Hey all,
I'm looking for some replacement holding tanks for my MC-5. The fresh and black tanks I have are 115 gallons, made from 1/4" polypropylene, and were likely built in the late 1970s when my bus was converted.
I'd like to replace them, but none of the "off the shelf" tanks that I've found online have similar dimensions. I've found some polypropylene sheets locally to make the tanks myself for $420. I'd also need a plastic welder ($70 at Harbor Freight), welding rod, tank fittings, and some practice. So, somewhere in the neighborhood of $600 for both tanks if I build them myself.
Before I pull the trigger to build them myself, I was wondering if anybody has any recommendations on a shop that does custom tanks?
Thanks,
Jed
I priced them out a couple of years ago, trying to accomplish something similar to what you're looking for.
I was able to find a place that could do the custom tank, and the price for one was slightly more than what you're looking at to do two yourself.
Any reason in particular that you are going to replace them? Can they be given a once over, scrubbed down, and put back in service?
We have dealt with El Monte plastics a couple times with excellent results.
They will custom fabricate anything you want including taps for all the in & out fittings. It is not cheap...
Quote from: richard5933 on May 11, 2020, 05:49:32 PM
I priced them out a couple of years ago, trying to accomplish something similar to what you're looking for.
I was able to find a place that could do the custom tank, and the price for one was slightly more than what you're looking at to do two yourself.
Any reason in particular that you are going to replace them? Can they be given a once over, scrubbed down, and put back in service?
Yeah, from what I've been able to find, it would be $1200+ and I really don't want to spend that much just on tanks. I'm redoing the whole water system, so I have plenty of other things to spend money on.
Few reason for replacing them...I think they're probably 40+ years old, at some point they're going to crack. Although maybe they'd still last longer than my welds. :) Also, The dump valve and some of the other fittings are not where I'd like them. I know I could cover them and make new holes, I'd just rather not. And finally, I'd like to make them a little taller and not quite so wide so that I can gain some storage space in the bay without losing tankage. So overall, no huge reasons to replace the tanks, but a few small things that kinda add up.
It is easy with a good plastic welder but not a Habor Freight welder they are not much better than $10.00 hair dryer from the Dollar store
I had a couple tanks made by a small shop in Martinsville Ohio. One tank was a black water tank for the bow of my boat. Drew up plans and they built exactly what I needed. Second was for the condensor of AC system i built for the same boat. Can't remember exactly but I think they were around $150 each. If south west Ohio is close for you I can see if they're still around.
Quote from: 64MCI on May 11, 2020, 06:16:58 PM
Yeah, from what I've been able to find, it would be $1200+ and I really don't want to spend that much just on tanks. I'm redoing the whole water system, so I have plenty of other things to spend money on.
Few reason for replacing them...I think they're probably 40+ years old, at some point they're going to crack. Although maybe they'd still last longer than my welds. :) Also, The dump valve and some of the other fittings are not where I'd like them. I know I could cover them and make new holes, I'd just rather not. And finally, I'd like to make them a little taller and not quite so wide so that I can gain some storage space in the bay without losing tankage. So overall, no huge reasons to replace the tanks, but a few small things that kinda add up.
Funny how similar our thinking sounds on this.
The tank on our bus which were installed by Custom Coach are still in great shape. The color has yellowed every so slightly, but overall things have held together since 1974. There was a split/leak on one seam where the vertical walls meet the top of the tank, but when I looked at it more comfortably it was clear that the weld was never done correctly from the factory. I got it welded up with my little Amazon plastic welder and it's been good since.
I thought at first that the way the bronze flanges were attached by being screwed to the side of the tanks using rubber gaskets was sure to fail, but not yet. I took them off, cleaned, and then reinstalled using new silicone gaskets.
I also initially wanted to have them made taller/narrower to use the space above them, but after working on the plumbing a few times it was clear why CC had left the space above them. Any less and the tanks would have to be pulled much more often.
If you have a commercial plastics supply house near you, that might be a good place to find a local fabricator if you want to get some prices. They would know of small shops in your area that you'd never find on your own, and perhaps one of them is slow right now due to the Covid crisis and can make you a good deal on a new tank.
