Here is an interesting used coach purchase experience shared on Youtube.
https://youtu.be/GYw5gcq7R7w?t=445
If you go through his channel, he has rebuilt just about every part of the bus.
https://www.youtube.com/c/RVChiefPrevost/videos
Justification: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjSADEcTwb0
His was an American Country Coach on a Prevost chassis.
People get excited about a passenger seated bus with 5 to 700,000 miles on the clock to ,98.9 % of the time a bus with over a million miles on it revenue service is in a lot better shape because the operator has maintained the bus where the one with 500,000 are a repo or the operator got word he going to need 40 to 60k worth of work for it so he dumps it,there are exceptions but very rare.You can spend a ton of money on low miles RV conversion buses too,About any tour bus is going to average 60 to 80K or more in miles a years when you look to buy a 20 year old tour bus showing 500k miles you need to pay attention lol I just looked at one for a guy in Idaho
My 1/2M mile bus was a loaner to a university band and it was well maintained and in good overall condition. There were a few oddities about it, racks had been installed below the overhead bins, (extra work to remove) but they held 10 ea. 900W inverters which was a plus. Cabinets had been installed in the rear and the bays (more work to remove) but the lavatory had been removed already which was a plus. It turned out I was dealing with an honest company VP whose job it was to dispose of the donor's old fleet vehicles. He had no real incentive to falsify the vehicle condition. Those kind of situations may be uncommon, but they do exist. The resale value of the bus was essentially destroyed because of the non-standard configuration and the truth is it was undoubtedly worth more as salvage as the engine only had 135K miles on it. However, as a base for an RV conversion it was ideal. Posted on ebay it never met the minimum and in fact never got to $5000. I contacted the seller and offered $5250 and we made a deal.
There are several things that will have to be seen to. For instance there is a crack in the driver's windshield. The OTR has a slow leak (but it uses r134 which is good), the Eiberspacher aux heater didn't run at first. (bad timer) It has a few dings. BUT, it has alcoa wheels, usable tires, good batteries and seems in reasonable shape otherwise.
So, you can invest the time or you can invest the money. It depends on which you can spare.
Jim
Quote from: luvrbus on August 12, 2020, 10:00:27 AM
About any tour bus is going to average 60 to 80K or more in miles a years when you look to buy a 20 year old tour bus showing 500k miles you need to pay attention lol I just looked at one for a guy in Idaho
The ECM will reveal the real mileage on the bus.
And if the ECM is a replacement?
These are shark infested waters...
Swim if you dare?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Does mileage really mean anything over a million or so? I figure at that point most everything that has to be maintained will have been (or not). after that the level of care makes a considerably larger difference. My bus was in service from 1964 to 2000 and has probably gone through an engine or three. In my case it looks like up until the end of its service life it was pretty well maintained. Unfortunately the people who owned it afterwards seem to have just parked it and lived in it. Now its up to me to replace all the rubber bits.
I'd bet the region the vehicle was operated makes a considerably larger difference. After 36 years in service I still have an in tact air frame and most of my metal framework is in decent shape.
I miss the Chief .. not much from him on the youtube anymore.
I've thought similar, Could I buy a better coach for the $30k or so I have into mine?... maybe, especially now. Ultimately I don't regret it. We needed 4 bunks, I think if we could have found a good deal on an entertainer, we could have converted that easier than a seated coach or a typical RV setup for a couple.
No replacing the experience or memories. I don't think this will be my last coach, I know so much more now having built and rebuilt so much than I ever could of otherwise.
I'm kinda of the same opinion that there isn't much to be afraid of with a high mileage coach.
I would not be afraid of or mind doing an inframe rebuild on a Series 60. Hardest part would be getting the engine cradle in and out of the coach. Kinda need a forklift or at least a good crane for that. Once you had the engine cradle out, sitting on some stands, it would be easier to do the inframe than doing it in a truck.
Inframe kits aren't cheap, but they won't break the bank either. A big part of the cost of doing a rebuild is the labor a shop charges. Series 60 parts are pretty reasonable. It costs a lot less to rebuild a Series 60 than it does a 6.0 or 6.4L Powerstroke or even a Sprinter engine.
