I purchased four Lithium batteries for my 1967 Eagle from Lion Energy about three months ago and I am very happy with them. My eight Trojan batteries used to last until about 6:00 - 7:00 AM, which in some places is too early to start my generator. However, my Lion Energy batteries last until shortly after lunch, so no need to wake everyone up until lunchtime now. ;D
Bus Conversion Magazine has worked out a purchasing arrangement to obtain Lion Energy Lithium Batteries at 15% off retail so you can now purchase them for only about $850.00 each, and shipping is free to all BCM subscribers in the lower 48 states for all orders placed online. Lion Energy batteries also has a Lifetime Guarantee, so they may be the last batteries you will ever have to buy for your bus.
Lithium Batteries have a lot of advantages as you know if you have been reading the very detailed five part article about them in Bus Conversion Magaizine by Jerry Work over the past few months.
They are pretty much a no-brainer now if...
1. You plan to keep your bus for a year or more
2. You need new house batteries anyway
Also, if you have any solar on your bus, Lithium batteries are the only way to go to get the most out of your solar. With lithium batteries, you may even be able to get away with less solar panels then required using lead-acid batteries because they charge much faster and hold more amperage.
You can read the first part of the article on our Blog at: https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/the-advantages-of-lithium-batteries-for-bus-conversions-part-1/
To obtain the 15% discount click on this link:
https://lionenergy.com/?afmc=BCM15OFF
Good luck, and if you have any questions, please call the number on the Lion Energy website and tell them you want the Bus Conversion Magazine discount.
That is a 100 bucks ea cheaper than the Battle Born batteries good deal,if I didn't have 6 new 8-D LifeLines AGM 6 months old I would have made the switch after watching Gary install his lol with my battery compartment it would only take 18 to fill the space
Quote from: luvrbus on July 29, 2020, 01:41:37 PM
That is a 100 bucks ea cheaper than the Battle Born batteries good deal,if I didn't have 6 new 8-D LifeLines AGM 6 months old I would have made the switch after watching Gary install his lol with my battery compartment it would only take 18 to fill the space
18 batteries? Doesn't your coach have an engine in it? ;D
I saw some 200 amp Lithium marine batteries at Copper State Batteries the guy was going to make me a deal on for 6 that would fit the battery trays for $1450.00 each x 6 I would go that way if the LifeLines gave up
Do these have built-in heaters for winter use or do they require external heaters?
Living in Wisconsin and camping in cold weather, we'd be all over the lithium setup if there was an easy way to keep the charging through all seasons.
Quote from: richard5933 on July 29, 2020, 02:56:30 PM
Do these have built-in heaters for winter use or do they require external heaters?
Living in Wisconsin and camping in cold weather, we'd be all over the lithium setup if there was an easy way to keep the charging through all seasons.
Anybody living in Wisconsin in the winter is crazy. ;D
Just kidding, I grew up plowing snow in New Hampsire. It would get down too no degrees up there many days in the winter.
The good thing about Lithium Batteries that is not possible with lead-acid batteries is that you can put them in your closet as they do not gas. They also can be laid on their side or even put upside down if you want. So you do not need to store them in a cold bay in your bus. My plan if I ever decide to go north in the winter, which I don't do much anymore, is to put a drop light in my house battery bay like I do my water bay and this should keep them warm enuf to keep them happy.
I bought 3 100amp/hr Battle Born Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for $2,700. 31lbs apiece, made here on the West Coast and am very pleased with them. 10 year warranty. Good Luck, TomC
I won't use lithium batteries in my bus because of the no charging under 32 degrees thing. I have a general principle that I won't buy anything that has to be kept warm to keep working if I can help it. I don't want to ruin several thousand dollars worth of batteries because the $20 heater to keep them warm failed.
The other thing is even just a 60 watt heater costs $5 to $6 a month to run. My electric bill now averages around $70 a month so $5 is a decent jump.
Quote from: TomC on July 29, 2020, 05:41:47 PM
I bought 3 100amp/hr Battle Born Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for $2,700. 31lbs apiece, made here on the West Coast and am very pleased with them. 10 year warranty. Good Luck, TomC
Battle Born batteries are okay, but they cost a bit more, are 100Ah batteries where the Lion Energy batteries are 105Ah and only have a 10 year warranty when the Lion Energy batteries have a lifetime warranty. I decided to go with the Lion Energy batteries.
Quote from: TomC on July 29, 2020, 05:41:47 PM
I bought 3 100amp/hr Battle Born Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for $2,700. 31lbs apiece, made here on the West Coast and am very pleased with them. 10 year warranty. Good Luck, TomC
Battle Born are assembled in Reno from Chinese parts even the case I was there a few weeks ago, the Lion are made in China with a better warranty and cost less with service in Utah the owner is a nice guy too.I personally don't care for the fire hazard with Lithium batteries
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on July 29, 2020, 04:48:06 PM
Anybody living in Wisconsin in the winter is crazy. ;D
Just kidding, I grew up plowing snow in New Hampsire. It would get down too no degrees up there many days in the winter.
The good thing about Lithium Batteries that is not possible with lead-acid batteries is that you can put them in your closet as they do not gas. They also can be laid on their side or even put upside down if you want. So you do not need to store them in a cold bay in your bus. My plan if I ever decide to go north in the winter, which I don't do much anymore, is to put a drop light in my house battery bay like I do my water bay and this should keep them warm enuf to keep them happy.
I actually enjoy the seasons. We like to camp as early in the season as possible, and same for stretching out things till we have to worry about salt on the roads.
But even during the "normal" season, there is still a chance of below-freezing weather. When I was using the bus to live in during my training for my current driving job, it was parked at the truck yard in Marinette (north of Green Bay). This was during May, and we had more than a few nights/mornings with temps too cold for the lithium batteries to charge.
Some of the newer model batteries are coming with built-in heaters that divert power from the incoming charge to warm the batteries. Once the batteries reach proper temp, the system lets the charge flow. Does use more power, but at least it's possible to keep running in the cold.
We don't have enough storage in the upstairs living area to set aside any for batteries. We currently have four L-16 six-volt batteries in a slightly oversized battery box in our electrical bay, giving us about 780 Ah. That box would probably hold enough lithium batteries to give us even more capacity, even more so since you can use more of the capacity in them.
I guess it's possible to insulate the battery box to help keep things warm, but it would require some fail safes to prevent charging with too-cold temps.
do to the fact I live in permafrost country has any one info on this type of battery ? nickel- iron battery
https://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
thanks dave
Quote from: sledhead on July 30, 2020, 04:48:54 AM
do to the fact I live in permafrost country has any one info on this type of battery ? nickel- iron battery
https://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
thanks dave
Just a quick look at that link. They are a flooded battery that needs the electrolyte checked. They also off gass hydrogen, so need to be in a sealed, vented compartment.
As usual, I went a totally different direction with LiFePo4 batteries. I have 6, 138ah 12V batteries. I overcame the below freezing problem by placing them on temp controlled heat pads.
Last weekend, I ran the bedroom ac all night. Starting at 100% charge when I went to bed at 11PM I still had 75% left at 7AM. In the AM we ran the microwave, Kurig coffee maker, hair curler and one ac. When that was all done still had 68%. Pretty much no sun on the solar panels.
What was the overnight temperature? Big effect on length of run time.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 30, 2020, 06:27:00 AM
What was the overnight temperature? Big effect on length of run time.
I have that feeling this is going to get deep,the Liberty Prevost conversion have been using these batteries for several years now on their total electric conversion I have friend with one,His will not run 4 hours running 2 AC units with 8 batteries,the great part about the batteries they hold voltage till the end where flooded batteries fall off
What happens to them at temps below 32*? Do they just quit and not come back. My Lifeline 8D's are 7 years old and still a cranking but fixing to replace. Have a new 2800 watt Magnum Inverter and wonder if it would work with these. Need to call Magnum and check.
