You guys have known me on here for over 10 years. I've made a lot of good decisions, made some bad ones, converted a couple of buses and the second one has turned out really nice. Recently I made an error in judgment and I'm looking for some specific advice from people who might know what options I have.
I purchased a 2015 Forest River Rockwood Roo off of Craigslist without a title. It was a salvage damaged unit I paid $1300 for. I repaired the damage and everything in the trailer works perfectly. Two of the three popout tent canvas were damaged in the accident so I just closed those hatches and sealed them shut with caulk. Front popout tent still works fine. Unit has a slideout dining area which we turned into a queen bed. It's a really nice camper. I have in the past been able to obtain titles using surety bonds. It has never been an issue. I'm not afraid to think out of the box and neither is my local Secretary of State so I've never been concerned about a missing title. After several weeks of drama with SOS and Lansing (sos isn't the issue, Lansing is), we've realized the trailer has a scrapped title and there is no going back. It cannot be put back on the road. Not even as a homebuild. I'd have to remove the body from the frame and only use the frame and axles to build a new unit.
I don't need wagging fingers or I told you so comments. I already feel like a dunce for wasting $1300 on the trailer, $180 on a useless surety bond and $2000 repairing the trailer and making it nice. So now, I'm just trying to make the best out of a stinky situation. I'm bummed and annoyed and just wonder if anyone out there has any creative ideas for either somehow getting this nice camper back on the road or salvaging this situation more than just selling the parts.
Here's a link with a bunch of photos of it:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xHwVRW1BkV7oVvL18
There was an article in ATHS (American Truck Historical Society) in June talking about a similar type of thing in the trucking world. Sounded like guys used to take a crate of parts to Peterbilt and have them build a new truck around an old VIN.
Could you find a similar trailer which has been wrecked but still has a clean title? (Obviously one that's fallen apart but still not been officially listed as 'scrap'.) All you'd need is enough of the wrecked trailer to be able to use its VIN on your trailer. Can get sketchy if all you're taking from the wreck is the VIN plate itself, but I'm sure that's been done before. Can you find out how much of a trailer must be reused to be able to retain the VIN?
From the article in ATHS it sounds like others have been creative with things like this in the past.
Very interesting thought Richard. I have thought of this. They don't specify a percentage of the trailer being reused but I was told verbally by sos that only the frame and axles could be used for a rebuild.
Where is the VIN plate mounted on one of those things? Seems like that's the part you'd want to keep from one with a clean title
Quote from: richard5933 on July 05, 2019, 08:23:44 AM
Where is the VIN plate mounted on one of those things? Seems like that's the part you'd want to keep from one with a clean title
Depending on year and manufacturer could be stamped into the frame rail on the tongue or directly behind the tongue, could be a sticker stuck to the body front left side, or inside the door frame.
Why not check and find out what the requirements are for a home built trailer are for your state. In Arizona you can build your own trailer. I have in the past taken a old trailer frame and built flat bed trailers. Find the old VIN number and get rid of it. I would do this by welding plate over the area to make it look like I had reinforced that area never had a problem. Why not check it out? NO I never stole a trailer I would find these out in the desert
On a 2015, the VIN is likely on a sticker due to cheap manufacturers wanting to reduce cost.
THe problem with obtaining another "Rockwood" is that it would likely cost more than Scott's original deal and with it and the previous expenses makes buying "two to get one" costly.
I suggest you "launder' your current Roo.
Remove any and all traces of its previous life as a 2015 Rockwood Too. That means stickers, names, stripes, words, warnings, stampings, instructions, tire tags, etc. Scrub it clean. Then, go out and find the cheapest, old, dilapidated, rusty, worthless flatbed trailer about 10-12 feet in length with a good title and a serial or VIN number. Once you have title and number in hand, cut up and scrap the old trailer, toss it in the recycle bin never to be seen again keeping only the title. Stamp the new VIN from your flatbed on your new trailer on the tongue. Then, take your title with its number, maybe with your new "homebuilt" trailer (sans any markings, other than maybe "Scott's bunker" stenciled across front) and go to dmv unrelated to any you have discussed this issue with. Tell them you re-built your own camping trailer on the old flatbed (if asked, other than that say as little as possible) and want to change the type on title for insurance purposes. That should get you plates and a clean title..
