If you were to convert another bus or buy one already converted, would you buy one with a Manual Transmission? Or would you only buy one with an Automatic Transmission and why?
Either way - would totally depend on what the transmission was attached to. I bought my current one with a manual - not because of the manual but rather in spite of it. Like what I have now, if it was a bus I like it wouldn't matter.
That all said, presented with two identical buses - one with a manual and one with an auto - I'd probably choose the auto.
I prefer a manual if possible. While shopping for buses originally I wasn't particularly worried either way though I usually prefer to drive a manual in my faster vehicles. After reading about the prices associated with maintenance and repair of an automatic of this size I'd sway heavily towards a manual.
No sensors, no cooler, no problems.
I understand that having a manual decreases the total value of the vehicle but I'm not converting my bus to sell it. The only reason I can see why I would replace mine is if something happens that results in it being scrapped.
Wait till it needs a clutch.
Quote from: chessie4905 on June 27, 2020, 03:19:49 PM
Wait till it needs a clutch.
Average clutch job now is over 4 grand in a bus you don't need to pull the engine like the MCI 5's,Automatic are better for the average bus owner,they maneuver better both forward and backwards in tight areas,no linkage or reverse solenoid to deal with,no gear grinding or missing a gear ,u joints last longer and easier on the engine distributing the power band,the newer autoshift 10 speeds are not a lot of buses have those
I do have to agree about maneuvering backwards. I have no idea who thought a reverse gear of that speed was a good idea. As far as the clutch goes as long as it doesn't happen far from home I have access to equipment to do the job myself. In my experience they give plenty of warning though I've never been around the dual disc type when they quit. I'd assume as far as U joints and the power band goes that's more based on the quality of the driver though it would make sense that the torque converter will take any shock rather than sending it down the line. I am by no means a pro but after driving my 51 Dodge around the 4 speed Spicer seems pretty smooth. Before I bought mine I read up on the 8v71 and the Spicer and was pretty worried about damaging something or lugging the engine too much. My first experience driving it the PO pulled it to the end of their driveway and sent me down a windy hilly road through the woods. It was surprisingly easy to stay in the power range and shift up or down as needed.
Take all of this with the consideration that I have driven my bus a grand total of 40 miles and may change my mind entirely once I've had more experience with it. I have also never driven an automatic bus so I have no direct comparison.
The month after buying a 4106, the wife and I toured the state of Idaho for two weeks.. At the end of that trip I had a LARGE blister on my right hand from the almost constant shifting of a Spicer transmission,, and the short twisty and graded roads of Idaho.. I swore to never do it again when autos are so mainstream in today's vehicles..>>>Dan ( But I did learn a lot about the care and feeding of mousetraps!)
To be practical, it would be best nowadays to go with an automatic if you ever need someone who is not handy with a manual to drive the bus, and if you ever want to sell it and get a good price. If you are old school and grew up driving manual transmissions in trucks or buses, then you might consider a manual because you like to feel connected to the vehicle in a way that an automatic cannot do. But, if your left leg gets tired in stop and go traffic that seems to be worse in recent decades, well then, your manual days might be over unless you put in an automated one with a throttle controlled centrifugal clutch (but then it would be a stretch to call it a manual). :o
I would never under any circumstances own any vehicle with a manual.
Clutches in buses wouldn't be bad if they used the pull type like trucks do but the push type double disk clutches in a bus are a real PITA and exspensive to replace
Don't forget the looong traffic lights that make you decide to shift into neutral, then waiting forever for the gears to stop spinning before you can reengage 1st, or holding the clutch in till your leg starts to ache.
At this point in life the only way I'd buy anything with a stick trans would be if I had a buyer for it --with cash in escrow. Jack
Many tradeoffs between auto vs manual but seems autos get the vote due to convenience and drivability. One personal insight, driving a MC8 8V71 auto for a couple seasons is a manual with more gears to select going up steep grades There are times it is clear the bus would pull a couple extra miles an hour if the bus was running in a different gear. The only benefit is if there are more manual gears to select over the auto in those conditions.
Cliff mentions newer autos with many more gears and that would eliminate the benefit mentioned here. The reality is the newer autos are also mated to more powerful engines making for the best combination.