My understanding is that attempting to charge lithium batteries below the proper temp will cause permanent damage to them.
I am leaning towards ordering 32 280a LifePo4 cells.
Will make 4 24v batteries and cable them together in parallel.
probably have around $3,300.00 in the whole thing when I am done....that is a bit on the high side of what it should be but you never know what you will run into.
Quote from: TomC on July 29, 2020, 05:41:47 PM
I bought 3 100amp/hr Battle Born Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for $2,700. 31lbs apiece, made here on the West Coast and am very pleased with them. 10 year warranty. Good Luck, TomC
[/quote
I spoke with the guy at Copper State and he says the Battle Born only has a 3 year warranty and I don't recall the guy in Reno telling me they had a 10 years warranty
The way a lithium battery is charged, discharged, and ambient temperature have great impact on how long they will last. Charge rate matters, lower is better. Discharge rate matters, lower amps is better. Not topping off or drawing down hard is better. You charge hard and fast, battery lasts fewer cycles. Same with discharging rates. Depending on how you use and care for the pack, it can last 6 months or 10 years.
Quote from: windtrader on July 30, 2020, 05:35:34 PM
The way a lithium battery is charged, discharged, and ambient temperature have great impact on how long they will last. Charge rate matters, lower is better. Discharge rate matters, lower amps is better. Not topping off or drawing down hard is better. You charge hard and fast, battery lasts fewer cycles. Same with discharging rates. Depending on how you use and care for the pack, it can last 6 months or 10 years.
The guy who takes care of cell towers I do work on the generators tells me the DOD ( depth of discharge ) affects the life of the ION batteries over 70 % DOD really shorten the life.Their batteries live in a controlled environment both heated and cooled but are replaced every 2 years anyways even with the BCM I think he called it
Probably not a BCM...Probably a BMS, which stands for battery management system.
It tracks the individual cells individual, keeps them balance, and shuts down the charging or the discharge if the battery reaches too high or too low a level.
New Liths don't have the fire hazard anymore unless you throw them in water. The Battle Borns have their own BMS inside the case which keeps them all the same and monitors their amp, volts etc of each battery within that case. They have a lifetime free replacement warrentee.
Build your own Lith battery. Lots of people are doing it now. You buy 3.6 volt or whatever you need to make up your bank of batteries on line and connect them all in Series Parallel for lots of power. :) and a lot cheaper.
Most solar parts that are any good come from China now and have for awhile.
Fire hazard depends on the lithium chemistry. LFP (LiFePo4) are more, actually very stable while lipo (lithium polymer) or Lithium-Ion do have greater risk of catching fire. There have been many houses burnt down when ebike batteries go wrong.
Quote from: windtrader on July 30, 2020, 11:03:14 PM
Fire hazard depends on the lithium chemistry. LFP (LiFePo4) are more, actually very stable while lipo (lithium polymer) or Lithium-Ion do have greater risk of catching fire. There have been many houses burnt down when ebike batteries go wrong.
I saw some Battle Born they were trying to determine why they caught fire best they could find was the monitoring system was faulty( BMS) those are adjustable and people can change the setting Gary Hatts Lion batteries have those too.
has any one heard how the bank is doing the 2 nomads built years ago ? they were blazing new trails for the DYI crowd
Quote from: luvrbus on July 31, 2020, 05:55:32 AM
I saw some Battle Born they were trying to determine why they caught fire best they could find was the monitoring system was faulty( BMS) those are adjustable and people can change the setting Gary Hatts Lion batteries have those too.
has any one heard how the bank is doing the 2 nomads built years ago ? they were blazing new trails for the DYI crowd
If you're referring to Chris and Cherry (technomadia) they recently had to replace their bank due to a prolonged power failure in their storage facility. The bank discharged to below the cutoff point of the BMS, which requires a manual reset on their system. Nobody was around to perform the reset so the bank was left fully discharged for months. They were able to recover the bank once reset, but they felt it would be wise to replace it anyway. I think they went with battleborn but I could be wrong.
Fyi, their bus had been in storage for quite some time because they bought a boat.
Quote from: thomasinnv on July 31, 2020, 07:21:01 AM
If you're referring to Chris and Cherry (technomadia) they recently had to replace their bank due to a prolonged power failure in their storage facility. The bank discharged to below the cutoff point of the BMS, which requires a manual reset on their system. Nobody was around to perform the reset so the bank was left fully discharged for months. They were able to recover the bank once reset, but they felt it would be wise to replace it anyway. I think they went with battleborn but I could be wrong.
Fyi, their bus had been in storage for quite some time because they bought a boat.
I don't follow anyone on U tube I just remember they built their battery bank the first time
Quote from: richard5933 on July 29, 2020, 06:31:25 PM
I actually enjoy the seasons. We like to camp as early in the season as possible, and same for stretching out things till we have to worry about salt on the roads.
I guess it's possible to insulate the battery box to help keep things warm, but it would require some fail safes to prevent charging with too-cold temps.
Actually the battery BMS should protect the battery from the freezing charging scenario and lithium battery's at freezing can still be discharged with more power available then lead acid batteries. There is also a lot less mass in a more compact space that needs to be warmed. If you can keep water from freezing, doing the same for the batteries is not much more difficult.
Also if you go with a Victron solar charge controller you can add a temperature sensor and it will also help protect the batteries.
Quote from: richard5933 on July 30, 2020, 09:28:10 AM
My understanding is that attempting to charge lithium batteries below the proper temp will cause permanent damage to them.
Not sure about other lithium batteries, but the BMS (Battery Management System) in the Lion Energy batteries have a circuit that shuts them down when the temperature gets too low to protect them and they come back on again after the temperature rises so not to worry.
This guy has been around for awhile and does many tests on all kinds of solar and battery things and is very knowledgeable. He is telling all about both batteries. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRe9TWEEoI0
Quote from: windtrader on July 30, 2020, 11:03:14 PM
Fire hazard depends on the lithium chemistry. LFP (LiFePo4) are more, actually very stable while lipo (lithium polymer) or Lithium-Ion do have greater risk of catching fire. There have been many houses burnt down when ebike batteries go wrong.
Ebike and electric Skateboard batteries are not the same as the Lion Energy Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. They are a higher risk type of lithium that is much more likely to catch fire.
That being said, if you watch this 12 minute video, you will realize that it very difficult to start a Lion Energy battery on fire.
https://youtu.be/psV4EJ4Wsak
If in doubt, use the BCM 15% discount and order one of these batteries by using the link at the beginning of this thread and order one of these batteries yourself and get out your 12 Gage and pop off a few shots. Plz share your video on here so the rest of us will not have to duplicate this experiment and use up our shells. ;D
Now you know the rest of the story, you can feel free to take your bus on your next hunting trip. :D
What type does the Telsa use lol I have friend here in Scottsdale that is having his battery pack replaced you can buy a nice bus conversion for what that is costing him
The electric car batteries are made out of Prismatic cells.
Quote from: luvrbus on July 31, 2020, 11:03:41 AM
What type does the Telsa use lol I have friend here in Scottsdale that is having his battery pack replaced you can buy a nice bus conversion for what that is costing him
Elon has his own battery factory in Sparks, NV. I am suprised you are not an investor. The guy I bought my Eagle from is. Elon makes his own batteries but not sure what type they are.
A friend of mine owns a Tesla and loves it. He gave me a ride in it and it took off with such force I spilled my beer. :D Great car. The interesting thing is the he retired in March and his plan was to drive across the U.S. He told me the display in the car which is connected to satellites show him where all of the Tesla charging stations are and how many miles to get to them adn the charge he will have left when he arrives. The charging stations are free to Tesla owners (some are run by generators in remote locations).