Remember, brush up on your states home built trailer laws, if any and say as little as possible. Don't go back over your old DMV or SOS footprints. They will raise an eyebrow.
I heard this works.... wink, wink. Just sayin......
Scott,
If you plan to sell this unit to turn a $$, you will probably need a title of some sort.
If you want to get it on the road legally with a registration, look into registering it in Maine. You can legally register it there even if you have no connection to the state. Many big trucking companies have all their trailers registered in Maine.
I have one trailer that I am making into a utility trailer that I will probably go that route.
Scott,
I have similar suggestion. Check neighboring states and see what options there may be.
Interesting thing happened to me. I once bought a motorcycle in Colorado with a salvage title. I lived in Wyoming and Wyoming didn't have salvage titles so my bike was 'laundered' and didn't carry the tainted salvage title any longer.
Seb
So,if you can start fresh with the frame and build a new unit who is to say how you build it.that is presuming you can build another camper using the frame vs building a flat deck trailer. Go to a different office and tell them you rebuilt it from scratch using the old material off the exisitng one. Go to the lumber yard and buy a bunch of 2x2's to show them a receipt. Most campers are bluilt using 2x lumber. Thats why the called them sticks and staple construction.
Interesting thing, KY doesn't require tags on trailers. Not sure this applies to camper trailers but it could be a loophole. If you bought it in KY you might not need anything except a bill of sale.
Laws vary greatly from state to state. There's bound to be a remedy that will work for you.
Jim
Hi Scott,
Your intentions did not speak to me. Are you planning on keeping and using the trailer or selling it? If keeping it, there are fewer issues to deal with.
As we all know, vehicle regulations, registration, licensing, insurance, etc. are state specific. At worst case, especially as you travel, get it registered in a lenient state. A range of ideas have already been offered up, spanning letter of the law to rogue; you need to decide where you want to stand on that scale.
You'll find a way through this.
Scott check the laws in MI but also check with the highway patrol there. In California and some other states when you have a Salvage title they allow you to fix it up and then take it to the HP and have it inspected for road worthlessness. If they pass it then you can get a title with their approval and its free. My son does it here all the time with cars and trailers. :)
Just find somebody that wants to use it as a tiny house on a lot somewhere and doesn't care that it can't be on the road anymore. :)
You can probably sell it to a Canadian without doing anything further. We don't know what vehicle titles are. Bill of sale with the vendor name and address plus serial number and description of the trailer should get you buyer a registration anywhere in Canada. He's going to have to pay GST when it crosses the border but that should be all - thank you very much Brian Mulroney and Ronald Reagan for NAFTA. This link (https://ca.outdoorsy.com/neveridle/import-rv-trailer-canada)has some information but there's a typo in the 2nd paragraph referring to trailer imports - the wording in the link makes it sound like the trailer must be over 10,000# but in fact the requirement is for them to be under that weight.
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on July 05, 2019, 02:40:38 PM
Just find somebody that wants to use it as a tiny house on a lot somewhere and doesn't care that it can't be on the road anymore. :)
That is probably the most practical way to dispose of it, simply sell it to someone who is going to park it on a lot and has no intention of moving it down the road. I sold a travel trailer that had a title (thirty years ago) to a person that was going to park it on his lake lot permanently. He took the wheels off and sold them, and put it on blocks.
Quote from: bobofthenorth on July 05, 2019, 03:41:58 PM
You can probably sell it to a Canadian without doing anything further. We don't know what vehicle titles are. Bill of sale with the vendor name and address plus serial number and description of the trailer should get you buyer a registration anywhere in Canada. He's going to have to pay GST when it crosses the border but that should be all - thank you very much Brian Mulroney and Ronald Reagan for NAFTA. This link (https://ca.outdoorsy.com/neveridle/import-rv-trailer-canada)has some information but there's a typo in the 2nd paragraph referring to trailer imports - the wording in the link makes it sound like the trailer must be over 10,000# but in fact the requirement is for them to be under that weight.
