Smelled a burning stench a few miles before exiting the freeway, which seemed to clear after a couple of minutes.
Exited and realized that I had no power steering. Pulled over. Engine bay is bone dry. Front axle area is bone dry.
Tried to refill the reservoir, then saw smoke billowing from the inside of the bus.
Shut down all electric and investigated. Saw oil mixed with the condensate dripping from the hvac compartment.
Looks like I blew a ps line over the hvac blowers. Dripping oil on hot motors makes a sooty stinky mess.
Strong armed to the Interstate Power Systems in Davenport. They're going to open the hvac panel and see what they can find.
Any thoughts on what might have blown in there?
They are probably going to find a PS hose that rubbed through something sharp.
and are going to make you pay...
Are you going to sit there helpless until Monday?
find the rub through, cut it in half, jam a suitable sized pipe in the two ends, hose clamp, fill the steering, chase out the air and carry on?
is the power steering stock or a retrofit on that coach?
might be a metal line if stock... how are your brazing skills?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Should be braided or steel high pressure line. If it is not the return line, you aren't going to splice with a piece of pipe and clamps. Too much pressure.Something rubbed through line or layed against something sharp, like a screw or bolt. Probably from conversion work. I've had all my panels down and those lines are well protected and run through heavy gromnets at each bulkhead. For much lower cost till you get home, they can bypass blown line and run one in channels in floor under coach. That is where we ran ours in the 4104 when we added Shepperd power steering. Btw, we ran pipe from end to end and used a short length of high pressure hose to the ends to connect. 10 years+ and 150,000 miles, never a problem or leak. But repair it the way you and they feel best with. Good luck.
Looks like a metal line above the HVAC unit. Could be a braided line, but from the limited sight we have so far it looks to be metal.
Bus has OEM factory power steering.
Unfortunately, to open the access the air tank has to be dropped. They are working on that right now. Interstate runs a second shift.
Probably going to be Monday before it's fully repaired though. The 1st shift service manager happened to stop by and was thinking that they would need parts, and nothing is open here till Monday.
I'm still hoping they get the access opened up and find that it's just a fitting that came loose.
Oddly, my biggest concern isn't getting the leak fixed. Once they find it, I'm sure they will be able to repair it. My concern is that oil is everywhere in the HVAC unit. The whole interior reeks from oil right now. I asked them to do their best to clean up the oil, even if they have to use a few cases of electronics spray cleaner. Once they put the tank back in, I'm going to have a tough time getting things cleaned out.
I'll report back once I know more.
Ok guys... Didn't see this one coming.
The large red battery cable (2-0) that feeds the front of the bus crosses under the copper line for the power steering. The insulation had worn through, and when the conductor contacted the copper it made an arc welder. Instantly vaporized the oil in the lines and sooted up the air duct some. Oil sprayed everywhere.
The oil line has a half moon hole where the battery cable crossed it. Shouldn't be a problem sweating in a patch splice. Battery cable will have to be spliced from a couple of feet back of the damage uo to the junction block.
Damn lucky that the bus didn't go up on flames. My guess is that the first stench I smelled was the oil hitting the arc, and the smoke after we stopped was from the remnants dripping onto the melting cable.
Second time in Iowa. Second bus disaster. Last time in Iowa.
Question...
Did I damage my power steering pump when I drove it strong-arm the 10 miles to the shop? Not sure how long they last when they are run without fluid in the reservoir.
Quote from: richard5933 on July 26, 2019, 08:28:55 PM
Question...
Did I damage my power steering pump when I drove it strong-arm the 10 miles to the shop? Not sure how long they last when they are run without fluid in the reservoir.
{{
I doubt you did damage the way the Vickers vane type pump is design there is always a little fluid in the body unless you run it a long,long time
That HVAC unit is designed to be removed as a module.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 27, 2019, 06:43:47 AM
That HVAC unit is designed to be removed as a module.
Push come to shove, that's an option. But it's an option which would require evacuating the 25+ lbs of refrigerant and then recharging after. Since I don't have the equipment to do that, or to remove the HVAC unit itself in one piece, I'm going to hope I can get it cleaned in situ.
It doesn't look like it actually blew oil through the duct. What I think happened is that the vaporized oil and smoke rose up backwards through the intake, which should be much easier to deal with.
The relay board in the bay is accessible, and electronic cleaner should be able to take care of the that. I hope.
I will keep the a/c off for the drive home and won't run it until I can get in there myself to inspect and clean further.
Copper tubing for a hydraulic line? Why would they do that?
Jim
Copper plated steel? He may be seeing the copper from the melting of strands in the cable.
The bigger devil is wondering about the condition of the electric cabling...
