Here's a thought, brought up by a Haggerty magazine, they are giving grants and scholarships to students that want to learn how to repair 32 thru 58 Ford flathead V8s. The thought came to me, this would be a great idea for some bus nuts progeny, that was fascinated by the sound of a DD 8V71or any 2 stroke or for that matter any interested young person, that would want to fix and make a career working on old DD engines, as our bus conversion/busnut legacy to future busnuts. What do you think? lvmci...
LOL the valves are a lot easier to adjust on the 2 strokes vs a flathead Ford engine I know that much
The military still trains two-stroke engine mechanics, last I heard. There are also shops which deal with marine engines that have two-stroke mechanics, and even some still running training programs.
The Interstate location I use services a lot of two-strokes at the marinas in Wisconsin, so they are training techs for when the old guys leave for retirement.
What might be a good way to run with your thought is to set up an apprentice program through a trade school for two-stroke mechanics.
The US Navy is the only branch left with 2 stroke engines and they are the 53 series,MTU still offers training for the 92 series but production of the 92 series has ended
On a trip through northern alberta in December was surprised to find many diesel repair shops still have plenty of old school two stroke mechanics training apprentices how to work on the many old pieces of farm trucks and equipment out there. Also parts shops still have a lot of 8v71 parts
Quote from: Knuckles on April 26, 2020, 07:28:39 AM
On a trip through northern alberta in December was surprised to find many diesel repair shops still have plenty of old school two stroke mechanics training apprentices how to work on the many old pieces of farm trucks and equipment out there. Also parts shops still have a lot of 8v71 parts
Our EPA and the California CARB has killed the old engines. MTU the owner estimates there 300,000 engines still being used world wide now down from 3 million 15 years ago
Quote from: luvrbus on April 26, 2020, 07:46:20 AM
Our EPA and the California CARB has killed the old engines. MTU the owner estimates there 300,000 engines still being used world wide now down from 3 million 15 years ago
May be so, but away from CARB country there is still a need for people to work on these. True, there are going to be fewer and fewer, but that could be said for lots of things that people still work on.
They are good engines for the average bus conversion owner,not a long life,not good emission,torque,fuel mileage but they get you home,the 4 strokes are better engines though.There are no new Detroit parts now for the 71 series only after market stuff since the 71 series have been out of production going on 25 years now
Without a doubt there are better engines out there. But we're not driving these old buses because they are the best - we drive them because we like old buses.
Same could be said for flathead V-8 engines or flathead straight 8 engines. Haven't been OEM new parts for decades, but many keep the old girls purring along. Still pretty good aftermarket business for them. Same for many other low-production cars that developed a following.
May not feel the same way in 20 years, but in 20 years I won't care as much about many things.
Yeah, but nothing sings beautiful like a Detroit.
I agree that in twenty years the old school mechanics will all be gone as well as parts availability but being retired and over sixty i doubt I'll have to worry about it in my lifetime. If i hit eighty and i still am in good enough health to go cruising I'll have to upgrade as a present to myself
I appreciate the nostalgic attraction, but then I didn't buy a bus for nostalgia. That can be taken to extremes. If you go back far enough you might even find an unsynchronized manual transmission. No thanks. I found a break point where the cost of the more modern equipment was comparable to the old and that's what I bought. 1996 was the year, 4 stroke, automatic, PS, webasto, and r134 AC was the game. Hard to say no to that.
Jim
Quote from: Knuckles on April 27, 2020, 06:33:48 AM
I agree that in twenty years the old school mechanics will all be gone as well as parts availability ...
That's been said for decades for many vintage vehicles. Despite that, there are still many on the road being enjoyed by their owners.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 27, 2020, 07:12:53 AM
I appreciate the nostalgic attraction, but then I didn't buy a bus for nostalgia. That can be taken to extremes. If you go back far enough you might even find an unsynchronized manual transmission. ...
Jim
Well, many of us are still driving buses with unsynchronized manual transmissions. Many. And it's not really that extreme.
We each have different reasons for having a bus. Some are using it merely as an alternative to a S&S motor home. Some have a bus because they like buses. Some go the vintage route because they like vintage vehicles. No right answer here. If someone doesn't want a vintage vehicle there are plenty of more modern options out there. Doesn't make it any less attractive to those of us that enjoy the vintage/antique ones.
