Hi team,
Heading east on I-10 in Louisiana and got a code for low oil pressure and engine shut down. Was able to start again after ignition cycle and pull off hwy at idle speed and into a grocery store parking lot. Oil pressure less than 20 PSI at full throttle blip. Checked the plug and cleaned it with electronic cleaner. No dice. It was fine before this so I'm wondering if my oil pressure regulator bit the dirt? I'm looking through my manual and the internet to try and figure out what's wrong. I'm in the boonies so no truck repair super close to me and I have a concert Friday night in Mobile so I'm hoping to figure this out quickly. Oil level is fine. Double and triple checked that. Not dumping oil on the ground anywhere any more than the dribbles and drips it always has done over the past 4 years. Please walk me through a few troubleshooting steps.
Did you have any codes beside 35 ?.you can disconnect the ops and check the sensor with Pro/Link if have one
Do you have a mechanical gauge in the engine bay to confirm the reading?
Could it be diesel in the oil? I'm hoping for just a simple sensor error of course, just thinking of other things that could cause low oil pressure.
Ok sorry for the delay. Been spending the day trying to troubleshoot. Here's where I'm at:
1. My mechanical gauge in the engine compartment was broken so I bought a new one and installed that. Confirmed that I'm getting 20-25 psi max rpm. Engine computer tells me low oil pressure and it shuts down.
2. Replaced oil filter with a fresh one just to eliminate that as a possibility. Didn't change anything.
3. Engine doesn't seem to be leaking oil or blowing it out anywhere any more than it's usual dribbles and leaks.
What else causes a low reading? Oil pressure regulator? Is there such a thing?
If the oil pump went bad wouldn't I just be getting zero oil pressure?
I think I'm out of my league at this point. Anyone know of a good detroit service shop near Lafayette LA? That where we are. Going to need a tow to wherever.
Scott, doing a search I found;
Stewart & Stevenson Power Products LLC
401 Commercial Parkway
Broussard, LA
337-837-9001
Hope this helps,
Gary D
Thanks Gary, but I already checked this place out and they are permanently closed unfortunately.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 16, 2020, 02:19:30 PM
Ok sorry for the delay. Been spending the day trying to troubleshoot. Here's where I'm at:
1. My mechanical gauge in the engine compartment was broken so I bought a new one and installed that. Confirmed that I'm getting 20-25 psi max rpm. Engine computer tells me low oil pressure and it shuts down.
2. Replaced oil filter with a fresh one just to eliminate that as a possibility. Didn't change anything.
3. Engine doesn't seem to be leaking oil or blowing it out anywhere any more than it's usual dribbles and leaks.
What else causes a low reading? Oil pressure regulator? Is there such a thing?
If the oil pump went bad wouldn't I just be getting zero oil pressure?
Confirmed good oil pressure, so wouldn't it be a bad oil sending/sensor unit or wiring in that area that's giving the DDEC the bad info?
Scott, this is a long shot, but they say they do oil and gas field work, maybe 2 strokes? I'm praying for you and your family.
Gary D
Northside Engine Service and Parts, I N C
1510 Moss St, Lafayette, LA 70501, us
(337) 233-2241
Thanks Gary, I have a list of places I'm calling in Baton Rouge tomorrow. I'll reach out to these guys too.
Mikey, the oil pressure isn't good. 25 psi max isn't enough. It usually runs around 35-40 psi max throttle/load.
Some specific questions:
1. Would a cracked oil pickup tube or clogged screen cause low oil pressure?
2. Would a pressure regulator stuck cause low oil pressure?
3. Donn is saying I should just roll in new bearings since I have the pan dropped and worn ones can cause the low oil pressure. I'm game to have the shop do this since I never have. What day you?
Could be cracked or broken oil rings also but would probably have fuel in the pan too.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 16, 2020, 06:31:56 PM
Some specific questions:
1. Would a cracked oil pickup tube or clogged screen cause low oil pressure?...
Didn't Scott over on Bus Grease Monkey just have this problem in his Silverside? Not saying it's the same for you, but if my memory is correct he just fixed a crack in his pickup tube that was causing wonky oil pressure when oil level dropped.
Did you happen to notice recent lowering of running oil pressure? If it is somewhat gradual, I would suspect fuel in the oil. If it happened quickly, I would think pressure regulator. Bearings should be a gradual thing over time. If you drop the pan, definitely check bearings though, even if it turns out to be the regulator, just to check their condition while they are at it. How many miles since rebuild?
This seemed to happen pretty quickly. Oil pressure while driving typically sat around 40 psi give or take while under load driving...would sometimes creep to 50 psi under full throttle. Now it's barely 25 psi under full throttle. Someone explain to a guy trying to learn how worn lower bearings causes low oil pressure.
Normal bearing clearances in any engine allow the oil to cool and lubricate the clearance between the connecting rods and crankshaft journals, or cylinder block main bearing journals and crankshaft bearing surfaces. Also any other bearing areas in engine, of which there several. The oil sheds from these areas during rotation in a designed amount. As bearings wear, more oil is shed, to the point that the oil pump, which is designed to have some extra capacity, can't keep up with the excess oil shedding and max oil pressure starts dropping some. A quick bearing loss or pressure regulator malfunction can cause this. The regulator is designed to maintain proper range oil pressure, regardless of engine speed or temperature. It opens to lower oil pressure or closes some to raise it. This goes on constantly during it's life. Sticking closed some, can cause abnormally high pressures. Sticking open, can cause lower or no pressure. Btw, a broken pressure spring can cause this.
Scott I'd call Stewart Stevenson down south and see if they know of anybody they would trust up there. I know when I had mine into San Antonio a couple years back , the Shop Foreman ,Tom, just had a couple Ole Fellas that worked on 2 strokes and said the one in Harvey had several mechanics as the Fishing Boats still had a ton of them running. They also had service trucks to go to the docks. You have a towing service contract like CoachNet?
LA - New Orleans
1400 Destrehan Ave.
Harvey, LA 70058
Tel: (504) 347-4326
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 17, 2020, 04:27:12 AM
This seemed to happen pretty quickly. Oil pressure while driving typically sat around 40 psi give or take while under load driving...would sometimes creep to 50 psi under full throttle. Now it's barely 25 psi under full throttle. Someone explain to a guy trying to learn how worn lower bearings causes low oil pressure.
