Which is the correct terminology?
Silverside
or
Silversides
Or are both acceptable depending on the content? If so, plz give me an example.
Silversides. Although you can usually see only one side at a time.😏
I'm sure it has TWO sides.>>>Dan
I believe the term silversides or silverside was a term that was added by the public to the bus,I owned 2 of those but I had another name for it
Come on luvrbus, enquiring minds want to know. What was the other name and did it apply to both sides? Jack
Interesting, since ACF Brill IC-41's of that period had stainless steel siding.
So did MCI 2,3 & 4 Couriers but much smaller panels full length.
Last weekend I was admiring my friend's Crown Silversides, a 40-foot 3-axle high-level touring bus with an 8V71 and with fluted anodized aluminum sides, one of the legendary Atomics that were built for the AEC in Idaho. So, silversided buses weren't that rare!
John
Brills, at least, used stainless steel till they offered a diesel, then went to aluminum.
MCIs up to the MC9 had stainless steel sides. And some early 102s.
So did Prevost in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s.
And many other manufacturers.
Passenger train cars also were silver sides. It just was the style then.
JC
There was only one Silversides. GM pre-war & post war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_PD-4103
I cannot imagine people in the 40's riding the old Silversides buses across the US with roads we had then and the poor driver that had to drive one with air conditioning that seldom work.
Mine rode like a log on wheels and the 4 speed on the column was a nightmare to shift it was so wore out.The 2 I had belonged to a contract carrier for Santa Fe railroad hauling people to Phoenix and Needles CA from Parker AZ mostly railroad employees.
Not far from me is a section of old 66 that is by passed now where they would need to turn the bus around and back up the grade to prevent the bus from hanging up on the grade I bet that was fun
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 30, 2019, 05:19:07 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_PD-4103
I don't think the PD-4103 came with Silver Eagle emblems (on both sides).
Quote from: DoubleEagle on November 30, 2019, 08:03:45 AM
I don't think the PD-4103 came with Silver Eagle emblems (on both sides).
The Eagles were a Trailways thing for identifying the class of service offered back then I was told,and carried over when Trailways starting manufacturing their own buses hence came the name Eagle as we know today
Quote from: luvrbus on November 30, 2019, 08:47:39 AM
The Eagles were a Trailways thing for identifying the class of service offered back then I was told,and carried over when Trailways starting manufacturing their own buses hence came the name Eagle as we know today
That might not be correct. The 4103 was produced in 1951 & 1952. The first prototypes of the Golden & Silver Eagles weren't started until 1955 & 1956. I think liberties were taken by some 4103 operators to jazz up their buses with Eagle parts later on.
Trailways started bus service in 1928 and through the years they had 3 service class , the standard,the silver and the golden .I have a old photo of a Trailways Beck that has the Eagle on the side taken in the 40's I 'll see if I can scan it for you later
That would explain the origin of the idea for the Eagle design, but the emblem on that 4103 looked identical to the Silver Eagle circle that was on the Model 01's. The original emblems for those old Trailways buses would be very interesting to see. Yet another interesting bit of history for the Eagle.
Cliff, I have not found any reference to silver or golden service with older Trailways operators, but I did find this 1946 photo of an American Bus Lines ACF Brill with a emblem on the side that really looks like the precursor to the Silver Eagle metal emblem. I can't tell if it is metal or painted on, but in the circle it says "American Bus Lines". It may very well be the inspiration for the Eagle emblem. It still looks like the emblem on the 4103 is an actual one from an Eagle added by the restorer. :)
Old Norris at the Eagle factory is the one that gave me the history lesson and he was up on the history,all I know for sure is only the Trailways buses had the Eagle on the sides when it left the factory you couldn't even buy those from Eagle back then
Was Norris both at the Eagle plant and at Jefferson? Is he still with us? He would be a person who could reveal a lot of things. I really regret not asking him more questions when I had the chance. :(
Quote from: DoubleEagle on December 01, 2019, 08:51:11 AM
Was Norris both at the Eagle plant and at Jefferson? Is he still with us? He would be a person who could reveal a lot of things. I really regret not asking him more questions when I had the chance. :(
Same ole Norris,I haven't spoken with him for 3 years but the last time I did he was still puffing on 2 packs a day and drinking beer enjoying his retirement,a lot of the old Eagle employees are on FB like Tony and Daniel but no Norris
I believe the Henry J on the Wiki-page belongs to a collector in the Netherlands. "International Bus Collectors club" was Bob Redden's former deal I think. Yes, the Eagle has been added at some point.