He said he will have no problem traveling across the U.S. and finding charging stations. If he does have a problem finding a charging station, like if he starts traveling off the beaten path, he has the adaptors to quick charge his car at any RV park, or even any 120V outlet at a gas station, but that would take longer of course.
I am waiting for the Tesla bus to come out so too can travel across the country and get free power at his stations and ride in a bus and only hear the wind noise. I will let you know when I get ready so you can give me a small cash infusion Cliff. ;D
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on July 31, 2020, 11:21:03 AM
Elon has his own battery factory in Sparks, NV. I am suprised you are not an investor. The guy I bought my Eagle from is. Elon makes his own batteries but not sure what type they are.
A friend of mine owns a Tesla and loves it. He gave me a ride in it and it took off with such force I spilled my beer. :D Great car. The interesting thing is the he retired in March and his plan was to drive across the U.S. He told me the display in the car which is connected to satellites show him where all of the Tesla charging stations are and how many miles to get to them adn the charge he will have left when he arrives. The charging stations are free to Tesla owners (some are run by generators in remote locations).
He said he will have no problem traveling across the U.S. and finding charging stations. If he does have a problem finding a charging station, like if he starts traveling off the beaten path, he has the adaptors to quick charge his car at any RV park, or even any 120V outlet at a gas station, but that would take longer of course.
I am waiting for the Tesla bus to come out so too can travel across the country and get free power at his stations and ride in a bus and only hear the wind noise. I will let you know when I get ready so you can give me a small cash infusion Cliff. ;D
They are nice cars but close to 30k for a battery is out of my league ,his new pack is suppose to last a millions miles ,I don't know the price of the Telsa the dealer is large with about 150 new cars on the lot so you should be able to find what you looking for Gary
I have heard that lithium is a good option if you are bipolar.
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on July 31, 2020, 10:34:29 AM
Ebike and electric Skateboard batteries are not the same as the Lion Energy Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. They are a higher risk type of lithium that is much more likely to catch fire.
That being said, if you watch this 12 minute video, you will realize that it very difficult to start a Lion Energy battery on fire.
https://youtu.be/psV4EJ4Wsak (https://youtu.be/psV4EJ4Wsak)
If in doubt, use the BCM 15% discount and order one of these batteries by using the link at the beginning of this thread and order one of these batteries yourself and get out your 12 Gage and pop off a few shots. Plz share your video on here so the rest of us will not have to duplicate this experiment and use up our shells. ;D
Now you know the rest of the story, you can feel free to take your bus on your next hunting trip. :D
I just use ebike as an example. Of course you can use any kind of battery in any vehicle, bike, skateboard, car, or bus, etc.
I just installed 12kW of lithium Ion, yes OMG, my bus is going to burn and blow up. All the fear mongering is such BS. Any battery bank that is built properly and monitored so it will stay in range or shutdown is perfectly safe.
Tesla, BMW, and other auto manufactures use Lithium Ion batteries. The difference is these are very highly engineered battery systems to provide superior power and safety. Look at some of the teardown of these packs and you will be amazed at how much advanced technology is utilized. Here is a link, sorry Clifford, youtube video showing what is inside a BMW pack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqyZ1dBaGQw
Quote from: Dave5Cs on July 31, 2020, 10:22:53 AM
This guy has been around for awhile and does many tests on all kinds of solar and battery things and is very knowledgeable. He is telling all about both batteries. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRe9TWEEoI0
I asked the head of Engineering at Lion Energy about some of the concerns that Will Prowse brought up and here is his respons so you will know more about the Lion Energy batteries and why they are not UL rated.
The UL listing does give consumers additional confidence in the safety of a product. However, I find that it hinders a company's ability to make continuous improvements in their products. For example, if we create an improved version of the BMS software, then we lose the UL listing if we upgrade the software. If a manufacturer of one of the components on the BMS goes out of business in China, then we lose the UL listing as soon as we buy that single tiny component from another supplier. In addition, it is very expensive to get a UL listing (usually over $100,000 to get tested and listed with UL). Most companies are forced to pass that cost along to their customers.
Also, I have read the testing spec for UL 2054 (this is the UL listing that the Battle Born battery has), and I'm very confident that our battery would pass if we submitted it for testing. It lists tests such as: drop test, overcharging test and various temperature extreme tests. All of which our BMS and cells are designed to handle.
When it comes to the terminal posts, I'm not really sure what Will's complaint is. They are designed the way they are to provide as much flexibility when connecting as possible. I hate that if I want to hook anything to a Battle Born battery I have to go down to Fastenal first to get some sort of connectors or adapters. If he's worried about them heating up too much, then I can assure you that we do repeated charge and discharge tests in our facility at max current and do not have problems with them overheating.
Our very first battery models (the old UT 1200s) had some issues with heat under extreme conditions that we were able to quickly identify and correct (something we would not have been able to do if we were worried about the UL listing).
Hopefully this helps.
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on July 31, 2020, 06:27:39 PM
I asked the head of Engineering at Lion Energy about some of the concerns that Will Prowse brought up and here is his respons so you will know more about the Lion Energy batteries and why they are not UL rated.
The UL listing does give consumers additional confidence in the safety of a product. However, I find that it hinders a company's ability to make continuous improvements in their products. For example, if we create an improved version of the BMS software, then we lose the UL listing if we upgrade the software. If a manufacturer of one of the components on the BMS goes out of business in China, then we lose the UL listing as soon as we buy that single tiny component from another supplier. In addition, it is very expensive to get a UL listing (usually over $100,000 to get tested and listed with UL). Most companies are forced to pass that cost along to their customers.
Also, I have read the testing spec for UL 2054 (this is the UL listing that the Battle Born battery has), and I'm very confident that our battery would pass if we submitted it for testing. It lists tests such as: drop test, overcharging test and various temperature extreme tests. All of which our BMS and cells are designed to handle.
When it comes to the terminal posts, I'm not really sure what Will's complaint is. They are designed the way they are to provide as much flexibility when connecting as possible. I hate that if I want to hook anything to a Battle Born battery I have to go down to Fastenal first to get some sort of connectors or adapters. If he's worried about them heating up too much, then I can assure you that we do repeated charge and discharge tests in our facility at max current and do not have problems with them overheating.
Our very first battery models (the old UT 1200s) had some issues with heat under extreme conditions that we were able to quickly identify and correct (something we would not have been able to do if we were worried about the UL listing).
Hopefully this helps.
UL testing is mostly for insurance reasons for product liability to cover their @$#,not really for the consumer.Walmart came up they wanted all fire hydrant's all UL when the price went to $3000.00 each they decided the $550.00 hydrants were ok , very same fire hydrant only with UL cast on the barrel same seats and every nut and bolt
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on July 31, 2020, 06:27:39 PM
I asked the head of Engineering at Lion Energy about some of the concerns that Will Prowse brought up and here is his respons so you will know more about the Lion Energy batteries and why they are not UL rated.
The UL listing does give consumers additional confidence in the safety of a product. However, I find that it hinders a company's ability to make continuous improvements in their products. For example, if we create an improved version of the BMS software, then we lose the UL listing if we upgrade the software. If a manufacturer of one of the components on the BMS goes out of business in China, then we lose the UL listing as soon as we buy that single tiny component from another supplier. In addition, it is very expensive to get a UL listing (usually over $100,000 to get tested and listed with UL). Most companies are forced to pass that cost along to their customers.
Also, I have read the testing spec for UL 2054 (this is the UL listing that the Battle Born battery has), and I'm very confident that our battery would pass if we submitted it for testing. It lists tests such as: drop test, overcharging test and various temperature extreme tests. All of which our BMS and cells are designed to handle.
When it comes to the terminal posts, I'm not really sure what Will's complaint is. They are designed the way they are to provide as much flexibility when connecting as possible. I hate that if I want to hook anything to a Battle Born battery I have to go down to Fastenal first to get some sort of connectors or adapters. If he's worried about them heating up too much, then I can assure you that we do repeated charge and discharge tests in our facility at max current and do not have problems with them overheating.