Pumps don't of themselves generate pressure. Pumps move volume - restrictions create pressure. More restriction = more pressure so loose bearings let more volume through which in turn lets the pressure drop off. When the pressure gets above what the engineers wanted the relief valve opens. Based on your description of the onset of symptoms my money is on a stuck relief valve.
Most oil pumps have a pressure relieve valve that is simply a ball or piston held on a seat with a calibrated spring behind it. Many times a piece of crud will be trapped between the seat and ball or piston ,, allowing some of the normal pressure to escape through the valve,,, you see the result on the pressure gauge,,the engine see's it with lower operating pressure,, and a sensor see's it as a fault and shuts the engine down..>>>Dan
And the relief Valve would be found where on the pump? Or
if either regulator fails on either side of the engine it will dump oil back into the pan that sounds like your issue ], a cracked pickup tube the pressure will not hold steady
if either regulator fails on either side of the engine it will dump oil back into the pan that sounds like your issue ], a cracked pickup tube the pressure will not hold steady it cavatates you over come that by adding a gal or 2 of oil to get going .
Ok this is good info. Thanks for schooling me. I can't seem to find a shop anywhere near Lafayette that I trust. I've literally spent two days calling them all. I ask them if they can work on a two stroke Detroit and I get the "wah? Duh?" response. I found a single shop (literally just one) in Baton Rouge 70 miles away that immediately said "yep, we don't get them too often but we have a couple of guys here that know their way around two stroke Detroit's" and I think that's mainly because of all the marine repairs they have to do for boats there. So I have to try to convince State Farm that it's necessary to tow me there. That's gonna be a very very expensive tow bill for them so I expect a fight. Man I wish I had a friend nearby who could walk me through doing this myself. But I just can't take the chance.
Call the traveling monkey
Maybe you could try the Prevost group via Facebook. Maybe Cliff has a contact person. Yeah, I know you have a MCI.
Quote from: windtrader on January 19, 2020, 01:24:44 AM
Call the traveling monkey
He's working in Texas on a Wonderlodge right now, so he's close...
Hey guys, I've called Scott Crosby more than once. He never wants to work on my coach. This time he said to me he doesn't work on DDEC anything. So I can't ever make use of his services as much as I could really use his help and would happily pay his rates. It doesn't make sense to me because DDEC or not rolling in new bearings and dropping the pan has nothing to do with DDEC. But oh well. I have to get it up and running with concerts scheduled in Florida for the next month. So to a shop it is. I've narrowed down to two shops in Baton Rouge:
All Truck Parts and Equip
Baton Rouge Diesel Services Inc
I'll call them both tomorrow morning and try to see which one I like better.
there is no difference in a ddec than the mechinal except the oil pan has reusable gasket Scott look for United Engine they own S and S and have closed some old locations
Thanks Cliff. No United Engine nearby... yeah I didn't think this was a big deal but he's busy and headed the other direction so I just have learned to just figure this stuff out on my own. It's par for the course.
Still waiting for a tow today. State Farm has been making some mistakes. Finally talked to the right guy and he said they are dispatching a low boy. I've never had my buses on a low boy before so this will be a new experience for me.
Scott Crosby is doing the bearings on the Wanderlodge now or was, could maybe watch the video. I'm not sure he's going into the torque specs and everything.
Crazy hair brained idea here. What about trying to run some thicker oil?
http://www.tejascoach.com/ddcoil.html
QuoteDelo 100 is also available in 50 WT. It will give a tired engine some more compression and bring up the Oil Pressure. The heavier viscosity oil will boost the oil pressure and at the same time it could increase your compression in turn helping the engine run cooler and possibly smoke a little less.
Maybe a combination of Delo 50wt and Lucas oil treatment? get the viscosity up or down, whatever is thicker. Just enough to give those old bearings a little more life.
Depending on the height of the low-boy deck, your total height is going to be around 15', or a little more. Make sure the driver knows his total height, and what bridges he needs to be concerned about. He might not realize you raised it by 8". :o
Viscosity won't really help, if it is the relief valve failing, it will still dump the pressure overboard, so to speak.
This coach has to run reliably, and taking chances isn't in the cards, Scott earns his income travelling.
Tow to the doctor is a good economic decision.
I'd be all over that low-boy driver to be sure he knows exactly what is going on height wise. Poorly strung power lines enter the equation at 15 feet...
Another nail in the 2 stroke coffin, eh?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Evidently the plan changed. He just posted pix on FB of the bus on a stinger behind a tri-axle wrecker. I suppose height is still a consideration but not so much as if it was on a lowboy.
Maybe the tow outfit did some height calculations and wisely changed plans.
Scott is a nice young man I have my fingers crossed it only a regulator and not the rear main on his engine
Yep they decided to bring in a hook. All went smooth. Bus is at a shop now that I fully trust after talking to the owner and his father. Gray hairs, really super nice, loved on my kids. Know their stuff. Going to attack it tomorrow. So I never realized my ddec monitoring laptop had a screen for oil pressure. Just checked it today when I had to start the bus so we could move it around in the shop and on cold start I had decent oil pressure. Idle pressure once it warmed up was about 14psi.
We have been watching and biting our nails through this. I am not any help with mechanical advice, but we are praying for you, your family and now the mechanics.
Davy
How much extra clearance is there between top of coach and building? Looks close from picture. Glad you found a location. Hopefully it is just a regulator and not in need of bearings.
Thanks Davy, appreciate that!
You know, I'm
Not sure how much clearance there is. They pushed me in there with a forklift and I was just pointing the steering wheel. Didn't even pay attention to the clearance!!!
When I was guesstimating your height, I figured you were about 12' 4". They probably have a 14' door.
I'm right around 13' top of roof airs.
Holy Moly the ads have gotten crazy on here. On the iPhone at least. I can't hardly find the reply button anymore and every time I reply another ad pops up that I have to close in order to reply. And the last one was in Chinese.
Scott been following your post - the best of luck on your issue.
10-4 on the barrage of ads. It doesn't seem to matter weather on mobile smart phone or home PC the ads are everywhere....
Good luck!
Yup, the reply button seems to be at the top of the thread, instead of at the bottom, where it belongs...
Ads appear in the middle of posts, before them, after them...