Nice idea 'cept for one thing. when you "export" a vehicle out of the USA, you are "supposed" to check in with US customs on the way out and have previously forwarded the title and the bill of sale a minimum of 72 hours before crossing.
There is now further declaration paperwork that the seller has to fill out and forward. Not too sure what it is as I have not imported anything from the US since the change. It is getting more stringent. The first one I imported from the US was during a wicked snowstorm. Seems I missed the reporting station altogether. Funny how things happen sometimes.
Quote from: Jim Eh. on July 06, 2019, 04:37:20 PM
Nice idea 'cept for one thing. when you "export" a vehicle out of the USA, you are "supposed" to check in with US customs on the way out and have previously forwarded the title and the bill of sale a minimum of 72 hours before crossing.
Good point and I had forgotten about that bit of bureaucratic nonsense. However it is after all a trailer. The following is just a story and I am in no way recommending breaking any (stupid) laws. I have purchased plates for a trailer by showing up at the DMV with a bill of sale and a cheque. Then I drove 2000 miles, hung the plates on the trailer and drove home. That's just a story - not advice - but its a true story.
Sorry for the delay in response. These are all actually very creative suggestions. The whole re vin it idea could work but they do investigate to be sure you have a receipt for another trailer frame etc. that being said, it wouldn't be hard to do.
But alas, a twist of fate...I'll report more on this once it's all over...but it likely will go in my favor and it's a legal matter. When it's all settled, this may actually be a completely different story. Stand by.
I have a foot or so of a trailer frame with a home stamped VIN number on it and a CA title to go with it. Very old.
Quote from: bobofthenorth on July 05, 2019, 03:41:58 PM
You can probably sell it to a Canadian without doing anything further. He's going to have to pay GST when it crosses the border but that should be all - thank you very much Brian Mulroney and Ronald Reagan for NAFTA.
Wasn't Ronny Reagan, It was
Clinton who signed NAFTA into law on December 8, 1993 :)
Canada-US free trade got going with Ron and Brian in 1988.
Whether you wanted to or not, hard to forget Ron and Brian belting out "when Irish Eyes are smiling" early in their relationship...
Precursor to the NAFTA, which added Mexico during 1993, effective Jan 1 1994.
And now it's awkwardly titled USMCA, which doesn't readily become a "word"
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Agreed but the statement was NAFTA :) which wasn't signed until later by other's. :)
The subjugation began with Brian and Ron. Once you are under oppression, the future adjustments are moot.
NAFTA became an easier thing to say than "free trade"
Forgive BotN on the details, he is getting old...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
NAFTA actually was Ratified in 1993 after Bush 43 and Clinton made changes and started calling it NAFTA and USMCA has not yet been Ratified.
:-X
There's 2 minutes gone out of my life forever. Canada/US free trade started under Mulroney & Reagan. That's a fact. If you don't like it I don't care. Slick Willy wouldn't have had anything to sign if it wasn't for the work of the two real leaders.
Ok nuff said....whats the best tire to buy?
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 08, 2019, 05:55:11 PM
Ok nuff said....whats the best tire to buy?
The round ones...
Anything to stop you removing the wheels, suspension and front towing frame and mounting the rest on a flat bed car trailer?
Sorry if that's a silly idea but I don't know the ins-and-outs of US vehicle registration. In the UK trailers and caravans don't have to be road-registered at all, only the towing vehicle
Jeremy
Hi Scott. Long time brother :)
Can you have a REBUILT title issued for the trailer? We have a car that was titled as salvage (it was totaled in an accident) and rebuilt by the person we bought it from and now has a rebuilt title. It cost standard price for the car title and just had to have it inspected that it was operable.