Our very first battery models (the old UT 1200s) had some issues with heat under extreme conditions that we were able to quickly identify and correct (something we would not have been able to do if we were worried about the UL listing).
Hopefully this helps.
In Will's Video he did say about the posts on both and the BB were real Strong because they were in Polymer and the other one was not. As far as needing special fastnel hardware and special adapters for BB is incorrect because all you need is a bolt and nut. There is a hole in the lugs for easy hookup?
He also mentioned that the cases of the BB was a lot thicker and were polymer and the other battery was plastic and thinner.
the only difference other than size was the weight of the BB was around 32LBs and the other around 25lbs. and the amps were lower in the Battle Born.
Interesting. I would like to see him do a test of all the store bought brands.
Also I am seeing a lot of DIY batteries being built now for Buses by owners that are coming out nicely at a much lower cost.
Looks like either of these batteries are pretty good if you have the money to put out.
"I hate that if I want to hook anything to a Battle Born battery I have to go down to Fastenal first to get some sort of connectors or adapters"
From what I saw in Will's video the connector or adapter would be a 5/16 bolt and nut.
Wasn't long ago the rage was Trojan golf cart batteries,then the gell then the Lifelline AGM batteries basically they all serve your need.I doubt any of the lifepo4 batteries are better than the others they all made with Chinese parts probably from the same manufacture in China.The cell towers uses a manufacture in CA I never heard of ,Marketing hype is a way of life Don's $1500.00 made bank serves him that's all that is important.For me my system works since I don't depend on solar and never will on my roof I can run my Onan 12500 for $1.50 a hour,my Aqua Hot for bathing and heating for around $3.00 0r $4.00 a day in the winter like they say different strokes for different folks.I have a 750 amp hour battery bank it serves us well in a total electric RV I installed new 8-D Life Lines in Nov cost me under 3 grand and they have a 5 year warranty
QuoteI doubt any of the lifepo4 batteries are better than the others they all made with Chinese parts probably from the same manufacture in China.
Clifford,Like nearly all products from China or anywhere, quality varies widely. Same with lithium batteries, especially if buying in the secondary market where the incredible deals are found today. Battery performance depends on where batteries came from, previously in service, new, never installed, reason rejected, etc. Anybody going the DIY battery route better do plenty of homework and research or may find a pile of crap batteries on the doorstep.
Since I'm in the market to replace my 10 year-old AGMs, I've reviewed this thread and have been doing a fair bit of researching online. Though it's certainly a financial benefit to use the BCM 15% coupon for the Lion batteries, there is precious little review info out there on that product. The name pops up from the company itself, or dealers, Will's not-so-favorable review, and the loveyourRV guy who talks about the Lion vs lead, but not about how it and the prismatic technology compare to other brands that use the more common cylindrical cells.
When I look at the numerous "Best Lithium Ion Batteries" or "Best Deep Cycle" type lists from a variety of sources for the past year or two, NONE of them list a Lion product. The Battle Born is on essentially every list, quite often at or near the top.
With current pricing and the BCM coupon, the 100 amp Battle Born is $100/unit more than the Lion equivalent ($950 vs $850) but my leaning is to go w BB, as the reviews are consistently favorable. Any further thoughts or links to look at before I click myself into debt for $3,800 (plus tax) instead of $3,400?
Who makes the 138 amp 12 V Lithium you see around cell towers and hospitals they are green in color,I think Battle Born will be on the list for a long time unless the guy was blowing smoke they were the 1st manufacture to go after the RV market, paying that kind of money for a battery with a 1 year warranty I would stop and think
Our wallet just can't justify paying 10 times more for a battery without the 10 times more life. To me it's the greater discharge advantage but still not a deal maker IMO. We'll be staying the dinosaur route of wet lead acid a while longer.
"Who makes the 138 amp 12 V Lithium you see around cell towers and hospitals they are green in color"
Those would be Valence batteries
Quote from: dtcerrato on August 25, 2020, 06:28:01 PM
Our wallet just can't justify paying 10 times more for a battery without the 10 times more life. To me it's the greater discharge advantage but still not a deal maker IMO. We'll be staying the dinosaur route of wet lead acid a while longer.
They have their advantage but I can get 255 amps and 5 year warranty from Lifeline for 700 buck retail like you I am going to hang on since my 8D Lifelines are not a year old yet
"paying that kind of money for a battery with a 1 year warranty I would stop and think" -luvrbus
Not sure where you got the 1 year warranty. Battle Born has a 10-year warranty. Lion is "lifetime", but that's the lifetime of the battery according to the recharge counter built into their product. If the product fails before 3500 charges, they'll replace it (granted, that's a LOT of recharging). But if it fails, how accurate is the internal counter?!
Quote from: dtcerrato on August 25, 2020, 06:28:01 PM
Our wallet just can't justify paying 10 times more for a battery without the 10 times more life. To me it's the greater discharge advantage but still not a deal maker IMO. We'll be staying the dinosaur route of wet lead acid a while longer.
I'm waiting till the advantages become valuable enough for us to justify the expense. The things that are attractive for us are: more power per pound (fewer pounds needed), much faster recharge making solar more attractive, and steady voltage throughout the discharge.
The panels are warranted for 25 years so to me that's an investment. I don't mind getting 5 to 7 years from WLA. Also haven't came around to 100% dependency on solar, just a percentage & longer intervals between genny use...
Quote from: chuckdrum on August 25, 2020, 08:31:21 PM
"paying that kind of money for a battery with a 1 year warranty I would stop and think" -luvrbus
Not sure where you got the 1 year warranty. Battle Born has a 10-year warranty. Lion is "lifetime", but that's the lifetime of the battery according to the recharge counter built into their product. If the product fails before 3500 charges, they'll replace it (granted, that's a LOT of recharging). But if it fails, how accurate is the internal counter?!
The guy at factory I thought he told me 1 year free replacement , it will be years before anyone knows for sure how long one will last,I have access to the Valence 138 amp 12 V,they are changed out every year with low charges the high charges are discarded , I am going to try 2 in my Trek RV,right now there is a huge markup on those that will drop as more and more manufactures enter the race
Not sure everyone has noticed but we now have the full 5-part article about the Advantages of Lithium batteries by Jerry Work on our Blog. Anyone considering them should read this article as it is full of interesting information. Click here to read it now.
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/the-advantages-of-lithium-batteries-for-bus-conversions/
Also, Lion Energy has offered all BCM subscribers a 15% discount on their Lithium Batteries. Use this link and you will only pay $850 for each battery which has a lifetime guarantee. I have 4 of them and I like them much better than the 8 Trojan T-105 batteries I had before as they seem to run twice as long between having to run my generator. The fuel savings alone will pay for them over time as they charge about twice as fast as lead acid batteries, let alone the additional peace and quiet from not having to run your generator which is priceless when alone in the woods.
The 15% discount will appear when you check out, not before.
https://lionenergy.com/?afmc=BCM15OFF
If you like peace and quiet, you will love the Lion Energy batteries. :^
I have been researching this issue, there are some good deals out there if you are willing to do the research and take a bit of a gamble.
I plan on building the solar system a little at a time.
Currently my house system consists of my two old 8D start batteries, I moved them over when I bought new start batteries, these batteries still have a bit of life left in them, but need replaced within the next year.
These batteries are charged by a Powermax 45 amp power supply/4 stage charger.
For what it is, it works great, I currently do not go off grid much at all, so we are either plugged in or running on the generator, with a few over nights and weekends unplugged, no issues.
I am looking to become a little more off grid.
So far I have purchased 2 of these solar panels:
https://store.santansolar.com/product/santan-solar-t-series-250w/ (https://store.santansolar.com/product/santan-solar-t-series-250w/)
I would like to eventually have 8 panels.