This hobby sure has tamed over the years, this would have triggered a revolt and a lynching not even 10 years ago...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
The reply is at the top and bottom on mine
The "reply" is at the top and bottom as always and I receive NO AD'S.>>>Dan
Using a Galaxy Note 9 with Firefox for Android, I'm seeing ads at both top and bottom. Usually filling more of the screen than not. Reply button sometimes shows on both top and bottom, but not always. I think that the Google ads are messing with the layout. If I request the desktop site and then switch back to the mobile, I'll be ad free for a few screens, but they come back quickly.
There's got to be a better way to do this for mobile users that doesn't make things so difficult. Any other site than BCM I would have given up trying to access the site on mobile already. I stay because I value the content and collective wisdom here.
Gary has to pay the bills so I understand but I'm wondering if sponsorship kills the ads?
UPDATE: I may have destroyed my engine. They are polishing the crank and replacing the bearings and going to see if we caught it in time. If she locks up when she's turned over, my busing days are done for a while.
Lots of metal shavings in my oil pan.
pic #1 dark chunk in upper left quadrant? Cut oil filter open yet?
Whom ever did that one the last time sure didn't bother with checking the line bore on the block and caps when they wear on the bottom like that Houston has a problem what a shame Scott big dollars
internet adds--I don't see any... chromebook & Firefox Bob
Maybe after crank polishing & bearing replacement it'll rotate fine & dandy - we're hoping...
As an 8v92 guy myself I really ache for you. "There but for the grace of God..."
How do you think this happened, and what if anything could've been done to prevent or minimize?
Mike in GA
Mike
I have no idea. I've never overheated this coach. It's always had 40w oil. I replaced the turbo last year and it wasn't leaking oil. But I've only put on 55,000 miles or less on this bus. So who knows what it's life was like before me.
Scott it is to bad but I guess that explains why you had so many new parts left over from the PO you gave me he didn't use them,the 8v92's need to be checked thoroughly before throwing a inframe kit in one,that is why DD never sold a so called inframe kit
Right you are. It is what it is. So my next question...in reading the dimensions of a 12.7 60 series vs the 8v92, what stops me from fitting a 60 series into my 102C3 engine bay? Besides the obvious engine mount fabrication?
S60 is going to be about 12 inches longer, by my spec sheets.
In an eagle, length is an issue with a series 60. (Not that it can't be done)
Don't know anything about an MCI, but I do think you would have to add a air to air charge air cooler.
He can install a series 50 that is about the only option he has for a 4 stroke without spending a bundle of $$$$$$,if you side mount a single radiator it opens a different world
Maybe a reman. 8V-92 would be cheapest in the long run and quickest to get back on the road. With all that metal, complete teardown and thorough cleaning is only way to guarantee no chunks of metal go through it and have a repeat failure. Patching and crossing your fingers isn't a good idea in your line of work with schedules to keep.
If only I could find one. Silver DDEC II
Scott, I just sold my MCI 102C3 with a series 50 engine. That would be the best way for you to go but it isn't cheap if you do it right. I put in a B-500 and changed the gears to 4:11. If I did it again I would use 4:50 gears. The pre EGR engines are getting hard to find, but there are still some around. If you could find a MCI 12 and take all the parts out that would be the easiest. The MCI 12 rear won't fit your bus you would have to re gear yours.
If you have it done look to spend 20,000 to 25,000 for parts and labor.
Jack
Thanks Jack for that info. Ok guys, so someone recommended a reman. Should I just find a low mile 8v92 silver and pop it in there? swap and pop?
Maybe with new bearings the shop can buy you a little time before you make the plunge
I know it's a long way away, but C&J Bus repair out of BLoomington, MN has a silver 8v92 fresh reman with all the trimmings (turbo blanket, exhaust manifold blankets etc) in the warehouse. I saw it when they gave me the tour , they said someone ordered it years ago, and never picked it up.
I know they support bus RV folks, they did me right on an alternator.
Ask for JD if he's in, and if it's worth considering.
That sounds interesting. I'm looking for a ddec ii just for an easy swap. Don't want to have to run cables to the throttle etc.
I have no idea if it's DDEC or not, it looked new enough though.
So bus is running but airbox drains are definitely leaking more oil than I'd like. We all realized it's a ticking time bomb. I have 45-50 psi of oil pressure hot and it's running perfectly since bearing replacement and crank polishing, but upper engine is tired and will grenade eventually sooner than later. We spent $4000 and bought some time. Need a silver DDEC ii 8v92TA. Also, can someone explain to me why I'd have to regear if I put a 50 series in?
What gears right now?
Quote from: 6805eagleguy on January 22, 2020, 04:18:30 PM
What gears right now?
Not sure. 102C3. Jack mentioned he had done a swap and had to regear.
I would change the oil filter more often now, and change the oil fairly soon as well. You might have always used a garage to change the oil, but when I change it, I drain it into a large wheeled plastic drain with a drain platform that lets you see or hear any larger particles coming out. Oil analysis would have warned you of the bearing changes, but if you run it for the time being, it still might be wise to test it. You might get lucky and wing it for another 100,000, or not, but at least get an early warning. There might not be a radical difference between DDEC II & III, hookup wise. Another thing that might help longevity is turning down to a lower horsepower setting (like where it was originally). Flying up the hills is fun, but getting up them with reasonable cost is cool too. ;)
Scott, I didn't regear mine when I put in the series 50, But mine has 6th gear locked out and wouldn't do any good with the fast gearing in the rear end. But in the long run I really like the 50 series. Good luck Jason
If you are getting oil out of the air box drains, have the blower overhauled it should set you back less than 1 bus unit $1000.00.
You can get by without changing the gears in the rear, but you will not have anywhere the power you need on start up and the long pulls. You won't be able to get in 6 th gear. The series 50 that I put in my Eagle had a 3:73 rear and 740 trans. Ran great but turned too many rpm's.
Jack
Anybody
What is the place (I thought was in Louisiana) American rebuild or something like that. He was on this board a few years ago. Claimed complete exchange or rebuild in three or so days.
Rick
Glad to hear you are up and running, Scott. At least you will be able to keep some of your schedule and hopefully be able to plan your next downtime where it is a little more convenient for you.
It seems like the shop worked with your need to get going in mind.
