I'd like to do some stress analysis on the J4500 frames.
Could anyone supply me with measurements of the various members ? Lengths, size, thickness.
I'm starting with a 2D analysis of the stress in the side truss. I want to investigate what happens when a slideout is added.
Thanks.
IIRC, much of that info is in the parts books. They break it down to every nut and bolt.
Quote from: ktmossman on August 09, 2020, 03:50:40 PM
IIRC, much of that info is in the parts books. They break it down to every nut and bolt.
I haven't seen the dimensions of any of the structural elements. If you have, I'd love to know what section they are in.
That sort of stuff is likely going to take a call to MCI.
There's no reason for the common bus fleet to need that information to maintain the coach?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I'm hoping that somone has the walls torn apart on their conversion and can take some measurements.
J uses the bridge truss design the framing for the slides just transfers the stress on good slides,the framing on the Happy Jacks used in 5 th wheels and entry level motor homes don't have much stress they are nothing but a hole in wall,you need to buy a bus all this analyzing is going to make you a basket case in a year jump in and go for it like the rest of us the factories engineers have done the work for you
Someone had to say it, LOL Yea Clifford ;)
Quote from: luvrbus on August 09, 2020, 08:19:48 PM
J uses the bridge truss design the framing for the slides just transfers the stress on good slides,
Absolutely not !
The top image is my unscaled drawing of the side of a J. You remove all the strength of the truss when you remove part of it to install a slide. I am not aware of any slide out system wherein the slide itself makes up for the removed section.
In all applications that I am aware of an external truss must be built up to replace the section of truss that has been removed. This is the case with the factory Prevost slides wherein the strength removed from the sidewall is replaced with strength in the baggage compartment.
Quotethe framing on the Happy Jacks used in 5 th wheels and entry level motor homes don't have much stress they are nothing but a hole in wall,
I have a 5th wheel with 3 slides in it. 5th wheels and entry level motor homes have a stand alone truck like C channel frame that does not get cut or weakened by the slideout. That is definitely not the case with the bus "frame".
Quoteyou need to buy a bus all this analyzing is going to make you a basket case in a year jump in and go for it like the rest of us the factories engineers have done the work for you
The factory engineers have not "done the work for" anyone putting a slide in an MCI.
I'm in no rush to do anything until I figure out what I want to do. Proper preparation prevents piss poor performance. With dimensions, I can do a rough analysis on a frame in a couple hours. It is time well spent.
When you discover that the J defies the engineering tests, and by calculation, shouldn't be capable of holding its own self up off the road, never mind a slide...
Then what?
Fill in the appropriate baggage bay door areas with structure and get building?
The mileage typically put on a bus conversion, it will matter little whether you are too heavy, too light, whether it will pass an Altoona test... the big engine down the back will push it along.
If these calculations are part of the hobby, you will get far more accurate measurements if you go find a coach to measure in person. Big coach body shop, coach wrecking yard, refurbishment shop, someone will have a J model eventually, with its pants down.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I know I've seen it in the MCI docs before but I can't find it now. I have most of that structure exposed (from the inside) right now on mine, but it will be Saturday before I have a chance to get back out there. Let me know exactly what dimensions you are looking for and I can get them.
The same outfit in Canada installed slides in the Prevost and MCI till Prevost acquired the company ,all they added was a beam above the baggage compartments and not much of a beam either.Flat floor factory sides were never a option in the Prevost till 2016 and only 1 was available installed in the salon area,Slides in the Prevost factory installed slides are rated for 1500 lbs same,MCI and Prevost both have the same designed frame now that Eagle used since 1957 .I have seen to many slides installed at Newell, Country Coach, Marathon,ForeTravel and HWW so someone did the engineering.I don't how it is now but for years you could only buy the MCI or Prevost with 1 factory installed slide the converter would add 3 HWH slides.I too own a 40 ft 3 axle 5th wheel those slides are not much I wouldn't have another electric slide with a outside flange around the slides
I went with the larger bus specifically to avoid slides. No way a slide equipped bus can have the structural integrity of one without them.