When I install them they will be initially charging the 8Ds
The next step will be the batteries.
A friend has these batteries:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Battery-cell-calb-grade-a-100ah_62511706264.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.493450b2dcuJkA&s=p (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Battery-cell-calb-grade-a-100ah_62511706264.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.493450b2dcuJkA&s=p)
4 cells equals one 12 volt battery, he has a total of 16 cells wired as 4 -12 volt batteries, wired series/parallel as 2 - 24 volt batteries = 200ah, has had great performance from them.
You also have to install and match the solar charger for what you have and configure the batteries with the BMS (Battery Monitoring system) and set up a display for the state of the system.
My friends Solar build for his 102A3:
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/2000-watt-1500-watt-24v-off-grid-solar-power-system-1989-mci-102aw3.8304/ (https://diysolarforum.com/threads/2000-watt-1500-watt-24v-off-grid-solar-power-system-1989-mci-102aw3.8304/)
The batteries that I have my eyes on are these:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/4PCS-Lifepo4-Rechargeable-3-2V-280Ah_62401757288.html?spm=a2756.order-detail-ta-ta-b.0.0.5f8d2fc2Tnn1ty&bypass=true (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/4PCS-Lifepo4-Rechargeable-3-2V-280Ah_62401757288.html?spm=a2756.order-detail-ta-ta-b.0.0.5f8d2fc2Tnn1ty&bypass=true)
The ultimate goal for me is to be able to run the refrigerator and the Minisplit 24 hours a day without issue, that will take a while on my limited Solar power budget.
Lots of good info on this forum:
https://diysolarforum.com/ (https://diysolarforum.com/)
Peter
As I have said before, I am planning to go "all-in" on solar and lithium on mine when I get to that point. However, there is one thing we should all keep in mind when talking about warranties on solar equipment and batteries.
The warranty is only as good as the longevity of the company behind it. I love a 25 year warranty on solar panels. But, what are the realistic chances that company will exist in 10 years, much less 25?
Both of these industries are still in their infancy, especially as it relates to the newer technologies. So, both Lithium battery and solar companies are being started and disappearing are a pretty good clip, and will for some time. And it doesn't necessarily mean they are failing. Some of them are failing, but some are succeeding and being bought up.
Some of these companies never intend to be a long term supplier. It is common in the tech world (especially in emerging technologies) for a company to sell re-branded merchandise (like a battery) as a temporary revenue engine, while their real goal is the development of a very specific component technology (like a BMS) which they hope to sell to a larger company (like a battery manufacturer). And when they sell the company, the buyer is really buying that specific technology, and disposes with the rest of the company.
Whether they disappear because they succeed or fail, in either case, the warranty rarely survives. Do I prefer a company that will warranty a product for 25 years vs 10? Sure? But I will temper that decision with some reality on whether or not that warranty will still have any meaning if I actually need it in year 15.
QuoteThe other five chemistries also called lithium all have significant issues that make them far less than ideal for use in a bus conversion.
Quote
I really caution you not to get caught up in the idea of cracking open electric vehicle batteries to harvest these cells for use in your bus.
QuoteIf you like peace and quiet, you will love the Lion Energy batteries.
Gary,
Too bad the article author is a shill for Lion and LFP. Li-ion is used by many EV makers such as Tesla, Nissan, Hhevy Volt/Bolt, BMW, etc. etc.Too bad a disservice to this virtually DIY group who have cajones to DIY a battery pack. Building one seems pretty similar to the typical hazardous activities involved in driving and maintaining a 20 ton commercial vehicle.Maybe do an article lifting the skirt on DIY house bus battery.
I am in the same boat with a lot people with a energy hogs RV with the huge double door fridges and other thing that use power.I am not going to install solar on my roof for one thing and spend time looking for a place to park,and I don't believe the world is ending tomorrow and we won't have electricity.Building a self supporting energy RV cost a lot of money but RV parks cost a lot now for overnighting like 60 bucks a night were we are parked so it is a double edge sword for me,full timers may can justify the cost but I can't
Fulltimers pay by the month, 6 months or a year which isn't as bad. We found when we stay 3 days that you can get the week rate for less and just leave early. What does a Hotel cost these days for one night 125.00 to 300.00 plus don't take the beer out of their little refrigerator it will be on the bill at the desk and cost you 25.00 etc. :)
Quote from: windtrader on August 26, 2020, 08:29:28 PM
Gary,
Too bad the article author is a shill for Lion and LFP. Li-ion is used by many EV makers such as Tesla, Nissan, Hhevy Volt/Bolt, BMW, etc. etc.
Too bad a disservice to this virtually DIY group who have cajones to DIY a battery pack. Building one seems pretty similar to the typical hazardous activities involved in driving and maintaining a 20 ton commercial vehicle.
Maybe do an article lifting the skirt on DIY house bus battery.
You know as bus nuts; we all are basically frugal (see my posts) and will balance gained knowledge against risk, so yes I am doing/have done a recycled DIY house battery in my bus.
So my input will always be to add a bit of tribal knowledge that I hope others benefit from.
Should my Tesla based Lithium house batteries be housed in a stainless steel shell like Boeing is doing with the 787 for their cobalt based batteries?
Not really going there....
Quote from: Dave5Cs on August 26, 2020, 09:49:27 PM
Fulltimers pay by the month, 6 months or a year which isn't as bad. We found when we stay 3 days that you can get the week rate for less and just leave early. What does a Hotel cost these days for one night 125.00 to 300.00 plus don't take the beer out of their little refrigerator it will be on the bill at the desk and cost you 25.00 etc. :)
The $60 fee jumps to $85 for the labor day week end for me $85 they should come in and make the bed at least ;D ;D
Those prices are as high or higher than camping in Alaska! Damned...
We're either boon docking or sitting with full hook ups @ Camp Malemute in Tok! When we're up there.
:^
Most campgrounds here have raised prices. Every one is buying travel trailers or motorhomes and going camping. Probably the same out west. They are perfect for remote work from office or somewhere to get away from potentially getting the virus.
Quote from: windtrader on August 26, 2020, 08:29:28 PM
Gary,
Too bad the article author is a shill for Lion and LFP. Li-ion is used by many EV makers such as Tesla, Nissan, Hhevy Volt/Bolt, BMW, etc. etc.
Too bad a disservice to this virtually DIY group who have cajones to DIY a battery pack. Building one seems pretty similar to the typical hazardous activities involved in driving and maintaining a 20 ton commercial vehicle.
Maybe do an article lifting the skirt on DIY house bus battery.
Windtrader, please send us an article about a DIY Lithium battery setup and we will run it. Several people have offered to do it but later backed out because they have run into problems. I am sure there are people out there that have done it successfully, but nobody has send us an article yet. Most of them are off-grid people with the batteries in a place that if something happened, it woudl not take out a house or bus. So please send me one and we will run it.
BTW, the article I posted works with any good any Lithium battery, it is actually pretty biased and will work with any Lithium battery and the author received nothing for the article, he just wanted to get the information out to other bus nuts, like all of our contributors. Our authors get a free subscription to BCM and nothing else.
But unless you are an EE, I would be very careful building a Lithium battery bank for a bus on your own because things could go horribly wrong and you could lose your bus, or worse.
Please send your article to Gary@BusConversionMagazine.com. BCM is all about DYI as much as you can, and it sounds like you have a lot of great ideas so please send them my way.
"Too bad a disservice to this virtually DIY group who have cajones to DIY a battery pack. Building one seems pretty similar to the typical hazardous activities involved in driving and maintaining a 20 ton commercial vehicle."
I don't think its a disservice at all. There are different levels of diy in solar all the way from having one small solar panel to keep the battery topped up to building your own battery. Until I started following DIYSOLAR I didn't realize how easy it was(or if you could even do it) to build your own battery.