It about the same as ice flavors plus some people enjoy working on old buses I always did but not now.Vintage buses are getting exspensive to keep up now with no parts available or factory support.I have a modern coach it is not a bus because I didn't want another bus to keep up.LOL there is a old saying about buses if you crawl around and look close you find a tag that says "Made in Hell"
Quote from: luvrbus on April 27, 2020, 08:33:52 AM
It about the same as ice flavors plus some people enjoy working on old buses I always did but not now.Vintage buses are getting exspensive to keep up now with no parts available or factory support.I have a modern coach it is not a bus because I didn't want another bus to keep up.LOL there is a old saying about buses if you crawl around and look close you find a tag that says "Made in Hell"
what he said
dave
What is there to "keep up" other than things that are worn out and needing replacement. Once done, shouldn't need fixed again for a long time. Now electronics in your unit...good luck when stuff starts to act up. Since it is pretty new, you may never have any issues, but...
I've seen some pretty ingenious solutions to problems on old/vintage vehicles. Even it OEM parts are not available, keeping the general look/style is usually possible while maintaining (or even upgrading) the drive train. Nothing magical about the drive train under a bus, with the exception of a few odd-ball parts. There have been lots of work-around solutions discussed on this site over the years for those. To me that's part of the fun.
Quote from: richard5933 on April 27, 2020, 04:03:10 PM
I've seen some pretty ingenious solutions to problems on old/vintage vehicles. Even it OEM parts are not available, keeping the general look/style is usually possible while maintaining (or even upgrading) the drive train. Nothing magical about the drive train under a bus, with the exception of a few odd-ball parts. There have been lots of work-around solutions discussed on this site over the years for those. To me tha 8)t's part of the fun.
You ever looked at GM bus real close 8),you cannot even buy brakes drums for a 4905 and I am sure there other models of GM no brake drums are available for. It's tough finding parts for GM buses even Luke's well is drying up.
Quote from: luvrbus on April 27, 2020, 04:39:12 PM
You ever looked at GM bus real close 8),you cannot even buy brakes drums for a 4905 and I am sure there other models of GM no brake drums are available for. It's tough finding parts for GM buses even Luke's well is drying up.
Not sure where you want people to go with that line of thinking though, other than for people to be aware. If people abandoned every collector vehicle when parts got tough to find there would be nearly zero vintage vehicles out there on the road. Parts problems are why we have places like Moss Motors, and a bunch of guys working to re-create unobtainium parts for GM 3751 buses right now.
I guess the bottom line on what I'm trying to say is that I think it's worth the effort to drive an old vintage bus. Not everyone agrees, I got it. Some want the convenience of call the manufacturer and just ordering parts. Some want the old buses.
When brake drums become impossible to find, and someone has a bus they want to continue driving, then some other solution will have to be found. Maybe that will be the time when someone decides it's time to figure out how to put air disc brakes on a vintage bus. I don't know what the answer will be, but I do know that this type of problem is not unique to buses.
Guys making parts for the SliversidIe,I know of 2 that bought body parts molds from Boomer,I wouldn't call that drive train parts,Richard most people here do there own work they don't take a bus to shop like you do and spend 5 grand on a AC unit.A lot of owners do not have 30g to drop on a engine or 10g for a Allison transmission either.Now shops like WW Williams will not work on anything over 20 years old.I know you like your bus and that is fine by me but people struggle to keep a bus going I see it everyday
I stopped at the Bus sales in Basset, Va. 10 years ago. At that time the owner stated he had a couple of van trailers full of GM parts.
Drums hard to find...how about Eagle drop boxes. Probably could get one of the brake drum manufacturers to remfg them if a large enough order was made. Didn't RTS have 10 x15 drums? Maybe a machine shop could cnc a pair from solid blocks of cast iron.
Quote from: luvrbus on April 27, 2020, 05:57:10 PM
Guys making parts for the SliversidIe,I know of 2 that bought body parts molds from Boomer,I wouldn't call that drive train parts,Richard most people here do there own work they don't take a bus to shop like you do and spend 5 grand on a AC unit.A lot of owners do not have 30g to drop on a engine or 10g for a Allison transmission either.Now shops like WW Williams will not work on anything over 20 years old.I know you like your bus and that is fine by me but people struggle to keep a bus going I see it everyday
I doubt you're recommending that people simply abandon their old buses with 2-strokes because parts are going to get hard to find. What's the alternative?