The 754 CR Allision is a good setup it takes the gap out with 5 speeds,the guys with the V730 pay a price in certain conditions because of the huge gap between 2nd and 3rd gear
I would buy an automatic next time. I have a manual now, and I like the fuel mileage, but maneuvering in campgrounds is a pain when first and reverse idle at like 5 mph. The automatic's fuel mileage might be tolerable if I had a newer 4 stroke motor ahead of it. I hear that some of them are up in the 8-9 range with an automatic behind them. My bus is only about 27 now and I am pretty sure that helps me get the 6.5 - 9 mpg I get now with the manual 4 speed.
Steve Toomey
I started seriously thinking about automatics when my left knee started hurting. I still have a 5 speed in my MGB but don't drive it as much as I used to and the clutch is lighter since I worked on it. Everything else is automatic and I have a thing for cruise control. That cartilage doesn't get replaced as fast as we get older and it's certainly possible to wear it out. Not for me. I have no intention of going in for hip and knee replacement parts.
Jim
It's sort of like asking if you prefer to do your laundry by hand or use a washing machine. I bought this MC5a with a Spicer. It is a ridiculous transmission. Reverse is way to fast. Even first is too high. I had been on hills that the bus could not go up in first gear without taking a quarter mile running start (after removing the toad, of course).
I did eventually need the clutch replaced, but when I added everything up it made more sense to put the money toward an Allison. That turned out to be a really great decision. For future information, An Allison can be removed and replaced in a MA5a without pulling the engine. There is a cross member beneath the transmission that prevents it, but if you cut out the center part of it wide enough to remove the transmission, it will come out and go back in without removing the engine. Once it is back together, you can bolt a replacement cross member in joining the two cut ends. This also allows you easy access to the transmission drain plug.
Quote from: Lin on June 29, 2020, 10:43:44 AM
It's sort of like asking if you prefer to do your laundry by hand or use a washing machine. I bought this MC5a with a Spicer. It is a ridiculous transmission. Reverse is way to fast. Even first is too high. I had been on hills that the bus could not go up in first gear without taking a quarter mile running start (after removing the toad, of course).
I did eventually need the clutch replaced, but when I added everything up it made more sense to put the money toward an Allison. That turned out to be a really great decision. For future information, An Allison can be removed and replaced in a MA5a without pulling the engine. There is a cross member beneath the transmission that prevents it, but if you cut out the center part of it wide enough to remove the transmission, it will come out and go back in without removing the engine. Once it is back together, you can bolt a replacement cross member in joining the two cut ends. This also allows you easy access to the transmission drain plug.
That is not a easy conversion Lin well worth though lol I spent months helping Don find parts for that one
Clifford, as with all of my projects it took longer, had more glitches, and cost more than I would have expected. I don't know if you remember, but from day one of use the Allison 647 had a serious fluid leak. I managed with it for two years until it got unbearable. When United Transmission took it out, they found that there was only silicon instead of the main gasket. Arizona Transmission did cover the repair cost though. Assuming that there was nothing intentional in shipping me the transmission, I am guessing that an old exchange got shipped out by mistake.
Quote from: Lin on June 29, 2020, 11:03:37 AM
Clifford, as with all of my projects it took longer, had more glitches, and cost more than I would have expected. I don't know if you remember, but from day one of use the Allison 647 had a serious fluid leak. I managed with it for two years until it got unbearable. When United Transmission took it out, they found that there was only silicon instead of the main gasket. Arizona Transmission did cover the repair cost though. Assuming that there was nothing intentional in shipping me the transmission, I am guessing that an old exchange got shipped out by mistake.
You know Kim the owner of AZ Transmission passed away,I don't think that will happen now if you have a problem
I did buy one with a manual just last fall - still getting used to it, but it's kind of a fun 'character' piece to the bus, and it's not like I'm full-timing or driving it every day. Slowly mastering the old crashbox is actually quite rewarding in its own way, and it definitely helps to keep your focus on how you're driving and what's coming up next.
Long term, my aim is to have no transmission at all - give it another 10-15 years and I expect to start seeing heavy duty electric drive axles and wheel motors start showing up at reasonable prices, and then I can go hybrid or even full electric; the 'lightweight' chassis of a 4104 with the torque and power of electric motors sounds like a fantastic ride to me. I figure plenty of people on here have managed just fine with the old 4-speeds for decades, I can hang in there a while and reap the improved mileage and lower maintenance while I'm at it (and while my knees are still pretty young).