Gary, would that be Brown's?
I've been thinking about plastic for my gray and black tanks. Fiberglass might be another option. It's possible to buy cured sheets that are very durable and stiff, though I haven't checked on sizes and prices lately. That would leave the seams and fittings which shouldn't be much of a challenge. I'll probably be doing some glass work this summer anyway and already have the white suits.
I wonder about these plastic welders. What exactly are we talking about here, and how do they work? Seems like the end of the panel would have to be fully melted, and then the last panel might be tough to do.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on May 12, 2020, 09:20:50 AM
Gary, would that be Brown's?
I've been thinking about plastic for my gray and black tanks. Fiberglass might be another option. It's possible to buy cured sheets that are very durable and stiff, though I haven't checked on sizes and prices lately. That would leave the seams and fittings which shouldn't be much of a challenge. I'll probably be doing some glass work this summer anyway and already have the white suits.
I wonder about these plastic welders. What exactly are we talking about here, and how do they work? Seems like the end of the panel would have to be fully melted, and then the last panel might be tough to do.
Jim
The cheap plastic welders use heated air and a melting tip and are not so good.good plastic welders are exspensive you use those like you are brazing two pieces of metal together only with plastic and a plastic rod,I use a friends plastic welder that does plastic fab work he paid almost 3 grand for his plastic welder it is nice but you need to use one a lot for that price
HI;
Try also, Ardemco. They are a BCM advertiser. Got mine from Ardemco a lot of years ago and no problems.
Phone (800)253-0115. They are in Costa Mesa, Ca
Good luck :D
Quote from: bronson on May 11, 2020, 07:20:02 PM
I had a couple tanks made by a small shop in Martinsville Ohio. One tank was a black water tank for the bow of my boat. Drew up plans and they built exactly what I needed. Second was for the condensor of AC system i built for the same boat. Can't remember exactly but I think they were around $150 each. If south west Ohio is close for you I can see if they're still around.
I'm in Minnesota. I should have mentioned that.
Shipping from Ohio would likely be too expensive. Thanks though!
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on May 12, 2020, 09:20:50 AM
I wonder about these plastic welders. What exactly are we talking about here, and how do they work? Seems like the end of the panel would have to be fully melted, and then the last panel might be tough to do.
Jim
Here is the basic idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvV9a3lEe2g
Google is your friend.
Search "rectangular box tanks"
Long ago, water bed heaters were suggested to be put down under the tanks for freeze protection...
Who has a rig that did this, and does it still work?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I used Ronco Plastic tanks directly from the factory. https://ronco-plastics.com/product-category/boat-tanks/ . I had them make 2-98gal for my fresh water, 115gal for my gray, 69gal for black. All are rectangular tanks and all are white plastic so you can see through them. Specify heavy duty for a thicker wall. You can pickup from the factory and watch them spin weld the fittings. Highly recommend this company. I use the simple tank level gauge of being able to see the level through the plastic. If you do use this, don't tell them one of the tanks is for black tank-otherwise it will have carbon black in it and you can't see through it. They do this since some people get weirded out seeing floaters in the tank. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: luvrbus on May 12, 2020, 10:10:05 AM
The cheap plastic welders use heated air and a melting tip and are not so good.good plastic welders are exspensive you use those like you are brazing two pieces of metal together only with plastic and a plastic rod,I use a friends plastic welder that does plastic fab work he paid almost 3 grand for his plastic welder it is nice but you need to use one a lot for that price
The plastic welder I've got is a specialized heat gun with about 1/2" outlet. There are various metal shoes that go on the outlet, including some that you can use to feed the plastic welding rod. I've been able to use it to make some pretty decent test welds on 3/8" material. The key I found was using a plastic welding rod made of the same stuff as the tank, so I just used a table saw to rip cut narrow strips of it to use. Takes a bit of practice, but if you go slow enough it works.
Jim, Browns is the old filling station with the carryout and muffler shop. I don't believe the tank people are Browns but I will check next time I go through Martinsville. Population is small they could be though. The tank people operate out of a small shop. I found out about them when I worked at the airport and they built tanks for deicers and crash units.