I agree that not everyone can afford to pay someone to work on their bus, but that's not the point. Whether I'm paying someone to do the work or doing it myself, the question is whether or not it can get done. Just like many can't afford to pay a shop to work on their old 2-stroke buses, they also can't afford to abandon them and upgrade to something newer.
And then there will be those that would still want the old bus regardless. Not as many as there once was, but they're out there. There are currently a number of threads with people actively looking for 'new-to-them' vintage buses. Whatever your thoughts about Scott over at BGM, he has sparked lots of interest in older buses and has brought lots of young blood to the hobby. In the end that will be good for all of us.
Did anyone at GM in the 40s ever think that in 2020 a GM 3751 would still be running and being used on a regular basis? Or even a GM 4104? They're still running because they were well built and because people love running them.
Richard I tell people do the math is a $5,000 converted GM,Eagle,MCI or other bus worth spending 30G's on for repairs when 30g or 40g would buy a better bus.I have no problem with people driving a classic if they have the funds to maintain it sadly they don't and they walk away in debt
Quote from: chessie4905 on April 27, 2020, 06:20:57 PM
I stopped at the Bus sales in Basset, Va. 10 years ago. At that time the owner stated he had a couple of van trailers full of GM parts.
Drums hard to find...how about Eagle drop boxes. Probably could get one of the brake drum manufacturers to remfg them if a large enough order was made. Didn't RTS have 10 x15 drums? Maysbe a machine shop could cnc a pair from solid blocks of cast iron.
call me chessie if you need a drop box heck I can even fix you up with a V730 for the left turner
Thanks, I have a spare V730. What's a drop box? Can't find it on my coach.lol
Btw, notice how easy that engine and transmission comes out and goes back into a GMC?😊
Quote from: chessie4905 on April 28, 2020, 05:00:49 AM
Thanks, I have a spare V730. What's a drop box? Can't find it on my coach.lol
Btw, notice how easy that engine and transmission comes out and goes back into a GMC?😊
They don't come out any easier than a MCI,Prevost or a Eagle in fact the GM goes back harder with a V730 attached
That's just because you're used to MCI and Eagles. The next one will go easier.
Not only made in hell bring lots of money. And I'm 80 so in another 20 years I will not care either or maybe I will
Hey all I'm saying is that in the $5-10K range for a shell or a good starting point it's hard to do any better than a mid 90's MCI. There are some disadvantages of course, and it'll be a few more years before they are ever considered vintage. And they are big which is both good and bad. Good engine but not too much electronics. Good transmission and no clutch. Beyond that it's really mostly all good. I considered vintage, just about long enough to think about how much fun I'd have backing out of a downhill dead end around a corner. Or keeping up with 80mph traffic and such. (Although it isn't necessary I sort of prefer to get away from city traffic rather than wallow in it.) Then too if all else was equal, and it never is, then an extra 2mpg is always welcome. For me it was mostly a matter of stretching the war chest though. The most I could have possibly come up with for an initial outlay was $15k and for that money you're basically stuck with a well used S&S. Uh-uh. No thanks BTDT. But for a bit over 1/3 of that I was able to have a '96 MCI delivered to my door. Took some time to find it, but it wasn't a fluke. I think anyone would agree that's a helluva starting point. Could have done way worse very easily so it does represent the clean end of the stick but what I did was take nearly a year to research and find the deal I was looking for. With a bigger budget it would be easier/quicker but not necessarily better.
I do think the vintage busses look cool. But at 6'2" the headroom impresses me far more.
Jim
Quote from: luvrbus on April 27, 2020, 07:26:39 PM
Richard I tell people do the math is a $5,000 converted GM,Eagle,MCI or other bus worth spending 30G's on for repairs when 30g or 40g would buy a better bus.I have no problem with people driving a classic if they have the funds to maintain it sadly they don't and they walk away in debt
I think for most of the people with older buses a newer bus would never be a "better" bus. I bought a 1964 bus for the same reason I bought my 1966 Chrysler. It was my first car and needs work here and there but in the last 7 years I've put just under 80,000 miles on it (240k total) and I could hop in today and drive to Alaska. My 90s car on the other hand has a proprietary computer in it. Any vehicle with that is tied to the whims of the manufacturer.