While I feel I could comfortably do it I'm not sure I would.It depends on how much the Lion/Battleborns come down in price.
Is kinda like can I "run the rack" on my engine.Probably.Will I do it? Not likely.
But I will say this.Camping without generators runnig all day is REALLY nice.
Oh one last thing.
IF you build your own you will probably have to deal directly with the Chinese.And I'm not so sure I want to do that anymore.
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on August 27, 2020, 10:26:38 AM
Windtrader, please send us an article about a DIY Lithium battery setup and we will run it. Several people have offered to do it but later backed out because they have run into problems. I am sure there are people out there that have done it successfully, but nobody has send us an article yet. Most of them are off-grid people with the batteries in a place that if something happened, it woudl not take out a house or bus. So please send me one and we will run it.
BTW, the article I posted works with any good any Lithium battery, it is actually pretty biased and will work with any Lithium battery and the author received nothing for the article, he just wanted to get the information out to other bus nuts, like all of our contributors. Our authors get a free subscription to BCM and nothing else.
But unless you are an EE, I would be very careful building a Lithium battery bank for a bus on your own because things could go horribly wrong and you could lose your bus, or worse.
Please send your article to Gary@BusConversionMagazine.com. BCM is all about DYI as much as you can, and it sounds like you have a lot of great ideas so please send them my way.
Hi Gary,
I'm pleased you offered for a DIY battery builder to share their experience. In the email to you, we can work out the details of an article, maybe a multi part series covering the broader topic of getting off the grid. Following the 12kW lithium battery build project, I just completed DIY 2kW solar panel project, all maximum integration with existing house systems, thereby minimizing cost for the upgrade. Doing this smartly makes this sort of off grid capability far more attainable than shelling out retail. don
Quote from: Fred Mc on August 27, 2020, 10:30:19 AMIt depends on how much the Lion/Battleborns come down in price.
IF you build your own you will probably have to deal directly with the Chinese.
The retail product's prices will always carry a premium over direct material cost. Maybe it will close enough to where one's time, energy, and interest justifies buying off the shelf. For the DIYer, that question faces every make/buy decision.
Presently, the price differential between raw cells and reclaimed OEM packs and new retail lithium battery packs is staggering. I assure you if cost saving is a decision criteria, simply check the DIY win on this one. 1kW raw cells are running about $100 while retail is running around $900-$1000, no brainer as it gets.
So that's all well and good but the cost of doing a lithium battery pack is staggering any way you do it. Compared to good old lead/acid I think the "no brainer" part refers more to switching off the financial analysis part of the brain and just blindly following the Gee Whiz part. Even after all the descriptions and explanations I just don't see the advantage. Maybe if weight were a big concern... but it isn't.
Jim
@jim Upgrading to lithium makes the most sense where the ability for extended off-grid boondocking is required/highly desirable. If you drive pole to pole there is little sense in doing it, financial or practical - old FLA tech works fine.
I think it also makes sense if one is trying to live on solar, especially in the north or at time other than summer when the potential hours for charging are shorter - lithium can be charged in much less time.
two small Honda gas generators, parralleled when necessary, look better all the time. Plus, some are really quiet. Or for Clifford, Predators from Harbor Freight.😉
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 28, 2020, 11:01:44 AM
two small Honda gas generators, parralleled when necessary, look better all the time. Plus, some are really quiet. Or for Clifford, Predators from Harbor Freight.😉
It's really hard to fully charge FLA batteries on a generator - running the full charge pattern on mine takes quite a long time. I can push some charge into them in a few hours, but they never get fully charged that way.
And, did I mention I HATE the noise from a generator, even the extra-special-super-duper-quiet ones? Nothing like waking up next to a quiet still lake, listening to the still air, and then suddenly a generator starts up and brings the noise of the city out to the country.
Why aren't people buying used Tesla Model S battery packs ? They sell for about $1200. 24V nominal. 5.2 KWHr *useable*.
I plan to pick up 2 of them this fall.
They have a pretty safe chemistry. No need to monitor temps during discharge for typical bus loads. You have to carefully monitor voltages though. Discharge too deep and you'll kill them. Ditto on overcharging them. Can't charge them below freezing, but all lithium chemistries are like that.
I'm going to test them as the chassis battery as well.
Found these today.
https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/200ah-lithium-low-temperature.html
Not cheap, but they have higher capacity than most and use a built-in heater to enable charge down to -4F.
Four of these would provide 800 Ah of lithium and take you quite a ways, but it would also set you back $8,000.
I'm hoping that by the time I'm ready to move on this in a year or so the price will have come down considerably and the available options will be much larger.
Well OK, but if you have a propane fridge, propane stove, propane heat and propane water heater that only leaves lighting and entertainment. Surely a single solar panel and lead batteries could handle that?
Jim
We have propane heat which keeps thing toasty, but it still needs 12vdc for the fan. Fridge is 12vdc compressor unit which sips power, but it still needs power. Lights and entertainment are what they are. Fans for warmer weather and water pump, of course.
A single one of our 180-watt panels will only provide 15 amps, and that's if it's at 100%. Start considering passing clouds, shorter days, and lower sun and the number drops considerably.
There simply isn't enough time in a non-summer day to fully recharge FLA batteries off solar unless you have lots of it. Our three 180-watt panels will usually keep up fine during peak sun season, but not at other times. Especially not if you throw in a really cloudy or raining day.
I'm not running out to buy lithium today, but I can see where the advantages of lithium will be much more attractive as the prices continue to drop.
What Jim said that's why we're going with 500 watts @ 29 amps on the roof. That and the inverter otr will free up our percentage of genny use drastically.
Quote from: someguy on August 28, 2020, 11:50:33 AM
Why aren't people buying used Tesla Model S battery packs ? They sell for about $1200. 24V nominal. 5.2 KWHr *useable*.
I plan to pick up 2 of them this fall.
They have a pretty safe chemistry. No need to monitor temps during discharge for typical bus loads. You have to carefully monitor voltages though. Discharge too deep and you'll kill them. Ditto on overcharging them. Can't charge them below freezing, but all lithium chemistries are like that.
I'm going to test them as the chassis battery as well.
I don't recommend Tesla modules as chassis batteries; as they are nominally 24volts; but run a lower voltage range of 18-24 at 80% capacity. Most lead acid batteries are run in a 21 to 27 volt range.
I did a fair amount of posts in my bus thread on my use of two Tesla battery modules with a SimBMS. Going to make a second pass at documenting it when I finish my house electrical system redesign.
Not to say that using them as start batteries couldn't be done, but there are real challenges from a alternator charging perspective for lithium batteries, so definitely not plug and play.
In my case I have two major components which are the DC refrigerator and the diesel boiler for the hydronic system that don't like the Tesla battery voltage range. So the solution was to add a dc to dc charger in the mix to constantly low level float charge the 24V and 12V lead acid batteries in the bus that these devices draw off of.
In an emergency I do have a point in my system where it is easy to jumper the Tesla battery into the start battery system for an emergency start if it should be needed.
The complexity worries me. It's been obvious for a long time that electrical systems run on smoke and sometime it's a real challenge to keep it from getting out. But Electronics work on Witchcraft. Just ask any Programming Engineer. And computers? Don't get me started. Computers have mental illnesses and sometimes complete insanity. All you have to do is consider how they were developed compared to organic intelligence. First there was a cell that learned to contract. Then there was a cell that could make an electrical charge. They got together and made babies that willy-nilly got ever more complex until we had people and considering that big brain had no plan as it was developed, there's just layer upon layer of redundancy and bizarre dead ends so it's no surprise there is a certain amount of insanity in the mix. Computers? Well, take Windows for example. Same general pattern. Result? Insanity. Or Java, now there's one that pretty much started out with mental illnesses.