Jim
I installed a kitchen,living room slide in my old MCI 102c3 and never had a problem in the 10 years we ran it down the road
it can be done and it was not that hard
dave
How wide is a window in a E/J ?
Quote from: sledhead on August 10, 2020, 08:39:30 AM
I installed a kitchen,living room slide in my old MCI 102c3 and never had a problem in the 10 years we ran it down the road
it can be done and it was not that hard
Pictures ? How did you reinforce the frame ?
FYI.
See page 8 "Slideout does not play a structural role".
Quote from: someguy on August 16, 2020, 04:19:56 PM
FYI.
See page 8 "Slideout does not play a structural role".
Those are Prevost factory slides what is the point you are not going to call and order a set from Prevost or the HWH hyd slides, you make own or buy Happy Jacks
Quote from: luvrbus on August 16, 2020, 04:35:41 PM
Those are Prevost factory slides what is the point you are not going to call and order a set from Prevost or the HWH hyd slides, you make own or buy Happy Jacks
Who says I am not going to do those things ? All options are open at this point. And I/we can learn from studying what Prevost did.
I could mill something like these up on my milling machine.
https://www.nappco.com/Accuride-AL4120-Super-Heavy-Duty-Slide_p_113.html
https://www.nappco.com/Accuride-AL4140-Super-Heavy-Duty-Slide-_p_114.html
https://forestriverinc.com/brochures/0000/0000SlideOutLippertElectricManual.pdf
https://www.chambrelan.com/guides/telescopic-slides/total-extensions/e1700/
https://www.chambrelan.com/guides/telescopic-slides/total-extensions/e1902/
https://www.chambrelan.com/guides/telescopic-slides/total-extensions/e1012/
https://www.chambrelan.com/guides/telescopic-slides/total-extensions/e1020/
Load capacity on a pair of 900 mm slides is 7mm for a 1200 Kg load.
The load is essentially taken off the slide itself when fully extended because the inner slideout surface is pushed against the inside of the wall frame.
Quote from: someguy on August 16, 2020, 05:10:51 PM
https://forestriverinc.com/brochures/0000/0000SlideOutLippertElectricManual.pdf
There you have the Happyjac cheap @$# slide
Quote from: luvrbus on August 16, 2020, 05:28:28 PM
There you have the Happyjac cheap @$# slide
It would work except that you'd have the slide members down in the bays. The bay doors would have to be cut.
Yep, and it's just that easy isn't it. What could possibly go wrong? Personally, I'm a big fan of, "Hold my beer and watch THIS sh!t."
I'm sure it'll work. You try it first and then we'll all do it.... uh, maybe?
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 16, 2020, 07:10:01 PM
Yep, and it's just that easy isn't it. What could possibly go wrong? Personally, I'm a big fan of, "Hold my beer and watch THIS sh!t."
I'm sure it'll work. You try it first and then we'll all do it.... uh, maybe?
It's a free world. Do whatever you want. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.
@someguy - can you direct me to a post where you provided your overall goals, budget, time, timeframe, working knowledge and experience in nearly all mechanical trades, and large enough and functional workshop?
It's wonderful to start with a blank canvas and grand visions of the possibilities for a ground up DIY but you seem pretty good at research so if you gift yourself enough time to create a detail workplace and estimate, it may help you narrow what fits these constraints, and likely be able to focus on a smaller, practical, and realistic project.
Something like DIY bus slides is a daunting feature, especially one that works well and doesn't leak or have random glitches. I'm a noob busnut, just 3 years here, but probably count on one hand the number of well done DIY slide bus conversions.
Not implying you should't consider this feature but take what is offered here, not as criticism but more a gentle suggestion to thoroughly get a full understanding of everything involved with any aspect of converting the bus.
Thanks for the advice.
Sometimes our minds can dream up things that look great in our visions, but when the reality of actually doing it happens, we find out that there are quite a few details that need to be worked out, and that it is wise to study what other people have done previously. Slide-outs need to be carefully engineered to work well, and they still might leak.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on August 17, 2020, 06:15:08 AM
Slide-outs need to be carefully engineered to work well, and they still might leak.
Yes, all this is true , but I'm glad to see someone thinking out side the box (bus)
Almost everything I did on my s60 install I was told by someone or the other that it would not work.