The good bus refurbishers re-do all the heavy cables, right through to the battery box, starter, alternator, AC feeds.
And that's when the coach is only at its half life.
There's lots of us who want to think hard about a really close look at the big cables, for condition, and failed support, as the decades have shaken past.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Majority of larger outfits are setup to extract, recover and reinstall the removed refrigerant, if they have to remove the unit.
Generally speaking, the cable appears to be in good shape. It's got about 4" of damage to the insulation near the short, but after that it appears flexible and the jacket is still intact. Right now my objective is to get it home safely. The shop will remove the cable as far back as necessary, but they did open the tunnel in the next bay rearward and things look good there. I believe that they are going to do the splice in the next bay so I can get at it later on.
I consider this a manufacturing defect. That cable was not anchored properly and it was not shielded where it crossed the oil line.
If the HVAC unit has to be pulled the shop that did the compressor install can do it. Obviously that will also require draining the coolant as well, and will cost a few shekels. I'm going to get things gone and see where it stands then. Much rather have that all done back at home shop if it needs doing.
Is the line copper or steel? Don't know for sure, but it certainly looks like all the lines running through the tunnel are copper. Whatever it is, I am sure they will have a way to repair the leak. There are about half a dozen heavy truck shops on that intersection, so there must be a Parker Store (or equivalent) nearby.
Touch the pipe with a magnet.
Brief update now that the 1st shift team has looked at the situation...
Line is definitely a copper hydraulic line. They think it's got a union in the tunnel going through the bay to the rear, and if so they hope to replace from that union to the next joint forward of the HVAC compartment.
The actual repair shouldn't be a big issue, and then I hope that the power steering comes back to life after its back together. Never ran one dry like this, so to me it's still a concern till they confirm no additional problems.
Then it's on to the de-stinking...
Maybe it is a return line. I can't believe they would use straight copper for that kind of pressure and flexing every time pressure changes.
First, all the hard lines for this bus's power steering are copper. That's what GMC installed and if not for the unanchored & chaffed battery cable, they'd still be doing their job.
Drove the bus 3 hours today to get home from Davenport. Possible (probable) problem with the work they did in Davenport. They replaced a section of the 1/2" copper hydraulic line which was damaged. Rather than having two added joints by just cutting out the damaged piece, they went back a couple of feet to a flared fitting. That was a good thing. Then they brazed a coupler to the other end.
They first tried a compression fitting but it leaked. I think I know why. The piece of copper they used is type L, but the factory piece was type K. Same outside diameter, but the type K has a thicker sidewall. The thinner sidewall is probably why the compression fitting didn't work.
I saw a scrap piece of the new copper sitting next to the one they cut out, and I instantly noticed the difference. When I saw what they did my initial concern was about whether the thinner sidewall tube would hold up long term. Burst strength is apparently high enough, but the working pressure is my concern.
Called a few places to check out the details. Best I could determine was that the type K should be fine as long as it's the return line. The shop assured me that it is. I'm not so sure. The manual shows the steering gear's operating pressure of 1450-1550. The copper they used for the return line repair has a 'operating pressure' rating of 1200. Even though it's a return line, I'm not happy.
For today I will let it be, but I'm not a happy camper. This should have been done correctly. Apparently they sent a guy to Menards (like Home Depot) to buy a stick of copper, and he really didn't know the difference between all the types available. Seems that they normally outsource all their hydraulic lines and hoses and just didn't have anyone in house to do this repair properly. I wish they had said so instead of making things up.
Aside from the copper being the wrong type, the brazing joint just doesn't look right. Kind of what I'd expect from a middle school shop class student with lots of splatter and dripped brazing rod everywhere. I've got a photo of that.
Tomorrow I plan to go to the Interstate location here in Milwaukee where I will run this past the upper management and see if they will make it right. They should. There wasn't much point pushing the folks in Davenport any further, since I don't think there is anyone there high enough to make the call. Much smaller shop than the Milwaukee one. Here in Milwaukee I've met a few of the upper echelon folks, so hopefully it won't be too difficult to get it straightened out.
Now that the battery cable is repaired and properly anchored, the only real risk is loss of power steering and a royal mess if it leaks. At least we're past the fire danger.
Meanwhile, the ozone machine will arrive tomorrow and I will start the cleaning. That and a few gallons of degreaser for down below and maybe the stink will start to dissipate.
I bought an ozone generator and used it in the coach after purchase. Apparently the previous owners wife used and/ or spilled perfume in coach. Two 6 hour sessions cleaned it up. About a month ago, caught a mouse in a trap in coach and didn't notice for a couple of weeks. Wow talk about dead animal smell.. Used ozone generator and now smells nice and fresh again. It works nice in cars to remove cigarette smells or other. Bought it on Ebay.