So I have to ask myself, "Self, with the level of aberrance already aboard the bus, do you REALLY want to add more?"
Jim
QuoteSo I have to ask myself, "Self, with the level of aberrance already aboard the bus, do you REALLY want to add more?"
Having worked with computers almost from the beginning of time, did NOT work on tube computers, but did start in the business pushing cartloads of punchcards to load into sorters and decollators with hand wired logic control boards, I still feed off anything technology.
You have to be crazy and have much passion to do this stuff and definitely not for everyone. Just being a busnut tribe member required a fair bit of insanity and passion. Not simply flavoring bus with technology but mixing and integrating old and new is the epitome of insanity, only found in the last undiscovered tribe on the planet. lol
Start stocking up on tomatoes so after Gary publishes the DIY lithium battery article(s), you' have boxes of rotten tomatoes for ammunition. lol
Quote from: freds on August 29, 2020, 09:16:35 AM
I don't recommend Tesla modules as chassis batteries; as they are nominally 24volts; but run a lower voltage range of 18-24 at 80% capacity. Most lead acid batteries are run in a 21 to 27 volt range.
It is a little bit low but I think things will still work.
Telsa battery packs are 6S74P. Cell voltage is 3.8 nominal, 3.3 shut off and 4.2V max.
6 x 3.3V = 19.8V at cut off. Seems low for a 24V system except that 24V batteries drop to 20V or less under hard starting conditions due to the Peukert effect. Tesla packs have very low internal resistance and drop very little. I'm guessing there wouldn't be a lot of difference, even with a mostly discharged Tesla pack.
6 x 3.8 nominal = 22.8V, which is still a little low, but should work. OCV at 10% SOC on a 24V system is 23V, but under load it would be 21-21V. The bus should still run fine at the voltage.
6 x 4.2 fully charged = 25.2V, which is fine for running a bus. Due to lack of Peukert effect, I suspect this will turn the starter over really well.
In reality the Tesla battery only gets used for starting the bus. Once the engine is running the alternator(s) will bump the system voltage up to 24V charging levels and power whatever is needed. The Tesla battery would only only supply the chassis with power when the chassis voltage dropped below the Tesla pack voltage.
A large diode will be needed to isolate the Tesla pack from chassis voltage when the engine is running. And a BMS will be needed to handle charging the Tesla battery.
I'll report back what I find when I have it running. We want to use Tesla packs to power some stationary engines too. Testing will commence this fall.
QuoteIn my case I have two major components which are the DC refrigerator and the diesel boiler for the hydronic system that don't like the Tesla battery voltage range. So the solution was to add a dc to dc charger in the mix to constantly low level float charge the 24V and 12V lead acid batteries in the bus that these devices draw off of.
I'm surprised those are 24V loads.
Quote from: freds on August 29, 2020, 09:16:35 AM
Not to say that using them as start batteries couldn't be done, but there are real challenges from a alternator charging perspective for lithium batteries, so definitely not plug and play.
Low pass filter in front of the BMS ?
QuoteIn an emergency I do have a point in my system where it is easy to jumper the Tesla battery into the start battery system for an emergency start if it should be needed.
Unless you properly isolate the Tesla battery, as soon as the engine starts and the alternator produces power, you'll see charge voltage across the Tesla battery if it is in simple parallel with the LA batteries.
Have you ever measured your starter voltage and current on LA versus Tesla ? I'm dying to do this.
Hey guys, I just bought 2 of these AGM Pure Lead + Carbon deep cycles for $450 each at Deep Cycle San Diego. Will be trying them out bondocking in a month or so, will let you know how they go.
What I like about the pure lead + carbon is it minimizes the worst things about FLA batt's (long charge cycle, maintenance, plus can discharge to 30% without issue).
https://youtu.be/Z0r65O22dvA
Are the "12V" lithium batteries people are buying 3S or 4S ? They must be 4S ? But if they are, how does a stock charging system get them to 100% SOC ?
3S = 12.6V max, 11.4V nominal. 4S = 16.8V max, 15.2V nominal. (I'm using 3.8 and 4.2V nominal and max.)
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 29, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
The complexity worries me. It's been obvious for a long time that electrical systems run on smoke and sometime it's a real challenge to keep it from getting out. But Electronics work on Witchcraft. Just ask any Programming Engineer. And computers? Don't get me started. Computers have mental illnesses and sometimes complete insanity. All you have to do is consider how they were developed compared to organic intelligence. First there was a cell that learned to contract. Then there was a cell that could make an electrical charge. They got together and made babies that willy-nilly got ever more complex until we had people and considering that big brain had no plan as it was developed, there's just layer upon layer of redundancy and bizarre dead ends so it's no surprise there is a certain amount of insanity in the mix. Computers? Well, take Windows for example. Same general pattern. Result? Insanity. Or Java, now there's one that pretty much started out with mental illnesses.
I want some of whatever you smoke.
Quote from: JT4SC on August 29, 2020, 02:42:07 PM
Hey guys, I just bought 2 of these AGM Pure Lead + Carbon deep cycles for $450 each at Deep Cycle San Diego. Will be trying them out bondocking in a month or so, will let you know how they go.
What I like about the pure lead + carbon is it minimizes the worst things about FLA batt's (long charge cycle, maintenance, plus can discharge to 30% without issue).
https://youtu.be/Z0r65O22dvA
What batteries did you get? When I try and search for these I'm only finding 2v and 4v models, none of which seem like they would be drop-in replacements for either 6v or 12v.
I'm currently running benchmarks and sea trials on the new solar array and lithium house battery bank upgrades. On my bus, the largest consumers of AC power are air conditioner, refrigerator, and water heater.
If your goals is full off grid boondocking in a hot location, typical daily load is 26+ kW. A typical rooftop AC running 20 hours a day consumes 20 kW, the typical Norcold RV refrigerator consumes about 5kW, and electric water heater uses a couple thousand.
That alone is 26kW per day, not counting the other trivial loads from sources. Mitigating the amount of electrical generation and storage equipment can help but is going to still require a lot more than what has been mentioned here.
I am swapping the rooftops for high efficiency mini-splits. The same 20 hours of AC now consumes 8kW, swapping RV reefer for high efficiency residential unit reduces consumption to about 1kW and heating water once a day saves a thousand or so.
At 10kW a day, one can size up equipment to squeeze by. I'm adding a couple more panels to increase daily PV output to about 2.5kW allowing for charging battery bank while running AC. The 12kW battery bank supplies the AC when the PV is done for the day. The DOD is about 50%, still ensuring very solid long term battery life.
As mentioned, trials and benchmarks are underway as I type here so do not carve these figures into stone; it will change on both the demand and supply sided. The goal is to get it sorted out in the next month or two so extended stays in desert areas this winter will be very comfortable, pain and stress free.
And yes of course you can run more equipment off propane and reduce electrical demands but if the goal is propane and generator free operations, you too will be following in my wake.
Windy we'd been following your post pretty close & even stealing it a bit on other forum to show our solar progress which in fact is just a fraction of what your accomplishing! Yes we still have on board genny(s) & lots of propane so we'll be far from total solar but am looking forward to the increased freedoms & independence the upgrades will afford us. In your case LET THERE BE SUN! :^
Quote from: windtrader on August 29, 2020, 04:44:36 PM
If your goals is full off grid boondocking in a hot location, typical daily load is 26+ kW. A typical rooftop AC running 20 hours a day consumes 20 kW, the typical Norcold RV refrigerator consumes about 5kW, and electric water heater uses a couple thousand.
You mean KWHrs, right ? Not KW. KWHrs ?
KW is power. KWHr is energy.
Quote from: windtrader on August 29, 2020, 04:44:36 PM
...swapping RV reefer for high efficiency residential unit reduces consumption to about 1kW ...
Have you considered a 12vdc fridge instead of the residential? They sip the electrons very slowly.