The transmission is the big apprehension for me. If I had a bus with a blown B500, I'd probably drop an Ultrashift 2 into it. Or maybe a 12 speed ZF. Or one of the new Endurant automated transmissions, but I think it takes a lot to make one of those work. I doubt the B500 would go back in. If I wasn't concerned about someone else driving it or selling it someday, I'd probably drop a Super 10 manual transmission into it.
Brakes, airbags, suspension bushings are normal wear items. They will need doing no matter what.
Rust is the thing I want to avoid most, followed by extensive body work.
So the question becomes... if the quality of the work on a converted coach isn't that great and you have to redo a lot of or all of the work anyway... what is the advantage of getting a converted coach ? Why not get a seated coach and do it right ?
Quote from: someguy on August 12, 2020, 12:21:16 PM
...So the question becomes... if the quality of the work on a converted coach isn't that great and you have to redo a lot of or all of the work anyway... what is the advantage of getting a converted coach ? Why not get a seated coach and do it right ?
Then find a converted coach with a verifiable/known quality. They are out there.
Lots of things wear out or fatigue on a bus (or any vehicle) once the miles get as high as you're talking about. Will they continue to work as a bus conversion? Probably, but I'm thinking it may not be worth the time/effort/expense necessary to get things where you want them.
Our first bus (a 1964 GM 4106) was in pretty good condition for an existing conversion. We paid $14,000 for it and planned to spend a few years fixing things up and updating the interior. Some hidden problems that had to be addressed ended up costing quite a bit right away to make it safe to operate and useful for camping.
Our current bus (a 1974 GMC 4108a) we bought a few years ago with only 41,000 original miles. There were problems, largely due to lack of use. Nothing really catastrophic, more just major annoyances. We paid considerably more for this bus, but it was largely usable from day one after a few plumbing and electrical issues were dealt with. No matter the problems we've had to repair on this bus, it will likely be on the road longer than any late model bus with 500k - 750k (or more) miles when converted.
There are some rare high-mileage buses like Jim's out there in good condition because they have been maintained. There are also some great existing conversions out there which have been well-maintained and which have far fewer miles on them. It all depends on what you're looking for and how hard you're willing to hunt.
Quote from: richard5933 on August 12, 2020, 12:38:08 PM
Then find a converted coach with a verifiable/known quality. They are out there.
I'm looking for a 2004 or newer Prevost H3-45 or a 2006 or newer MCI E/J4500 with a slide. What do you think a known quality one of those sells for ? A mint. Everyone wants one of those.
And Chief's conversion was done by American Country Couch. It's not like that isn't a reputable name. And if we are going to say ACC isn't reputable, then which one is, short of Marathon, etc ?
I'm going to end up buying a seated bus and doing my own conversion.
Not exactly sure why Chief did a total gut job on his. I didn't watch everything but it sounded like he was chasing water leaks.
Regardless, when I say verifiable/known quality I'm not talking about any particular builder or company. I'm talking about things like having as complete a maintenance record as possible, having a full inspection done with the bus on a lift, etc.
If you're looking specifically for a late model Prevost of MCI with a slide, then you already know that you are either going to pay now or you're going to pay later. But, you're going to pay. Could be with money, could be with time, could be with effort. Could be all of the above. Guess which way one goes depends on his priorities and available resources. For me, part of the equation is also deciding whether I can keep interest long enough to follow the chosen path and do a good job with it.
Quote from: richard5933 on August 12, 2020, 01:20:29 PM
Not exactly why Chief did a total gut job on his. I didn't watch everything but it sounded like he was chasing water leaks.
And he didn't like the layout. And the Heart inverters were old and inefficient. And the battery system wasn't up to the task. And... He could have easily fixed the water leaks without completely tearing apart the coach.
His conversion is a late 90s. A lot has changed in RV tech since then.
I thought an inframe was a rebuild with engine in the bus. Once it is out on the shop floor, it is an out of frame rebuild. Anyway, pulling the engine out of the bus isn't difficult: you need a cart to pull it onto with a come-along. Or a pallet jack or skid steer or fork lift. A shop crane is good to pull the transmission off the engine.
Speaking of transmissions, what's wrong with the Allison B500? It is very common in buses from the 90s up to today. It is up to it's 5th generation now. It is a very good transmission. Smooth shifting. Just put is in D and go. It always knows what gear to be in, up or down.
You will be much farther ahead getting into an already converted coach. Keep looking: you will find one that is close to what you need. It could be a MCi, a Prevost, or a high end motor home.