Looks like it works fine to me...
I won't go into detail yet because we don't have many miles on it but so far things are looking very promising
Including steering as of today.
Just sayin'
It's a "BIG JOB" on par with and very likely more ambitious than either a roof lift or a complete strip and insulate job, plus it includes daunting challenges in terms of motion control, actuation, multiple complex seals, and wiring at least, to say nothing of framing. Not trying to discourage you but the RV conversion is a big job already and this one little add-on may come close to doubling it. That's fine if you have unlimited time and money to throw at it but that's a big luxury for most.
So, if you absolutely must have a slider the best way to get it is to buy it already done. Unless you are just doing this as a challenge and simply have to have the biggest challenge you can find because brother, this one will give it to you.
Hey, I think sliders are cool too. But I'm not about to risk the integrity of my structure or my roof for one. Unless of course you go ahead and build one really fast and cheap, prove us all wrong, make it work perfectly and never leak, we're all envious of you, want one too, and then... eh, maybe? (not)
Jim
People have been installing slides in Eagle buses for 30 years no problems .Gary at B@B in Vegas was a master at it,not far from me is a MCI that is not even road worthy it looks like a pot belly pig and you cannot even open the bay doors.Now no one will sell you a good designed slide with the frames.Any RV with a HWH slide that slide was designed and manufactured for that company and the chassis used lol and you are not going to buy one from HWH.A friend of mine has the first floor level Prevost slide (2015) ever sold. made and installed by Prevost man did they missed that one it has been a disaster on his H-45
QuotePeople have been installing slides in Eagle buses for 30 years no problems .Gary at B@B in Vegas was a master at it
Clifford, like always one can point out an exception like Gary has done it. Well, he is not "people" in this discussion as we are talking about DIY guy with zero slide design and build experience. Yes Gary is a master as he is professional with many years working on bus conversions. Ask him how much he charges for a complete slide job; that will make most think pretty hard about what is involved.
Please share a couple links of fully functional DIY slides. Again, you may provide them but that in no way implies it is a job for an average DIYer. I'd bet there are lots more links showing stalled bus conversion projects, even those not having cut apart the frame to DIY a slider but just normal full bus conversion DIY project are plenty.
Scott(Heather) did a great job showing his full DIY roof raise. Yeah one can do it but if you really study the project it took quite a bit of time and LOTS of extra pairs of hands. It seems so simple until you really study all that is involved.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 17, 2020, 08:47:12 PM
A friend of mine has the first floor level Prevost slide (2015) ever sold. made and installed by Prevost man did they missed that one it has been a disaster on his H-45
Prevost has had about 4 iterations of their slides. Some of them were very complex with rack and pinion drives at each corner, powered locking pins and inflatable seals and a small computer controlling everything. Their flat floor has 6 steps to go from full in to full out.
The early Prevost slide system is one of the reasons I would not purchase an early Prevost conversion.
Don, roof raises are piece of cake ,a guy on this board Robert Glines has installed slides on both his Prevost and built all the components can't get more DYI than that plus he started the mini split craze people said would never work lol me included.The poster we are talking about here I know nothing about his skills who knows he maybe a whiz or a dud only time will tell lol he does spend a lot of time with Google and Youtube some where I never go because you can always find the answer only you are looking for with your ideas it will be there someplace
Quoteroof raises are piece of cake
OK Clifford. Let's just say we can agree to disagree. Guy has been warned and tuff $#!% if he becomes more roadkill on the road to bus conversion nirvana. LOL
Quote from: windtrader on August 17, 2020, 09:53:41 PM
OK Clifford. Let's just say we can agree to disagree. Guy has been warned and tuff $#!% if he becomes more roadkill on the road to bus conversion nirvana. LOL
yes he has been warned of pit falls but he has been on this board since 2006 let him go for it,but if he does I doubt we will ever hear of the ^^^^ ups
Who is this Robert Glines guy and does he have a build thread on his roof raise and slides ?
Edit: found him.
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2023
What exactly is the problem with doing a roof raise ?
My roof raise went good. Also removed 31" out of the middle and added 15" on the back for more motor.