The Eagle with wings were a American Bus Line trademark all their buses used it,when American joined the Trailways group they adopted the trade mark,in Bus World there is a photo of a 4103 restored by American that has those.Daniel a long time employee of Eagle gave us a history lesson on F/B about the American Bus Line Eagles on the side,in this case the Eagle came before the bus
Weren't Eagle buses first built in Belgium and imported to the US and Canada? Did the Eagle name come with them? Or was it assigned once they started being built in the US? This whole Eagle brand name is now confusing me. I am just a lowly MCI guy...
JC
Probably adopted the name to encourage sales here. I remember the first ones. They were odd looking.
The Eagles were designed by the US carriers in the Trailways network ,GM would not sell Trailways a 40 ft bus and Greyhound owned MCI so they went after GM using a manufacture in Germany to manufacture the Eagle,they were made by 4 different manufactures at different locations in Europe Bus and Car of Belgium was the 2nd manufacture,Setra of Germany was the 1st manufacture the design was owned by Trailways before moving to the US,Not a clear photo but here is the Eagle on Continental Trailways Flx in service
http://eaglesinternational.net/eagle-history
https://phoenixcoachglobal.com/history-eagle-coach/
I think GM may have offered Trailways a coach. It , most likely have been the 40 foot model that was gold anodized. PD4901 Golden Chariot. It also looked plainer than a Scenicruiser by comparison. By then the Scenicruiser issues were known, especially the dual engine setup. It appears Trailways passed on it.
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/bus-stop-classic/bus-stop-classic-1954-gm-4901-the-golden-chariot/
According to Eagle history, the Eagle name and emblem came from acquisition by Trailways of American Bus Lines, that was using it on their coaches.
Attached are pictures from 1946 showing an American Bus Lines ACF Brill with their Eagle logo, and a timetable that shows the emblem more clearly. It is not the same as used on the Eagle's later, but it is definitely the basis for the design. It was used on whatever brand American had, including the PD 4103. I think it would be safe to say that the GM PD 4103 shown on Wikipedia has a Silver Eagle emblem from an Eagle instead of the original one from American Bus Lines (if that was an American Bus Lines vehicle originally).
Here is the Eagle emblem on a 1952 GM 4103 American Bus Lines. It appears to match the one on the ACF Brill.
https://www.bluehoundsandredhounds.info/barscen.html#silversides (https://www.bluehoundsandredhounds.info/barscen.html#silversides)
Good article. Thanks
One problem with the article is that it does not mention the "deck and a half" models from C. D. Beck & Co. of Sydney, Ohio, which looked quite a bit like the Scenicruiser. Flxible in Loudonville, Ohio, had the Vistaliner. Who copied who? Since GM dominated the bus market at the time, they might have dominated the writing of the history as well.
Folks seem to ask about competing Scenicruiser designs. VL-100, Beck, etc. These are not mentioned (in my opinion and writings) because they simply do not matter in regards to 4501 history. They were footnotes to the 4501 history. I guarantee both of these came after the 4501. Facts are facts. I personally like the VL-100s and think they were fine coaches. I wish they had made more than just 100. As for the Beck, it's ok, but whenever I see one, I always think about the Ford Tri-motor airplane. The siding has that look to me.
Quote from: pd4501-771 on December 04, 2019, 09:22:55 AM
Folks seem to ask about competing Scenicruiser designs. VL-100, Beck, etc. These are not mentioned (in my opinion and writings) because they simply do not matter in regards to 4501 history. They were footnotes to the 4501 history. I guarantee both of these came after the 4501. Facts are facts. I personally like the VL-100s and think they were fine coaches. I wish they had made more than just 100. As for the Beck, it's ok, but whenever I see one, I always think about the Ford Tri-motor airplane. The siding has that look to me.
The Beck models that looked very much like the Scenicruiser came out in 1954, the same year as the 4501. Their 1040 model had a large Cummins NHRBS 600 supercharged diesel, which might have had fewer problems than two 4-71's. How did Beck copy GM so quickly if GM was first out? Did Beck have a spy at GM? Coincidence? Good knockoff, at least.
The chicken or egg, both are lacking curb appeal even being a icon of the era ::)
http://theoldmotor.com/?p=142146
Beck and ACF Brill had deck and a half models in 1950. Probably from requests from Trailways for a comparable model of the GM concept.
Clifford you kill me.