American Fleet in Springfield, Missouri might be the place someone was recommending above. I believe they are a first-class operation and know their Detroit engines.
http://www.americanfleetinc.com/?utm_source=GMB&utm_medium=Local%20Listing
Davy
Echo the recommendation of American Fleet. My MC8 is a rebuilt 8V71 from them; so far, working great.
It is a love /hate relation with American Fleet same with Relbilt engines for most owners but when you start shipping a 8v92 from point A to B and back it cost big money now I shipped one to Arkansas was over a 1000 bucks
Come on Chessie!!! Whats the name of the amish boys is southern Pa.
So I just drove it almost 400 miles without issue. Had plenty of power, boost was good, and just checked the oil and didn't use any. Like zero. Oil still looks amazing after the oil change it was given yesterday. Not sure what to think... doesn't blow any kind of white or blue smoke while driving. Does it at idle though. Just over fueling a little on take off as it always has after smoke control was disabled. Do I drive this? What do I do? Worst oil pressure I saw under full throttle and load was around 35psi. Less when lugging and of course 10 psi at low idle... highest I saw was 66psi when I first started it this morning. Flooring the throttle and downshifting gets me 40-44psi.
Cliff and I were just chatting, anyone remember the place in california that sells two stroke engines? They advertise here on the board.
It is Transit Sales ,Riverside CA 951-684-9585 ask for Mundo
Scott,
How you proceed from here is the basic risk/reward question. Risk, in your case, includes economic weight due to fact you are at risk of losing revenue and creating unhappiness as related to your business. Your decision is spans more than personal factors as your bus represents a valued and critical business asset.
A repower won't be cheap, if it were me, I'd be finding my next power plant, maybe a few options around the country. When it turns into a must Do it, until then, let it ride. Run oil tests regularly, it would warn of a similar situation. I'd run some Lucas in there to keep the oil pressure up anyway.
Maybe all rout need is a rebuilt blower , and or glare if you can sync up with Scott Crosby on your travels for him to give it a once over.
From what I know about mechanical failures, there is a runaway point at which it turns catastrophic. You found that point with the bearings, they could have been worn for a while, and when the power was turned up it was only a matter of time. Now you're good to go maybe? I'm a glass half full kinda person.
I've been watching videos from Scott over on Bus Grease Monkey as he works on a number of 8V92 engines recently, and he has been saying for a while the importance of getting the bearings changed on them as part of routine maintenance at 100,000 miles or so. (can't remember exact number)
Wonder how many miles were on the engine since the last bearing change. Sounds like you were lucky to get things shut down before it became catastrophic though, so perhaps it will continue to do so if you stick to a routine for bearing change.
http://nationalpowersupply.com/dieselengines/detroitdiesel.html
Maybe this would be one to check out.
Scott's engine has a line bore problem it has a stamp showing it has been line bored they just didn't did not do a good job,If he and the family make it another 400 miles he has good help waiting.Detroit has no set mileage for changing the bearings I have seen the 8v92 with 250,000 miles with no wear on the bearings, most people do not change the bearing till they see a drop in oil pressure. I like to change the bearings around 100 to 150k just for piece of mind because the 8v71 and the 8v92 share the same bearing with the 8v92 having a lager piston bore,They are tough engines if you keep it cool, HP they will handle I maintain 2 -750 hp 8v92TT engines that have 15,000+ hrs and still going strong.
Hi guys,
Ok I really need to be pushed here. I've spoken to this guy on the phone and they have 100% eBay ratings and an almost 5 star google rating for their local shop in Michigan. He offered to sell this engine to me for $7000 even. He said it came out of a military vehicle which literally had only 13,000 miles on it. Shipping is $900 and he will pay for the core to ship. Should I jump on this? I can take anything off my core that I need. It's a DDEC IV which I believe I can make work with my coach even though it's DDEC II right? Help me please:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F383321826138
Description.
Scott don't jump yet that is a 1995 year model the, DDEC IV is a better version and will work fine,the problem is the whole gear train on the rear,the back plate.gears and the bell housing would need to be changed plus the front motor mounts, the price is not to bad but I would offer him 6k and keep your core there are ton of the military DDEC lV out there just remember they are military spec,that engine does have a bypass blower you don't see that often on military engines.One major item I did not mention those engines do not have the special cam to drive the 50d alternator on your bus the head needs to come off to change the cam fwiw,IMO it is to much money for the work involved
Since the true condition is not verified and seven thousand bucks plus related costs is a lot of money to gamble. Ask to get it hooked up, run it on dyno, capture all important readings. Going to cost some money but worth it for such a significant project. Another option is to get a written warranty long enough for your comfort.
True story. The PO of my bus had engine issues for some time, doing what was necessary to keep it going. His mechanic was pretty clear the proper solution was a total rebuild. After several breakdowns and wallets full of dollars, he finally decided to get the rebuild.
Please do the analysis such that you are confident you aren't trading one problem for another one, even though it may be down the road a bit. Weigh the cost differential against the inconvenience, delays, and deferred costs associated with a used motor.
Personally, I'd never touch a used one unless it was warranted or fully bench tested. Good luck.
Quote from: windtrader on January 24, 2020, 10:48:36 AM
Since the true condition is not verified and seven thousand bucks plus related costs is a lot of money to gamble. Ask to get it hooked up, run it on dyno, capture all important readings. Going to cost some money but worth it for such a significant project. Another option is to get a written warranty long enough for your comfort.
True story. The PO of my bus had engine issues for some time, doing what was necessary to keep it going. His mechanic was pretty clear the proper solution was a total rebuild. After several breakdowns and wallets full of dollars, he finally decided to get the rebuild.
Please do the analysis such that you are confident you aren't trading one problem for another one, even though it may be down the road a bit. Weigh the cost differential against the inconvenience, delays, and deferred costs associated with a used motor.
Personally, I'd never touch a used one unless it was warranted or fully bench tested. Good luck.
He needs to buy one from a bus a MCI or Prevost changing all the parts over to a bus application is not for the faint of heart on those engines and 98 % of the time military engines are good since they don't use one but 2000 hrs then replace it,Don sellers are not going to spend $1500.00 to have a used engine dyno tested it just doesn't happen if they don't have a in house dyno
I want to eliminate the cam driven alternator and go to a belt driven one to save me from a future grenade. But if you guys still think it's too much labor, I'll keep looking. The problem with the rebuild guys is it's a ton of money to have it done. My budget can barely suck up the engine transplant. So I have to be super smart and methodical about my next move.