Depending on your allocated budget of $ and time/effort to tanks, I'd always pondered repurposing the IBC tote 275gallon plastic tanks enclosed by metal cage. They are practically free if you hunt around a bit.
Seemed really easy to remove top of wire cage, cutting about 6-8" down the side. Remove the plastic tank, cut to desired volume. Then the hard part - how to reseal the two parts, ensuring no leaking or separating. Plastic welding was a candidate but never decided if such a weld would hold up. Finally, weld cut top back on. Depending on what works (i.e. holds up), it could be a really cheap way to go.
Quote from: windtrader on May 12, 2020, 11:28:50 PM
Depending on your allocated budget of $ and time/effort to tanks, I'd always pondered repurposing the IBC tote 275gallon plastic tanks enclosed by metal cage. They are practically free if you hunt around a bit.
Seemed really easy to remove top of wire cage, cutting about 6-8" down the side. Remove the plastic tank, cut to desired volume. Then the hard part - how to reseal the two parts, ensuring no leaking or separating. Plastic welding was a candidate but never decided if such a weld would hold up. Finally, weld cut top back on. Depending on what works (i.e. holds up), it could be a really cheap way to go.
Those tanks are pretty thin-walled and generally rely on the cage for support. Not sure I'd trust one.
Stainless steel is not a bad option if you can find a bargain and they are out there you can buy cheap and can be modified fairly easy if you are handy with a good mig welder
Plastic tanks a tough and long lasting. I installed mine in the bus in 1994 and not one problem. Good Luck, TomC
Go to a scrap yard with a tape measure after you determine the size of your tanks. Lots of cabinets and work tables from restaurants and such. Just buy the pieces that have the size of pieces you need. Cut to size after hauling home and have a competent welder assemble.
Quote from: chessie4905 on May 13, 2020, 10:54:51 AM
Go to a scrap yard with a tape measure after you determine the size of your tanks. Lots of cabinets and work tables from restaurants and such. Just buy the pieces that have the size of pieces you need. Cut to size after hauling home and have a competent welder assemble.
Lol I have a couple of the out dated vent hoods (not welded seams) they require now people have been cutting panels from those for years and I still have some 18x3 sheets left good idea Chessie.Stainless is just a better product than plastic bacteria won't grow in stainless either (no Light)
My original plan was to go to all stainless (I can TIG weld it, no problem) But I've heard the black water will corrode it. Anyone have experience with that?
Jim
Nothing reactive about plastic
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on May 13, 2020, 12:04:34 PM
My original plan was to go to all stainless (I can TIG weld it, no problem) But I've heard the black water will corrode it. Anyone have experience with that?
Jim
Not the tank the welded seam if you don't use the proper TIG rod or wire in a MIG ,they don't use plastic tanks in boats and I seen boats from the 60's the tanks have never been a problem,large SS tanks do need a baffle but so does plastic tanks
The stainless tanks in my bus were put in in 1983 and are still fine as far as i know. :)
We have polyethylene tanks since 1979. Replaced a black tank once but the potable water & the gray are holding up excellent.
I don't have much experience with metal fabrication, but I have done a fair bit of woodworking. Since working with plastic resembles woodworking, I've opted for that. I ordered the polypropylene today and will hopefully start digging into it more next week. Thanks to everybody for the suggestions.
Jed
The plastic would definitely be quicker and easier to work as far as cutting and trimming. It's the need for welding and reinforcement that would concern me. Some have recommended using a 3/4" plywood box for a plastic tank, I guess that would depend on the thickness of the plastic and other things. Of course the thicker the plastic is the more of a challenge to weld it I would think. Lots of heat required and a fine balance between too concentrated and too spread out, not to mention concern about the ambient temp, so maybe not that hard to do but maybe not that easy to do well. Just my thoughts.
Jim
I will say that our plastic tanks are doing very well due to the fact that they are encased (boxed in) with 3/4" plywood as support with 3/8" foam rubber between the tank & plywood. This condition isn't warranted until you get on bumpy roads (or off road). It makes a world of difference for the polyethylene tanks.