Finding parts for an old vehicle may be a pain sometimes but if you keep an eye on things and replace them by sourcing parts before they leave you on the side of the road you can have a great vehicle and turn heads everywhere you go.
I'm going to disagree with any use of the term "better" without qualifications.
The whole conversation about "better" starts and ends with what one individual considers "better", what particular features he's looking for, the intended use, etc. etc. etc.
For me a newer bus might be easier, might be faster, might be roomier, might even be more reliable. But it wouldn't be "better". Why? Simply put, because I want a vintage bus. I have nothing against newer buses, but I don't want one right now.
Kind of like telling someone out on a high-wheel bicycle that it would be "better" to get a newer bike. Might be safer, faster, or even more convenient. But if the reason the guy is on the high-wheel is because he enjoys riding the high-wheel, no other bike is going to be "better."
The best part of the MCI DL3 is they are still in production after 24 years (D4500) so there plenty of used and new parts available almost 30,000 were manufactured to date that is unbelievable ,they have a rust area but are not that hard to repair on the 90 models.lol and no rusted out air beams to deal with either
They are the MC-9 of modern times. Find a desert car with no corrosion and you have a pretty bullet proof platform (even tho I'm a Prevost guy) but have owned lots of MC-8's and 9's.
If you want keep older equipment going with minimal parts you should emulate the Cuban's that kept 1950's vehicles going for decades with no parts support. I was impressed to see them do things like turn tire rubber on a lathe to make O-rings. They could probably fashion some brake drums for a 4905 from some Russian truck. :o
I think it's great that some of you guys are keeping the old iron rolling. I'll never match your accumulated miles but then I never wanted to either. Goes to what Richard says about better and I really agree with that. What kept me from buying a bus 20 years back was the requirement to do a roof raise. I even put up a building that I made sure was large enough if I decided to do that but in the end it wasn't necessary as prices came down on the D models. And oddly enough, that extra 2mpg with the 4 strokes was the turning point. I'm well aware that it doesn't make any sense, but the difference between getting 6-7mpg and getting 8-9 was enough to turn the tide. At that point I could begin to say it was almost as economical as my pickup instead of saying it took twice as much fuel. It's a psychological thing but that never diminished the importance. From that point on the little things started to add up. Air suspension, check. Automatic, check. Aux heating unit, check. r134 AC system, check. That's just the larger items. But hands down the largest was the price.
Jim
Old bus new bus depends what turns your crank if you like vintage and love wrenching on them buy old. If you just want to drive without wrenching buy new with warranty. If you don't mind a little tinkering get something inbetween but we are all busnuts because we love buses not some stick and staple piece of crap that won't last five years and has the looks of an alien spaceship
Quotewe love buses not some stick and staple piece of crap that won't last five years and has the looks of an alien spaceship
Well, we know what ranks on your list Knuckles. :) I have to agree; however, based on new RV sales numbers, there are many more who don't mind spending a bundle on them pieces of crap. It is mind boggling that some pay north of six figures for a converted Sprinter van, really?I'll keep wearing my "I'm a busnut" lapel pin everywhere.
Quote from: windtrader on May 04, 2020, 08:47:30 AM
Well, we know what ranks on your list Knuckles. :) I have to agree; however, based on new RV sales numbers, there are many more who don't mind spending a bundle on them pieces of crap. It is mind boggling that some pay north of six figures for a converted Sprinter van, really?
I'll keep wearing my "I'm a busnut" lapel pin everywhere.
LOL give us a break I own a 2007 Country Coach Magna that is as good as any bus I have ever owned.Rides,drives good, quite with plenty of power with the ISX 600 hp Cummins that averages 7.1 mpg plus no heating issues and I could have purchased a nice Prevost for the same amount of money but I went in a different direction for a reason
Exactly the point being made here that every person wanting and buying an RV has different desires (directions). It just so happens members here have a similar profile of preferences that makes owing a converted bus RV the better choice.
Clifford - you are grandfathered in here to your long history with buses and recently have a different profile/set of needs that led you to purchase a non bus RV.