]
Lol the old generation of DYI bus converters could care less about posting stuff on you tube or F/B of their build they are tucked away in closet on 35 mm film with the BCM magazines or if you had a question you had their number
Quote from: luvrbus on August 18, 2020, 07:32:37 AM
]
Lol the old generation of DYI bus converters could care less about posting stuff on you tube or F/B of their build they are tucked away in closet on 35 mm film with the BCM magazines or if you had a question you had their number
Pretty accurate, except all of my BCM Magazines from 1992 on are in binders on the shelf.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on August 18, 2020, 08:06:44 AM
Pretty accurate, except all of my BCM Magazines from 1992 on are in binders on the shelf.
I gave all mine away just kept the one for my Eagle
I know nothing about doing a slide except what I've read on here but my entire life has been dedicated to building mechanical devices, generally original prototypes, and I have learned a thing or two along the way. I can say that for this to work the very first requirement is to do a structural analysis of the bus being used. Here is a good example of why you shouldn't just cut a gaping huge hole in the side and go from there:
Many buses today use a variation of a space frame type structure, which is to say that the loads are largely carried by the outside members as opposed to a rigid central ladder type frame and this is done partly to remove weight and partly to increase rigidity. Automotive engineers have long known that the strongest and lightest structure is a very large diameter tube with a thin wall so here is the example. You can take an empty soda can, set it on the ground, put one foot on it and if you are careful you can put your entire weight on it and it will support you. Then if you tap the side of it with your finger or have someone else tap it with a stick it will immediately collapse to a crumpled stack less than 1/2" tall. Great strength but very susceptible to structural damage. This illustrates why changes to this type of frame can be risky. What would we have to do to the side of the soda can to let us cut a large window in the side? And would that change affect hidden concerns such as maybe vibration and harmonics? Would our reinforcement stand the test of time?
Now it's true that a bus frame is not a soda can. But if you look at the location, size and weight of the frame components in relation to the whole it really isn't that far off. Furthermore it is a complex 3 wall structure with a great number of loaded members. Sure there is a safety factor built in but don't you want to keep that? So you might want to bone up on your FEA and then map out all of the bus structure first, including all struts and gussets.
The manufacturer has that information on file of course so for them the task is much easier. I'm not sure they will give it up though, I know I wouldn't. Or you can go into it blindly and take your chances. Anyone here feel that is a formula for success? No? Well no surprise there.
Jim
The best source for scoping out structural changes in truss framed coaches are books by Dave Galey, who is an Architectural Engineer. We have not heard much about him lately, I'm not sure if he is still with us, but his book "The Bus Converter's Bible", published in 1995, is a good start. I got my copy from him personally in 1996 at one of the BCM Conventions. His coaches were Eagles, but his knowledge applies to other makes. In the case of an Eagle, the framework would be continued under a slide-out in the baggage bay area. You can not cut into a truss frame without making up the strength elsewhere.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 18, 2020, 08:25:27 AMI can say that for this to work the very first requirement is to do a structural analysis of the bus being used.
Gee, why didn't I think of that ? ;)
Quote from: DoubleEagle on August 18, 2020, 09:02:02 AM
The best source for scoping out structural changes in truss framed coaches are books by Dave Galey, who is an Architectural Engineer. We have not heard much about him lately, I'm not sure if he is still with us, but his book "The Bus Converter's Bible", published in 1995, is a good start. I got my copy from him personally in 1996 at one of the BCM Conventions. His coaches were Eagles, but his knowledge applies to other makes. In the case of an Eagle, the framework would be continued under a slide-out in the baggage bay area. You can not cut into a truss frame without making up the strength elsewhere.
A little tid bit it took MCI and Prevost years to come around to the Eagle design which they used since 1957 same with the Independent front suspension too
Walter,Dave a long time friend was a electrical engineer he's been quite ever since Roberta passing a few years back,Doing a slide in Eagle is not as hard as other buses I need to check on Dave it's been a few years since I have.Art and Cindy Wales Eagle owners lives close by him and checks on him from titme to to time Dave is smart guy the dumbest thing he ever did was when he bought the Prevost but he didn't keep it very long till he purchased lowly class C motor home
Quote from: someguy on August 18, 2020, 10:08:27 AM
Gee, why didn't I think of that ? ;)
Eagles don't require much they have used the same bridge truss frame since 1957 and independent front suspension.40 years down the road it dawned on MCI and Prevost Eagle had it right so lets build our like that
So did you ever come up with the construction details? More to the point, have you decided what coach to buy?