You are overthinking the whole thing. You are trying to re invent the basic motor home. Just go find a nice one, and enjoy camping...
The 5th generation B500 controls the engine it tells the engine what it wants or needs they are amazing,my 4060 the only way I know it shifts is watching it change gears on the SilverLeaf.I never heard of or saw a American Country Coach conversion
It's good to gain as much knowledge as possible before any kind of a conversion, bus-to-RV as much as any, and there are a very wide range of systems involved. Much more so than with say something like an engine conversion. But you have to understand that it can all get way out of hand all too quickly and the scope can balloon out way beyond what you would expect any average person to deal with. For that reason, for someone who has no prior experience with this sort of thing it's a very good strategy to do everything possible to limit the scope of the job initially and then consider coming back to certain areas later if needed. Not only does this simplify the job but you may find the extra enhancements are not needed after all.
Sure we all love the top end conversions, with all the shiny bling, the extra rooms, the deep pile carpet with floor heating and marble everything. And if you can comfortably drop a half mil into it why not? Or if you are the old time construction expert do it yourself. For us mere mortals though it's often a good idea to set our sights a little lower.
I'm a guru of V8 engine conversions for small British cars and I constantly encourage people to keep their conversions simple. I've been a pioneer in that field and obviously do not practice what I preach, but over the decades I've gradually begun to realize that it is often better to enjoy the use of something that is less than ideal, than it is to strive to create that ideal and not get to enjoy it. I think that principle applies even more in bus conversions than it does there.
Jim
The first part of the job is to select the coach. If you don't have the coach at least picked out you never will be able to determine the actions needed in anything more than a general way. Lots of pros and cons for each brand but picking a brand and a model is the first big step. Are you really, really, and I mean REALLY comfortable with equipment like CAN bus networks and associated types of communication gear that will be found in the newer coaches? If not thoroughly versed in these systems that can be a nightmare well beyond your wildest imaginings. (Did you know that there are some cars that become totaled if the communications cable is cut? Unbelievable.)
The value point of different brands will be a bit different, if that is a concern. For instance, with MCI a mid 90's coach should have the DDEC4 which is from all accounts reliable and relatively easy to deal with, and in other ways results in about the best bang for your buck. Modern enough to have most of the goodness, old enough to be affordable and not use bleeding edge technology which is always expensive and difficult. Prevost tends to cost more for the same stuff but it's sort of like designer jeans. Your @$# looks just as good in the Wranglers but doesn't have the fancy design on the pockets. It's your time and money, spend it well.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 12, 2020, 08:56:07 PM
Are you really, really, and I mean REALLY comfortable with equipment like CAN bus networks and associated types of communication gear that will be found in the newer coaches? If not thoroughly versed in these systems that can be a nightmare well beyond your wildest imaginings. (Did you know that there are some cars that become totaled if the communications cable is cut? Unbelievable.)
Yes I am. Have done some CAN bus hacking as a matter of fact.
Guess what ? All newer vehicles have CAN buses in them. Several, in fact. And if the right CAN bus goes down, for whatever reason, the vehicle won't run.
BTW, how is the throttle cable on your Series 60 working these days ? Oh, I forgot... there isn't one. Fuel control is electronic on the Series 60. And the C13. And the ISM/ISX. I'll take any one of these engines over a GM 2 stroke, any day. And I grew up around GM 2 strokes, know them like the back of my hand.
Given the choice of troubleshooting a thick cable full of individual wires and a CAN Bus connecting 2 modules, I'll take the CAN Bus every day of the week.
Quotebut over the decades I've gradually begun to realize that it is often better to enjoy the use of something that is less than ideal, than it is to strive to create that ideal and not get to enjoy it. I think that principle applies even more in bus conversions than it does there.
I've only been around a few years but what seems to be true is there is a much higher number of stalled bus conversions in process and those being sold unfinished than the number of current and active DIY from scratch projects.
Upon reflection the biggest sigh of relief for me making the decision to buy converted is time. Massive time gained for using and enjoying the bus from day one. Massive money saved buying already converted vs build from scratch. It is impossible to build for same or less than buy with same features expected in a full conversion. And not an empty shell with a bucket for a toilet; remember guys that dumbass who got banned for saying it was fine to dump his bucket of crap out the window. LOL
We converted ours in about 2 MN years, could have done it in 12 or 18 months in a warmer climate.