I see these buses sell all the time it is a given they will bring 5 to 10k less with a 4 speed and some are nicer conversions and better maintained
Being a truck driver for over forty years i am familiar with almost every manual transmission out there in a wide range of equipment. When my bus was professionally converted they rebuilt the engine and pulled the spicer in favour of a v730 automatic. I suppose it was because anybody paying over $250 grand for a coach would not want a manual transmission. I must say that those whining about the big spread between the top gears need to be more familiar with the way a 8v71 likes to operate. Rev it till it won't go no higher and it'll work a little better for you. The two strokes like to be operated like you are mad at them. Verdict? I like the v730 more than the manual and my wife can drive it too!
Quote from: Knuckles on June 30, 2020, 05:48:37 AM
Being a truck driver for over forty years i am familiar with almost every manual transmission out there in a wide range of equipment. When my bus was professionally converted they rebuilt the engine and pulled the spicer in favour of a v730 automatic. I suppose it was because anybody paying over $250 grand for a coach would not want a manual transmission. I must say that those whining about the big spread between the top gears need to be more familiar with the way a 8v71 likes to operate. Rev it till it won't go no higher and it'll work a little better for you. The two strokes like to be operated like you are mad at them. Verdict? I like the v730 more than the manual and my wife can drive it too!
No one is whining it is just a fact ,people spend time and money A timing a 8v71 with a 4 speed it is a waste of time and money it does no good because of the long split,the 7 speed that came later in buses was a huge improvement over the 4 speed
When I was looking for my bus, I got real familiar with what a V730 looked like (since I could only afford a transit bus). Then after buying my bus I had the 5.53 rears taken out (58mph top speed) and had 4.56 installed (1900 @ 60mph, 2,400 @ 76mph). A V730 is a HT740 without 1st gear. After having my 8V-71 turbocharged and air to air intercooled, with 375hp and 1,125lb/ft torque, I'm quite pleased with the performance.
I'm converting my '85KW into a 40ft motorhome. I took out the 13spd at 1.2 million miles (original clutch) and installed a HT740. Even though I eliminated the 13spd overdrive, the direct 4th gear with 3.55 and 11R-24.5 (476rpm) yields 1,689 @ 60mph.
To answer the question-after 1.3 million miles of driving a 13spd, and seeing how other bus nuts struggle with only a 4 spd, I'm a firm Allison automatic believer. It's like driving a car with car like acceleration. Good Luck, TomC
This is really a North American conversation! Most of the world outside of the US and Canada drive manual transmissions. European relatives when they come here to visit are surprised by all our vehicles being automatic.
The Allison World B500, now in it's 5th generation I think, is a great transmission in a bus. Very smooth, and it knows what gear to be in all the time. You can just put it in D and go.
A good manual is the 7 speed Eaton-Fuller. It was in some of the MCI Ds with the S60. Great combination.
Of course the Road Rangers are great in trucks: 10, 13, 15, 18 speed. Some bus nuts have installed those in their buses. I would love to have a 10 speed in a bus.
You still see buses with the ZF 12 speed auto. That is a rough shifting transmission.
I have the Allison HT740 in my bus. I mostly like it. Easy to drive, but you have to shift it manually. It is not very smart. People say how bullet proof it is. Mine has been good so far. It does put a lot of heat into the cooling system though. We didn't have to watch the temperature as much with the 4 speed manuals in the old days.
JC
Hi All, driving on, getting stuck on, LA freeways during daylight, would convince most people to get an automatic transmission, not only on their buses, but cars and pickups, even had friends that got the few automatic motorcycles that exist.
Clifford thanks for the idea to take the transmission cooler out of the engine, tom...
My bus has a 5-speed manual and almost have the reverse problem that other people are mentioning - the first gear is so low that the gearbox almost becomes a 4-speed as you can quite happily set-off in 2nd most of the time. The clutch in mine is air-assisted and so quite light
I like the manual but I'm sure I'd be equally happy with a modern automatic instead, and indeed my cars invariably have autos - but on the other hand, and unlike the cars, the bus is over 30 years old now and has an entirely mechanical engine etc, and I think the extra bit of control a clutch and manual gearbox give you can occasionally be a life saver when the engine is cold for instance
Jeremy