Even if you found a residential which only pulled 1 amp @ 120vac, that's 10 amps from your battery bank being sapped. My Vitrifrigo only consumes 5.7 amps when it runs, which is about 1/2 the time. This would cut your daily consumption even more.
QuoteHave you considered a 12vdc fridge instead of the residential? They sip the electrons very slowly.
Richard, I did explore (briefly) 12v reefers but my impression is they cost quite a bit more expensive than a commodity big box 10 ft3 unit. I stopped looking further. The phrase "diminishing returns" comes to mind. Given the box store product uses about 1kW a day and the 12v electron sipping ones use half or about 500 watts (guesstimating), saving 500 watts a day is barely noticeable in the overall consumption of a fully off-grid electrical powered RV. The value proposition just was not there for me, not even close and an easy one to check off.Adding a panel fills the electrical deficiency gap and resolving a badly broken unit is as simple as buying and swapping with another el cheapo. I'm guessing parts and service for the niche 12v apartment sized units is a painful experience while swiping the CC card. Just my assessment.btw - i PM'd you here some time back, here or over there.
Careful when choosing a residential fridge for a RV some of the smaller fridges have the cooling coils mounted on each side and cannot be built in, one of the major builders of class C and class A have a huge recall on those fridges because they don't work built in without a lot of ventilation lol I read the install manual on 1 the only place it will work is setting out with nothing around it
Clifford,
Thanks for the tips on using residential in RV. I've decided to simply put up with running reefer off propane for the time being. Propane is very efficient and very low cost so as long as stove remains propane may as well leave reefer alone until doing full propane removal by swapping cooktop to induction and reefer together. Not like I got no other bus projects on the list. ;)
My fridge is propane.Works great. Its a Norcold and is over 30 years old.Just replaced a
circuit board recently and works fine. New ones are pretty expensive so I was looking at residential fridges but you either pay for a new propane fridge or pay for enough battery to run an electric one for a couple of days. I have propane for cooking and heating anyway. As someone (NOT someguy)said "do it your way"
Maybe things have changed (certainly solar is doing that for some for better or worse, depending) but I owned a Dometic 3 way some while ago. Actually have owned a couple of them, and what you want a fridge to be is unobtrusive. Just work without causing any inconvenience at all if possible. On gas or hookups it was just that. Never noticed it at all except to use it. On 12v it was a different matter, as it had a habit of draining the batteries and then dying. Now admittedly I didn't have the massive battery bank back in those days but it was the one thing that I could count on to cause me trouble if I used it in 12v mode. So I quit doing that, and the next fridge I bought was a Norcold 2 way. End of problem. Never missed the 12v even on the road, the Norcold traveled just fine on propane.
Sure, with a proper solar setup I can see that not being an issue but if 1 panel is the cost between an RV fridge and a residential unit that means the residential takes 2 panels and so add about $2K to the cost of the residential fridge and suddenly we have parity with the cost of the RV fridge, not including the cost of batteries and power conditioners, associated wiring and labor. And since you can't count on 100% sunny days you need another panel to catch up when it is sunny. In the end the residential fridge is arguably the more expensive option of the two.
I suppose eventually they will get the efficiency up and the price down on flexible solar panels with adhesive backing that you can just roll out and stick down, at which point we can all paper the entire roof of the bus to supply all our energy needs. I look forward to that day. In the meantime I see it as a supplemental energy source which can help but isn't ready to replace the conventional ones yet.
And, I don't think electric will ever replace gas on the range top for the discriminating chef. Even if he/she is an RV chef.
Jim
I have a 2 burner induction top to get one that works good they draw a lot of amps and cost a lot,the $150 2 burner induction 110v is pretty useless btdt and spent 3 times the money for a good one
Jim, We have an induction cooktop at home. I would never to go back to gas or coil electric. The heat control is really fantastic, and there is very little waste heat added to the room. Of course, I am not a master chef.
If one really dry camps a lot there is a good justification for solar. My concern is that our desert gets kind of warm, and I would hate to need to avoid a shady parking space for the sake of some solar panels. We actually did buy about 30+ feet of flexible solar on the closeout, but sold them when considering the shade versus solar issue.
In past years the downside to 12v-110 norcolds was they were hard to properly cool in hot weather. People added tiny fans inside to help circulate the air around or put a dash fan at the bottom to better force air up through the coils. The issues with propane back then was level operation and freezing in non freezer area.
All I read and get from my son who has induction is very positive. The shade/sun solar dilemma is solved I hope by having panels with quick release fasteners so they can be easily and quickly ground deployed for optimal PV performance. Will have to ponder cable runs but probably disconnect and use spare sets when ground deployed.
The Norcold is running on 120AC and cools fine, just gulps electricity like baby from a bottle.
Today, the panel array is about 60% and no clouds but plenty of smoke and haze from the wildfires in NorCal. If that sort of reduction is typical for less than full on sunny days, more panels on order. Once I rip that other ugly roof wart off, 4 more can go up for another 1kW PV generation. Still, under similar conditions that is only 600watts but over the day that should generate about 3kW so worth the effort.
Quote from: richard5933 on August 29, 2020, 03:35:14 PM
What batteries did you get? When I try and search for these I'm only finding 2v and 4v models, none of which seem like they would be drop-in replacements for either 6v or 12v.
I have been looking at something like this ? as a replacement for my 6 golf cart batteries I have now ( 660 amps total )
this is in Canadian dollars so you US guys should find a nice savings on the price
https://www.cdnsolar.ca/shop-wholesale-solar-products/vision-agm-batteries/
dave
Induction cooking is nothing new it has been around since the 1930"s Sonja has been using it since the 90's and has a induction tea pot also,any pot a magnet will stick to works on those aluminum pans will not work for induction cooking
Quote from: someguy on August 29, 2020, 03:09:54 PM
I want some of whatever you smoke.
No, I really think you don't.
Here's a guy who has been so lucky that he has no clue just how bad it can get. Well why not, the odds say there is someone out there who will never have it all cascade into the 7th level of hell, but for most of us that risk is there every time we turn on something more complex than a relay. And if there is one and only one thing a computer is good at, it is in initiating and sustaining a cascade failure. Who else here hasn't experienced the joys of noticing one little thing that wasn't quite perfect and within an hour or two was fighting the raging out of control fire threatening to burn your entire life down?
The promise of computers has always been and still is that they could simplify our lives. Ever notice how since they came around we've been running faster and faster in ever decreasing circles? There's a drain in the middle of that mess somewhere.
Jim
The solution to most mechanical and computer problems is simply reversing entropy. We can tackle that right after perpetual motion.
https://www.realclearscience.com/lists/10_greatest_ideas_in_the_history_of_science/entropy_universe_tends_toward_disorder.html
QuoteThe promise of computers has always been and still is that they could simplify our lives. Ever notice how since they came around we've been running faster and faster in ever decreasing circles? There's a drain in the middle of that mess somewhere.
Having been active participant to this hyper evolution of man and machine, we are, for better or worse, in a unique period of the most rapid and pervasive technological advancement, ever.
While every period of change is unsettling and cause or great consternation, humans adapt. Through this and the next couple generations of humans on earth, this state of humanity will be present. At the point when man and machine establish equilibrium and co-exist on mutually beneficial terms, humans are going to feel the angst and stress natural while the transformation is underway.
Soon singularity will be reality and man-machine interface will mature. We see it everyday , just open your eyes to the advancements arriving daily, literally. Elon Musk is pushing the line of man-machine. Read Bostrom and Kerzweil, they make it so clear where this is all going. We already have the ability to manufacture and alter human beings. Look how much advancement has occurred in the past one hundred years. Anybody who listened to any typical current day would think you were absolutely insane. Given the exponential rate of change, the next hundred year checkpoint is truly incomprehensible.
Now back to lithium batteries ...