I felt like I had a Boulder chasing me as my kids were getting older. One of the primary reasons for doing this was to spend time with them and make memories.
Sure looking back if I'd have had more time and or money, I'd have done things differently. I'm satisfied with what we have because we're using it.
When the kids are grown, I'd love to find a late 90s prevost 40 or maybe 45 foot, and spend the time to do it right or find something done right. I'd like to work from the road ( computer/desk job) so having some dedicated work space would be ideal.
CAN systems are great but on the newer buses you have 4 to 5 separate computers with a CAN system and it can be a nightmare without the exspensive software to find a problem ,you cannot even add lights unless you have a designated wire that was programed into the system on Prevost and MCI buses
Quote from: luvrbus on August 13, 2020, 07:53:07 AM
...you cannot even add lights unless you have a designated wire that was programed into the system on Prevost and MCI buses
My son is a software engineer and even he wouldn't want anything to do with a CAN bus ...bus. Me? Forgetaboutit. But hey, if that's your bag knock yourself out. You can tell us all about it. BTW, mid '90 MCI was S60 and B500. Just thought you might want to know.
Jim
Without a multiplex system these buses would be a huge pile of spaghetti wiring. Even worse, the system would probably use relays or proprietary modules to implement various logic functions.
The Vansco Multiplex system used on some MCI and Prevost buses looks to be pretty good. I can't comment on the early multiplex system MCI used. (Aka, the "gold bricks")
You can always add a light to a Multiplex current sensed circuit by using a relay to turn it on and off. You can add it directly to a non current sensed circuit. The advantage of a current sensed circuit is that the bus knows when a light is burnt our or there is a short in the circuit.
J1939 is an open protocol. There are many inexpensive adapters and software tools to work with it. Furthermore, it looks like MCI and Vansco are pretty good about supplying documentation.
Mci and Prevost both use more than 1 module ,the one I service for a casino each module has 28 inputs and 20 out puts on each module,they all have LED's for input,output,power and network which helps with trouble shooting and you are not going to do anything without software with the network light on, I have had to try and remove a cat,eyes from modules before on a H-45 with 4 modules ended up replacing the bad module,for treat try trouble shooting CAN on a Vanhool
MCI offers training on the multiplex system for 3rd party technicians that work on their buses.
Are you using the Vansco software ? Should be pretty easy to see what is going on right from a laptop.
FYI, MCI started using the Vansco Multiplex system in 2003 on bus #62032.
BTW, Vansco offers the software on a 30 day trial.
When we were upgrading from the Class C and decided on a Bus, in my opinion there really was only one choice, we were going to buy a seated Coach, and do a ground up conversion.
I did look at a few previously converted Buses and knew if I opted for a previously converted Bus it would still be a complete gut and rebuild.
We had the advantage of not being under any time table, we are not full timers and still had the Class C to use, I knew I could not afford a coach of the level we wanted, so we opted to make payments, IE: slowly buy the materials we needed over time as money became available.
The wife had a very specific look and design she wanted, we were also looking a few years down the road to when I retire we will probably live part of the year in the Bus, in the warmer months we want to go up north and return to the house here in Florida for the winter.
Another consideration is I love a project always have a number of things I am working on or building and this looked like the Granddaddy of all projects, this would be the project that I could use all the skills I had learned.
One of the things I would do different, knowing what I know now is a more complete Mechanical inspection, although I did a pretty thorough inspection and had a professional Bus driver friend of mine test drive it, as the conversion progressed I found a number of hidden things that were unbelievably bad, I don't believe the Coach had been maintained at all in the last 10 years of its life as a commercial bus, one thing you need to remember, if this bus was in perfect shape they never would have retired it and sold it for $5000.
When we first got the Class C we had gutted and remodeled it, so we had some idea what we were getting into.
One of the better decisions we made was to build it in such a manner that it became usable early in the build out part and we were able to test most of the layout and systems as they became available, each time we used it, the passion to work on it was rekindled, The wife's list to start camping was a short list, Bed, Toilet, Sink and living in Florida, AC, the shower was a want but not a must have.
This allowed us to determine a few of the mistakes and back out, redesign or redo them before that became a major project in itself.
Another good thing is, I built and installed everything, I know where everything is and how it works, have taken hundreds of pictures, when there is an issue, I can fix it, on the flip side, I cannot blame it on the previous owner.