If you are going to convert to a belt drive ok all you need to contend with is the air compressor the power steering pump drive is place but I don't know if the compressor will clear with a 0 tilt compressor on a MCI
Ok so compressor needs to be tilted? But on the military spec units it's not? So I have to change everything out anyway to get my hosing and gearset in there?
Scott it will take some work try and cut you deal with the guy I think he will deal because there is lot of those engines out there for sale,mine are machinal and I paid $2500.00 for a pair with Allison 740's
If it cost $4000 to clean up and put bearings in, it will surely cost a lot more to switch everything over on the military engine. I would not spend any more until you do an oil analysis to see how your engine is doing, and watch the oil pressure closely. You might get years of use out of what you have. What did the garage that did your bearings recommend? They are the ones who had a good look inside.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on January 24, 2020, 07:18:55 PM
If it cost $4000 to clean up and put bearings in, it will surely cost a lot more to switch everything over on the military engine. I would not spend any more until you do an oil analysis to see how your engine is doing, and watch the oil pressure closely. You might get years of use out of what you have. What did the garage that did your bearings recommend? They are the ones who had a good look inside.
Walter when a 8v92 beats the bearing out of the main caps like Scott's you can put a fork in it the poor things life is about over.I have one sitting in the yard the owner over dose the propane on it and beat the bottom end out of it.The 4 grand I thought was a little high but Scott was ok with it and was cheaper than a tow to FL plus his family had their home so I told him to go for it
give them a call they did a great job on my out of frame rebuild . no web site
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Leid-Diesel-Service/135466509835330
dave
Brian Evans did a military engine swap, an 8V71, for his MC5.
Perhaps a phone call with him would help the decision?
He will be bored in the snow in nova scotia...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: luvrbus on January 25, 2020, 05:54:00 AM
Walter when a 8v92 beats the bearing out of the main caps like Scott's you can put a fork in it the poor things life is about over.I have one sitting in the yard the owner over dose the propane on it and beat the bottom end out of it.The 4 grand I thought was a little high but Scott was ok with it and was cheaper than a tow to FL plus his family had their home so I told him to go for it
I have never beat the bearings out of anything, so I will have to agree with your greater experience. I do have to wonder what would have happened if that engine was not boosted to 500+ hp, and it had been checked with oil analysis occasionally. It looks like the PO put part of an in-frame kit into a very tired engine in order to sell it. Scott's experience should be a tale of caution for others.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on January 25, 2020, 08:57:37 AM
I have never beat the bearings out of anything, so I will have to agree with your greater experience. I do have to wonder what would have happened if that engine was not boosted to 500+ hp, and it had been checked with oil analysis occasionally. It looks like the PO put part of an in-frame kit into a very tired engine in order to sell it. Scott's experience should be a tale of caution for others.
I have 3 crates of new parts for that engine Scott gave me that never was installed including new rods and cam shaft>Scott is a smart young man him and Jack Conrad will get it done if he makes it to Jacks and I believe he will,I am guessing one of the crank shaft main bearing webs on the block broke like on Dale Houston's 8v92 DDEC,Dale's engine was a American Fleet recon engine that lasted 130,000 miles
Scott, don't know where you will be in Florida but a friend has a D D E C 8v92 with about 30k miles on it out of a fire truck, there is a crack in turbo housing, he's on the north side of Ocala, let me know if your interested and I'll hook you up with him, Niles
Quote from: luvrbus on January 25, 2020, 09:47:46 AM
I have 3 crates of new parts for that engine Scott gave me that never was installed including new rods and cam shaft>Scott is a smart young man him and Jack Conrad will get it done if he makes it to Jacks and I believe he will,I am guessing one of the crank shaft main bearing webs on the block broke like on Dale Houston's 8v92 DDEC,Dale's engine was a American Fleet recon engine that lasted 130,000 miles
I had a bit of a far off dream to modify an 8v92 and have some strategies for cooling before putting one into my MC5 (I have some potential 'racing solution' to apply to the radiators etc). I was going to also tackle the 92 series diabolically slow combustion which would also have a knock on impact on how much heat it rejects to coolant. But right now my 8v71 is fine and I was continuing to research into this and was even going to buy an old knackered engine which I would rebuild myself over the years. Based on Scotts experience and what you say - are the silver series 8v92s inherently weak?
I'd like to know. I was planning a twin turbo set up.
Im used to CAT C15s , DT466s and Maxxforce 13s. MAN 12.4 litres, in which you can ramp up the power and the longevity on something with a relatively light bus duty cycle and the durability barely goes down. I had assumed this was also the case on the 8v92s. Was that a bad assumption?
Quote from: Dreadnought on January 25, 2020, 04:51:15 PM
I had a bit of a far off dream to modify an 8v92 and have some strategies for cooling before putting one into my MC5 (I have some potential 'racing solution' to apply to the radiators etc). I was going to also tackle the 92 series diabolically slow combustion which would also have a knock on impact on how much heat it rejects to coolant. But right now my 8v71 is fine and I was continuing to research into this and was even going to buy an old knackered engine which I would rebuild myself over the years. Based on Scotts experience and what you say - are the silver series 8v92s inherently weak?
I'd like to know. I was planning a twin turbo set up.
Im used to CAT C15s , DT466s and Maxxforce 13s. MAN 12.4 litres, in which you can ramp up the power and the longevity on something with a relatively light bus duty cycle and the durability barely goes down. I had assumed this was also the case on the 8v92s. Was that a bad assumption?
The problem is that over the years about all the 8v92 engines have been 1/2 @$# rebuilt several times,I get 8v92's in the shop where the last guy left off the crank web supports because they were in his way or he forgot the supports,shop leave off the head supports all the time
Ok, had some concerts today back in the saddle. Read through all your posts:
1. Don, a lot of fire truck apparatuses get 500hp 8v92's and don't have issues with them...same for boat/marine use. If you keep it cool, it will last. Maybe not as long as a 400hp unit but I'm not looking to get a million miles. But I do think your right, it's important to know the history of your engine and I don't know mine.
2. I really do want to talk to Brian if someone has a phone number for him. He did chronicle his military install and I'd love to chat.