Ozone does deodorize, but if the gas concentration is too high or lasts too long, things like synthetic carpets, carpet padding, foam cushions, rubber products, electrical wire coatings, and some fabrics, can be damaged. Any plants or animals in the bus would also be affected. If the only odor is the steering fluid smoke, maybe cleaning and airing out with fans would work.
Copper is never brazed they sliver solder a high pressure connection and you cannot butt weld 2 pieces of cooper together and make it last ,the later model buses are steel lines and real thin running @ 2200 to 2400 #'s.The smell has to be washed away a ozone generator is just good in a confined place to replace the air in the space with ozone lol been there done and still have the ozone generator and tee shirt to prove it
They did mention silver solder, but they also called it brazing. Either way, it looks sloppy to me.
For the most part, the oil has been cleaned from inside the HVAC cabinet itself. The air coming from the vents has no discernible odor. There is a little oil still dripping from under the bus, coming from the internal spaces in the aluminum body parts. The tech mentioned that some oil had gotten under the HVAC cabinet and worked its way through some of the belly parts below the bay floor.
I don't think that the odor inside the bus is coming from the little oil still dripping out. I think that the few minutes of oily smoke inside the bus is what I'm smelling now. I'll start the process of cleaning the upholstery and carpet today. Once I get things as clean as I can, I'll let the ozone machine run for a while and then air things out and see how it is.
Yep, that looks pretty nasty. Doesn't mean it won't hold, but not exactly confidence inspiring.
There's a flat filler rod that is used for fluxless brazing of copper (silver soldering if you like). I'll try to get you the name of it. It's hands down the best filler rod for copper I've ever seen and makes joining easier and more reliable than any other method including soft solder.
The commonly available copper tubing is that used for either water lines or A/C work. You may have to special order your thick wall tubing. I'd try McMasterCarr.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 03, 2019, 07:34:37 AM
Yep, that looks pretty nasty. Doesn't mean it won't hold, but not exactly confidence inspiring.
There's a flat filler rod that is used for fluxless brazing of copper (silver soldering if you like). I'll try to get you the name of it. It's hands down the best filler rod for copper I've ever seen and makes joining easier and more reliable than any other method including soft solder.
The commonly available copper tubing is that used for either water lines or A/C work. You may have to special order your thick wall tubing. I'd try McMasterCarr.
Jim
May not be as easy to find the correct tubing as it is to find residential quality stuff, but it doesn't look like they even tried very hard. I was told that they just sent someone to the local Menards (local chain similar to Home Depot) to buy the copper.
When I talked to the Milwaukee location about all this yesterday, they confirmed that they would have reached out to their hydraulic line shop (Hyquip) for help getting something in there that was at least as good as what came out. Doing an online search shows it available in many places, including Grainger.
Anxious to hear what they are going to do about this once the upper echelon finishes their deliberations.
The brazing rod is Harris P/N 21035 Phos/Copper Brazing Alloy. Acetylene/air torch (plumber's torch) works best but MAP gas should also be fine.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 03, 2019, 07:58:05 AM
The brazing rod is Harris P/N 21035 Phos/Copper Brazing Alloy. Acetylene/air torch (plumber's torch) works best but MAP gas should also be fine.
Jim
Another brand is StaySliver the one I use the more sliver in the rod the price goes up,MAP gas doesn't cut it on the Staysliver
If this failure was directly above hvac compartment, I went out and checked mine, as it has just an open space where hvac was removed during conversion. The main battery cables go through a mounting bracket with individual grommets till they go through bulkhead to next compartment.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 05, 2019, 03:28:18 PM
If this failure was directly above hvac compartment, I went out and checked mine, as it has just an open space where hvac was removed during conversion. The main battery cables go through a mounting bracket with individual grommets till they go through bulkhead to next compartment.
That's the exact place where the problem occurred. The cable in mine makes a turn after going through the mounting bracket on its way to the bulkhead. Where the cable makes that turn in my bus it crosses over the copper power steering hydraulic line. What happened was the cable sagged in the area of the turn and fell against the copper. In all other places the cable and/or the copper are wrapped in a cloth that resembles a fire hose. This crossing point in my bus had neither the cable or the copper wrapped, and this is what allowed the insulation on the cable to wear through. Surprising though, since my bus has such low miles. The cable still seems quite flexible with insulation in good condition, so I'm not sure how it managed to rub through. But it did.
Update time...