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 18, 2020, 11:16:53 AM
So did you ever come up with the construction details? More to the point, have you decided what coach to buy?
Moi ?
I'm still waiting for frame dimensions so I can do some analysis. I'm also looking at slide mechanisms.
I'll be purchasing an MCI E or J 4500, as my profile description states.
Well good luck with it. As Bob said the slide will take more time than the rest of the build put together. But maybe you just work fast. At least you seem to have all the answers so that's got to help. Probably the most essential requirement is the determination and perseverance to see it through to the end. If you have that it's half the battle.
Those new coaches do look nice. They weren't designed to be turned into RVs though so you may find some unpleasant surprises. Pretty complex compared to a DDEC4 vintage coach. Even more compared to the older ones. But the good thing is that if you can pull this off you will have all the good stuff like air leveling and aux heat and a great engine and drivetrain. If you've been around here since '05 you should by now have some idea what you are getting into.
Jim
yup slides can't be done ?
here are some pics of the slide in the MCI102c3 and there is a split unit a/c above the front windshield as well that can't be done as well and I did this in 2005 started and finished the coach build in 11 months from a full seated bus
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qv23NNsTDpKxKtY98
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XAisX2zXh6AsBss5A
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rog9Te1foGVFJkSs6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JsBDQQHq24gJhWDB9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YK7CDNEBTCTLJxvC6
yup tell a bus nut it can't be done and wait and see what happens
dave
"Now it's true that a bus frame is not a soda can."
I always refer to my GM 4106 as being built like a pop can.
Ok someguy, as you see there are a lot of different opinions, just look at the Eagle world
To list 2 buses Wayne Schell and Kentucky Steves buses
One has 4 slides, the other none.
It's a bus conversion because we can build what we want.
Quote from: sledhead on August 18, 2020, 04:47:34 PM
yup tell a bus nut it can't be done and wait and see what happens
dave
My thoughts exactly
Some guy, I'd like to know more about what you know about steel.
Are you a welder? Almost anybody can weld, that won't cut it. You need to be a
welder if you are, you'll know what that means
Just curious
Quote from: luvrbus on August 18, 2020, 10:27:17 AM
Walter,Dave a long time friend was a electrical engineer
Cliff, you might be thinking of George Myers, who is an Electrical Engineer.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on August 18, 2020, 07:37:04 PM
Cliff, you might be thinking of George Myers, who is an Electrical Engineer.
Could be but I recall Dave telling me he was electrical engineer with a degree from Oklahoma U or Oklahoma State,he published his books under the name of Winlock which was his name,He was a sharp guy I have seen Eagles with rust but he bought one the friggn bays fell off, took him awhile but he finished it and installed a 8v92 engine and drove it for years .He lives in Sun City Ca I will try and reach him or I may just drive down since I would like to see him if he is still around and I hope he is
Quote from: 6805eagleguy on August 18, 2020, 07:30:37 PM
Ok someguy, as you see there are a lot of different opinions, just look at the Eagle world
To list 2 buses Wayne Schell and Kentucky Steves buses
One has 4 slides, the other none.
It's a bus conversion because we can build what we want.
My thoughts exactly
Some guy, I'd like to know more about what you know about steel.
Are you a welder? Almost anybody can weld, that won't cut it. You need to be a welder if you are, you'll know what that means
Just curious
Doing a slide on the later MCI or Prevost he is going to have stainless and steel to contend with lol where a old Eagle just rusted mild steel.Steve had a lot of set backs in the last 6 or 7 years but with his determination he finished that Eagle
Quote from: sledhead on August 18, 2020, 04:47:34 PM
yup slides can't be done ?