I'd be surprised if you couldn't get a rebuild title for it. It just signifies to a future buyer that the vehicle at one point has been totaled and alerts the insurance company that a payout has already been made on the vehicle and it has little to no worth. (We cannot get full coverage on the rebuilt car)
Anyways - If you want me to buy it from you for a dollar, get it titled up in WA state and then sell it back to you for 2$ I'd be willing to make a 100% profit on the initial investment.
-Sean
Quote from: bobofthenorth on July 08, 2019, 05:49:25 PM
There's 2 minutes gone out of my life forever. Canada/US free trade started under Mulroney & Reagan. That's a fact. If you don't like it I don't care. Slick Willy wouldn't have had anything to sign if it wasn't for the work of the two real leaders.
Nor would Donald Hump were it not for the work of his predecessor, in many theaters.
file:///storage/emulated/0/Download/200.webp
Hi team,
Sean, no. Scrap title and salvage title are different in Michigan. Scrap title is final. Absolutely no way to get around it legally.
That being said, here's what has transpired and it's an interesting story:
The original owner of this camper crashed it. It looks to me like he jackknifed it and tagged a guardrail.
Damaged was pretty extensive but no frame or structure damage per se. State Farm assessed it and gave it a scrap title. It went to auction on copart and a used car dealer with a salvage/recycler license bought it.
This is where he messed up. First, he brought it home to his residence. He's not supposed to do that here in Michigan. If a vehicle has a scrap title he's supposed to take it to his dealer yard and part it out from there.
He then put up a Craigslist ad for the trailer asking $1400 for it saying it had a salvage title (second mistake and a lie).
I contacted him, and went to see the trailer. It was a 2015 Forest River hybrid trailer and it was the sapphire edition which is their top notch upgraded unit. I knew I could refurb it and use it. I offered him $1300, and he took it. I towed the trailer home and began working on fixing it up last summer. I texted the former owner photos of my progress and he was amazed and encouraged me. He also said I could go to the Secretary of State and obtain a form to retitle the camper. Also another lie.
After spending $4000 on parts and who knows how many labor hours, I had fixed it up and made it quite nice. I go to SOS with a $180 surety bond to obtain a title and to my chagrin we can't title it. Ever. Period.
I'm very disappointed at this point. Completely deflated and out $5300 and have a 5500lb paper weight. I'm laying in the hammock coming up with a way to tell my wife when I get a phone call from Lansing (our capital).
I answer and the guy on the other end is an agent with investigative services and regulatory affairs for the state of Michigan's department of motor vehicles. He asks me a bunch of questions about the trailer, who sold it to me, how much I paid etc.
Thankfully I had all the texts from last year between the seller and myself as well as his phone number and address. I send all of this info to the Agent who promises to call me back.
Within an hour I receive an email from said agent informing me that he has determined the man who sold me the trailer indeed was a dealer, had a recycler/salvage endorsement and apparently he had broken the law selling the trailer to me. The agent said he would be proceeding charging the dealer with fraud and several transaction violations. It is illegal for a recycler dealer to sell any scrap titled vehicle to anyone. He can buy it at auction and then he has to part it out and shred it. He cannot let anyone take it on the road. It must be trailered.
Agent asked me to put together my receipts for repair, an estimate of my labor hours and the initial purchase price of the unit. My wife thankfully kept every single receipt so we spent literally an entire day creating a spreadsheet with all the info and between my labor and money out, we came up with $8000.
The state of Michigan informed the dealer that he was required to take the trailer back and cut me a check for $8000. He is obliging since he doesn't want to lose his licenses and the transaction takes place on Thursday or latest Monday next week. Agents will be handling the transaction and transfer of trailer to him and check to me.
So, I'm out the trailer but I'm happy to have a check that covers my time and money into it. He's learned a valuable lesson as have I, and I'll avoid scrap titles at all costs now.
At the very beginning of this thread I posted photos after I repaired the trailer. Here are before photos to give you an idea of what I put into it:
Golly gee whiz, there IS a Santa Claus and the government does come through once in a while!
Once in a while, the good guys come out on top.
Sure is nice when the system works.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Wow, Michigan is sure anal about that stuff. And yet, no annual vehicle inspections. Go figure.