3. The fire engine 8v92 sounds great but wouldn't I be in the same boat of it not being set up for a bus? Can someone correct me? I'll be in Ocala tomorrow and would love to look at this engine on Monday if you guys think I could make a fire engine motor work.
4. American Fleet quoted me $18,500 for a rebuilt unit plus shipping and core charge.
5. Leid diesel, so I actually
Have a buddy that lives in Wisconsin that knows the leid family well. They are Mennonite from what I understand and know their two strokes better than anyone. I'll call them on Monday.
Quote from: luvrbus on January 25, 2020, 05:13:48 PM
The problem is that over the years about all the 8v92 engines have been 1/2 @$# rebuilt several times,I get 8v92's in the shop where the last guy left off the crank web supports because they were in his way or he forgot the supports,shop leave off the head supports all the time
Ok, then I'll continue on my dream. I have a good ten years to re -engineer and build this thing methodically and an almost limitless budget (within reason). Would love to talk to you on the phone and pick your brain some day Cliff.
In the meantime my 8v71 seems to be in good shape.
Scott the fire truck engine is the better choice it will have all the accessory drives plus it will have the double cooler for the automatic and a drive for the belt driven alternator a +pretty straight forward replacement just a few minor changes try for a DDEC lll or iV they are better engines,people dread the DDEC engines but they are easier to work on you don't have the rack,linkage and governor to contend with lol just ground wires
good luck
Thumbs up for Leid diesel. They're located in Newville, Pa. Close to Carlisle. Very reasonable labor rates also. They are the ones that rebuilt and turboed our 4104. Great people.
The 8V82 that I took out of my bus is at Ray Cox place in Atlanta Ga. The engine had 135000 total miles and ran great. When I did an oil sample and found water in the oil it gave me a reason to change to the series 50. The engine didn't use any oil and the leek was very small, more than likely an injector tube.
I don't know what Ray would want for the engine but it would be a drop in because it came out of a 102C3. It is a DD2 engine.
Jack
Thought came to mind that there are still many early Wanderinglodges and Prevost conversions that have the 8V92 rated at 450 and 475.. Being in a motorhome they never see the mileage or hard use that a bus would receive .. Many are are sitting on old tires and can be had for small money..>>>Dan
Thanks guys. For some reason I thought leid was in Wisconsin but I believe you.
1. Thanks cliff, I'm looking at a fire truck motor hopefully tomorrow if I can get Dale to call me back. We made it to Ocala.
2. Jack, do you have a phone number for Ray? I can replace the injector tube if that's all that's wrong with the motor. Can you reliably confirm the actual mileage on that engine?
3. I'm definitely interested in a low mileage unit but the drama of removing it from a chassis and then trying to tow the chassis to a scrap yard is more drama than I think I'm down for.
Be careful of firetruck engines they can have low miles and hundreds of hours idling or pumping.
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 26, 2020, 06:03:40 PM
Be careful of firetruck engines they can have low miles and hundreds of hours idling or pumping.
He can plug in and check the hours vs the miles lol DDEC's don't lie to you ( not yet)
Yep. I'm taking my laptop and Nexiq with me. Lol. It will tell me da truth for sure.
I am sure that is all the miles on the engine, not sure Ray still has it or not. You would have to do a pressure test on the engine to be sure where the water came from. Ray number home 7709279894 cell 4043927059
Jack
Jack,
1. Ray completely dismantled that engine and it's currently in pieces so that's a no go.
2. leid diesel can get me a reman for $15,000 plus shipping plus core but are six weeks out. I don't have six weeks unfortunately.
3. Can't get call back from Dale with the fire truck engine.
Call Joey at Lewis Bus Lines in Augusta Ga. 706-792-1800
Jack
This is a silver 8v92 ddec II that id like to buy. Was a school demonstration engine. Supposedly never had a load. Please look at these photos and tell me if you guys think I can make this work. It's my last shot. I've been trying all week to find a decent takeout. Please tell me I can make this work. He will ship it for free and I think he might take $6000 for it:
More
It looks like a truck setup, so some changeover will be needed. Would this be coming from a trade school program? It would be prudent to check out it's history to find out if it was just run on a test stand, or did they also allow students to completely disassemble and put it back together again, repeatedly. I had an instructor many years ago that gave me a brand new engine to tear apart and put back together, and I had no prior experience, and no guidance. :o
Personally, I'd go for it if the price is right. We had a DDA 8V-71 304 hp. in our school that I taught at. It was a donation from GM. Never run, kept inside, still all sealed up. They eventually moved it out and two years later, auctioned it off. Went for $800 dollars. Employees wern't allowed to bid. Oh well.😕
Does it have a cooling system and coolant in it?
Scott Have you talked to David at Davids coach 828 874 6105.
He usually has access to several from different places.
He also has the cleanest shop around Right Jack Campbell.
Was by his shop several weeks ago and he had a 6v92 on a stand
Sticker said 400 hp.
uncle ned
I'll call David. John silver hasn't returned my call yet. Maybe I can get ahold of David.
Scott David starts early in the Morning and if you get him to do any work I might know where you can put up.
Might have to leave one of the little ones for ransom LOL
uncle ned.
Lol. Ned, these two mangy critters will wear you flat out. John Silver just called back and doesn't have a single 8v92 in his yard. He went out and physically looked.
Long shot here, but Interstate Power Systems in Milwaukee (Butler) bought a few dozen used Detroit Diesel engines about a year ago. There were 8V92s in the mix. Not sure what they had planned for them, but it was my understanding that at least some where to be parts engines. I assume that some were to be rebuilt and used as replacements as needed. They do a lot of work on 2-strokes at this location, including on buses, boats, and trucks. Also in stationary equipment. Worth giving them a call to see what they say. Phil is the branch manager, and Darryl is the asst. service manager. I'd suggest starting with Phil. 262-781-7100. If they don't have them available, they might be able to point you towards one.
I'll keep making calls, but guys I've been doing this for over a week and at some point I need to pull the trigger on a motor. None of my phone calls have panned out. Literally none. The fire engine motor looks rough and I just didn't feel comfy with it. Leids is six weeks out on rebuilds, American fleet wants a ton of money,....anyone have an opinion on the one I posted photos of above?