We started the conversion in DEC 2015, although very usable at this point and approaching a somewhat finished state, still working on it and probably always will.
To Sum it up we are very happy with our decision to buy a seated coach and build it ourselves.
No remorse, no regrets.
Peter
"system would probably use relays or proprietary modules to implement various logic functions. "
OMG , not relays and propriety pmodules.
Training come as part of the sale on MCI and Prevost MCI comes to you Prevost you go to the nearest service center.Prevost offers no 3rd party training any longer and has been that way for awhile now
Here's what $100K gets these days. 1993 H3-45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqAgX4Zm3M
What do you think ?
That same coach with a slide fetches $150K.
Quote from: peterbylt on August 13, 2020, 01:36:09 PM
When we were upgrading from the Class C and decided on a Bus, in my opinion there really was only one choice, we were going to buy a seated Coach, and do a ground up conversion.
I did look at a few previously converted Buses and knew if I opted for a previously converted Bus it would still be a complete gut and rebuild.
Why ?
QuoteAnother consideration is I love a project always have a number of things I am working on or building and this looked like the Granddaddy of all projects, this would be the project that I could use all the skills I had learned.
Do you still feel this way about it ?
Quoteas the conversion progressed I found a number of hidden things that were unbelievably bad, I don%u2019t believe the Coach had been maintained at all in the last 10 years of its life as a commercial bus, one thing you need to remember, if this bus was in perfect shape they never would have retired it and sold it for $5000.
Tell us more.
QuoteOne of the better decisions we made was to build it in such a manner that it became usable early in the build out part and we were able to test most of the layout and systems as they became available, each time we used it, the passion to work on it was rekindled.
I agree with this. In business we call this test early, test often.
QuoteThe wife%u2019s list to start camping was a short list, Bed, Toilet, Sink and living in Florida, AC, the shower was a want but not a must have.
This allowed us to determine a few of the mistakes and back out, redesign or redo them before that became a major project in itself.
Smart !
I was thinking the same thing. Once it is gutted and the new floor is down, you've essentially got a big tent. Throw in a couch, table and bed and start camping in it to get a feel for things. My only worry would be cutting the floor for something like a toilet and then moving it later. But better to find that out during the tenting phase than after it is "done".
Quote from: someguy on August 13, 2020, 04:58:43 PM
Here's what $100K gets these days. 1993 H3-45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqAgX4Zm3M
What do you think ?
That same coach with a slide fetches $150K.
Has a weak 8v92 DDEC ,funny to see Andrew a detailer pitching a bus for sale I guess he is expanding into info commercials
He does that a lot.
Yes, a weak 8V92. An engine swap is probably in order. $10K and a bunch of work. And no slide. And an ugly interior. And the systems in it are all 27 years old. Where does one start ?
"Has a weak 8v92 DDEC ,funny to see Andrew a detailer pitching a bus for sale I guess he is expanding into info commercials"
He does a lot of theses videos. I find him a little annoying.
I'll keep my Model 15 Eagle and pass on the opportunity to spend too much on a bus. It could be had for less, but I don't want it. ;)
Quote from: Fred Mc on August 13, 2020, 06:39:59 PM
"Has a weak 8v92 DDEC ,funny to see Andrew a detailer pitching a bus for sale I guess he is expanding into info commercials"
He does a lot of theses videos. I find him a little annoying.
I never knew he made video's lol but I never watch the bs YouTube either ,he is a hella of detailer looks like he waved his magic wand on that one it didn't look that good the last time I saw it
2000 Prevost Liberty Lady. S60. No slides. Shows 10/10. $169K.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF99z5qNm2o
Quote from: someguy on August 13, 2020, 07:17:43 PM
2000 Prevost Liberty Lady. S60. No slides. Shows 10/10. $169K.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF99z5qNm2o
You are not going to find many Prevost with slides till 2002 any Prevost with slides before 2002 were a add on by a converter and some had problems big problems.Conversion prices are up 15% now since fuel is cheap but that will change when fuel hits 4 bucks a gal it always does
All the more reasons to buy a seated coach and do my own conversion.
I thought that these things were immune to the price of fuel ? Everyone always says "If you have to ask..."
LOL.
Quote from: someguy on August 13, 2020, 05:03:44 PM
Quote
When we were upgrading from the Class C and decided on a Bus, in my opinion there really was only one choice, we were going to buy a seated Coach, and do a ground up conversion.
