoxy to stick them onto the edge of the drum? The little magnets are only about 3/8 x 3/8 x 1/8 and weigh virtually nothing. Can't imagine them being too tough to stick on.
Anyone have experience going to epoxy route?
epoxy will be fine. just clean that lip thoroughly I glued them on my scooter and they never came off, even at freeway speeds.I only used 2.
those holes are on that fat lip on backside of drums.
Quote from: chessie4905 on March 14, 2021, 11:06:42 AM
epoxy will be fine. just clean that lip thoroughly I glued them on my scooter and they never came off, even at freeway speeds.I only used 2.
those holes are on that fat lip on backside of drums.
Not seeing any holes - either they've filled themselves in with dirt or are just not there. Epoxy it will be.
Now I just have to wait a few days for spring to return - it's damned cold again.
Yeah not all probably had them.
Quote from: richard5933 on March 14, 2021, 05:24:42 AM
Just to confirm, we're talking about on the inner edge of the drum, where the magnets will mount, correct?
Richard -On my MCI, the speedometer pickup was on the LF wheel, and the bolts were on the OUTER rim of the brake drum.
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
Quote from: RJ on March 15, 2021, 12:16:46 AM
Richard -
On my MCI, the speedometer pickup was on the LF wheel, and the bolts were on the OUTER rim of the brake drum.
FWIW & HTH. . . ;)
Were the magnets somehow part of the bolt or epoxied to the bolts?
Different ways to sense speed. Magnet on drum or magnet on pickup. Magnet on pickup is used with flywheel teeth counted with tach pickup.Brother, on his 4104, had a speedometer cable attached to inside of l.f. spindle. Spindle had hole drilled through it. Steel rod attached to dust cap and drove cable. Another way is magnetic pickup mounted near brake drum inner flange surface and picked up signal from bolt heads threaded into drum.
I've still got the speedometer wiring to the dash, unused. But, I think that the OEM speedo worked by varying voltage, not with pulses, so not sure it can be used. If I knew more that might be an option.