Still working trying to rehab an older generator that was pulled out of a bus conversion. Not sure what I'll do with it once it's running. The Kohler parts I set aside since they are the same as what's in our bus. The Continental is just a project left over from winter that I want to get out of the way.
I've separated the Kohler from the Continental, installed a tune-up kit, changed fluids, rebuilt carb and fuel pump, and then put it all together to see if it would run.
The engine was originally started by use of the generator head, but since they are separated at the moment I've been trying to start it with the hand crank. I definitely have spark, and fuel is flowing. Almost got it to fire once, and only once., Just little puff of exhaust.
Then I ran into a problem - the engine started to get stuck when turning it over. It would turn 180 degrees and catch. If I pushed it backwards just a bit I was able to turn it over again. Now it will go 180 degrees and stop dead in its tracks, as if something inside is hitting the block. I can turn it back the other direction 180 degrees, and same thing.
I'm looking for a bit of advice where to start looking for the problem. I've pulled the inspection cover on the valve lifters and see nothing in there out of place. Could it be something on the bottom end? Maybe the crank gear? Broken ring?
I've never really torn into a flathead before, so I didn't want to just randomly start tearing things apart until I had some idea which way to go.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Remove the spark plugs and see if turns over is a good starting place
I did that when I first got the engine. It did turn over. Then the problem started where it would occasionally 'catch' while turning over. Now it catches every time at 180 degrees. I can go backwards 180 degrees and it catches again. Something is definitely getting hung up inside, but I can't tell from where.
Seems like something came loose inside - maybe a bolt worked loose, maybe a tooth on a gear, who knows?
I was hoping that perhaps there are some common failure points on these old Contentals Y112 engines which would give me a place to start.
Timing over advanced? Plug wires mixed up?
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 04, 2019, 02:22:47 PM
Timing over advanced? Plug wires mixed up?
It's not firing problem that's I'm talking about. There is something physically catching/hitting inside the engine which only allows it to turn 180 degrees. Once it hits whatever is hitting, I can only turn it back the other way 180 degrees until it hits again.
I've got no idea what happened. The engine hasn't fired up since I've had it, so whatever happened did so while I was cranking it over with the hand crank.
Well then tear it apart and report back. We'll wait. Start with the head. Should take 5 minutes with an air wrench.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 04, 2019, 02:39:17 PM
Well then tear it apart and report back. We'll wait. Start with the head. Should take 5 minutes with an air wrench.
Yeah - I could have done that already. Kind of was hoping someone had run into something similar and could at least give me a starting point.
Not much under the head in a flathead engine, so I'm guessing it's not there. Perhaps something in the crank gear came loose or broke, or perhaps something on the bottom end.
Guess it's going to have to come apart...
First the head. Did you drop something in the plug hole? Then pan and timing cover. Those old head gaskets can be reinstalled and retorqued if they are a metal sandwich design. Like a flat head lawn mower.
You are probably going to find a nut or bolt laying on one piston,, if you force it you can break the piston.>>>Dan
Get or borrow a borescope to look in the spark plug hole.
I'll go one easier...
Spark plugs?
Wrong ones go too deep...
Like luvrbus suggested, remove plugs and see if it turns...
Whatever got touched is first on the list for the cause, nothing more complicated until they get proven...
Common knowledge on these engines will be resting in peace with a lot of the Detroit knowledge...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Plugs were out on the last attempt, so they weren't the problem. I'll start with the scope and then got from there.
Scope??? Don't waste the time. Take it apart. Probably needs rings and valve job anyway. You can use the experience.
This reminds me of many moons ago most of us had a threaded "plug" that we would screw into the plug hole until it bottomed against a shoulder.. Then turn the engine by hand until the piston contacted the plug (gently),, make an index mark on the bell housing and a corresponding mark on the flywheel.. Then reverse the turn and rotate until the piston touched the plug again,, make another mark on the flywheel.. Exactly half way between the flywheel marks was the TDC
for that engine, and it could be used to set the valves,, set the timing advance and several other functions..>>>Dan
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 04, 2019, 05:30:53 PM
Scope??? Don't waste the time. Take it apart. Probably needs rings and valve job anyway. You can use the experience.
Yeah, but if there is something lose on top of the pistons it would be an easy solution. I'd love to get the engine to fire and run for a minute so I can evaluate it before tearing things apart.
Rotten smelling black and blue smoke. But that will tell you nothing about sludge, wear in cylinder bore, bearing or cam condition, or whether it is due a valve job. Trying to start an old engine like that that has been sitting for so long will just add more score marks to bearings and crank. Rusted dry camshaft lobes, etc.
Common sense seems to dictate figuring out the metal contacting before firing it up as that certainly is not going to help.
Quote from: windtrader on July 04, 2019, 06:47:34 PM
Common sense seems to dictate figuring out the metal contacting before firing it up as that certainly is not going to help.
Yup - no way to try to fire it till that's figured out. Can't even get it to turn over a full rotation right now. It did turn over when I first got it, so this is confusing. I've done nothing that should have caused this, as I even blew all the crud from around the spark plugs before I pulled them. Almost seems like something gave way inside the engine, but that seems unlikely. Confusing...
Broken parts that held in place... time passes, engine dries out... you mess with it...