Quote from: windtrader on May 04, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
Exactly the point being made here that every person wanting and buying an RV has different desires (directions). It just so happens members here have a similar profile of preferences that makes owing a converted bus RV the better choice.
Clifford - you are grandfathered in here to your long history with buses and recently have a different profile/set of needs that led you to purchase a non bus RV.
LOL true Don I been here since the beginning, a lot of old farts that started here have gone in different directions and sold our buses but I still have 1 left after selling the DL3 and tons of bus owner friends tthat keep me busy 8)
It's more important for you and Sonja to enjoy each other and life than spending days working on a conversion that may take months to years to finish, along with all the work in the shop for others. As wine bottle of life passed the halfway point some time in the past, time is now to rearrange priorities. Good choice.
Another good, finer point on "best".
My journey and other more recent busnuts down the tarmac road - DIY conversion or buy converted. My initial chosen route was to REALLY want to DIY but as research progressed it became clear "best" for me was a course correction leading to finding a converted bus.
Primary reasons, as you state, amount of time before you can actually have it done and use it without compromise, and the economics these days offering incredible values in both time and money, plus "buy and go", such the American way! lol
That said, others have different motivations, like take lots of time and spend lot of money, and wait a long time to use.
Or... it could just be aiming to hit a target. Like in my case, my wife's retirement date and my operating budget combined with my own somewhat above average fabrication skills, all of which point to a spot a few years down the road. In which case it is as much the journey as the end goal. And so far that journey has been a fine thing, filled with great fellowship, even if it has not included a campground.
Jim
Quote from: richard5933 on April 29, 2020, 07:49:01 AM
I'm going to disagree with any use of the term "better" without qualifications.
The whole conversation about "better" starts and ends with what one individual considers "better", what particular features he's looking for, the intended use, etc. etc. etc.
For me a newer bus might be easier, might be faster, might be roomier, might even be more reliable. But it wouldn't be "better". Why? Simply put, because I want a vintage bus. I have nothing against newer buses, but I don't want one right now.
Kind of like telling someone out on a high-wheel bicycle that it would be "better" to get a newer bike. Might be safer, faster, or even more convenient. But if the reason the guy is on the high-wheel is because he enjoys riding the high-wheel, no other bike is going to be "better."
BRAVO!! :D
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 27, 2020, 07:12:53 AMIf you go back far enough you might even find an unsynchronized manual transmission. No thanks.
Jim
Its not that far back, my new to me MCI is a 1989 and if it ever had synchros you could have fooled me. Not that it matters as i float gears all day in a dump truck and take great pride in damn near never touching the clutch. Sure it takes a little practice and skill but treat them right and they work nice and smooth. Admittedly, its a MUCH slower process going through this 5 speed than the 8 in my truck.
Funny how trucks and busses are so advanced in some ways and so behind in others. When did synchros become a standard in cars, the 30's maybe? So it took another 50 years to catch on in trucks. Not that it bothers me, I learned to shift an unsynchronized box and shift without the clutch at a young age. At one time that was considered a kind of test of Manhood. (If you could go from 2nd to 4th on the old farm tractor without touching the throttle or grinding the gears you really knew your stuff, especially if it was uphill under load.) But given a choice I'll take the synchros. Or better yet, the automatic. Those have become exceptionally good. It was really always just a matter of time though.
Jim
No synchros in the heavy stuff.
Only managed to make it to the medium duty, and they are problematic once the miles pile up.
Too much spinning mass, too many duty cycles.
Doesn't really matter, huge percentage of the new build going out the door with an automated transmission anyway. Let the computer take care of it all...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I had the pleasure of driving a J4500 with the Allision TC 10 speed they are testing for bus use,it is amazing no pause between shifting like the other automatic shift 10 speeds and so smooth really it is the best of both worlds
Clifford - going soft in your old age, eh? Guess newer technology sometimes makes life easier. 8)
USA heavy duty manuals are the only non synchronized transmissions left. European trucks and buses have fully synchronized manual transmissions. Some with shift assist. BUT you have to use the clutch at every shift-that isn't a problem with air assist clutch pedal. I was on a DAF bus tour in Europe and it had an 8 speed with shift assist-meaning you couldn't pull it in until it was at the right rpm and all in one stick-no air shift button. Good Luck, TomC