Bus is now at Interstate Power Systems - Butler (Milwaukee area) where they have an 'A' team. First order of business was to determine with certainty whether it was the high-pressure or return line which was damage & repaired. Ends up that it was the high-pressure line, not the return line.
The tech said that the repair would 'probably' hold and that no further repairs should be needed. So I asked if they were confident enough to extend the warranty on the repair to a full year, and I was told by the service dept. that something like that was up to the branch manager.
Branch manager is a great guy. He was my service advisor when we started going there with our first bus. He said that he felt uncomfortable extending a warranty on the repair knowing that it was done improperly, and he said that he'd feel much better just doing the work again the correct way with the correct materials. That was a good answer.
So, kudos to the branch manager for doing the right thing. Kudos to Interstate - Butler for standing behind the work done by the company, even though it was not done at their location.
The shop is going to consult with their hydraulic parts supplier to determine the best way to install the proper copper line in the bus - much better than just guessing like the other location did. This is a bit outside their usual work since most commercial vehicles they work on don't have copper hydraulic line. I imagine that it will be put back together in the coming few days, and with the correct materials.
While the system is opened up, I'm having them change the canister filter & clean the high-pressure line filter. They are also going to replace the two flex lines that connect the steering gear with the forward end of the copper lines. After that, I should be good to go.
Did you ever notice if the pipe and wiring tunnel is covered above the hvac area like it is in the baggage compartments?
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 28, 2019, 12:34:05 PM
Did you ever notice if the pipe and wiring tunnel is covered above the hvac area like it is in the baggage compartments?
It's not, at least not in the way it is in the other bays.
Behind the air tank is a sloped sheet metal panel. Behind that panel is the upper section of the HVAC cabinet. This upper section is the return air chamber, collecting the return air from the cabin and directing it to the air filter down below.
The pipes and wiring go through this upper section of the HVAC cabinet, and this upper section serves as the 'tunnel' of sorts for the HVAC cabinet. The downside is that the pipes are at all isolated from the air flow or the coils.
I'm talking about all the wiring and piping that comes from back and goes upfront. My hvac was removed and there is no enclosure over these items like the baggage bays. Can't tell if it was removed also, or never had the same enclosure.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 28, 2019, 02:08:11 PM
I'm talking about all the wiring and piping that comes from back and goes upfront. My hvac was removed and there is no enclosure over these items like the baggage bays. Can't tell if it was removed also, or never had the same enclosure.
If your HVAC was removed, then likely there isn't going to be any type of covering. The upper section of the HVAC cabinet itself serves as the tunnel. Without the HVAC cabinet, there is nothing left to cover things up and they'd just be exposed in the upper section of the bay. Likely you'd have to build a tunnel to close them in.
The reason that the damaged copper line in my bus is so difficult to get to is my HVAC cabinet is still intact, and to open it up the air tank has to be removed first. At least on your bus these things are more accessible.
Next time I'm at the shop checking on progress I'll try and get a few pictures to show you what mine looks like. Hopefully they will still have things opened so you can see behind the air tank.
Here's a video I took by shoving my smartphone through the return air passage above the HVAC air filter opening. I wanted to get an idea of what was going on up there with the repair.
https://youtu.be/wmycgFTJ3r4
Not the best video, but it should give you an idea of what the upper section of my HVAC cabinet looks like (and of the not-so-great repair which is being redone.)
Ok thanks. Mine is just like yours, no covering of the piping and wiring on the ceiling. I don't have a Dr. Pepper bottle though. Must have been optional equipment.👌
Couple of pics of the HVAC unit without the panels in place.
The cut copper pipe in the third photo is the one being repaired. The shop is waiting for the proper pipe to arrive, then they'll wrap things up. Both front flex lines are being changed out for safety since they are original, and the PS filter is being changed in case anything got inside the system during all this.
Btw, the plywood panel on battery side with the hinged door is completely removeable. I see that as my compartment is completely gutted. In the process of installing a separate tank for the generator.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 30, 2019, 10:58:50 AM
Btw, the plywood panel on battery side with the hinged door is completely removeable. I see that as my compartment is completely gutted. In the process of installing a separate tank for the generator.
Correct. Removing that plywood panel is how I've been gaining access to the lower section of the HVAC cabinet to clean what I can. The relays and controls inside the HVAC cabinet can also be access directly by removing the aluminum hatch on the forward wall of the next bay rearward.
For those looking but not sure what you're looking at, the yellowish things in the upper section are the air outlet ducts - they direct the flow from the fans in the HVAC cabinet to the ducts running along both sides of the bus. The entire upper chamber of the HVAC cabinet is the return air duct, pulling air from two outside vents and a few floor vents located towards the front of the bus.