The life of plastic depends on what part of the US you live,plastic of any kind has a short life here in the AZ heat and sun ,I having a small debate now with Tractor Supply over my 25 gal spray tank with a 10 year warranty 5 years ago I bought the tank and pump now it has cracked and you can push holes into the tank with your finger it is so brittle
The plastic used on my tanks is 3/8" thick sheets with very smooth sides. They do have multiple baffles inside across the tank to reinforce the tall side walls, and after 45+ years there is no bowing at all.
I have stainless tanks only plastic is the drain connection and the compartment is covered with Stainless that needs cleaning lol
A suggestion if you are making your own hold down straps. When you weld the overlap, only weld the edges. You could also cut the overlap to an arrowhead shape and weld along the angles just as long as you do not weld across the strap, it weakens it and creates a point of failure along the weld.
There's a man with a steady hand.
I think it'll be easier for me to stick with the stainless, provided I can find a deal on the material. One of the local salvage companies that had a good bit of stainless quit selling to the public, the knuckleheads. I'm writing them out of my will. I'll think about using thicker material on the black tank. But if it ends up the same as my fresh water tank I think that will already be overkill. That one is 16ga and I personally built that tank from new materials back when we were building a big 3D metal printer. It was a prototype and got scrapped out so I cut it down. Still have some work to do on that one.
Jim
Our original black tank we replaced had vertical baffles. I didn't think they were there for rigidity of the side walls as much as retarders for sideways sloshing of the liquid. It was the plastic welds used on the baffles that developed a leak (@ almost 30 years old) the new replacement didn't have any - same mfger. To prevent any "flexing" on a plastic tank is an asset to the durability of the tank.
Quote from: ol713 on May 12, 2020, 10:24:19 AM
HI;
Try also, Ardemco. They are a BCM advertiser. Got mine from Ardemco a lot of years ago and no problems.
Phone (800)253-0115. They are in Costa Mesa, Ca
Good luck :D
I agree. Ardemco has over 400 different size tanks to offer. Unless you need a bastard configuration, they should have a tank to fit your space. They have been making these tanks for bus converter people for years.
I wonder if you couldn't use old fuel tanks off of a semi truck. Not the most efficient use of space, but should be cheap and durable i would think.
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on May 13, 2020, 03:49:45 PM
The stainless tanks in my bus were put in in 1983 and are still fine as far as i know. :)
1980 in my case...
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on May 20, 2020, 08:16:23 AM
I agree. Ardemco has over 400 different size tanks to offer. Unless you need a bastard configuration, they should have a tank to fit your space. They have been making these tanks for bus converter people for years.
Unfortunately, I need a bastard. :D
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on May 20, 2020, 08:56:59 AM
I wonder if you couldn't use old fuel tanks off of a semi truck. Not the most efficient use of space, but should be cheap and durable i would think.
Oh boy... someone did this years ago and it became a shouting match as to the suitability. Lots of people mad at one another over that to this day!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Hmmm......wonder how i missed that one! :)
Likely was over on BNO, might even have to go to the archives for it...
And what's there is the Moderated results, the hottest stuff had to be "adjusted"
Before social media, things needed a fair bit of Moderating and cautioning, when peeps got impassioned about their particular take on a project.
All that sort of less than polite and supportive style has an outlet elsewhere today.
Poor old Gary hasn't a clue how much work is involved in keeping a Board cleaned up, if those days were to return!!!
More trivia of busnuts long ago and the evolution of using the internet.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Ed sometimes us "OLD" people have to just be quite about how we have done somethings on our coaches.
uncle ned
Seems like an old fuel tank out of a bus would be a better choice, in terms of shape and capacity. Even comes with a level gage.
Jim
Ned, shhhh....:) Jim, hadn't thought of that. Would yank the gauge though, would probably quit working and never needed one anyway.
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on May 20, 2020, 07:17:31 PM
Hmmm......wonder how i missed that one! :)
Yeah I remember that incident, lol guess who owns that coach now? ;D
That was Ace over 15 years ago, I believe there never was any problem with his tanks
Jim, what, theoretically speaking, will the constituent components of urine do to aluminum or stainless?
And here we go!!!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Our 4104 had aluminum tanks when built by the converter. The holding tank needed to be replaced due to corrosion leakage after about 10 years. We replaced with hand built plastic from sheet stock and plastic welder.