Broken bits finally separate and obstruct.
It wasn't running when you got it... reason for non-running will end up being your broken bits when you find them.
Gary better being sending you a Christmas card for all this Google ad revenue!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
🙄
Google: Continental f head engine information
Wiki general info, plus there is a pdf of an engine manual at another site on same page.
You can get a loaner borescope from places like Autozone. They require a deposit, then you get it all back when you return it. It would cost nothing to peek inside. 8)
If you are afraid to pull the head, you can buy a borescope from Harbor Freight that works well. I've used mine a couple times already in the three years I've had it and is is a handy tool to have. Discount coupons now may make it cheaper.
https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=inspection%20camera
I've got a scope which works in conjunction with my smartphone - I've used it lots in the past to explore hidden spaces in the bus. Great help to inspect plumbing behind walls, etc. First time I used it was to figure out what was wrong with my neutral start safety switches, and have had lots of chances to use it since then.
When I looked into the spark plug holes this morning, all I can see are the valve faces. Apparently there is not a straight shot from the plug holes to the cylinders in this engine, so off comes the head. With this configuration, it wouldn't take much to have a broken plug part sitting on the ledge near the valves for years, until I came along and tilted the engine sideways on the engine stand to install the fuel pump. Whatever was laying loose on the ledge would then be on top of the piston. We'll see soon.
If that doesn't uncover any obvious problems, I'll probably pull the cover on the crank gears next. Would not take much in there to block the works since there is no much extra space around the gears.
Is it a magneto type firing or points
Not knowing where you been working on what parts could you have a bolt to long in the wrong place
Finally got around to checking into this project further. Pulled the head today and found why the engine can't be cranked all the way over...
Enough debris on top of the cylinders and valves to cause about 3/8" of blockage. Some of the carbon had turned into little pieces of diamond wannabees. All in all, guess it could have been much worse.
Once I get the top end cleaned up the only obstacle left is getting the flywheel pulled so I can install a ring gear on it and then install a starter. Got the bolts all out, but the flywheel doesn't seem inclined to come free.
Not sure how hard one has to smack the flywheel with a sledge to break it free...
Those are tough little engines the Lincoln 200 amp Pipe line welder used those for years hand crank too,we would spray water in the carb every month or so to keep the carbon build up out.When you walked by one with a lot of blow by coming from the crank case you sprayed water in the carb for few minutes because the carbon build up would increase the compression ratio and they would get nasty lol water was free back then
Back in the 50"s they would "de-coke" aircraft engines with ground up walnut shells. Rotated the engine so both the intake and exhaust valves were open, then blasted the walnut shells through. Did a great job of de-coking the engine. The leaded gasoline sure created lots of carbon buildup on the valves! With the gasoline additives we have now we don't have that problem.
Finally got the engine to spit fire...
First attempt was nothing but a loud backfire and flames out the muffler. Rotated the distributor shaft 180 degrees and corrected the order of the ignition wires to the plugs.
Lots of hand cranking later, and lots of fiddling with the carburetor, and now I can get it to run for 10-15 seconds on its own if I continue to futz with the throttle.
Lots of flaming grass seeds shooting out the exhaust - I suspect some little mouse is going to be out looking for his winter food at some point very disappointingly.
Next part of the project is a starter. Got a used one on its way, and once I see that it meets the flywheel where I hope it does and then I'll take the flywheel to a machine shop and have a ring gear fitted (doesn't currently have one.)
Probably explains where the stuff in the cylinder came from. You might try using a squirt bottle to spray gas into the carb throat to keep it running for awhile. Something sounds clogged in the carb. Fuel inlet, or jets. Give that a good going through and you should be able to get it to run. Does it use an old cast iron updraft carb? You can replace that with a side draft motorcycle carb and get good results.
Jim
It will be rewarding to get that ole' jewel running decent... :^
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 24, 2020, 09:58:29 AM
Probably explains where the stuff in the cylinder came from. You might try using a squirt bottle to spray gas into the carb throat to keep it running for awhile. Something sounds clogged in the carb. Fuel inlet, or jets. Give that a good going through and you should be able to get it to run. Does it use an old cast iron updraft carb? You can replace that with a side draft motorcycle carb and get good results.
Jim
The carb is an updraft. I did a rebuild on it last year, but it seems to drip fuel from the throat. I'm guess that either the float valve is not seating or is set incorrectly causing the float to overfill.
I got the engine to run about 15 seconds just now. Can't really go any further since the radiator is not connected. That's my next project - getting hoses to attach the radiator and electric fan.
Eventually I want to get a conversion kit for it so I can run the engine off bottled propane. My ultimate goal is to mount a new generator head to it and use it as a back up for the house, But, for now I'll be happy just to see it run.
Love the sound of the old flat head engines.
Short video of it running. Radiator hoses are due tomorrow, and once the radiator is attached I hope to do a tune up and run it a bit longer.
https://youtu.be/x5bnymtxQFg
Not a Detroit Diesel 8V71, but it's been fun nonetheless.
Sounds pretty good. Dripping usually means the float valve isn't closing or is set too high. A little tricky to get the float level right and it'll be different whether you are using gravity feed or a fuel pump.
Jim