I did look at a few previously converted Buses and knew if I opted for a previously converted Bus it would still be a complete gut and rebuild.
Why ?
The previously converted coaches that we looked at in our Price range were all dated, deteriorated and worn out.
I probably could use a lot of the components from the systems, tanks, generator, load centers, a lot would need to be upgraded and changed, IE: incandescent lights vs LED, Spray Foam vs fiberglass insulation.
The quality and way the wiring was run, to accommodate my future plans for automation and placement of electronics, the current state of electronics could not have even been considered when the coaches that we were looking at were built.
The wife really needed to be onboard in this endeavor, I gave her free rein on the design although she had to stay within certain physical and monetary restrictions, Her ideas did not fit into someone else's design.
Quote
Another consideration is I love a project always have a number of things I am working on or building and this looked like the Granddaddy of all projects, this would be the project that I could use all the skills I had learned.
Do you still feel this way about it ?
Absolutely, probably the most rewarding and fun project I have ever done.
Quote
as the conversion progressed I found a number of hidden things that were unbelievably bad, I don%u2019t believe the Coach had been maintained at all in the last 10 years of its life as a commercial bus, one thing you need to remember, if this bus was in perfect shape they never would have retired it and sold it for $5000.
Tell us more.
See this topic, I have to say finding this issue was the low point of the entire build, once a course of action was determined it was all good from there.
This forum and the awesome amount of bus experience and information helped guide me through this, what seemed to me at the time, overwhelming problem.
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=34192.0 (https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=34192.0)
Peter
Quote from: someguy on August 13, 2020, 04:58:43 PM
Here's what $100K gets these days. 1993 H3-45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqAgX4Zm3M
What do you think ?
That same coach with a slide fetches $150K.
Know where you can pick up a 1991 XL with 97,000 mile 8V92TA motor for $50,000. Prevost maintained. ;D I'll have to pay Gary his juice if i sell. ;)
Quote from: muldoonman on August 15, 2020, 04:32:31 AM
Know where you can pick up a 1991 XL with 97,000 mile 8V92TA motor for $50,000. Prevost maintained. ;D I'll have to pay Gary his juice if i sell. ;)
Glen you better be careful someone is going to buy that bus then you will riding a bicycle to the Gulf coast,lol 50k you could show that in receipts from Stewart/Stevenson and Prevost in Houston run a ad it will sell in day it's a nice conversion
Quote from: muldoonman on August 15, 2020, 04:32:31 AM
Know where you can pick up a 1991 XL with 97,000 mile 8V92TA motor for $50,000. Prevost maintained. ;D I'll have to pay Gary his juice if i sell. ;)
Sorry, not interested in a 2 stroke. Looking for a smooth side, newer and a slide.
I've got a couple seated coaches in the cross hairs, but not sure I'll pull the trigger right away.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 15, 2020, 05:42:45 AM
Glen you better be careful someone is going to buy that bus then you will riding a bicycle to the Gulf coast,lol 50k you could show that in receipts from Stewart/Stevenson and Prevost in Houston run a ad it will sell in day it's a nice conversion
Yeah Cliff haven't listed it yet but will soon. I keep it up no doubt and it'll be a good one for someone. Heck we have been locked down with this Covid Crap and haven't run it but just to the inspection station for the tags last month. OTR didn't work or light was a flashing on AC and was blowing semi cool. . Low freon. Always something with these. Think I'll get a pop up tent trailer or trade for a tiny class C and just smile at the bus owners when they pass and look down at me and feel sorry for us. 8)
Quote from: lostagain on August 12, 2020, 05:11:03 PM
I thought an inframe was a rebuild with engine in the bus. Once it is out on the shop floor, it is an out of frame rebuild.
An inframe means the bock stays in the chassis and isn't sent to the machine shop for line boring, etc. An inframe is generally lower end bearings plus sleeves and pistons. Sometimes head work.
I don't think there is enough room to do an inframe in a bus chassis. Certainly it would be much easier to remove the engine cradle which would make an inframe ridiculously easy and nice to do.
I'd still call a rebuild with the engine cradle removed an in frame because the engine isn't unbolted from its engine mounts and no major machining is done to the block.
In frame rebuilds are done on buses all the time.