Brief update on the repair progress with a few pictures. The first photo is the hole that was cut into the OEM copper when the battery cable insulation wore through. Nothing like a couple hundred amps arcing against a piece of copper carrying high-pressure oil to make a mess.
The second photo is the new repair, where the tech installed the correct gauge copper tubing.
Third photo is the repair that was done in Davenport. Quite obvious that the guy there didn't quite get the work done in a way I would consider professional - looks to me like he overheated the copper and generally made of mess of things, not to mention that he used a lighter gauge of copper than required.
All that's left is for them to double check for leaks, double check that the system is bled completely, and then road test. I'm planning to pick up the bus tomorrow.
Only concern right now is that the tech mentioned that he found some minor metal particles on the magnetic drain plug on the high-pressure line filter coming from the pump. There is a canister filter for oil going to the pump, so the metal particles likely came from the pump. I'd suspect this happened during the time the pump was run without oil when the line blew - probably about 20 minutes total including the time it took to get to the shop after the smoke cleared.
Pump still moves oil. Tech said that he can detect no unusual noise from the pump, and the steering appears to function properly. We had no steering problems on our recent trip to VA and back. While I hope that only minor damage was done, I've asked Luke to find me a replacement PS pump to carry onboard. Maybe I'm being a bit paranoid, but my hunch is that the pump will fail me at some point and probably sooner than otherwise would be the case. I'll feel better knowing that I've got a replacement onboard so the repair can be made when needed.
You could take the pump apart and inspect it for damage. Nothing special about it.
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 04, 2019, 04:53:01 PM
You could take the pump apart and inspect it for damage. Nothing special about it.
I asked Luke about getting a rebuild kit, and he said that they only sell remanufactured pumps now, no kits. Not sure if there is a lot of advantage to opening the pump to examine right now - if I have a spare I can always change it should there be need. Otherwise, I'm opening the system and having to bleed out the air potentially an extra time.
My plan is to pull the magnetic drain plug after a few more trips to see if any additional metal particles are accumulating. It was cleaned yesterday, so that should tell me if any additional damage is being done. If there are more particles, I'll obviously change out the pump. If not, I'll keep driving along and keep the spare just in case.
Bus is home and parked in its spot. What a pleasure working with a shop with qualified techs that insist on doing things the right way.
No unusual noises, steering works as it should, and not a drop of oil out of place.
Done for now but will continue to monitor and get a spare pump to keep on the parts shelf.
If you get a spare pump, you will never need it. That's the way it always works for me. I would carry spare starters, alternators, brakes and other things. As long as I have spare everything is fine. If I forget to bring it on a trip, I will need it :-\
Just my experience.
Seb
Quote from: richard5933 on September 05, 2019, 09:44:28 AM
Bus is home and parked in its spot. What a pleasure working with a shop with qualified techs that insist on doing things the right way.
No unusual noises, steering works as it should, and not a drop of oil out of place.
Done for now but will continue to monitor and get a spare pump to keep on the parts shelf.
When my nephew was dismantling a 1979 4905, he mentioned that if you bent the main
battery cable going through the wire chases, the insulation would crack, crumble, and fall off. Just a fyi. I'm going to check mine when I get the chance.
I can see that happening, especially one which has seen lots of weather extremes. So far what I've been able to check on mine has been flexible and in good shape. Of course, it's the one you can get to or don't know about that's going to fail, as evidenced by my fun in Davenport. (Got to stay out of Iowa!)
As a rule, I turn disconnect the chassis batteries as part of my setting camp procedures. I have no need for them to be connected when we're camping, and I figure that it removes quite a bit of risk to have the chassis system shut down.
Yes, I checked on the one he is scrapping and the power steering line is copper the whole way through. I`m still surprised that copper would stand the pressure without eventual fatigue, but they it works! There are two steel lines in the chase for the fuel system. The rest are copper.
Would be nice to have a chance to talk with the engineers that worked on the design of these buses. I'd love to ask why things are the way they are, why they chose this vs. that, etc.
We think of the copper as being lessor than the steel, but since they used it in many of the old buses there must have been a reason. Not sure we're going to find out what that reason is.
Copper does not "work harden" as quickly as steel to the point of failure.>>>Dan
First trip out after the repair was redone. Now that the correct oil is in PS system, the whine noise is gone.
Steering seems okay, but there is a faint metallic noise from the PS pump area which I don't remember from before all this. I'm thinking that whatever damage caused the metal particles to be found are the cause of the noise.
Luke is still searching for a replacement. Once he finds the best option, it will be replaced during our end of season maintenance appointment after Blytheville.
Anything I should be watching for other than the noise getting louder?