I think I would pull the trigger,make the best deal you can and tell the guy you are going to dyno test it and ask for help with the cost,you can tell the engine has been run for a few hours,if the engine lasts on the dyno for a couple of hours you are good to go
Walter you had a bad instructor when I did a couple of classes for Davenport I loved busting those out of class that wore their ego on their shirt sleeve only took 1 time the next day after their chat with the CO they came back with a different attitude ;D
Ok thanks. I'm going to call him tomorrow and see what we can work out. How and where do I get it dyno tested?
Scott he possibly can get it done cheaper in the LA area but call around to some shops a lot of those have a dyno that will do a print out for you.Me I like to be there with a dyno test personally .Wish I wasn't so busy I would love to come help you and Jack and would enjoy the trip
I'll chat with him tomorrow but he's a pretty busy young guy and I'm not sure if he will take the time to hassle with that but I will certainly try my bestest.
Chessie,
No cooling system or coolant that I know of in it. Looks dry to me. If you look closely at the inside of the exhaust manifolds, they look clean with almost no black soot at all. I honestly think this thing was run the 11 hours that the hour meter actually shows. Maybe not...but I have no reason to believe otherwise. But maybe I'm being naive. I've been known to be naive before...
Quote from: luvrbus on January 27, 2020, 06:24:02 PM
Walter you had a bad instructor when I did a couple of classes for Davenport I loved busting those out of class that wore their ego on their shirt sleeve only took 1 time the next day after their chat with the CO they came back with a different attitude ;D
It was the sixties, and it forced me to consult the manuals and figure things out, so maybe he was being very clever and saw my potential to operate without guidance (and ease his workload). ::)
Ok, so now that I might be settling on an engine, I have a host of other questions that I would be so grateful if some of you with vaster knowledge could help me sort out:
1. Can I convert my 50dn to a pulley drive unit? Or do I need an entirely new one?
2. Can anyone recommend a specific standalone transmission cooler for my Allison 748 so that I don't have to tie into the engine cooling system. It's already overburdened with an 8v92 and I have a ton of room on the drivers side of the engine compartment. Now is the time to fab something if I can. I just need to know what you guys think will work in terms of size/rows/fins etc.
3. Whilst I have the engine and tranny out, anything else I should deal with at that time?
Haydn 2305 or 1292. Available several places, including amazon. Add an automotive electric radiator fan with a thermostat . I would add an oil temp gauge to oil pan also.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 27, 2020, 08:53:28 PM
Ok, so now that I might be settling on an engine, I have a host of other questions that I would be so grateful if some of you with vaster knowledge could help me sort out:
1. Can I convert my 50dn to a pulley drive unit? Or do I need an entirely new one?
2. Can anyone recommend a specific standalone transmission cooler for my Allison 748 so that I don't have to tie into the engine cooling system. It's already overburdened with an 8v92 and I have a ton of room on the drivers side of the engine compartment. Now is the time to fab something if I can. I just need to know what you guys think will work in terms of size/rows/fins etc.
3. Whilst I have the engine and tranny out, anything else I should deal with at that time?
Alternators are cheap about $1.00 per amp,air to oil coolers are a challenge on a MCI with the 2 tiny radiators,maybe mount it on the side with a electric fan will work for you the 700 series require a lot of flow through 1 inch hoses (18 GPM)and in your travels you need some way to control the temperature in cold weather Allison's do not like cold oil
Quote from: DoubleEagle on January 27, 2020, 08:25:16 PM
It was the sixties, and it forced me to consult the manuals and figure things out, so maybe he was being very clever and saw my potential to operate without guidance (and ease his workload). ::)
Walter you were in the civilian world this was military by the book.one of my best students was female and she was a remarkable young lady with a great attitude to get it done right the first time
Dont turn the fan on too early. Very cold, you could block some of the radiator area or add temp controlled shutters. If you intend to keep using the coolant/oil cooler also, dont even bother.
Jack Conrad has an aux cooler in the curb side engine access door for the transmission, pick his brain on that one.
Good idea, transmission contributes a lot of BTU to the coolant, that will free up some capacity.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Awesome. Jack and I will come up with a plan on the aux cooler.
Now to find a dyno near Arcadia? Anyone have ideas?
So I've been calling all over southern florida to find a dyno and having zero luck. The only dynos are tite dynos....
Florida Detroit Diesel should have one close they did a Allison for me years back I purchased in FL
To lessen my HT740's heatload into the coolant I installed a Thermal Dynamics DB-00341DC remote cooler between the transmission and the engine's heat exchanger. It has a 14" fan and a rudimentary shroud, and the transmission fluid now is usually a few degrees cooler than the coolant so it's slightly helping lower engine temps by a smidgen. This way the coolant will also help warm the transmission on a cold day.
If you buy one of these, eBay prices are much lower than what I paid to a vendor in FL; it was still drop-shipped directly from the factory in CA.
John
Thats my point. Cooling and then reheating trans fluid loses most of the benefit of aux cooler. Running a trans on the cool side wont cause problems, unless you run straight motor oil. The fluid will still get warm/hot without fan running. Converters make tons of heat.
Allison don't generate a lot of heat only when in they are in the converter mode,they are happy at 180 to 195 degrees you need to keep it warm no matter what fluid is used,The military 8v92 engines never used the double water cooler on the engine only air to oil for the transmission, those 740's are nasty when you tear into one too from being cold and they used Dexron ATF .
I guess the only way to settle it is to use an air radiator only and check temperatures. Id like to see any mess created by tran dexron from running cool. Never seen it in car and truck transmissions
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 29, 2020, 06:19:00 AM
I guess the only way to settle it is to use an air radiator only and check temperatures. Id like to see any mess created by tran dexron from running cool. Never seen it in car and truck transmissions
No oil cleans cold.you never took a engine apart that was ran cold for years ?,if Allison wanted the transmission to run cold they would not have published a operating range ,they shift terrible when cold, condensation is your worst nightmare on the 740's with cold Dexron always has been ,Synthetics do a better job running cold I was told but I don't waste the money for the synthetics on the older Allisons
I just want my coach to run cooler especially with a 500hp tune. I know for a fact the Allison dumps a ton of heat into the coolant because when I was running my retarder the coolant would get really hot. Temps pushing 200° or more.
So another question, how hard is it to add jakes to my new engine? Anyone have a set and the new covers?