You can't hardly compare the life of a plastic sprayer tank that is subjected to the sun and harsh chemicals to the hidden from light tanks on a bus. In the 26 years I've had my tanks (made by https://ronco-plastics.com/product-category/boat-tanks/ ) no problems at all. Ronco makes the tanks for Ardemco. Good Luck, TomC
Aluminum would be a problem of course. That might not be obvious to everyone. Once when I was a kid I had a nice aluminum hair comb I was really proud of. Put it in a glass of ammonia one night to clean it and the next morning it had no teeth! so there you have it. Don't use aluminum for the black water tank. Any base will eat it. It holds up pretty well to acids though. Over time detergents might attack it too since they are essentially a base buffered with a hydrocarbon.
The stainless... I'm not so sure. It's pretty impervious stuff overall so it probably depends mostly on the specific composition. I can't really see ammonia attacking nickel or chromium but you have a fair amount of iron in there too so over time the cheaper grades may pit. So just make sure it is a good grade of stainless and I suspect it will be OK. The more nickel and chromium in it the better basically.
Jim
Quote from: niles500 on May 21, 2020, 08:30:48 PM
That was Ace over 15 years ago, I believe there never was any problem with his tanks
Must have been a problem those tanks are not in that bus now ,for the capacity round tanks take to much space compered to a custom tank
No stainless for our water tanks. They leach Nickle because as Jim said above they have it in it. For people with Nickle allergies ( Like my wife) she has to stay away form it. Highly allergic to it.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on May 22, 2020, 02:53:17 PM
No stainless for our water tanks. They leach Nickle because as Jim said above they have it in it. For people with Nickle allergies ( Like my wife) she has to stay away form it. Highly allergic to it.
Rico told me in Switzerland where he lives all fresh water piping is done with Stainless Steel in commercial building and residential homes no plastic or copper allowed,I won't drink from anything made Vinyl Chloride (PVC).when I worked for Tenneco in the 60's I saw what that was made of
Also, if you are talking about fresh water tanks (you are, right?) aluminum is once again, maybe not the best choice. Medical opinions may have changed, but about 30 years ago the medical industry was making links between aluminum in the body and Alzheimer's disease. Because aluminum is a very reactive metal, avoiding taking it in via food or drink is probably a good idea. If you buy into that anyway. As likely as Nickel alergies I suppose so that's at least a possibility.
Regrettably the truly safe options for fresh water are few. Plastics as a class of materials have a nasty tendency towards something called "outgassing" in which they leach plasticizers. And since they are hydrocarbons there's a wide range of elements which can potentially have varying levels of toxicity. So although we like to think of plastics as safe, really it's more a point in the spectrum somewhere between safe and unsafe. Water bottles for instance can have up to 5 layers of plastics, the inner of which is usually PET, a relatively innocuous type.
Copper, aside from being a bit reactive can form oxides that are toxic.
Overall, steel is safer, or iron at least but it does rust. Maybe hardwood tanks would be the best for fresh water? Of course they can exude tannins but those don't tend to be particularly harmful. Maybe check with the water company and ask what they use?
Fresh and waste water tanks are very different things.
Jim
Another thing about the stainless. There do exist forms of stainless which contain very little or no nickel, Those are the chromium alloys.
Jim
Just gold plate the inside. :)
blah blah - just drink from a gallon plastic jug of store water. wash using the storage tanks. done
I run all my drinking water through a R O system plus a U V light and the water has not killed me yet ?
dave
How about plywood tanks lined with fiberglass?
Whenever we get the chance we like drinking from a cold stream with a giardia filter... 8)
On my big rig when I was driving, I had a 75 gal fuel tank (never used for fuel) as my water tank. Being aluminum, it reacted with the chemicals in the water and about once or twice a month would have to take apart the bottom fitting (water came out of the bottom of the tank) to clean the little pellets of calcium that had formed. I also had a filter before the water pump that had to be cleaned periodically. After 12 years of use, the tank was pitted inside, just gave it away to the recycler.
In contrast-never had these problems with the plastic tanks.