...
yup tell a bus nut it can't be done and wait and see what happens
dave
LOL. Cheers, Dave.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 17, 2020, 09:41:45 PM
Don, roof raises are piece of cake ,a guy on this board Robert Glines has installed slides on both his Prevost and built all the components can't get more DYI than that plus he started the mini split craze people said would never work lol me included.The poster we are talking about here I know nothing about his skills who knows he maybe a whiz or a dud only time will tell lol he does spend a lot of time with Google and Youtube some where I never go because you can always find the answer only you are looking for with your ideas it will be there someplace
Yup I have seen both of Bob's Prevosts with home built slides (and other awesome unique stuff like the center island), and both very well done! Bob's a down to earth good ol' boy who will sit down and tell you or show you every last little thing he's done on his home builds in detail. But I seriously doubt he'd tolerate "Someguy's" arrogance long enough to show him anything but the door!
If you will notice Ol' Bob's been pretty quite about all this as I think he's already decided he doesn't wish to deal with the all knowing attitude from someone who only shows what he's found on the internet and no real world experience, or accomplishments! (but honestly I can't speak for Bob, but I do know how he thinks! I know at the Evansville bus rally he let/helped me take the auxiliary air compressor out of his coach and take it to Ned in KY where he lost his main compressor in route to the rally.)
I can't emphasize enough to "Someguy" to learn to tone it down and show a little respect and he'll get far more help than he could imagine. His I know more than you attitude is keeping him from getting real world advice from guys that have been there done that.
Like Clifford, everything Clifford tells him he come's back with a smart @$# reply trying to show he "out knows" Clifford!
Personally I don't know why Clifford's still putting up with the arrogance,
or is it ignorance?[/i
;D BK ;D
Answer him and keeps him busy on Google ,like the injector on the DDEC ends up being a MUI,took him a whole page to get that point
Personally I still think he's a troll. Notice he hasn't said a word lately about buying a bus. I'll believe that when I see it. All this big talk doesn't mean a thing, and the attitude seems calculated to create controversy. Hey, it's what trolls do.
Jim
I suspect that he has experience with other boards that did not appreciate his attitude. It might explain why he is so anonymous: no name, no location, no bus, no gratitude, no respect, etc. He reminds me of that fellow who was a reject from the schoolie boards who eventually disappeared (or was removed by the moderator). He had some crazy ideas that would have been dangerous advice. In someguys case, the disrespectful arrogance is the problem. Cliff has been very tolerant of him, it might qualify him for Sainthood. :o
Quote from: luvrbus on September 12, 2020, 08:38:14 AM
Answer him and keeps him busy on Google ,like the injector on the DDEC ends up being a MUI,took him a whole page to get that point
Did you fail reading comprehension ?
Quote from: someguy on September 12, 2020, 12:41:59 PM
Did you fail reading comprehension ?
Well folks, click that little "report to moderator" down there, and tell 'em if you like this, or if you don't.
This crap left a long time ago, and it needs to stay gone. Perhaps Gary doesn't understand where this ends up?
If one wants bullshit, one may cruise facebook and the like.
If one wants supportive and respectful interaction, the remaining Boards need to be protected.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on September 12, 2020, 01:26:31 PM
Well folks, click that little "report to moderator" down there, and tell 'em if you like this, or if you don't.
This crap left a long time ago, and it needs to stay gone. Perhaps Gary doesn't understand where this ends up?
If one wants bullshit, one may cruise facebook and the like.
If one wants supportive and respectful interaction, the remaining Boards need to be protected.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Anyone remember?
QuoteQuote from: RickB on April 18, 2009, 08:21:42 AM
It's a sad state of affairs when we have nothing better to do with our time than bait people into unanswerable puzzles. And it's even worse when we are so bored we allow ourselves to be baited by them.
For a bunch of folks whose combined knowledge of buses may be unrivaled we sure like to bite at them shiny minnows.
If this hasn't become off topic and pointless.... then I truly don't think we should have an off topic area anymore.
Circusboy. We are not all fooled
Meanwhile 11 years later? here we are. ;)
CHAT BAN SOMEGUY!
Done, & locked. And the board will move on as bus folks helping each other, insults are not helpful nor part of this forum. Keeping it family friendly please.
Kind Regards, Phil