Retarder run in a separate cavity with oil on a vane on a Allison they do heat the fluid up but we are talking about operating temps .Jakes are easy to install I may have a set I can send you but I know I don't have the module for a DDEC ll you would have to wire it direct from a switch which means you control it not the engine so it not automatic
That engine has the tall valve covers for Jakes
An engine running cold is a big difference. Do a temp check on the road on a trans with just an air cooler. Since he runs a retarder, I doubt it will run cold, unless fan is on all the time. Electronic trans, then another story. Or he can reduce horsepower to 400, lose a little speed on the hills and have an engine that will last a lot longer with much less heat rejection.
Scott what is the final story on your engine.
Also running a allison cool and straight oil has me worried.
Huggy has ran for over 20 years with only a hayden cooler and on straight motor oil.
hope it will not give up the ghost.
uncle ned
I'm running transynd gold in the Allison. I'll make it work. I don't spend much time in the cold anymore.
Engine is coming out and new one going in.
Photos of my new one :
Looks pretty shiny. Might want to spill a little waste oil on it to baptize it before you stick it back in. If you're doing that in Jack's shop it will be pristine. Take lots of pix.
Can't wait to get this swap done. Engine should arrive next week. It's wrapped and on the shipping dock.
I know a guy who owns the AAMCO trans shop in Clearwater and he's going to find me a Hayden trans cooler for cost. That's going to save me some $$
Three questions:
1. Should I send my vickers power steering pump somewhere to be rebuilt or order the kit and do it myself?
2. Best belt driven 50dn alternator source? And which pulley do I need to make this work?
3. Anyone know a source and size to reduce my squirrel cage fan pulley to spin them a hair faster? My gearbox is in good shap so not worried about spinning it a little faster.
Quote from: luvrbus on January 29, 2020, 02:33:58 PM
Jakes are easy to install I may have a set I can send you but I know I don't have the module for a DDEC ll you would have to wire it direct from a switch which means you control it not the engine so it not automatic
I have Jakes and DDEC II, but no Jake module! Instead there's just a simple $10 Bosch or Hella 5-pin cube relay, and it works fine. The DDEC decides when the Jakes can potentially be used, irrespective whether you choose to actually use them or not, by grounding one wire (I don't have my manual in front of me now to tell you which wire) of the Vehicle Interface Harness, and this grounded Jake wire then activates the relay that can send power to the Jake solenoids if you have the Jakes turned on. Sorry if that's a confusing description, but it's pretty simple really! I was skeptical when I first saw this relay under my dash, but it makes sense to me now - cube relays can convert a NO condition into a NC condition, or vice versa.
One more thing I almost forgot, but is really important. The relay
must have a diode on it to prevent spikes of power back-feeding into the DDEC when it operates. Without this diode you'll probably damage the DDEC, or worse. Again, I can't remember right now which pins this diode is on, but I can check it this weekend if you need to know.
John
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 30, 2020, 07:51:29 PM...
1. Should I send my vickers power steering pump somewhere to be rebuilt or order the kit and do it myself?...
I just got a rebuilt one from Luke and sent my old one back for the core charge. If I remember, it wasn't worth it to rebuild.
Quote from: Iceni John on January 30, 2020, 08:41:15 PM
I have Jakes and DDEC II, but no Jake module! Instead there's just a simple $10 Bosch or Hella 5-pin cube relay, and it works fine. The DDEC decides when the Jakes can potentially be used, irrespective whether you choose to actually use them or not, by grounding one wire (I don't have my manual in front of me now to tell you which wire) of the Vehicle Interface Harness, and this grounded Jake wire then activates the relay that can send power to the Jake solenoids if you have the Jakes turned on. Sorry if that's a confusing description, but it's pretty simple really! I was skeptical when I first saw this relay under my dash, but it makes sense to me now - cube relays can convert a NO condition into a NC condition, or vice versa.
One more thing I almost forgot, but is really important. The relay must have a diode on it to prevent spikes of power back-feeding into the DDEC when it operates. Without this diode you'll probably damage the DDEC, or worse. Again, I can't remember right now which pins this diode is on, but I can check it this weekend if you need to know.
John
I was told you can buy the module a after market made for Prevost for under 50 bucks now,He has to be careful with a relay hookup he has a 24v volt system and the Jakes and ECM are 12v on his engine.I was going to send him a 24v system with a pressure switch to work off the transmission it would be automatic and works ok plus it takes the hard to find DDEC ll ECM out of the loop
Thanks Richard for the note about the power steering pump. I'll call Luke this morning.
John, sounds pretty effective. If I can have a manual control for the jakes I'm going to just go for that and as cliff said, just keep the DDEC out of the loop. I have enough DDEC related weird issues that I'm fine not adding to them. Cliff, please do send the jakes set because I'm absolutely wanting jakes at this point. We go west a couple times a year and I run some serious hills when we do it and at 47,000 lbs gross with my toad, I'm ready for Jakes.
I'll send you an address over Facebook message. (Unless you remember jacks address by heart)
Bob, I'll take a ton of photos and video of the process lol. Hoping not to spill anything on jacks shop floor!
On the fan pully.
The way Fred Hobe talked, i got the impression that these pullies were an off the shelf type thing, just swap for a smaller one.
Need a good industrial supply house.
Pull yours off and take it in with you.
How are the cones inside the fan intakes?
Fred also emphasized they had to be good.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Make sure you get the big Haydn oil cooler designed to be used standalone. The models are listed in a pdf. of available models for various Allison transmissions. I think it also has 1" fittings. BTW, do you have a misting system. Extra insurance for hot times and climbing long grades.
Bus warrior, the cones are good. The entire fan box was rebuilt when I bought the bus thankfully.
Chessie, I do have a misting system and it's very effective. I just like to save it for the worst grades and hot days because man I can go through water fast.
If you are still in need of v92 Jake parts I can help. Send a msg. here or FB. I am 4 hours south of Nashville.
PS I sent a FB PM too.
I hope you are busy putting in the new engine and all is going well?
Did the engine arrive this week?
Davy
Engine still in route. Hopefully arriving Tuesday or Wednesday. Moving the bus to Jacks shop likely Tuesday. Getting closer, but in a holding pattern until engine arrives.
Thank you for the update, Scott. I was driving across I-10 overnight Friday into Saturday where you first noticed the problem and wondered about you. Please know my little family is praying you are helped through this and guided the best direction. We understand a portion of the fear and uncertainty. We hate it for you and your family.
Davy