I think Aluminum is probably not the best idea in any case for all the reasons above. Maybe if you could get a liner made out of that white stuff they use for water hoses that would be good. Filters are great but only remove the particulate unless you also add an activated carbon filter which then needs changed more often and is an added expense. Still, a pretty good idea for the drinking water. How many here have the extra tap on the sink just for that? My guess, it's pretty common. If you do that it really helps a lot. The main thing is what water you drink and cook with unless alergies play a part. As for fiberglass, well the biggest thing there is proper curing. You basically have polyester and epoxy resins. The epoxy resin is probably the better choice but even then it takes awhile for the stink to go away. Wouldn't really want to be drinking that stuff, or much of it anyway. You can buy pre-cured panels which are great and very inert but the corners are still an issue.
And that's the thing, how much pollutants can you tolerate? How much is it worth to avoid them? If you were Midas I guess Ed might have a pretty good idea. Didn't the Romans all go crazy because of the lead and pewter tableware? We're much better off today. But sometimes it just comes down to what you have and what you can get. And if you run the water through fast enough maybe it won't pick up as much.
I used to have a white plastic water tank and black PVC waste tanks and after adding a filter for drinking water that seemed fine. This time I have a tank made from 304 Stainless for the fresh water and will most likely still add the filter and drinking water tap. That's a very good commercial grade, also referred to as 18/8. It has 18% chromium and 8% nickel. The Nickel stainless, generally in the 300 class is widely used in general manufacturing and are non-magnetic. Now that I know, I'll ask about nickel allergies before offering a glass of water. I guess I could start over but it really doesn't seem to be a problem in my family.
By contrast the 400 series are called ferritic stainless, are magnetic, and widely used in the food industry and automobile exhausts. 430 is the most common grade used in food service and has a maximum nickel content of 0.5% or 0.75% depending on the grade, and there are alloys with no nickel. That should be adequate for someone with a nickel allergy but an exposure test would be a good idea. The 400 series generally have good corrosion resistance, are formable and weld easily.
You could probably buy PVC or polyethylene sheets with a PET layer on one side and that should make an excellent water tank. It would be more expensive than straight PVC but maybe not all that much. My guess is that most of the commercial plastics suppliers would carry it, there has to be a demand.
For some of us, it's a question of what we can buy cheaply. Unused NOS fuel tanks, if a magnet sticks to it, should be an excellent choice (Unless it is galvanized of course), although the grade might not be quite up to food grade standards. But that only means it might rust a bit more easily so again a trade off. Stuff you find at the recyclers has an unknown history and should probably only be used for waste tanks. Overall we're an incredibly resourceful group though so who knows what the next hot thing will be?
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on May 23, 2020, 10:36:31 AM
Unused NOS fuel tanks, if a magnet sticks to it, should be an excellent choice (Unless it is galvanized of course), although the grade might not be quite up to food grade standards.
Are any diesel tanks made of galvanized steel? Doesn't diesel fuel react with zinc plating?
John
They used to use tin plating. The alcohols being used in blends, plays havok with the older coatings.
No, for drinking water you definitely don't want zinc and probably not tin either, although it's the less toxic of the two. Either would probably hold up OK to waste, at least better than bare steel, but do your own research on that.
In that quote I was referring to stainless and the fact that the 400 series (low nickel content) stainlesses are magnetic.
Jim
O no i have been drinking out of Huggy's aluminum tanks and aluminum beer cans for years.
No wonder I cannot remember my name.
Uncle ned
Quote from: uncle ned on May 24, 2020, 02:08:50 PM
O no i have been drinking out of Huggy's aluminum tanks and aluminum beer cans for years.
No wonder I cannot remember my name.
Uncle ned
Lol blame it something else Ned,I have friend that was plant manger for Continental Can in Texas the beer cans are coated on the inside
Damned can coatings ruin all those old campfire recipes that involve tossing the can into the embers...
Have you figured out how "the tank" discussion turned ugly years ago?
Thank god Scotch still is sent to us in glass, from those lovely barrels...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
If it's any consolation I am certain at most of our ages the carcinogens of the universe has already found & effected us so keep on keeping on.
You'll be OK Uncle Ned--unless you were eating paint chips before you were 5 years old. Three in Calif.
Paint chips! Yum!