Walter, I appreciate your "underdog theory", but I don't think it really works. http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/b/beck/beck.htm (http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/b/beck/beck.htm) Read this article outlining Beck's history and honestly tell me they seemed like an outfit that could supply the world's biggest and best intercity bus lines (at the time) -Greyhound with the quality and quantity of coaches needed? The truth is the deck and half designs go back into the 1920s from a multiple makers. None were really new, but Greyhound, GM, and Loewy & assoc. were masters at marketing and building quantity and quality. Beck's total post war output was just over half of the total 4501s made. GM and Greyhound had a long and sometimes volatile marriage, but Greyhound had all their eggs firmly in the Scenicruiser basket as early as 1946. Even with the issues apparent with the new Scenicruiser, it soon became the face of bus travel for Greyhound. It was THE bus by most people's account (unless you are like Clifford. LOL)
LOL sorry Tom I just never liked the looks ,spoke with many Greyhound drivers and maintaince people over the years that had a dislike for those too. 8) I do like the baggage doors though
Tom, I realize you are as deep into Scenicruisers as I am into Eagles, but you must admit there were more than a few problems with them from day one. They had to take them to the Greyhound garage straight from the factory to fix all the sloppy work the GM plant did, right? The double 4-71 setup had a few problems, right? The frame cracked on many of them from the stresses that they could not handle, and they had to be patched, right? Clifford does not particularly like the styling, right? Converters have a lot to contend with dealing with the sunken aisle up top, right? Greyhound's relations with GM soured a bit because of the Scenicruiser's problems, and they started up with MCI (which was also a small outfit like Beck), right?
That being said, the Scenicruiser was magical to me when I rode it in the late fifties, early sixties. I would stand in line long before other people would line up so I could have my choice of seat. The seat of choice was the aisle seat on the first row passenger side of the upper deck. There I could see through the skylight window in front of me, but more importantly, I could see the driver shifting down below. I noticed that a lot of them would wear black leather driving gloves, which I did not usually see in a 4104. It was an art form to shift without grinding, and you could tell the pros from the newer hands. I loved being in that bus, but then in 1965, when I was making my first trip from the Army Induction Center in Albany, NY, the government put me in a Model 01 Eagle to start my trip to Fort Dix. Well, I noticed that the Eagle did not lean on the thruway ramps anywhere near as much as the Scenicruiser did (I thought they were close to tipping over, as a uniformed young person). The rest is history. Yes, some Eagles rust a bit, but GM's corrode.
Give Beck a break, they only made a few of their "deck and a half's", in their relatively small plant. When Mack bought them out in 1956, it was to get their fire engine business, and the buses got dumped in 1958. Their fortunes could have gone other ways, given some luck. Their "Scenicruisers" are even rarer than the GM's. I wonder if there are any surviving Becks that are roadworthy. Seems like I have seen some pictures of current Beck's on one of the forums. Anyway, if one shows for a ralley at Evansville or Blythesville, let it run with your Scenicruisers (there was a nice 1956 Beck at Hibbing). That will really confuse people. :o
Walter, Thanks for the cruiser memories. I always enjoy hearing that stuff. I think the Beck story is neat, but I can't concede that GM, Greyhound and Raymond Loewy borrowed their Scenicruiser styling ques from Beck.
I have become an Eagle fan, especially the model 01. I told myself 25 years ago when I bought our first Scenic that I would only focus on buying Greyhound memorabilia. When I bought our Tamiami Trailways PD4104 in 2008 that all went out the window. Now I buy just as much Trailways & Eagle stuff. There was a fully seated all original model 01 at Jefferson bus repair in OKC (maybe you saw it?). It sat there for years and was all-but abandoned. I kept my eye on it, thinking about the possibilities. Luckily the owners finally had it moved (NJ I think), as I do not need any more buses. But man that thing was really cool. A seated 01 must be pretty rare.
I have had several Eagles attend my Blytheville rally (2013 & 2019). You guys are always welcome. The more...the merrier! Take care
Quote from: pd4501-771 on December 04, 2019, 06:27:57 PM
Walter, Thanks for the cruiser memories. I always enjoy hearing that stuff. I think the Beck story is neat, but I can't concede that GM, Greyhound and Raymond Loewy borrowed their Scenicruiser styling ques from Beck.
I have become an Eagle fan, especially the model 01. I told myself 25 years ago when I bought our first Scenic that I would only focus on buying Greyhound memorabilia. When I bought our Tamiami Trailways PD4104 in 2008 that all went out the window. Now I buy just as much Trailways & Eagle stuff. There was a fully seated all original model 01 at Jefferson bus repair in OKC (maybe you saw it?). It sat there for years and was all-but abandoned. I kept my eye on it, thinking about the possibilities. Luckily the owners finally had it moved (NJ I think), as I do not need any more buses. But man that thing was really cool. A seated 01 must be pretty rare.
I have had several Eagles attend my Blytheville rally (2013 & 2019). You guys are always welcome. The more...the merrier! Take care
Your welcome! By the way, I have found the prototype for the Beck "Cruiser", they must have seen the GX-2 built in 1949, by GM. So, there was no coincidence, the Lowey design sparked everybody into action. All hail the PD4501!