After 38 years of running the same bus and eventually a tired ole' engine - we did an in-frame rebuild - Lower end rods & crank bearings, new liners, pistons, rings, & head job - runs like it is new, again! Engine was totally repainted & never left the bus. :^
Quote from: richard5933 on August 15, 2020, 06:19:21 PM
In frame rebuilds are done on buses all the time.
,
Inflame are the biggest waste of money on a engine you can spend unless it a very low mileage engine that had a failure,DD never made a inframe kit you bought it piece by piece I very seldom will do one .it's coming out so I can check everything and go back to the OEM specs
We consider every penny we put into our in -frame money very well spent and yes there are in-frame kits for 2 stroke DDs. The only reason we piece mealed for parts was to take advantage of genuine original DD parts when we could. The proof is in the pudding & OTR experience before & after an in-frame rebuild is testament to what it achieved & the only evidence we deem necessary. Extremely satisfied to the reborn performance it achieved. :^
Quote from: dtcerrato on August 16, 2020, 07:32:27 AM
We consider every penny we put into our in -frame money very well spent and yes there are in-frame kits for 2 stroke DDs. The only reason we piece mealed for parts was to take advantage of genuine original DD parts when we could. The proof is in the pudding & OTR experience before & after an in-frame rebuild is testament to what it achieved & the only evidence we deem necessary. Extremely satisfied to the reborn performance it achieved. :^
Inframe kits are not available for DD using DD parts is what I said Dan some dealers like Pacific Diesel will sell you a kit but it is going to be a F/P the lesser of the evil kits sold today now they send don't even take the time to match the sets the pistons and liners come in separate boxes lol and they preached for years don't mix the piston up from the liner it came in ,Bus people like the price they cost around $250 a set vs $500 for a Detroit piston and liner set,They buy you time usually they will last a 100,000 miles then the zinc coating starts to peel off the skirts.other parts wear and there is no way to check those doing a inframe ,people do what they choose all because of cost.At one time way back F/B offered a premium set that was nothing but repacked DD parts I chased one of those a week for Yvans bus and found one in Ohio that had been on the self for 20 years lol and guy sold it to me a good price good luck
It's all a matter of economics isn't it? If you expect the engine to go another quarter or half million miles the extra effort of a full rebuild is justified so that you can measure and catch any irregularity. But if the goal is 100k+ an in-frame makes sense provided the only thing wrong with the engine is a lack of compression. I did an in-frame on a C4 caterpillar dozer once and although the pony was badly in need of a rebuild, provided I could get that to start the main engine did quite well. I did the landscaping that I required and sold the dozer. Let the new owner worry about the pony. Sort of the same thing in a way.
Jim
Quote from: luvrbus on August 16, 2020, 08:09:24 AM
Dan some dealers like Pacific Diesel will sell you a kit but it is going to be a F/P the lesser of the evil kits sold today now they send don't even take the time to match the sets the pistons and liners come in separate boxes lol
That is because the tolerances of today's manufacturing and QC processes are so good that they don't need to do individual matches anymore. Every piston fits every liner in the kit because all the liners and pistons are the same. They probably sort liners into size groups and build kits of a group of the same. Ditto for pistons.
Quoteand they preached for years don't mix the piston up from the liner it came in
20 years ago, yes. Processes and times have changed.
QuoteBus people like the price they cost around $250 a set vs $500 for a Detroit piston and liner set,They buy you time usually they will last a 100,000 miles then the zinc coating starts to peel off the skirts.
Zinc coated piston skirts ?
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 16, 2020, 08:38:55 AM
It's all a matter of economics isn't it? If you expect the engine to go another quarter or half million miles the extra effort of a full rebuild is justified so that you can measure and catch any irregularity. But if the goal is 100k+ an in-frame makes sense provided the only thing wrong with the engine is a lack of compression. I did an in-frame on a C4 caterpillar dozer once and although the pony was badly in need of a rebuild, provided I could get that to start the main engine did quite well. I did the landscaping that I required and sold the dozer. Let the new owner worry about the pony. Sort of the same thing in a way.
Jim
Provided the rest of the engine is in good shape (head, turbo, cam, injectors, mainly) an inframe in a modern 4 cycle diesel is good for way more than 100,000 miles.
Wasn't 20 years more like 4 years ago,McBees still send their inside the liners but like all offshore crap the outside diameter could be off,LOL I have 2 F/P liners setting in the floor to send back it would take a press to load a piston in both of those oh yea they are close